Naji GEHCHAN
Naji, welcome to spread love and organizations. The healthcare leadership podcast, where we explore leadership with purpose.
I’m Naji, your host, joined today by Angela justice, an award winning Chief People Officer, executive coach and trusted advisor to top executives, a neuroscientist by training. Angela began her career as a management consultant at McKinsey, before holding senior leadership positions in medical affairs, patient advocacy and human resources. Most recently, she was the chief people officer and head of medical affairs at TCR therapeutics. Angela has diverse background and hands on experience in the C suites and boardrooms of healthcare, biotech and nonprofit sectors provide her with a unique and informed perspective. Her deep understanding of human and organizational behavior enabled her to drive sustainable change, helping leaders establish strategic alignment, address blind spots and leverage strength for exceptional results. As the founder and managing director of justice group advisors, Angela is dedicated to helping leaders earn and embrace their seat at the table. Angela, it’s
so good to see you again and have you with me today.
Angela Justice 1:13
Thank you so much, Naji. I really appreciate it. I’m so thrilled to join you here today.
Naji GEHCHAN 1:19
So I want to first hear more about your personal story and really what brought you to biotech, from neuroscience and now entrepreneurship, always, though, focused on healthcare leadership. So I’m really eager to learn more about you. Yeah,
Angela Justice 1:34
oh, thank you. You know, it’s, it’s really interesting. I think if I would have been asked, you know, when I was a kid. So I grew up in a small town in rural Minnesota, and if you would have asked me what I would be doing today, right? I don’t think one. I would never have even known the career of executive coach existed, that that would have never even entered my my consciousness. But knowing, you know that I’ve been able to weave together this career through, you know, academic research to management consulting, healthcare biotech, and now being able to advise and coach leaders and executives and teams in biotech and life sciences companies to help them achieve extraordinary results. And have, you know, a big impact in the world, it would just, I think, blow my young Minnesotan mind.
Naji GEHCHAN 2:31
So tell us a little bit more. How did that happen, like how, why neuroscience and how you ended up being so passionate about human behaviors, organizational behaviors, and you’ve touched through your career all those aspects, from actually building capabilities global leadership development to being Chief People Officer. I’m intrigued What drove you in that, and how do you see your current mission, being an exec coach, helping
leaders be better leaders in life. Science.
Angela Justice 2:59
Yeah, so, you know, I’ve always been just fascinated by human behavior. I’ve always been the person, you know, asking, Why did they do that? You know, how? How can we get them to do something different? What? What’s it going to take to make this change? All my life, right from the time I was very young, and in particular, one of the areas that always caught my curiosity was this concept of potential. You know, I was, I was a dancer when I was a kid, and throughout most of my young adult life, I was a dancer. And, you know, I even taught dance. So I was like an apprentice to my dance instructor for many years. And what I loved about that I love dancing, right? I love pushing myself to to be great. But what I loved even more was identifying those other dancers that had potential, and thinking about how you could help shape and nurture that, so that they could become the best they could become, so that the collective group of dancers, the company, the team, could really become great. And so this, this concept of potential, has always been something that’s been really like dear to my heart, and I’ve always thought a great deal about what it takes to both identify potential, but then also to shape and nurture and grow it. And that, I think, is really what led me to pursuing my my degree in psychology, and really understanding, or trying to understand the underpinnings of human behavior, and then ultimately taking that a step further and really trying to explore the neurobiological underpinnings, or neuro chemical underpinnings of behavior. Really wanted to understand this very deeply, but all throughout it’s been really driven by just this innate, intense curiosity for what makes people do, what they do, and how we can bring out the very best in people and help them achieve their very biggest goals.
Naji GEHCHAN 4:59
I love. So my first follow up question, and I’ll get back to potential, because I love how you framed it. But how do they do what they do? How do we as humans do what we do? And how can you as a leader
get the best of each one’s potential?
Angela Justice 5:13
Yeah, you know, I think I’m still trying to figure that out. To be frank, I think when you it’s one of those things, the more you know, the less you know right, or the more that you learn that you need to learn. But I think inherently, just having that curiosity about behavior really is seeking to understand why people do and continuously asking and exploring and kind of probing. You may not ever fully understand it, but at least it brings out, I think, a sort of empathy which also creates the platform where you can start making inroads, start having impacts, start understanding and then ultimately asking different and even better questions to move forward. So I don’t know that. I know why people do what they do. I do know that there are certain things that you can do consistently, or think about or ask consistently, that help shape behavior. And those are just some real basic behavioral science principles and techniques that I think are fairly universal, aligning incentives and thinking about reinforcing certain behaviors, both positively and negatively, and negatively meaning taking the bad stuff away, not not punishing. But I think there are certain concepts that that help us understand and help us influence. But boy, humans are still a mystery,
Naji GEHCHAN 6:34
and that’s what’s beautiful in being a humans and leading humans. And as you’ve been Chief People Officer, you’ve also led organization as an operational leader. Have you found the magic recipe to be able to foster this potential and make sure that you have a high winning team? And how have you, how do you think about this as an operational leader, but also when you were a chief people officer, how would you bring what are the key major aspects that you would look in within a leader, where you would know they would succeed with the team you have?
Angela Justice 7:10
You know, I think oftentimes what it comes down to is having a goal that’s bigger than oneself, and I think that happens both at the individual level, but also at the collective and team level or company level, right? If you’re focusing on something that is greater than you, something that really matters to you, right? And this is one of the reasons I love healthcare and life sciences so much, because we’re all in it, because deep down, we want to make the world a better place. We want to make things better and easier and safer and happier for humankind, and when you can really focus in on what it is that you’re doing and why, it propels action in different ways. Right? It motivates people to take the steps they need to take to get it done, because they’re not doing it just for themselves. They’re doing it for a bigger purpose, and that bigger purpose can be incredibly motivating, because it takes people away from, you know, themselves in this kind of egocentric perspective or perspective that they may have. So I think first off, as a leader, aligning understanding right the motivation, but then aligning to a higher purpose is something bigger than than just oneself. It sounds perhaps a little trite or cliche or obvious, but it’s critical, and it really works. So I think that’s really the first step.
Naji GEHCHAN 8:37
It is.
It is certainly critical, and certainly, as you said, in life science and healthcare, it might feel obvious, we certainly wake up every morning to bring innovation to patients and help help people, help us at some point live better. But as you said, it’s not that simple to wake up and remember that every day. So making sure that as a leader and as a team, we always bring this purpose beyond
any anything else, right,
like dynamics,
egos, what I think, what you think, I’m sure you’ve seen those throughout different experiences and big organizations, smaller biotechs, it always exists, but it’s really going back to, why are we doing what we’re doing? And at the end of the day, this is the main, big purpose that we’re here for. Yeah, exactly.
Angela Justice 9:30
And you know, so often you do, you know that, you know that’s your goal, you understand that that’s the company’s bigger purpose. And yet, to your point, you get stuck in these kind of squabbles, or, you know, turf wars happen, or conflict happens between teams, and to be able to take a step back, and I think it’s an active practice of taking a step back, but to do that and say, look, here’s the problem, right? Here’s the challenges that we’re facing. We’re trying to solve them because together. We actually want the same thing, and then looking at it as we’re in this together, right? We’re going to solve this challenge as collaborators, as, like, you know, allies, not as as people who are trying to compete or at different sides of the problem. We’re actually on the same side of
Naji GEHCHAN 10:16
the problem. Yeah, yeah, looking at competition outside, actually, versus inside and really in healthcare competition is just the diseases right that you’re trying to cure and fight for the patients. You said, you know, as you were saying, like daily practice, stepping back. Where do you place humility? Because I’m feeling the more you grow, the more you learn, the more you have to be humble and accepting that you don’t have the best ideas, and it’s actually the team who will bring the best solutions towards your purpose, have you? Is this something you consider, you think of as a leader, or as you coach leaders?
Angela Justice 10:54
Yeah, absolutely. I think that humility is is is critical, and it isn’t always a quality that is honored, right? I think, especially in in healthcare and in highly technical fields. Let’s say, when you’re building this tremendous expertise, you know, you think of the the surgeon or the physician who’s building this tremendous expertise, and literally have lives in their hands, right? Humility is is not necessarily the first thing that comes to mind is the competency that’s going to help them excel. And yet, when you’re leading in organizations, humility is absolutely critical, because to get the best solutions, to get the best answers, to move the organization closer to its bigger goals and bigger purpose. It requires the collective effort of everyone, and that means people need to be able to take a bit of a step back and be open to hearing and learning and collaborating with others. So inherently, that requires a bit of humility. It requires confidence too. But I think those two things can actually go hand in hand.
Naji GEHCHAN 12:04
So when you think about all the experience you had in the different roles and now being an entrepreneur and executive coach, have you set intentionally the direction of your career and where you are today? And I love that it started with the love of dancing and finding potential. So what were you intentional on all those steps?
Angela Justice 12:25
Well, given that when I was a kid, I thought I was going to be a trapeze artist, right? That was like my career goal, no, I can say with confidence, set the direction. It’s definitely taken some pivots and some turns, but I think that kind of guiding principle throughout has always been, you know, this, this desire to really learn more about people and have an impact on the world in a way that was somewhat meaningful, and healthcare, life sciences, that’s always been a guiding Passion. You know, I always approach to those, okay, directionally, where do I want to go? And kind of thinking, you know, if I can think, like, three moves ahead, then the next move doesn’t have to be the defining move. It just has to get me closer to the ultimate kind of goal. And so I’ve always tried to take that approach right. I want to be directionally correct. I want to have an idea of where things are heading. But I also want to have a little bit of optionality built in, so that I can take advantage of things as they come along, and be very open minded, really, in opportunities as they present.
Naji GEHCHAN 13:38
So I want to double click on this, as you’re obviously an exec coach with leaders, you’ve been a Chief People Officer also, and I mentor a lot of early career professionals too, and who are at different stages, but even advanced leaders, sometimes They’re more into focusing on today and the immediate job or the next promotion, versus taking direction exactly what you said, like directionally in the right way, and what I want to really kind of achieve in my life, versus, you know, my next career promotion, or the next 10% which I’m not saying is not important, but I’d love your thoughts about, how do you navigate this? And I’ve seen it in different countries, being very different. I can tell you, in France and some countries in Europe, it’s different than what I’ve seen also in the US of this, you know, like high stake of a title and, you know, a promotion, versus, like you know your purpose of the job and the impact you have. So I’d love to get your thoughts off. You obviously been a people leader for several years. Yeah,
Angela Justice 14:52
I think, I think you’re right. It, it is. It’s a tough it’s a tough topic in some ways, right? Because. There’s a lot of personal identity wrapped up in one’s career. And I think in the US, we see that in particular, like a lot of one’s sense of self worth comes from their title, their job, their role and and I think you know, what I like to encourage people to do again is to take a little bit of a step back and think about what it is that they really care about, what they really want to accomplish, what they want their legacy to be for their lives, and that isn’t just the next job. That isn’t the next type, right, that’s going to be taking a much broader, more expansive view. And when people understand or have a bit of clarity on what it is that really matters to them and where they want to head again, directionally, it liberates them a little bit to think more expansively about their careers. And look, I’m all for advancement. I think, you know, it’s, it’s wonderful to be ambitious and want to move up in organizations, but I think the concept of moving up in organizations is a bit missing the mark. I think what really people need to focus on is moving up in their lives and really moving closer to their ultimate goals. And when you think, you know, a little bit further down the line than just the next job, it also it opens again, it opens that aperture so you can be a lot more opportunistic about things that you take advantage of, right? So if you’re thinking, I want this next promotion, you might be laser focused on getting that and that job, and then if you don’t get it, you’re going to feel kind of bad. But if you’re more thinking about I want this ultimately, and these are the skills, experiences and connections, I need to get there. Then all of a sudden you see lots of different opportunities open up, and lots of different steps Open up. They might be in terms of advancement. They might be a job that moves you, you know, quote, unquote, up the ladder. But it might be about broadening your skill set. It might be broadening your experiences. And again, those just open you up for newer and different experiences. It kind of takes the pressure off, but it also just really makes you a much more rounded, valuable professional.
Naji GEHCHAN 17:14
I love what you said. Move up in your life. I will. I wrote it down. I’ll always remember this as a great advice for all our listeners, and one of the powerful questions you asked I always used that is, what do you want your legacy to be in life? Think, when you start thinking through this lens, you open up, as you said, to different different types of perspective and really the impact that you want to have on others and on the word as you live it. When we also discussed, you talked about potential today, we also discussed about amplifying your edge. So I think it’s related to potential. Can you share a little bit more your philosophy about this? Yeah, yeah.
Angela Justice 17:59
So you know, this is a concept that I I really honed, I guess, or really explored, when I was at McKinsey. So I was a management consultant at McKinsey and Company, and I was what they called a non traditional hire. So that meant I had a PhD, not an MBA. And, you know, look, I knew very little about business. I had run a dance studio. I had done a few little entrepreneurial things, so I had a business inclination, but I didn’t have traditional business skills or knowledge. And I remember, you know, the first month year, even at McKinsey, working so hard just to fit in, just to become more like my MBA colleagues, and it was exhausting, but it also wasn’t working. I mean, I wasn’t like, being revered as, like, this amazing hire, like, Thank goodness they brought me in. I knew that there was a gap that I had to bridge, and I wasn’t going to bridge it by trying to be like everyone else. So what I did instead was I thought a lot about what I brought uniquely to the table that gave me an edge, and what I came up with was, look, you know, they didn’t hire me to be an MBA. They have those that hired me because I was a scientist. They hired me because I was a behavioral scientist, and I could come up with different ideas and hypotheses and ways of helping our clients, helping the companies that we were supporting achieve their goals, by applying my knowledge of behavioral science. So rather than, you know, trying to fit in, I started to hone my edge, which was I was a behavioral science that approached questions differently. I took a very experimental approach to the work we are doing. And when I started approaching the work that way and really talking about it like, I started talking about myself that way and really showing up by bringing those behavioral concepts to the table, everything changed. Now, all of a sudden, I wasn’t, you know. The PhD who didn’t have an MBA, I was the behavioral scientist who was bringing you know, novel insights and approaches to our clients that would really help them make the strategies that we were developing stick. So I always think about coming up with what is your edge? What is it that makes you unique, different, valuable, gives you that competitive advantage that will help you, help your clients, your company, your team, whomever it is, achieve again, those bigger goals.
Naji GEHCHAN 20:31
Well, this is a great advice. As we think about diversity, I imagine also within our teams, diversity of thoughts, of capabilities, so as an organization and as leader, embracing that and being open for those who we brought for their difference and not trying to make them fit the mold, right? Is a great learning
Angela Justice 20:52
Absolutely. I mean, it really at the heart of it that really is a lot of what diversity and inclusion is about. It’s recognizing those unique perspectives, experiences, talents, skills, ideas that people bring to the table that are different. But so often, I see this with leaders all of the time, and I made the mistake myself, right? You want to fit in, and that was not what McKinsey wanted from me. They wanted me to stand out. They wanted me to bring those different experiences, and that’s so true in organizations as well. It’s really easy to want to fit in, but you’re there because you have something to offer. You need to learn how to articulate it, how to tell that story, and how to make it apply. But bringing those unique gifts to the table is exactly what makes organizations.
Naji GEHCHAN 21:44
So I will pivot now to a section where I’ll give you a word, and I’d love your reaction to it. The first one is leadership. Well,
Angela Justice 21:53
the first thing that comes two things come to mind, actually, one is legacy. And partly because we were just talking about the importance of leaving a legacy and envisioning your legacy, I think using that to shape your leadership journey. The other thing that comes to mind is followership, because I think it’s really two sides of the coin, but I personally like to focus a lot more on the notion of followership than just leadership, because I think when you think about others, when you think about the people that you are leading, you need to think about why they should be following you, what it is that you’re doing to help them, support them, elevate them, pull them together, and again, back to potential, how you can recognize the potential of your team to really maximize that for themselves, but for each other and collectively as well. So legacy and followership.
Naji GEHCHAN 22:48
So the second one you just mentioned is potential.
Angela Justice 22:52
Yeah, well, so what do I think of when I think of potential? You know, I just think of maximizing all ways, shape and form, and really try to understand potential, you know, it’s interesting, right? Because you’ll have people who have, maybe similar backgrounds, experiences opportunity, and yet some people just seem to have limitless success, and others seem to hit a ceiling. And, you know. So I think if we think about what it is that’s necessary to unlock that potential, for people, you know, again, to me, it comes back to having a bigger goal, something that’s bigger than oneself. I think especially for a leader trying to understand and unlock that potential is is really important. What about coaching, coaching, you know coaching. When I hear coaching or think of coaching, I think of it as just an incredibly valuable tool, a gift in some ways. I’ve, you know, had the great pleasure honor of both being coached and coaching. I will tell you earlier in my career, I wasn’t as convinced about the value of coaching, and then I got a great coach, and I saw Wow. What you know? What can really happen when you have somebody who is asking thought provoking questions, who is challenging you, pushing you, supporting you, guiding you again, the unlock for potential there can be can be absolutely phenomenal. I’ve experienced it myself by having a great coach, and I continue to get coached. It’s an investment that I make in myself. I think it’s absolutely worth it, and I have the great honor and privilege of coaching some really exceptional leaders and seeing the value it creates.
Naji GEHCHAN 24:41
The last one is spread love and organizations.
Angela Justice 24:44
I love this. You know, when I think of that, what immediately comes to mind is that quote. I believe it’s Maya Angelou who says, you know, and I’ll butcher the actual quote probably, but it’s something to the effect of people will forget what you said. They’ll forget what you. Did, but they won’t forget how you made them feel. And I think if leader, if as leaders, we can bear that in mind, and we can think about how we want to show up with empathy, with compassion, with love, right for the teams, the companies, the people that we’re working with, that creates a legacy. I mean that really, that changes everything. It creates a movement. It creates a legacy, and it unlocks the potential of individuals, teams and organizations,
Naji GEHCHAN 25:34
any final word of wisdom for leaders around the world.
Angela Justice 25:40
Mm, well, you know, I’m not sure if I have any particular words of wisdom, I will make an offer. Because I think a lot of you know, a lot of this really requires a lot of deep thinking and introspection, like, really, to maximize one’s own potential and that of your teams, you gotta really think about it. You gotta reflect and and really, you know, try to figure out what it is that you bring that is your unique edge, and how you can help others find theirs. And so I actually created for your listeners a worksheet that will help them identify their edge. So it’s a it’s just a simple worksheet with a number of prompts. They can just spend some time thinking about what it is that makes them uniquely gifted, qualified, differentiated, and how they can start communicating that edge and bringing it to their companies, their teams, their workplaces, and then they can use it to also help others do the Same. So hopefully the unlock right of potential here can can be, can be pretty magnified.
Oh, that is awesome. Naji, thank you so much for doing for doing it. I will certainly have it on the episode page with also, if you allow your contact so people can use it and ask the questions if they have, it’s really awesome that they will be able to practice what we talked about and discovering and unlocking our edge. I’ll certainly do it, and I’ll loop back with you on it.
Yeah, I’ll love to hear what you come up with. It’s a really fun exercise. It’s one that, you know, I think it’s worth revisiting from time to time, because obviously things evolve, but my clients that have done it have really found that it can have some pretty tremendous impact.
Naji GEHCHAN 27:29
Awesome. Well, great. Thanks
so much again for joining me and being with me today on this chat. And I look forward to doing the exercise and continuing our discussions offline, too. Thanks again for being with me.
Angela Justice 27:41
Thank you, Naji. Thank you so much, and thank you to all of your listeners.
Naji GEHCHAN 27:47
Thanks for listening to the show. For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to spreadlavio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts, lest inspires change together and make a positive impact in healthcare one story at a time you.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs