Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by Carl Dahlberg, a physician innovator whose passion is solving important problems for real people. Holding degrees from The University of Michigan Medical School and MIT Sloan School of Management Carl has a multifaceted background spanning technology, medicine, art and business. He’s co-founder of the MIT Sloan Physicians Group and a mentor with the MIT Sandbox and UM6P Explorer innovation programs. Carl blends medical proficiency with entrepreneurial spirit and relentless creativity to drive positive change in healthcare and beyond.
Carl, it is great to have you with me today!
Carl Dahlberg: Great to be here, thank you.
Naji Gehchan: I would love first to hear more about your personal story and what’s in between the lines of your journey.
Carl Dahlberg: Oh, I, uh, I always feel funny talking about my journey because it’s, I feel like sort of a, uh, pinball machine. I, I’ve had a whole, I’ve got kind of a weird background. Um, I started out as a computer nerd, uh, back in junior high school, before it was fashionable to be a nerd. And, uh, from there I went to college and I got a degree in computer science from the University of Michigan.
And I guess what I liked about working with computers was making things happen. Uh, you can give it instructions and tell it to do something and something exciting would happen. That always appealed to me. Um, from there, I worked out in Silicon Valley for a little while doing IT, uh, for a computer reseller.
And that was interesting. I love living in the Bay area. Uh, from there I went to Chicago and I worked in the financial, uh, derivatives trading industry, also doing IT for a while. And, uh, these were interesting years. Chicago was a fun place to live. And, and, uh, the trading industry is very, uh, how do I put this?
There’s a lot of human energy and making a trillion dollars change ends every day. And, uh, it was something that I just couldn’t get excited about. You know, the movement of money didn’t really matter to me. And I decided that I wanted to go to medical school. I ended up going back to my college, University of Michigan, where I kind of found that the people that most appealed to my personality were the emergency physicians.
I liked being the one to make a diagnosis and, uh, in emergency medicine, you never knew what you had to do next. You had some sort of problem and it might have been something that you had done many times, or it might be something completely new, but you had to interact positively in the situation. So I did my residency and then, uh, I moved out to Massachusetts and been practicing clinical emergency medicine for almost 20 years now.
And a few years ago, I started realizing that all that creativity and, and desire to innovate and solve problems that I liked about working with computers. Uh, just wasn’t, you know, uh, wasn’t being applied. I really looked at the way healthcare was being performed, and you watch the same problem being solved a few thousand times in a row, and you begin to, you know, shake your fist at it and think, can’t we just do something about this at a higher level?
And so, so it doesn’t happen again. Um, and that led me to get involved in a medical innovation event. Uh, there’s a whole bunch of, there’s a very good medical entrepreneurship and innovation community around Boston. Uh, And I kept meeting people that went to the Sloan School at MIT and found them very engaging.
And so I, I went there to get an MBA and training and entrepreneurship and global innovation. Uh, yeah, it’s kind of, it’s kind of a weird career among sort of ping ponging around different industries.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks a lot for sharing a card. It’s, uh, it’s a great journey. It’s not weird. It’s a great journey.
But I’m going to follow up on a question because you’ve been, as you said, your career span between tech, business, and medicine and kind of combining those. Is there, you feel any common thread in between all of these different experiences that you’ve had?
Carl Dahlberg: Yeah. I mean, I, I get excited about solving problems and, uh, I get most excited about solving important problems for real people.
I think this is a thing that drew me into emergency medicine is that, uh, you are, uh, whatever problem is in front of you is kind of by definition, the worst thing that has happened to that person, uh, in a while. And, uh, it’s an emergency, like they need something done with that. And I like the creativity of taking a situation and trying to make it better.
Um, and I think that that is why I didn’t stick with the financial industry because I like solving problems for people. Um,
Naji Gehchan: that’s the thread. I love that. Solving problem for people. And I, I’m an ER doc too, as you know, uh, it’s certainly, you feel that you’re solving a problem that is saving a life. And obviously in the healthcare industry broadly, this is what we, what we Uh, we, uh, we work for and this is what we do.
Uh, can I ask you what is the most exciting problem that you feel we will be solving in the next decade? Oh, boy.
Carl Dahlberg: Um, you know, I think there’s a total overhaul that needs to take place in the U. S. healthcare system. Um, This is not a specific problem that needs to be solved, but, uh, I think we have this sort of triple point where we’re spending an incredible amount of money, you know, far more than any other industrialized nation and getting very mediocre.
healthcare outcomes in terms of population health. You can, uh, you can measure that any number of ways. And we come out, you know, kind of the middle of the road when compared to other countries. And at the same point, uh, we’re same time, we’re burning out our healthcare, uh, workers, you know, physicians and nurses are, are leaving, uh, and honestly patients are firing us allopathic healthcare, uh, in frustration, you know, the systems that we’re creating, Aren’t solving the problems people have and I think the industry is the big problem is that the industry needs to be redesigned.
So it solves people problem better. And I think a lot of savings will come out of that. Uh, and that’s the problem I’m excited about solving right now.
Naji Gehchan: So can we dig into this? And I know you’ve been mentoring a lot of entrepreneurs, startups, obviously working in the healthcare space and trying to solve it.
Is there a single advice when you, uh, when you meet with those entrepreneurs? Who are solving those big issues that will help the society. Is there any advice that you would give them as they start this journey?
Carl Dahlberg: So every, every situation is different, but the things I mentor people on are, uh, sort of listening to the customers that, you know, talking to the people that are actually going to be using your solution to figure out, uh, what exactly the problem is as they see it.
And, uh, how they measure that and then designing a solution from there. Um, I think that’s a pretty consistent focus. I work with a lot of student teams at MIT and, and they’re very brilliant people, much smarter than I am. Um, but being brilliant often blinds you to, uh, sort of the listening that you have to do sometimes.
I think this will resonate with you as an emergency physician. You know, it doesn’t matter what you think is wrong with the patient. Um, what matters is what is wrong with the patient and you have to discover that and you can only do that by learning. Uh, so I think that’s the first lesson is to take your assumptions, uh, list them out so you know what you think and then put all that aside as you go listen and explore.
Naji Gehchan: I love this. Um, as you, um, as you’ve been doing this with several entrepreneurs, seeing startups and also through your, uh, amazing background of solving all over the time from IT to now saving lives, what is your biggest leadership lesson really between again, leading ER, And helping entrepreneurs and startups solve some of the most complex issues in the world.
Carl Dahlberg: So it’s funny that you ask that, you know, I, I, I didn’t used to think I was a leader in any way, you know, Hey, what do you do as an emergency physician? You’re not in charge of, might not be in charge of the department or the hospital or, but, uh, in emergency medicine, just working as a clinician, you lead people through, you know, some of the.
Most transformative experiences of their lives. You, you lead the team, uh, to align the incentives and. Uh get the nurses and the techs and and the radiologists and everybody else working on this problem any consultants you have Anyway, um, I think Aligning the incentives is the best model of leadership.
I have right now um I think that the old model of physician leadership is that the Physician has all the authority and all the knowledge and tells whatever everybody else to do and I think that’s very antiquated Um, I think modern leaders Are not The owners of intelligence and the owners of the plan that they, they embody the mission and that their main skills are to communicate the mission to the various participants or the various stakeholders or team members.
That, uh, you know, you bring the why and
Naji Gehchan: help the other people bring out the how. That’s powerful. Embodying the mission and aligning the incentives. I’m going to go to a section where I will give you a word and I would love your first reaction to it. The first, uh, the first one is innovation.
Carl Dahlberg: Innovation, creativity, and resilience.
What about entrepreneurship? So entrepreneurship is taking an idea or the idea of an innovation and actually turning it into something in the real world. To my mind that means solving an important problem for people. for people.
Naji Gehchan: So, so I, I love, I love how you always come back to not only the real problem, but for real people.
Can, can you expand a little bit more about this thread you have and this philosophy you have about, about it being for real people?
Carl Dahlberg: Uh, you know, when I, when I get involved in business, it’s an academic exercise for me. Um, I get most engaged when I am helping someone. I think that capitalism itself exists to serve the needs of people.
Uh, and, and this, I come to this perspective as a physician, uh, I have no problem with making a profit. Um, but I think that the organization should serve the needs of its customers, the needs of its employees, uh, and the needs of its stakeholders all together. And, uh, That makes healthcare a little different than other industries, right?
If you’re selling widgets, then you can sit back and say, I’m maximizing value to shareholders. I did my job, but I don’t think that’s enough in healthcare. And I think that we have too many people that view it that way. And, and it’s, it’s taking us healthcare off our mission.
Naji Gehchan: The third word is health equity.
Carl Dahlberg: So, Hmm. Hmm. Health equity is second nature to me. I, I think, I guess health, health equity to me means learning to see your own biases, your implicit biases that you don’t recognize you have. It’s kind of like learning to see your own eyeballs. Oh, which is tough and usually takes the assistance of somebody outside of you to do.
As an emergency physician, I provide health care without, you know, any knowledge of who can pay and who can’t. That doesn’t matter to me. It’s a fortunate perspective in the system. But I have to recognize that, you know, the places that I practice in the U. S., we have resources that other parts of the world don’t have.
Interestingly, one of those resources is not intelligence. You know, we are not the smartest people in the U. S. And, uh, I think that the creativity and the, the, the spirit of innovation that comes from working with limited resources, uh, is actually a great teacher and that we can all learn from that. Um, I’m not a fan of physicians that walk around saying, I know the best and I’m going to tell you how it is.
Uh, I’m much more of a, uh, a fan of a physician that says, here’s what I want to accomplish, and this is why, and how can we accomplish this together? Is that a reaction to that one?
Naji Gehchan: It’s a great, it’s a great reaction, and I relate to several things you said. The last one is spread love in organizations.
Carl Dahlberg: Oh, spreading love in organizations.
So, I’m a big fan of spreading joy in organizations. Love is a little nebulous to me, but joy, I understand instinctively. Um, you know, when you say go spreading love, you know, maybe you love your boss. That sounds weird. Do you love your employee? I think that empowering people to find joy in their practice.
Is is more on the mark. And when I say joy, you know, I’m in touch with my own joy when I’m solving problems for people like that is a joyful activity for me. It’s not always fun, by the way, there’s a often it’s confusion between joy and fun. Um, the two go hand in hand, but frequently you can be working on a really hard problem.
That’s really meaningful to you and not having much fun at it because you have to hit your head against a proverbial wall a few dozen times. Um. That makes sense to me that resilience and focus on the mission, uh, spreading love and organizations I think should be a natural by product of people finding joy in what they’re doing.
Naji Gehchan: I love this. Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?
Carl Dahlberg: Um, boy, I feel like, I feel like I have a lot of wisdom to offer. I just have, What I’ve experienced, I would say healthcare leaders, uh, should communicate and, and gather and bind together. I think there should be clinical input into leadership at all levels.
And because if you’re a healthcare leader, you know, your clinicians own the mission. They are the people that are enacting your mission. And if they’re not having input into the systems you’re creating, um, You’re potentially making a horrible mistake and you’ll never know unless you’re listening to them.Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, Carl, for being with me today and this great chat.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs