Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, having the pleasure to be joined today by Kate Isaacs scholar, teacher, and strategy advisor who designs organizations and stakeholder partnerships for people and places to thrive. Kate draws on design thinking, system dynamics, and developmental psychology to help leaders create conditions for collective intelligence, agile performance, and transformative change. Kate is a Senior Lecturer at the MIT Sloan where I had the pleasure to take her course on nimble organizations. Her work on Nimble Leadership was actually selected for publication in HBR at 100: The Most Influential and Innovative Articles from Harvard Business Review’s First Century! Conrgats! Kate also consults with organizations in all sectors on strategy and culture change, and she specializes in designing peer-based learning experiences and facilitating multi-stakeholder collaborations. Kate is a frequent author on topics of leadership, innovation, systems change, multi-stakeholder collaboration, and corporate sustainability for publications including the Harvard Business Review, the Sloan Management Review!
Kate, It is so great to see you again and have you with me today!
Kate Isaacs: Great to be here. Thanks for inviting me on.
Naji Gehchan: Your class is still living in my head with the different great frameworks to make us better as teams, some I applied already! But before we dig into your research work on organizations, can you tell us more about your personal story and how you became this incredible thought leader, thinker, and change maker?
Kate Isaacs: Well, thank you for the kind words. I am happy to share a little bit about my journey. I am really driven by a passion for Connecting people to who they are and their deeper purpose and, and to each other and to living and expressing that deeper purpose, I grew up, um, all over the country, our family moved around a lot and I was always struck by the fact that.
The world is such a beautiful place and human beings are capable of such extraordinary creativity and beauty and we are also capable of such destruction and evil and I saw those two things happening for whatever reason I was just always very aware of our capacities for beauty and good and evil and ugliness and destruction.
And it was really hard for me to hold those two things simultaneously. Um, it was created a lot of tension for me as a child where I’d be out, um, exploring the world. I love nature and suddenly I couldn’t walk on my front lawn because it had been sprayed with chemicals. And they said, keep off the lawn.
And, um, there was all sorts of. trash in the woods where I like to walk and things like that just got me thinking at an early age about, um, who are people and how is it that we’re capable of such different expressions. And furthermore, then as I grew up and got older and, um, I was studying biology, um, because as I said, I was interested in nature and the natural world.
I thought I would be a forest ecologist or a marine biologist. Or something like that. Um, and, and as I went along in my career in education, I, I was more and more interested in, in human beings and how do we function and how do I help, um, help enable people to connect with the part of us that is capable of Capable of such extraordinary things and such creativity.
So I became a social psychologist and work with, with leaders and organizations, and just as if, um, just like you, if you work with an individual or work with myself, starting with myself and. Change my paradigm or my ability to express my purpose and clear some of the cobwebs out internally so I can, um, do more of what I feel I’m here to do on the planet in my lifetime.
Um, that’s like a ripple effect that goes out from each individual and enables them to design and lead better teams and design and lead better organizations and design and lead better societies. So that’s really what motivates me. It,
Naji Gehchan: I can’t, but ask you how, like this question you asked in the beginning, I really got off every single morning, unfortunately, with the craziness and horror happening in the world, acts of hate.
And then you have tremendous act of love and beauty. I constantly ask myself this, like how, so did you figure it out with your work or how can we at least impact our small environments to make it? Better and be only from one side of the equation. I’m interested to learn since this was really what drove you to where you are today.
Kate Isaacs: Well, I, I think I’ve learned a lot of tools along the way, uh, for how to connect people or help people connect with that inside them. And all of us that is capable of, of incredible. Creative things. And I would say, first of all, that we all have that. We all have that inside ourselves. And moment by moment, we’re always making choices to align with that part of ourselves.
I would call it the bigger self or the bigger self. You know, depending on on your belief systems. Um, some people are very spiritual about it. Some people aren’t. But, um, I think in all of us, we all know that we’re capable of those acts of compassion, generosity, beauty, creativity, where we’re operating at our best.
And every single human being has that as our birthright. And so, um, one of There are many ways to get there, but one of the things that I think works the fastest is to simply practice a spirit of appreciation and gratitude for what’s right about myself, about others, about what’s right in the world. Um, and there’ve, there’ve been a lot of studies on, you know, monks who practice compassion and, and their brain, what happens to their brains when we, when we practice the, um, active compassion and gratitude.
And it, it literally changes our neural networks and our wiring, um, in our brains and, and in our bodies. And so we, I love there’s, um, a kind of fad out there, um, that some. Talking about the idea of glimpses. So everyone’s talked about triggers and things that trigger us, and that’s common in our parlance now.
And now there’s a, there’s a new thing about glimmers or glimpses, um, and those are the things that, um, in our lives on a day to day basis that are really working well, where something comes together and it’s happening and we experience a sense of joy, pleasure, ecstasy, um, calm, peace, relaxation, and Focusing on those things and what enables us to experience those things, whether it’s how we design our lives or our mental attitudes or the care that we take with our relationships, um, you know, in our lives.
What are the things that feed into those glimmers and glimpses and how can we expand those experiences so that we’re, we’re living more and coming more and more from that place. And those, those. Experiences.
Naji Gehchan: Those are great, actionable tips. We can we can do. And you talked in the beginning about the deeper purpose.
I remember also in your class, you talk about the purpose with big P for for us personally and organization. Um, what is it if you can, like, tell us a little bit how to get to this purpose? And then as leaders and organizations, how can we make this really live every single day? Despite what’s happening, not only in the work, but also in the work itself and operationally every day.
Kate Isaacs: Well, the first thing I would say is, is take a little time, whatever time you have, it could be just 10 minutes. Once a month, we’re all busy and have a lot on our plates, but carve out a little bit of time to think about what is it that gets you up in the morning? Why do I get out of bed and go to work?
Good, really good question is what’s the contribution that I want to make? Um, some of those questions. Need our attention. And when we’re too busy just running around and doing the things that we do, and we don’t allow any time. Most of us don’t allow much time for that kind of reflection. Um, but you people are, you can be surprised how little it takes just 10 minutes to journal and get off your screen for a moment and get out a piece of paper and just journal about it, about some of those questions.
Um, and, and then. See if you can get it down into a single statement and put a period at the end and, and see if that fits. And I know I’ve done this and over time that purpose statement has changed and morphed and transitioned as I’ve gone along. And it’s, it’s really a guiding North Star for, for me and all of us.
really unique. It’s like a fingerprint. Um, we all have a unique purpose and signature that’s a product of our own unique configuration of our passions, our capacities and talents, how we grew up. It’s totally different for each of us.
Naji Gehchan: And the power of when you connect your personal purpose to what you do every single day, and the work you do, and then the organization is just massive.
And you literally manage to make things move forward for the, for the work, for the society. If I go now into more nimble organizations, something you’ve worked on, you’re an expert on, um, and Cultivating nimble organizations. Can you first tell us a little bit more? What does nimble mean?
Kate Isaacs: The idea of nimble is about being responsive to the world and being able to, as one organization that we studied in depth, WL Gore says, to organize around opportunities so that if you’re nimble, you are You, you’re doing your sense making into the world.
That’s another thing we talk a lot about at MIT, uh, concept that’s been really popularized by my colleague, Debra Ancona. So you’ve got your feelers out. You’re looking out to the world and sensing what’s going on, what’s changing, and you’re making sense of that in a way that is aligned with your organization’s purpose.
Also, it’s values. Values are qualities of character that guide how you do things. Purpose is why you’re why, as Simon Sinek says, values are equally important, um, because they, they tell you how to make the decisions, especially under pressure. So if you’re nimble, you’re making, you’re out there, you’re making sense of what’s going on in the world.
You’re bringing that information in your. Using your purpose, your values, your strategic priorities to then decide how are we going to respond to changing markets, technologies, trends, political trends, things are moving very fast. And it’s, um, often looks like a foggy road out there when you’re a leader looking to figure out how to move forward.
Um, but if you’re doing that sensemaking and some of the other things we talk about around combination of. Visioning also and executing and innovating and also relating. That’s another really key leadership capacity. You and I are relating right now. We’re having a conversation. You really need to have all of those capabilities in your organization, but the sense making and relating are often.
Underappreciated as leadership capabilities. Usually when we think about leadership, we think about the heroic leader, the person who’s visioning and inventing, um, the sense making and relating are so important, especially these days when we’re in a stakeholder world, and so many people are looking to organizations around our can we trust them?
Are they being transparent? Are they leading from values? Um, And so being able to, to do that external and internal dance as I’m talking about, um, and use your purpose values to, um, orient how you’re going to respond to your sense making that you’re doing is, is really key and we see that in nimble organizations.
They return again and again to those purpose values. Um, as guiding North stars for how they do respond.
Naji Gehchan: So I love this and it’s and you’re going correct me if I’m wrong, I think you’re going beyond just this idea of agility and innovation and you’re touching more aspects of the purpose, the social responsibility of the organization.
So do you feel this is nimble organization is really for all type of organization? Or is there pieces where, like, you know, sometimes we think of agile as you have, like, hierarchical structures and then people kind of co working, brainstorming, bringing innovation. Is it that or is it like even broader when you think about Nimble and more as a concept to improve the society as a whole versus just profits?
Kate Isaacs: Well, we, we studied organizations that are high innovation organizations. So I’ll caveat what I’m saying around just to say that, um, so Nimble is about being adaptive and responsive and, and being able to change. At the same time, um, you do need to be able to execute with consistency and regularity and predictability.
So, um, that is also really important and organizations need to be able to do both. Um, there’s this idea of ambidexterity. So, uh, I would say though, that there are the, some of the principles of Nimble are applicable in both kinds of contexts, whether you’re in an industry that’s. Well, all industries are changing, but, but if you’re part of the business is, you know, highly regulated, um, you know, and you’re doing the same kind of task over and over and over, you need to do exactly the same thing.
Um, the principles are still applicable and that fundamentally nimble is about. Uh, pushing decision making authority down as far as you can in the organization and giving people autonomy to make as many decisions as they can in line with how the organization is expecting to carry out its strategy strategic priorities.
So in order to do that. In order to free people up and give people more autonomy to do the business of the organization, there have to be some guardrails in place. Now, command and control bureaucracies give people big binders of rules or the, you know, or people are expected to just do what the leadership says.
That takes away people’s autonomy. But if you, but you still need to have some guiding guard rails in whatever context you’re in. So what do you replace the big thick binder with or the command and control from the CEO down? Well, you replace that with, um, in some parts, purpose and values and, and expected behavior.
you also replace it with, um, that, that’s, that’s part of what replaces the thick binders. If you tell people, this is what we stand for as an organization, we expect you to behave in line with these values and purpose in, in our strategic priorities. And if everybody understands that, you have a better chance at having people.
Who are autonomous, make decisions in line with what the organization wants. The other thing is that, um, nimble or organizations, if you assume that people are autonomous, you assume that they can make their own decisions. And so you can’t just tell them, um, what to do. You have to, in a sense, get them on board and engage them, enroll them in your vision.
If you’re the CEO or the senior leader. So there’s an element of. Persuasion and assuming that you have to get people’s buy in one way or the other. So a lot of leaders and nimble organizations spend a lot of time explaining why we’re making this decision. You know, senior leaders still have to make decisions for the on behalf of the organization.
We’re going into this market or we’re shutting down this plant. So those are decisions that have to be made. It’s not a democracy here. Um, and they tend to explain why. Because people want to know. And, um, there’s just a lot more transparency, listening. Um, and I think those principles are applicable, um, no matter what kind of business that you’re in.
Sure.
Naji Gehchan: And, you know, the majority of my audience is in healthcare. So I, what you were saying, highly regulated. certainly part of what we do, but also the things would apply for, for sure. Uh, so when you’re thinking about those, you talked about cultures, how senior leaders, uh, we talk about it. I’m interested to learn more from you.
How do you think about culture at the corporate level, for example, as an organization and also the. cultures within the teams and organization. I’m sure you’ve seen differences. Is there a way to say like, this is an overarching culture, or do you still see subcultures that can be actually not really what the organization is putting out as values and cultures for itself?
Kate Isaacs: I think you’re, you’re absolutely put your finger on it in terms of there are many subcultures and organizations all over the place. Culture is not a homogenous thing at all. At the same time, they’re off. There is a dominant culture in the organization that, um. You can, you can usually pick up, um, you can usually pick up and you can actually diagnose it.
You can measure culture in different ways and, um, depending on who is leading a particular unit or function or team, that individual, it’s the ripple effect of. Of, of an individual’s fingerprint or footprint, if you will, on a, on a team or a unit, whoever they are as an individual will influence the, the dynamic of the whole collective and, and how they lead meetings, how inclusive they are, um, whether they’re more directive or, um, solicit more input before making a decision, um, those, everybody’s very different.
And so the. different cultures will form around different folks who are leading different areas of the organization. And there is still usually a dominant, pretty dominant culture, those subcultures sit in inside of. I’m curious what’s behind the question.
Naji Gehchan: Well, there is, because I think we discussed this also in the class, things, you know, written on the wall and then in the water.
And, you know, I feel like there is more and more organization now looking into. Ensuring whatever culture or purpose, uh, are really kind of within what we’re looking at as a society these days, right, like incorporating social impact, incorporating really why we wake up every morning. Uh, and I’m wondering, like, is this sufficient and what is the roles actually of different leaders within this company and each one of us as a leader on the subcultures we actually create, even sometimes without realizing.
So this is, this is why I was asking it.
Kate Isaacs: I love this territory and it gets to something I’ve been thinking a lot about lately, which is an organization can articulate its purpose, its values, and, and, and have a culture that may or may not be representing that. Hopefully it does. And you still have all of the individuals who have their own individual purpose and values and.
So it’s what we’re not trying to do is to get everyone to say that the organization’s purpose and values are my own as an individual. Um, what, what this is really about is if you think about the organization as like a, uh, an attractor magnetic. Putting out a, a tractor beam or, uh, maybe that’s not such a good analogy because we don’t want to think of ourselves as aliens being teleported up.
But, but like, uh, putting out a magnetic field or, you know, a, a lamp in the darkness, if you will, and the organization broadcasts. These are the values, the purpose we stand for. Um, Leaders back that up with their actions. Um, the incentives are aligned, et cetera. And then what happens is, is people are drawn to that because they feel a resonance.
Um, they feel a resonance with that we’re going to what that organization stands for and what they individually stand for. So it’s, it’s a resonance thing, um, that happens. And that’s why companies with. That stand for something beyond just profits and really are making a positive contribution in the world have an edge on hiring top talent because of that resonance phenomenon and people want to work for a place that is allows them to align their personal sense of meaning and purpose with with something that’s bigger than themselves.
Naji Gehchan: I love this resonance. Phenomenon. I love it. Thanks for sharing this. I’m gonna now move into a section where I will give you a word and I would love your reaction to it. The first one is leadership.
Kate Isaacs: You want me to just react to the idea of leadership? Yep.
What I’m thinking about is an exercise I did with my students in a class I teach called discovering and developing your leadership signature. And I gave them a sheet of many, many different definitions of leadership. Some was about influencing people. Some was about developing people. Some was, some of the definitions were about producing outcomes.
I don’t think there’s any single definition of leadership that, I would say this is it. I think like many things we have to, I define what that is for ourselves. I, for myself, leadership is about inspiring and others. To live from their own purpose and values and, and doing something collectively to change the future in alignment with what we believe is possible.
That’s for me, what inspires me about leadership and it’s about change and it’s about other people and it’s about doing something bigger than myself for others and with others.
What about
Naji Gehchan: polarities?
Kate Isaacs: Oh, one of my favorite topics, uh, and I
Naji Gehchan: love the during class, the student of, uh, ,
Kate Isaacs: I’m a, a, a student of the DA Jing, which I think is the authoritative manual of polarities. It is a book of opposites, and I think if anyone who. Anyone who really wants to understand polarities could take a deep dive into the Dao De Jing, um, several thousand years old commentary on, on polarities.
They’re, uh, found everywhere in the world, in our bodies, in nature, in organizations. And they’re absolutely the, the creative tension of life and, and what makes life interesting. One of the most fundamental polarities is our breath. We breathe in and we breathe out many, many, many times a day. And we have to do both of those things in order to have a healthy functioning body and mind.
So. You need both of these ends of poles, um, and it helps to know that they exist and that you can get stuck in one side or the other and, and it helps to know some tricks to get unstuck. And, and start to see, uh, what my, uh, friend and mentor and colleague and Indigenous, um, elder in Canada, John Rice, calls two eyed seeing, so that you can begin to see the other side of the polarity and the validity of it, and, and get disembedded from an over identified With one side or the other, and then you’re in a real position to lead, um, because you can see, recognize and respect the truth of both ends of the pole and the people who represent the voices on either end of the pole.
If you’re talking about an organization, then you’re in a different position to help make, uh. the miracle happen in the middle, if you will.
Naji Gehchan: I love it. And I really enjoyed when you talk and thought that’s about polarities. Can I double click with maybe a tangent to this when you’re saying so the leader’s role or the power and the magic happens when you see those two polarities for you to be able to take a decision.
There is more and more ideas about should you take sides when it’s. Polarities really kind of splitting the word as we’re saying like there’s a lot of polarities today’s in the word that are social issues. How do you think about this for leaders is our role to see those polarities and ensure people can speak up.
They exist and we understand them. Are you one who would advocate we need to take a stand, take a side? How do you think about all this in our current world?
Kate Isaacs: Well, given what I just said, you probably could predict that I won’t say that you need to take a side. Because as soon as you quote, take a side, you’re missing all kinds of information and intelligence that the other side can provide. And So one of the things I have studied, I think I mentioned this in class, is the abortion debate, and I studied a dialogue where six women, um, spent five years in secret conversation because the, at the time, the um, Topic was so highly charged as it is again today that they couldn’t meet publicly.
So for five years they met And, and talked about this and I think it’s a, it’s a hopeful story because they didn’t ever see eye to eye on the issue itself. They still were very firm in their beliefs that their point of view was the correct one. But what they realized is that they could still have a respectful relationship and a civil dialogue, even though they had very different beliefs.
And they also realized that it was very interesting to talk with people on the other side, and to really understand where they were coming from, even if they didn’t agree with them. Because they it taught them so much as they said about their own beliefs and why they believed what they believed and, you know, fast, fast forward that was That was back in, uh, I have to recall the exact date, close to 20 years ago that that dialogue was happening.
But fast forward today, there’s an organization called Braver Angels, which is, um, hosting a lot of quote, red, blue dialogues so that they can create a space for people to just simply hear what the other I Folks on the other side of the political divide believe and why and they hosted some workshops around abortion in Kentucky, of all places very politically mixed environment.
I mean, of all places meaning it wasn’t like a. It was a very politically mixed environment is what I mean, and they were able to reframe the debate away from. having people argue about whether their point of view was right or wrong into what’s the problem that we’re trying to solve here. And what everybody could agree on was that no woman wants to have an abortion.
No woman willingly wants to have that happen in her life. And so what they could all agree on was that they all wanted to help prevent unwanted pregnancies. They wanted to help women prevent that. From happening. And so what could they do to help women prevent unwanted pregnancies? Well, they agreed on two moves.
One is around, um, sex education in Kentucky schools. And the other was around long lasting contraception. And this was a group of conservatives and liberals, reds and blues who came together and agreed on that. So it’s just an example of how the Reframing the problem that you’re trying to solve allows you to, you know, maybe not totally let go of your beliefs around a particular issue, but still lets you move forward in a productive way because you’ve identified something in the middle, that common ground that you can work on together.
Naji Gehchan: I love it, Kate, and I’m just such a big believer in this. We did actually end up doing healthy conversations and healthy debates with my classmates during MIT, during these tough moments. And this was the whole idea, where we can bring our differences and actually have healthy conversations for us to move forward as a society and as leaders.
I love your example. The third word is storytelling. Mmm.
Kate Isaacs: I come from a long line of Irish storytellers, so storytelling is, is in my blood and I, I love to tell stories and have, actually teach storytelling, as you know, um, and, and how can we tell great stories? I think that, uh, storytelling is Thanks. is a bit of a lost art, and it’s coming back because people are realizing how powerful it is to change minds, to change hearts, and to make connections with the people that we’re Our peers and folks we’re trying to lead or influence whether it’s up or down in an organization.
We are hardwired for stories and there’s some really interesting research about what happens to our brains when we hear stories and, um, there are different brain chemicals that get released, our mirror neurons turn on, um, we are along for the ride when we are listening to a story. We are Right there generating our own internal imagery of what’s happening and one of the great leadership skills is to be able to put pictures in people’s minds and bring people into your experience so that they can go on that ride with you and then come out the other side and, um, And, and, and be open to what you might suggest about what’s next.
So I have a great example. I don’t know if we have time, but, um, a great example of where I saw some executives doing this, if you want me to share, there’s, um, um, group of hospital executives in Chicago led, uh, Initially by Rush University Medical Center. So this will relate to, you know, the industry that you’re talking about.
Well, Rush University Medical Center, uh, led by a team that had done a lot of research on the, um, racial health gap. And, uh, the former chief medical officer, David Ansell, wrote a book, um, actually called The Death Gap in Chicago where he, he and others who were on the team at Rush University Medical Center told the following story to try to get other hospital executives in the region to work with them on closing the death gap.
You get on the Chicago subway in downtown Chicago, um, you can expect to live into your 80s. That’s the average life expectancy downtown. You get on the blue line in Chicago and you go down into the subway, you get on the subway and take it seven stops and get out on the West side of Chicago. And if you get out and you live there instead of downtown, you can immediately lose 16 years off your life expectancy.
just because of the environment, um, and all of the risks associated with, with living in that West side neighborhood where Rush University Medical Center is located. And there’s a whole lot of reasons for that, um, uh, historic racism and under invested in neighborhoods and, and things like that. And so Rush.
began to ask itself, well, this is the neighborhood that we’re in. What is our responsibility to help close the death gap here? And, uh, they, they began to tell this story and it’s a horrifying story. Um, 16 years of life expectancy just by living in this neighborhood instead of in downtown wealthier Chicago.
And that, that story, which put pictures in people’s minds, um, lit a fire under the other health system executives in the region. And so they, um, got together and decided to do something about it. And one thing that came out of that was to launch a new nonprofit called Westside United, which is committed to, um, systems change and, um, all sorts of systemic interventions into the community to deal with, to basically help people, people live.
With, um, greater health and, um, safety and a sense of well being. So, this is one of my favorite examples of where a really clear story, um, coalesced people around a collective agreement that this has to change. We’re going to put some money into it, and they’ve attracted many millions of dollars to do this work in the West Side neighborhood of Chicago.
It’s incredible.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you for sharing this, uh, this powerful story. The final word is spread love and organizations.
Kate Isaacs: Say it again. Spread love
Naji Gehchan: and organizations.
Kate Isaacs: Spread love and organizations. Spread love and organizations. Well, I am actually really happy that we can use the word, the L word in business now.
Um, because it, it used to be a no no. It was a four letter word that nobody was willing to say. But, you know, in the end. What’s the point if it’s not about love and loving what we do, loving each other, loving our customers or our patients? If you’re in health care, why do we do anything in the end? Why do we do anything in the end if not for love?
I wouldn’t say anything more than that. It’s all about love. It’s all
Naji Gehchan: about love. And I will say I love it. I don’t know if you can say it in corporate, the L word, but for sure I’m saying it. And I, I really love that you also push for it. So any final word of wisdom for leaders? around the world.
Kate Isaacs: Say it again.
The sound cut out for a sec.
Naji Gehchan: Sorry. Any final word of wisdom for leaders around the world?
Kate Isaacs: I think for me, the next decade is going to be going deeper into the territory of how do we use our, our intuition, our awareness of what our bodies are telling us, our emotional intelligence.
All of the kinds of things that aren’t about data and, um, but are intangible. And I would dare say, perhaps a more feminine way of leading. I. We’ll be going into that territory. And I, I would just invite people to start to pay attention to, you know, what is your gut telling you? Yes, we need data and we need to have good logic and reasoning.
I mean, I’m at MIT, I’m trained up in that. And, and you have to pair that with an intuitive gut sense, um, paying attention to where do I feel alive? Where’s the energy? In whatever I’m trying to do. What about passion? You know, those dimensions of human experience are so important. Where do I feel joy and pleasure?
It goes back to that thing we were talking about, about glimpses and glimmers. And, and I would like to really elevate that as part of what leadership is about. Go to where you feel most alive and do that and pay attention to where you and others are most alive and expand that space because that is where, that is where change will happen.
And that’s where the future lies.
Naji Gehchan: Where do I feel alive? Thank you so much, Kate, for being with me today and this incredible discussion. Thank you.
Kate Isaacs: Thanks, Naji. Thanks for having me. Such a pleasure.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs