Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.
I’m Naji your host. Joined today for the second time by Amer Kaissi and a award-winning professor of leadership. Imel is an executive coach that has worked with hundreds of leaders and teams all over the world.
He is the author of five books, including Ambitious, the Power of Low Ego, high Drive Leadership. His newest book is the Positive Intent Mindset: Exceptional leadership through trust and accountability. He has been featured on the Harvard Business Review podcast and numerous other media outlets, including our show.
He has spoken on leadership topics at more than 300 organizations and professional conferences. Amir lives in San Antonio with his wife and has two grownup kids in college now. Uh, Amer, it’s so good to have you again with me on this show.
Amer Kaissi: Thank you, Naji. It’s a pleasure to be with you. You know, the first time was so much fun, so I’m really looking forward to this time as well.
Naji Gehchan: Perfect. Well, I’m, I’m looking for that too. And before we dig into your, uh, new book, like even the title, I have so many questions for you. Uh, but for those who may not have heard our first episode, which I really recommend they do, uh, can you give us a little bit, a quick refresh on how did your upbringing shape your views on Leadership Ego Drive, and now this idea of positive intent?
Amer Kaissi: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. And, and, um, you know, the, the main message from that book, ambitious, which we talked about last time, was that in leadership humility is not a weakness. It’s actually a strength and it’s a superpower when combined with ambition. So the message was that when leaders are leading through complex and difficult times, which as we know healthcare and many other industries right now, these are difficult and complex times.
The best leaders are those that connect with humility. Elevate with ambition. And I did, I learned this lesson actually from observing my own mother. So, so I grew up like you did in, in Lebanon, and my mother also was, grew up and, and, uh, was born and raised in Lebanon and, you know, she, she was the, uh, president of an orphanage when I was growing up, that that’s where she spent the majority of her career is, uh, working in not-for-profit, um, serving, uh, kids who didn’t have anyone.
To take care of them. And I would go with her to work and observe how she led people. And, and you know, I, I would see how she treated them, how she respected people. She loved her team and they respected her. They loved her too. And sometimes they were a little bit afraid of her ’cause she was tough. Like she would held people accountable.
The whole place ran like clockwork when she was the leader. So, naturally at the time I was, I was a child. I didn’t know anything about leadership. When I was writing Ambitious, I talked to her about that and she explained about that leadership style and she said, you know when, when she became the president of that organization of the orphanage that was at the peak of the Civil War in Lebanon, and as as you recall, that these were hard times, and she said, you know.
Imagine trying to run an orphanage during a civil war because on the one hand, they didn’t have staff. Staff were quitting every day on her. They were calling her and saying, we can’t come to work anymore because the roads are too dangerous. On the other hand, they had so many kids to take care of because unfortunately, a lot of people were, were dying.
So high demand and low supply, but she had to. Manage and lead during that time. And she said the best way to lead during those difficult times was to connect with people on a human level to show them that she cared about them with humility and. To still hold them accountable and elevate with ambition and tell them, despite what we’re going through, we can still be the best at what we’re doing.
So I, I, that was a leadership lesson I learned back then, and I believe that any leader leading right now through difficult times, you know, the, the ambitious approach is, is one of those approaches that are evidence-based and can help, um, you know, leaders be able to differentiate themselves and, and lead for high performance for themselves, their teams and their organizations.
Naji Gehchan: So Hammer, I, I love it and I feel like. We’re going through the new book, uh, and how you’re thinking, um, about it and when, when you said, uh, you know, humility, connect with them at a people level as she taught you, and again, like impressive work she’s done in the country. Um, but also how hold people accountable, you know, like, and you know me now.
Well, like I always talk about love and discipline, right? And it feels like very similar to where. You’re going with your book, but also the research you’ve been doing and all that you’ve been researching in leadership. Uh, so I’d love to know how you moved from this ambitious concept and how your thinking evolved to now feeling it’s the right time to talk about the positive intent mindset and what does that mean for you?
Amer Kaissi: Yeah. The, the positive intent mindset is another one of these thoughts that came to me while I was growing up in Lebanon, in, in that civil war. And, and at the time it wasn’t a well developed idea, but, but as you may recall, growing up in a country that was torn, like that just showed us that when people assume negative intent towards each other because of political differences, because of religious differences, I mean, the entire society will collapse.
People will start mistrusting other groups of people and start looking for reasons to believe that mistrust. Sure enough, the other party is gonna act in a way that makes you mistrust them even more. And then mistrust begets more. Mistrust, negativity begets more negativity and, and whole societies collapse.
So. I see assuming positive intent as one of the practices that ambitious leaders put in place to avoid that cycle of mistrust. As you know, these days all over the world, but especially here in the west, in the United States, there, there is a lot of negativity out there. The, the country is divided as well as we both know, and employees can’t help but bring that negativity with them to the workplace.
That’s why we’re seeing low engagement. We’re seeing low trust, we’re seeing lack of collaboration, and we’re just, honestly, we’re seeing people are miserable at work and outside of work. And I believe that one of the main reasons for that is that we assume negative intent towards each other. And, and that’s what the purpose of the new book is to say, what if we change that default mindset that we have and we start by assuming positive intent, at least provisionally.
And then check with the other person and see what their intentions are. So, so this is the interplay that you’re talking about. There is assuming positive intent, but there’s also accountability. You know, you talk about love and discipline. I’ve talked in the past about ambition, uh, humility and ambition.
I believe that that is the sweet spot for leaders is to bring in, you know, the, the part where you are caring for people, but also the other aspect where you are challenging them at the same time.
Naji Gehchan: So, so, so let’s dig in this concept, because it’s kind of like putting two facing one another, right? Like trust and accountability, right?
Like you’re putting them head to head, basically, which is, which is key. So I wanna dig a little bit more about this. ’cause we both know how many, how many of us like think about trust. We all believe that high performing team trust is probably the most. Important piece, uh, in high performing teams. Uh, but yet we don’t build trust by saying we wanna build trust, right?
Like, there’s a lot of pieces that comes behind it. And it was interesting when I read like trust and accountability. Like, I, I wanna hear more about you about this, you know, like, personally, I always feel like. You can only trust someone who has always demonstrated accountability towards what they’re doing.
The action is way more important than the words and all, but, but are you thinking about it that way? Or like, are you confronting these two to make sure that it’s an end and not one without the other? Like how, how, help us think about it as leaders.
Amer Kaissi: Definitely. It’s, it’s a yes and, uh, kind of thinking where we’re thinking first.
We need to start from a starting position of trust. And you’re absolutely right. We don’t build trust by saying, you know, well, let’s have trust. We build trust first by starting to trust even if the other person hasn’t demonstrate, demonstrated yet, that they are worthy of that trust. So, so it’s, it’s a leap of faith, which is a little bit scary, which is a little bit challenging, but I believe that is the duty of leaders is to jump.
Then hope that solid ground will appear. So you start by trusting the other person, assuming that they have positive intent, but it’s not a naive approach to live or to work. There needs to be accountability there, assuming positive intent does not replace. Conflict resolution, it does not replace having difficult conversations with people where you tell them that their performance is not up to standards where, where you point a mistake or, or a behavior that they’ve been engaged in that is not, uh, productive for the team.
So it is, you start with the initial position, which makes for a much better, difficult conversation, but then you have that difficult conversation where you’re holding the other person accountable and Sure. When we trust first, we’re gonna get burned. Sometimes that is inevitable. We we’re gonna get burned.
Sometimes. I would argue though, that we over exaggerate. How many times we’re gonna get burned, we think we’re gonna get burned, you know, um, 80% of the time, or, or, or one out of two. Every time we trust. And the research shows that it’s not the case because most people are actually decent, most people are honest.
Most people are trying to do a good job. Now, is there 5% of people who will take advantage of that trust and burn us? Absolutely. They’re gonna cheat us. They’re going to try to take advantage of, of, uh, the positive intent for sure. I believe it’s still a better way to work and to live, to trust people and enjoy a luxury of relationships that are collaborative, that are built on trust.
So, so it’s a, i I believe it’s a risk that we should be willing to take, and that’s what the book is about is, is convincing people that it’s a risk that’s worth taking.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. I, I love this. As you were talking about it, uh, I was thinking. You know the other way around, right? Like, because as you said, probably we as leaders, you will be deceived 5%.
You’re saying research maybe like five, 10% of the times. But actually if you flip it around, you will be doing potentially more harm for your teams and organization if you do not trust them first. Especially when you’re bringing people that are strong, brilliant. Who are only waiting for trust and empowerment and for them to do their work.
So probably the downside of not doing it is way higher than the risk of having one over 10 from time to time failing you.
Amer Kaissi: That is definitely one of the arguments that I make in the book, which is it’s definitely very helpful for our relationships. Especially as leaders, you know, with the ripple effect of trust starting to filter throughout the whole organization.
So that’s one of the main reasons why we should assume positive intent, but it’s not the only one. And I think the other reason why we should do it is for ourselves, not just for the other person. There’s ample evidence that shows that when we work that way and when we live that way. We make ourselves happier, we are less miserable.
Imagine all the stewing. We involved in all of the negative thinking, all of the rumination we involve in when we are assuming negative intent. Let’s say you and I work together and in the meeting I say something that. You don’t appreciate or I roll my eyes at your idea or I, you know, come in late for our meeting.
All of these are situations where you could possibly think that I have negative intent. Now, if you go home and you stew about that all evening, you’re making yourself miserable. Even if you just do it during the meeting, right? You’re missing most of the meeting, most of the communication is happening.
You’re missing what I’m saying after I did that thing that you believed was wrong or, or unexplainable. So. There is definitely a very strong argument for improving relationships and trust and collaboration, but I believe there is a strong argument as well for doing it for ourselves to keep our wellbeing, to keep our happiness.
So one of the things that I say is giving others the benefit of the doubt is giving ourselves the benefit of low blood pressure.
Naji Gehchan: Well, this is, this is, this is very true. Uh, and as you know, like one of the pieces, obviously as you’re saying, it’s, it’s also reminding me of all those biases, confirmation bias, and then like you built, even when you gave example of.
Unfortunately, like wars that we both lived, it’s, you always find a reason to confirm what you believe the negative intent is, you know? But, so let, but let me push it a little bit more there. Like sometimes, like do you believe that at some point, some negative intent exists, and then how would you deal with that if it’s.
Consistently, like how, how do you look for it? Because it becomes more, more than an intent, right? Like if actions or if behaviors are being, are not fitting an organization, when, when do you take actions? How do you deal with that? What is the impact on the other part of the organization? Because, uh, you know, like we’ve all been in teams where you wanna assume positive intent, but it goes back to the same behavior of few people.
And I feel like sometimes. When you take too much time to address those, it becomes your problem as an, as a leader. Right? Like, so I, I’m trying to kind of, I wanna trust first, but can you give us like, uh, some tools or how to think about this and when, when to stop, uh, going with positive intent?
Amer Kaissi: For sure.
And I, I, and you’re definitely thinking about this, you know, the, the, the right way, because again. It’s not a naive approach. It’s not an approach where I’m just gonna assume positive intent and let people walk all over me, right? So the idea is start with that provisional, uh, position of assuming positive intent and trusting, and then.
Check with yourself, check with the other person, and check with the people who were there when the situation possibly happened. So first we check with ourselves. We see what biases we’re bringing to the situation. As you said, we have confirmation biases. We have a bunch of other biases that we can talk about in a minute if you’d like.
So we check ourselves first, and then we go and check with that person and we say, you know, when we had that conversation, it appeared that you had some concerns. It appeared that you were not happy with what I said. Can you please tell me more about that? So we check with the other person. We check with the people who are familiar with the situation, who know that person well as well, who were there at the meeting or who overheard the conversation.
So we started with all of that. Now, let’s say the behavior happens again shortly after. Or it becomes a repetitive behavior. That is where we stop assuming positive intent because clearly it’s not warranted anymore. That’s where we start having those difficult conversations of holding the person accountable, telling them, you know, you, you, you have proven that.
You are not willing to work collaboratively, that you are not someone who is, you know, who’s you, it sounds like you have a hidden agenda or you have some, some, um, negative intent and, and we hold them accountable. If, if they are peers, we hold them accountable. If they are direct reports, we hold them accountable.
So, so there is always that possibility of going from the. Original position to a position that is a little bit more, um, accountable, a little bit more tough, where we have those difficult conversations with them.
Naji Gehchan: Well, that’s super helpful. Uh, and, and, uh, if a few days today, you know, one thing, uh, that you think our leaders, uh, listeners would adopt, um, tomorrow.
Really to reflect this mindset and basically, uh, to, to make this change in their leadership team and see the impact in their organization, what would that be?
Amer Kaissi: I would offer them three very powerful questions to ask themselves. So if we notice someone acting in a way that appears to be wrong to us, or is just questionable or unexplainable, there are three questions we can ask.
The first question is, what if they have a valid reason? Four or behind what they’re doing. Okay, so that’s the first one. What is there is a valid reason. Let’s go and check. Second question. What if they’re trying their best? Now that does not absolve accountability. ’cause their best could be not enough, but it is a better starting position.
So that’s the second question. What if they’re trying their best and then there’s a third. More introspective question, which is you notice someone doing something wrong, you ask yourself, have I myself done something similar to this in the past? Now that one requires a lot of humility and a lot of courage.
I’ll, I’ll give a very simple example. You know, one of the things that bother me the most at work is when people hit reply, all there, an email goes to a group. There’s no need to hit reply, all people hit reply all, and then you have, you know, a thread of messages that that is going back and forth. You don’t need to be part of that.
So that annoys me a lot. But sometimes I stop myself and I say, have I myself done that before? Intentionally or not? And the answer is yes, I have done that mistake as well. So then I’m less judgmental, then I’m more curious, maybe that person. You know, is busy, is overwhelmed, is distracted, whatever it is.
So that last question is such a powerful question. To force us to be nonjudgmental and to be humble about observing anyone doing a mistake and giving them the benefit of doubt as long as it’s not a mistake that they keep on repeating over and over. ’cause then we need to have a different conversation.
Naji Gehchan: Well, these are. I won’t say easy, but practical, tough questions to ask ourselves. And it’s, it’s a great way for us to think through it. Uh, I’m gonna give you now, uh, a word. You know, this part of the podcast where I’ll give you a word and you’ll react to it. Uh, the first one, you know, already, I wanna see if it changed it’s leadership.
Amer Kaissi: My thinking about leadership has been evolving over the years, obviously, and the more I think about it now, the more I think about the role of leaders is to project calm and inspire hope, especially during these difficult times. And I believe ulti love, compassion, positive intent, all of these are great tools that leaders have to project calm and inspire hope.
Naji Gehchan: That’s beautiful. What about trust?
Amer Kaissi: I say trust is efficient. If we can start with that starting point of trust and the other person proves worthy of our trust, and then they start trusting us back. That relationship is gonna take off so much faster. We’re gonna collaborate so much faster. The speed of our interactions is gonna be so much better and we’re gonna be more productive.
So I, I think of trust as a fundamental principle, and I think of it in terms of efficiency and allowing relationships to. Go on much faster because you don’t need to check each other’s intentions anymore. We don’t need to worry about, you know, if I have bad intent. If you’re trying something bad, we, we just trust each other fully and then we can then focus on the work itself rather than the politics and the personalities.
Naji Gehchan: The third one is author.
Amer Kaissi: Author for me is discipline. You know, we were, we were chatting before we started and we’re talking about writing books and all of that. And, and I get the question asked a lot, which is, what does it take to write a book? And, um, my answer is always discipline. It’s. Showing up. Um, it’s finding the time, it’s opening your laptop and opening that blank page and writing that number of words that’s required for you to be able to finish the book on time.
My challenge for this last book as an author was to find the time in between. Teaching and between coaching and between travel, and I wrote a lot of it in airport terminals and on airplanes. And believe me, that was not the first thing that I wanted to do. Uh, I was tired on a, on an airplane ride back home.
Nonetheless, I opened that laptop and I wrote 2000 words, which is what I was trying to do, um, most days. So it’s, it’s really all about discipline.
Naji Gehchan: Oh, the last one is spread love in organizations.
Amer Kaissi: Spread love in organizations. I still believe that is one of the primary duties of leaders. And leaders who don’t see it that way I think are not gonna be great leaders in this current environment.
So I would say it’s absolutely necessary, and as we’ve discussed, it has to be coupled and complimented with accountability.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom armor for leaders around the world.
Amer Kaissi: Again, these are very difficult times. Negative world. We live in divisive times. It’s the leader’s duty to be aware of that, to recognize that people are bringing some of that negativity with them to work.
To show up in an intentional way. It all starts with the leaders showing up intentionally in ways where they’re spread love, they’re spread humility, they’re spreading compassion, assuming positive intent, all these great things we’ve talked about, because as we both know, it doesn’t happen by itself. You gotta be intentional about it so you can be consistent and resilient in the long run.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, Amer, for being again with me today, and hopefully we’ll do a third one at your sixth books, a book launch. Uh, but I hope you’ll take a break and enjoy some of, uh, the time too as you are coaching and, and spreading the word about your book.
Amer Kaissi: Thank you, Naji. It’s been a pleasure as always.
A lot of fun. You’re a great interviewer, so I, as always, I had a lot of fun with you.
Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs