Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

I’m Naji, your host, and I’m delighted to be joined today by Catharine Smith & Jason Cordeiro. Catharine Smith is a mission-driven executive leader with more than 15 years of experience scaling high-impact organizations at the intersection of healthcare, innovation, and equity. As the inaugural CEO of the Termeer Institute, she has built an international leadership organization from the ground up, launching global partnerships and scaling programs that expand access and opportunity for emerging leaders across the biotechnology ecosystem. Prior to the Termeer Institute, Catharine served as the CEO of the Clinton Health Matters Initiative at the Clinton Foundation where she led a team focused on stigma reduction and overdose prevention related to the opioid epidemic. 

Jason Cordeiro is the Chief Operating & Innovation Officer of MassBio. He joined MassBio in September of 2018 as the Vice President of Consortium Operations. In his current role, Jason is responsible for helping drive MassBio’s strategic vision and ensuring the organization is always positioned to support the industry. He is responsible for leading the membership organization and focuses on industry partnering and early-stage company support through our Partnering programs and Edge services. He had worked at BIDMC researching the effects of NSAIDS on ovarian, prostate, and breast cancers and had spent nine years with Thermo Fisher Scientific in various commercial roles.

Catharine, Jason, it’s such a pleasure to have you with me today!

So we’ll start where we always do on this podcast and I’ll start with Catherine. We have, I have had the pleasure to have you on my show, but can you refresh a little bit our memories about your personal story and the incredible work you’ve done since a lot you’ve accomplished with now the institute? Can you tell us more about your story and what you’ve done so far?

Catharine Smith: I’d love to. Um, so, as you mentioned, I’ve been working in healthcare for a couple of decades, and essentially, the thing that I’ve been focusing on is what are the lover levers within healthcare to make the system better for patients? I started out working in hospital medicine and primary care, really thinking about how do you build a workforce, on the delivery side of things, that has, uh, the right clinical skills, but the right leadership skills and the right soft skills, right, to drive the right kind of change in healthcare, that really impacts patients, um, and really improves, um, care delivery. A few years ago, um, when the premiere at the time the premiere foundation was starting, I, um, began the role of working with the founding board to really think about kind of the same thing, right? How can biotech be a lever for the right kind of change for patients? And what it ended up being was, um, how do we build this workforce of leaders within early stage biotech that will have the power to, um, change the face of care delivery because of their, uh, through their innovation, um, that they’re bringing to patients. I love that, Catherine. and I’ll go to you, Jason now. If you can take us through your journey from research now leading operations and innovations at MassBio.

Jason Cordeiro: Yeah. I’m happy to, and, um, You know, I think that I’m so thrilled to be on the podcast with you both. Um, you know, I’ve had a been privileged to work with Catherine in the Tamir Institute, so this is a great form for us to talk about all the good things that we’re doing together for, uh, for the industry and ultimately for patients. So, you know, I, you know, started in science, did some work in the lab, realized that science is really, really hard. Um, and when I looked at my skill set, I think I’m more of a more strategic thinker, working with people, building teams, um, and pulling people together and not so great at pipetting. So ultimately, I wanted to build my career working toward the business side of the life sciences. And now I find myself at Mass Bio, just with this opportunity to, uh, work with so many brilliant minds, brilliant entrepreneurs and help put them in a position, uh, where they can develop therapies for patients, and that’s ultimately, I think what drives me every day, what drives our organization every day is being able to think strategically, be creative, listen to what the industry is going through, and make sure that, you know, we leverage our network and our position, um, to help people and help drive companies forward, drive therapies forward. And ultimately, like I said, you know, get a therapy out to patients. And I think that’s, you know, what mass bio is all about and what I love about the organization and and being able to do, um, creative new things constantly, meeting the demand of the ever-changing industry and building great partnerships like we’re going to talk about today with the Tamira Institute. Well, I’m so excited about the conversation. We we, the 3 of us share the same purpose. We’re all here, and I love both of you, how immediately went to what we do for the patients and how we’re really focus on making life better for people, at the end of the day, as biotech leaders. Uh, and I know what both of your organizations kind of think through leadership to make uh, to make an impact, a positive impact and uh, for, uh, for the industry and patients be served. So, and you’re both here together today, as you started an amazing partnership, actually, between both Masbio and Premier Institute. Can you tell us a little bit more how this began and then how this collaboration will benefit the broader ecosystem?

Catharine Smith: Yeah, I’m happy to kickstart that. Um, I mean, I have to say, Jason, I think the world, there’s a great loss to the world that you’re not, um, in the lab and I feel like you probably have some really strong pipetting skills, but, You know, I think in answer and IG to your question and back to what Jason was saying about his skills in really building and supporting teams and on the business side of supporting the ecosystem. That was really what I think was the, the, the foundation of our partnership, right? We’ve been kind of lightly interacting with each other for years from the very beginning of the institute. We have a lot of the same for parents, right? Um, and we knew immediately that there was that right partnership chemistry. And that’s, you can tell immediately by listening to Jason, he’s just like a lovely human. His team is a group of really talented, lovely people. And so I think we knew from the very beginning that we wanted to work together. Um, and then it turns out that we started having conversations about supporting early stage entrepreneurs and founders in the biotech space. That came, I think, from within our organizations, but with all also within our networks and ecosystems, where we were all saying, you know, there’s more that we can do to leverage our resources. Mass Bio has a tremendous amount of resources and support infrastructure. Um, we love our early stage founders and we have a network of, we think the best early stage, um, you know, biotech leaders on the planet. And so we said, how can we come together and how can we support an even bigger group of um, early stage leaders. And that’s how Link was born. Jason, you want to share more about Lake?

Jason Cordeiro: Yeah, for sure. And, and, you know, thank you for saying all those things about us and mass bio. You guys are tremendous partners as well. We just, it’s so, a partnership has never been so easy because we are so aligned on the goals that we’re trying to accomplish. So we get to just have fun really and do good at the same time, which is the best part about it. Um, And if I if I take a step back as, and when I think about the sort of how we started to formalize the partnership, you know, we have, we’re constantly getting feedback from our members, from the industry. It’s one of the things, one of the themes that started to arise was, That, we hear in, in our ecosystem, the Boston, Cambridge, Massachusetts, biotech life sciences, ecosystem, although very strong, very entrepreneurial, there’s not, there was not a ton of camaraderie amongst those founders, the executives, uh, you know, when you compare it to sort of the the tech ecosystem on the west coast, I guess it’s they’re all very connected and they share ideas and whatnot. And so, it was, the theme was coming to us. How do we coalesce these founders to become more tied together. They can share more information. They can move together. And so we felt we were in a position to do that. as mass bio. And for us, there’s no better partner to do it than the premier institute who whose job it is, is to train those 1st time CEOs and those founders. And so why don’t we partner on this stuff together and build this this network. And it just made, it just makes a ton of sense for us both. And so from that, we sat down and talked about how we do it. And it was just, you know, one meeting, it was absolutely, this makes total sense. Let’s do the founder link. Let’s bring these folks together quarterly in a, you know, relaxed environment, maybe share a little bit of content, help them learn, but really just give them an environment where they can share with one another and feel comfortable and be connected. Uh, and and so from that, you know, we’ve been able to grow the network now where, you know, coming up on 400, 500 members or so, it’s, it’s, it’s been, it’s been amazing and, uh, you know, the impact is great. And we just, we continue to build from there because then it’s led to these other conversations on, on what, what we can do together next. And, you know, one of the cool things is, and I’ll let Captain kind of talk about this, but it’s, we ran our strategic reports at very similar times, and came up with nearly identical ideas from our individual reports that led us to the direction we’re heading in now. So, just a really cool collaboration.

Catharine Smith: Oh, this is great. Like when things align and it’s a triple win. Like for both organizations, but most importantly, what you’re trying to achieve for the founders of biotech and the leaders in healthcare. So it’s, this is really, this is really great to see. And I know you’re focused really on leadership development, particularly, I think in both of your organizations. So can you share a little bit more? Why do you think this is particularly important? I would say, has always been? But why do you feel it’s even more now? Uh, for for the industry, as you’ve been partnering to develop this, like the network and also this leadership, those leadership skills uh, for, for us in healthcare.
Catharine Smith: Yeah, I mean, I love this question and and, you know, I think Jason and I are aligned and just kind of focus on community and focus on people and, you know, at the end of the day, we we know that startups, especially kind of our our smaller kind of earlier stage baby companies, so much of their success is about the team, right? And so much of that success is about who’s leaving the team. Um, sometimes that’s the founder of the CEO, but really it’s that kind of broader, whether it’s 2 or 3 or whatever it scales out to, that it’s about the team of leaders, that are setting the vision, communicating the vision, bringing people along, interacting with investors, um, interacting with patients. Um, and those skills, you know, sometimes we’re born with really great leadership skills and sometimes we’re not, and that’s not deterministic about whether or not we’ll be a great leader. Um, there’s a way that we can build those skills and fine tune and hone those skills over time. Um, and that’s really, really important. I think we can sort of see in our day-to-day life, the impact great leaders have. Um, you know, for us, we’re we’re inspired by Henry Tremier, and we can see his impact today, and we’ll see his impact tomorrow. Um, and I know within Jason’s ecosystem, there’s just so many amazing leaders within mass bio, um, Jason and Kendall and the board, that are just really leading the future of the ecosystem. So, um, I think we have that shared value of the importance of being patient centered leaders, value centered leaders. And so we were able to really build off of that in our partnership.

Jason Cordeiro: Yeah, and I’ll add too. Like, you know, the word gets thrown around so much, but, you know, synergies, it, but we, our organizations are incredibly synergistic in that mass bio, our goal is to continue to foster the, the ecosystem, the business environment, create new companies, get new therapies out to patients, and the Tamir Institute, really focusing on the leader themselves, helping support those people that are going to lead those companies, right? So we’re focusing, we’re focusing on the, on a company and building a great, strong organization and supporting that organization. Catherine and her team focusing on the leader. It just, those 2 things combined just made so much sense for us to, you know, naturally build these programs together. And I think that’s the way that we’ve been able to work on this, right? We have mass biles run our accelerator program, mass by our drive for a number of years. And now, you know, we start to sit down with the Tamir Institute, and we’re realizing so many of our drive companies, CEOs have gone through the Tamir program, and the Tamir founders are going through drive, and it’s just, it’s a, um, it was, that was already happening. So now we’re just really being intentional and thoughtful about how we really harnessed the power of both of our organizations.

Naji Gehchan: I, I, I really love it because when you both, you know, are sharing both part of the organization, I’ve been smiling because I always, uh, talk about, you know, it’s really about people and science. And like science by itself. several times won’t go anywhere if you don’t have the right people and the right leaders actually who are driving it for to get to patients at the end of the day because that’s what you want to do. And it feels like this emerging and what you guys have been working together is really kind of combining both the science and leaders. So I had a photo, I’m question. You said, Catherine, this is one of the things I always get us and I kind of discuss with leaders on this show. Um, his leader. you said leaders are not, you’re not always born as a great leader. There are skills that can be learned. Can you say a little bit more, like, what is the most important skill or capability you see these days for readers? And can it be there? You know, there’s always this question of like, can you learn and be a better leader by practicing. So I’d love your both of your views on that.

Catharine Smith: I mean, yeah, I’m actually excited to hear what Jason says about this, but, I think in this industry, and I would argue, um, in any any industry, I think being human center is critical. Um, I think really focusing on improving humanity is key. It doesn’t matter where you are as a leader. If we’re not doing that, why are we even here? And in the life sciences, it’s even more poignant. right? There’s so many resources going into healthcare. Arguably the most resources that we spend as a society go into, into healthcare, into science, into the life sciences. Um, and we should be doing that for people. We should be doing that for patients. All of us should be better off. Um, people who are sick should not be sick anymore. And that’s really, the, the through line of our industry. And so to me, I think that that core Y, there’s all kinds of leadership skills that are really, really important, right? To be an effective leader in biotech in the life sciences. But I think that core, bringing it back to humanity, bringing it back to patient centerness. That’s key. Are people born with that? I don’t know, you know? I think that people, hopefully, through connections with each other over time, no matter where they started, um, that passion for humanity and for patients just gets bigger and bigger as they talk to people and they talk to patients and they learn from the people around them. Um that that passion just keeps growing. It’s a, that’s a great point, Catherine. You know, she’s probably expecting me to say. No, if you’re not born as a leader, you’re never gonna make it. That’s just, that’s not true. argument here, right? That’s the best podcast. No, I think absolutely. It’s, you know, having, um, you know, the people at the heart of everything that that you do as a leader is important and I think the key for this industry too, is there’s so many talented, so many brilliant, people and brilliant minds in this industry. that we need to help them understand how to take the tools that they have, the mindset and approach that they have to their science, and apply that same logic to leadership. And that is going to unlock so many different things for the companies, the teams that they work on. And it’s just, you can be incredibly inquisitive, uh, and supportive, both in science and with the people that surround you. So I think that’s where, you know, the biggest potential is for us is that we have so many, you know, untapped leaders in our industry that have all of these skills, they’re so smart and they’re all already so passionate. That’s the that’s the beauty of our industry that Catherine’s alluding to. You’re not in biotech, unless you really care about the patients at the end of the day, and that’s we’re already all working towards the same goal. So I think it’s just about really unlocking, you know, those leadership skills that everybody has and pivoting the way that we think about what we do every day and helping the people around us to meet that end goal.

Naji Gehchan: 100%. And so, tell me more about the idea after mirror sand, how did this emerge? And why is it, what makes it different?

Catharine Smith: Yeah, um, you know, Jason mentioned that we, it turns out Mass Bio in the Premier Institute, we’re doing our kind of strategic planning cycles at the same time, and we both landed on these kind of 2030 plans that were, um, envisioning an even stronger ecosystem. Mass Bios is this amazing, check it out on their website. It’s really amazing. It’s really, uh, data based in data and evidence and, um, really well thought through about the future, the ecosystem. And on our side, we were really thinking that Tremier Institute was really thinking about how do we build the capacity of early stage leaders. What are we supposed to do there, right? What can we do? And the one thing that we landed on, because we heard this from our early stage ecosystem, primarily from our Tamir fellows or our CEOs. You know, They were asking us consistently, is there a fellows program for our executive team or a rising executive team? How can you support our CSOs or our CMOs or the people that are kind of in that in that orbit trying to get to that place? Um, we didn’t have that program, right? So we started thinking, you know, when people ask us for things, we want to be responsive and we started thinking, how can we do this? And so we had built into our strategic plan, this broader idea around supporting early stage biotech executives. And, um, and then we started having conversations with Mass Bio, um, about what their plans looked like and there was a ton of alignment. We did the, when we were doing our report. Um, you know, we did a ton of data collection with our, with uh, Mackenzie, our partner on, on the, on the strategic plan, and had number of interviews, um, with biotech executives, leaders in the industry, from a big farm of biotech, academia. I’m sure Catherine had a conversation or 2 in there as well. And the theme, that was a big theme that arose was we have really good C-suite teams right now. But we don’t know where the next crop of those CCU executives are coming from. We have really smart, great people in the management levels within our organization, but how do we get them to bridge that gap? And so from that, you know, we made that a pillow of our report as well. And, you know, luckily for us, because, you know, our board was very supportive of us going at this this goal. And we understand that we know our role. We’re not. We’re the life sciences organization. We represent the industry. We want to do everything we can, but we can’t do it all ourselves. and I’m not, I’m not, uh, A teacher. I don’t know how to do leadership building. But I know the people that can, right? And I think that’s where we thought the partnership here makes so much sense. Let’s bring in the experts that are already doing it, know what they need to do to build the next crop of leaders for the industry. And that’s where this, you know, ascent came from and how we are really, our mass bios efforts are totally in support of Catherine and her team running this, this training program, um, for the executive. So thrilled to support her, earn the team.

Catharine Smith: Yeah, yeah, this is. This is really exciting. And, um, can you tell us a little bit more practically how this works. you know, who should apply, uh, and what are kind of the next act. I’m sure there’s a lot of people listening who will be excited about this. And I’ll make sure there’s the link also for the webpage so that people can see more. But if you guys can tell us a little bit more about more practical terms about the program.
Catharine Smith: Absolutely. And you know, you also ask, like, what makes it different. So I just wanted to reflect on that a little bit and then I’ll pivot to the to the details. Um, You know, I think, as, as Jason has mentioned it, as we’ve talked about, you know, our partnership is perfect in so many ways. We have that values alignment. Um, we have this amazing community that that is so happy to pay it forward. Um, and so I think what makes us send wildly different is one just the, the combination of the mass bio in the Trimier networks is unbelievably powerful and we’ve seen that in so many different places. You know, when we think at the Chemir side about leadership development, um, we sort of think of kind of 2 various elements, but there’s 2 things that we think about when the, we think about the leadership journey and there’s kind of the psychosocial, um, journey that people go through that I think sometimes can feel a little fluffy to people, but it’s not, you know, if you know, you know, right? There’s this psychosocial journey that we’re all going through. And we have this amazing head of leadership, learning and design, Michelle Berg, and she really has worked with us to think about the specific psychosocial elements that go with early stage biotech companies. Um, and early stage biotech leadership. And the other piece is that network element. So obviously, the psychosocial stuff is really important. And um, what’s really important is learning from people who’ve done it, right? Who’ve been on the ground, who can be both inspirational and brutally honest about how we get from point A to point B, especially when point A to point B is a usually a faster timeline than what we can deliver and it’s very crunched and it’s very complicated. Um, and so we’ve been able to really leverage this like personalized leadership journey for the life sciences, for biotech, with this unbelievable network to launch this program in the summer. Um, so maybe I’ll shift to some of the details. And um, so we’re launching in over the summer, the program will start in May and go through August. Um, it’s a, uh, 6 day learning module, um, focused on, as I mentioned, kind of that, how do we build those internal leadership skills that we all need around resilience around communication. Um, the stuff that we need to really be effective when we’re leading teams and we’re in, when we’re interacting, um, with different stakeholders in our company and external to our company. And then we’re also bringing in some just like killer, killer speakers and teachers. From the biotech industry. And I call them teachers. I’m not sure if they would call themselves teachers either. In many ways, they’re calling themselves mentors, but I think we decided that, um, mentoring is amazing, but um, sometimes when we ask our mentors to be teachers and work with a larger group of people, that that can create really special connections, um, and be a really effective way to share those, um, tactical lessons that people need when they’re, um, when they’re rising into the C suite and they’re building companies. This is great. Jason, anything else you want to add before I prefer to a different section where I would love some reactions to few words?

Jason Cordeiro: Yeah, I’m, um, I think what, I don’t, I’m not sure when this is gonna be released, you can edit that out, but I think applications are open now. We are building the cohort now. Uh, it’s going to be hosted at uh, Mass Bio uh, headquarters at the Mass BioHub in in Kendall Square. And so, you know, we’re trying to bring as many folks in and happy to have anybody connect with anybody at Mass Bio or their Tamir Institute to learn more.
Naji Gehchan (Interviewer): Awesome. And when will the application process end?

Catharine Smith: May 1st. May 1st. of applications by May first. Great. Uh, so, uh, yeah, and I’ll, I’ll, as I share it, I’ll put the links so, uh, so people can figure this out too. Now I’m going to pivot to the section where I’m going to give you a word and uh, each one of you. I want a reaction to it. The 1st one is leadership.

Jason Cordeiro: I mean, leadership, to me, my my immediate reaction to leadership is, uh, I think about the people around you around me, the people that I work with every day, and, uh, you know, for me, leadership means putting people in a position to be successful, uh, and and finding their aha moments for for the individuals. And I think that’s where I find my win as a leader is seeing everybody around me be successful in helping put them in a position to get those wins.

Catharine Smith: Jason, I see you do that all the time. It’s really cool. with your team. Um, I think for me, I agree with everything Jason said, and I think that would actually probably be my top, um, answer as well. The thing that I would add is that it’s a, uh, leadership is a marathon, not a sprint, to, it’s a lifelong journey, um, where we mess up a lot, and we fail a lot. Um, and so maybe the other piece of leadership is being able to like, climb out of that perceived pit of failure, um, and be better off afterwards. Although I’ve seen, I’ve been around Catherine now for a couple years. I haven’t seen her fail yet. So we’ll see. Maybe she might just be being nice to people out there. Also, I think I’m not supposed to say this, then maybe it’s the art of deception, right? But yeah, maybe. That’s definitely part of leadership. Yeah. And I see like some of the imposter thoughts kicking in too. And yeah, but but it’s, it is a learning, uh, out that learning journey. I fully agree. I feel like you would never We never stop hearing. Like every time I’m like, oh, well, you know, I’ve seen so much. And then you’re always surprised by humans, which is the fascinating facet of leadership, right? Like we deal with humans and we are so complex and so fascinating. Abs- absolutely. I think empathy is of the utmost importance as a leader in being able to understand where every different person is coming from and that can be the most challenging part about being a leader, but definitely the most rewarding. So the 2nd word is community.

Jason Cordeiro: The community for, I mean, this is what we’re we do every day. for us. You know, the community is what drives us forward and pulling the community together. Um, The shared mission of this industry. We have were made up of, you know, Mass Bio has 1700 different member organizations. Um, But it’s all one community. And, you know, similar to my earlier comments. That’s, that’s why people are, we’re all in this industry for the same common goal and contrary to popular belief, it’s not because we’re in it to make a boatload of money. It’s because we want to work hard and and ultimately find a solution for for someone out there. And I think that is what this community is all about and that’s why, you know, it doesn’t matter which company or you’re talking to or which person you’re talking to. Everybody is already aligned on the goal of the other person. I think that’s the beauty of this community that we have and in biotech.

Catharine Smith: This is my favorite thing about working in biotech, honestly, exactly what Jason is saying is the community, the fact that people, they are aligned on the same thing and we’re all, um, we’re all supporting each other. There’s that interdependent. Sometimes there’s codependence, but there’s that interdependence that we have. Um, with each other and and, um, our team just spent, uh, a few days in the Netherlands in March. Um, we’ve traveled to a variety of different biotech ecosystems in the US and beyond. And it ties us together. We’re all on the same page, you know, it doesn’t matter where we are in the world. Um, people working in biotech, um, We are all trying to make humanity better to, um, support patients through their health and wellness journeys. So, um, I agree with Jason. I think community is so critical to what we do and I think critical to our partnership. The 3rd one is biotech. What’s your reaction to that?

Catharine Smith: Take this one, Catherine. I’d love to. Um, I think because I come from a broader health system, background. Um, I’ll answer this, uh, you know, I tend to like have this map in my head of the full healthcare system. Um, global healthcare system. And when I think about biotech, what I think is that biotech gets to be this special owner of cutting edge science. Um, and if we look at at human health, if we look at the US healthcare system, we’re spending so much money on healthcare and we should be, right? We’re not necessarily getting the outcomes for those expenditures. And I look at biotech as like this shining light of potential and hope. Um, because if we’re going to all be better off 100 years from now, it’s because that cutting edge science is going to translate into a place where we are providing better care, more effective care, more patient centered care, more cost-effective care, um, and so much of the potential. There’s potential throughout the whole ecosystem, the whole healthcare system. Um, but so much of that potential arrest in biotech because we get to be the sacred owners of so much of the, of the scientific technology. So that’s a tremendous amount of responsibility. But it’s also a tremendous amount of fun.

Jason Cordeiro: Totally echo what you’re saying and, you know, biotech is the tip of the spear for, you know, innovation globally, right? And we get to be in the best place in the world for that. And biotech is constantly pushing the envelope every day, going into new places, discovering new things, you know, biology, we haven’t even begun to really understand what biology is. We’re just scratching the surface and biotech is leading that every day and continuing to push the envelope. And so that’s that’s the beauty of this industry. There’s there’s so much risk. There’s so much failure. But there’s that goes with learning. Everything is an incremental gain, and we’re building every day on some of the failures, all of the successes. And that’s what biotech is all about for as much failure. There’s much, much more resilience in this industry and the people, uh, and I think that’s ultimately what what biotech is, is making those risks, knowing what we’re doing to move the envelope because if we’re not doing it, then it’s not going to happen. The last one is spread love and organizations. Think.

Jason Cordeiro: That one’s, I mean, we, Catherine, human body spread love in organizations and, you know, I think I strive to. Um, I, I, I think we want to bring a level of joy and authenticity, um, to everything that we do, and and I think that is how I want to be viewed as a leader, how I want, uh, my team to share themselves too, is, is authentically in caring about one another, caring about our shared mission. Um, and just being really passionate about it. So, um, yeah, it makes it makes the days very rewarding when you can when you can spread love in your organization.

Catharine Smith: Man, I totally agree. I think one of my 1st impressions of Jason was just how unbelievably kind he was both to myself and the team and our kind of newly forming partnership, but also to his team. Um, we spend so much time at work. You know, I think I mentioned this before, Najee, right? It’s one of the things that I love about your podcast, this idea of spread love in organizations. We spend so much time at work. Um, if it’s not a kind environment. It doesn’t have to be an easy environment, right? But if it’s not a kind and loving environment, that sounds like kind of a sad life, right? Um, so whether it’s within our own organizations or whether it’s through these amazing partnerships and the friendship that Jason and I have been able to form, like, what a, um, What a gift. What a gift.

Jason Cordeiro: For sure. One thing we didn’t even mention, but this is a great place to talk about spreading love, is that mass bio spread our love and brought the Tamir Institute into our into our office, and now Tamir Institute has a home, uh, in, in mass bio, mass bio. So we get to, uh, we get to see each other all the time and and continue the collaboration and and spread the love with both of our organizations together and it’s, uh, it’s really awesome.

Catharine Smith: It is awesome. MASPAR was so generous to make it, to make it cohabitation official with us. Um, and it’s been really awesome for us to just, we’re a small team at the Trinier Institute to really expand out into the unbelievable mass bio team. They’re so talented. And they’ve been so welcoming.

Naji Gehchan: Oh, this is this is so exciting. And this, I’m sure this computation will lead to even more innovation and more love as we’re talking about this, to make sure that we have a positive impact for patients. And I love how you always pray with Catherine, improving humanity. I love this framing you always have in mind. Any final word of wisdom for leaders in healthcare?

Catharine Smith: Uh, we need you. Healthcare need you and the world needs you. I think right now we’re living through a little bit of an inspiration deficit. Um, among other things, but we can call it an inspiration deficit, and so we need to. I get inspired every day, but the leaders that I need at Mass Bio, by our fellows and scholars and, um, it’s the greatest sort of experience that I’ve had in my life and my career being able to work with, um, such amazing and inspirational leaders. So please, please keep doing what you’re doing.

Jason Cordeiro: Yeah, I would say, You know, take a risk. Um, you risk every day on on the science that you’re doing and the work that you’re doing. So apply that same logic to leading people, and trusting yourself, and betting on yourself, um, because that’s where the unlock, the can happen. that’s where the potential is, uh, and you just got to have the confidence in yourself, that that you can be a leader. You can unlock the tools, uh, to do that. And I think that’s the more we are able to do that and pull the best out of people, the more successful have as an industry.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you both for being with me today. It was a lot of fun and I’ll be watching how this partnership will grow. I’m sure it would bring a ton of impact for the ecosystem and ultimately patience we serve. Thanks again for being with me today.

Catharine Smith: Thank you, you should come hang out with us.

Jason Cordeiro: Yeah, well, I’ll take the invitation. I will. I think there’s cold brew on tap or kombucha. It depends on the day, right, Jason, but please Sometimes it’s iced tea, but there’s always beverages available. And snacks. I’ll be there.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

I’m Naji your host, joined today by Moise Khairallah a serial entrepreneur and investor in pharmaceutical drug development and biotech. Moise acquired his experience over a 40-year period in diverse pharmaceutical environments including large pharma, contract research, and biotech. His latest startup venture is Emergo Therapeutics that develops drugs to modulate inflammatory cytokines and improve the functioning of the immune system in infectious disease indications. Emergo is his fifth biotech startup. Moise is also Chairman of the Board and co-Founder of QuatroBio, a biotech focused on developing drugs for central nervous system disorders. He is also currently on the Board of Directors of several startup companies in the pharmaceutical or information technology industries. Prior to these current positions, Moise co-founded Aerial BioPharma, which sold its major drug asset, Sunosi (solriamfetol), to Jazz Pharmaceuticals in early 2014. In 2010, Dr. Khayrallah was co-founder, President and CEO of Neuronex acquired by Acorda Therapeutics, and Addrenex Pharmaceuticals acquired in late 2009 by Shionogi. Moise holds a Ph.D in psychology from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and a Bachelor’s degree in psychology from the American University of Beirut. Moise is also actively involved with several entrepreneurial and non-profit networks in the United States and beyond. He currently serves as the Honorary Consul for Lebanon in NC, a position that allows him to assist the Lebanese American community and represent its interests in Lebanon and the US.

I could go on for hours about Moise’s remarkable journey, but it’s much better to hear it directly from him! Moise great to have you with me today.

Moise, you’ve had an extraordinary journey from studying psychology at UNC Chapel Hill after growing up and studying at American University of Beirut, to building multiple biotech companies. Take us back to the beginning, what shaped your path and ultimately led you into the world of biotech and entrepreneurship?

Moise Khairallah: Well, thank you. Thank you for this nice introduction, uh, more extensive than I was, uh, looking for, but I truly appreciate it.

Very kind of you. Uh, I have to say that, uh, I attribute a lot of my. Success eventually in the biopharma industry to my starting in Lebanon. I think, uh, my education here, the way we grew up, the chances we took to really grow and to achieve here, set the stage for quite a bit of what later became achievements for myself.

I never forgot where I started from and I was always very proud and very rooted in Lebanon and the community that I grew up in. Early on, I decided when I was studying at a UB that I was interested in research. I studied psychology and I dabbled in counseling and clinical psych, but I was always enthralled with the phenomena of the mind and trying to understand them.

So I really geared my program when I left and went to the United States for my PhD. I gave it squarely at research and I really perfected my skills and research methodology, uh, statistics and other, uh, core skills that allow researcher to take a program from point A to point B successfully. And that set the stage then for my entry into the pharmaceutical industry.

Without me, me expecting it, I, I never expected that I would be in pharma, but it turned out that the skills that I learned in psychology and in research were very applicable to the pharma industry. It was a different topic, a different content, but the methods were the same, and what could have been a disadvantage ended up being a huge advantage for me because a lot of my colleagues.

Who are MDs and PharmDs and PhDs in pharmacology never learn how to do research. They never teach you how to run clinical trials. They never teach you how to take a program from A to B. You may know the physiology very well, the biology very well, but, but my colleagues didn’t have a, any idea and, and I, I became the leader.

And how to run clinical trials, how to organize clinical programs, and what I lacked in the medicine and the biological sciences. I was able to supplement with skills for the team around me. It is truly in our industry. It is truly a team endeavor. You can never succeed alone. No matter how skilled you are, no matter how uh, uh, forceful you are and how courageous you are, you really need a great team around you.

And I was very successful in putting teams around me that led to my successes. And so I’m really very proud of this because I. I loved the moment I arrived in the pharmaceutical and biotech sciences. I just fell in love and I never left. I was working on products that made the real difference in people’s lives.

These were real products. They were not theoretical constructs, and I was able to really contribute my skills and have a very successful career. Never regretted it.

Naji Gehchan: Wow. And you’ve co-founded, uh, and founded several biotech companies, uh, over the past, uh, the past decades. What are the most important lessons you’ve learned about building companies and developing medicines in such high risk industry?

Moise Khairallah: Yes. And so, uh, after an initial period of working in large companies like Lao Wellcome and and others, I decided that the small company environment is my. My environment, I always shaved at, uh, bureaucracy. Uh, my Lebanese entrepreneurial skills were in high gear, and I always thinking, oh, gee, I can do this better.

I can do this faster. I, I wish we would get rid of this X, Y, Z. So I was always shaping to do things better, faster, and then looking for avenues to develop drugs in a more efficient way. And so this really became the. The mandate for the companies that I launched, they had to be very small companies. Uh, I never had a core team more than about 10 to 12 people.

Of course, our research reached hundreds of people because we were running large clinical trials, but anything we did not have on, on board as a core team, we supplemented with contract work and on demand. Uh, skills if you want. And so this, uh, idea of looking at drug development from a different angle became my key signature for developing the companies that I did.

And we, my team and I perfected this model of looking. Uh, drugs that were already on the market already approved for one indication or maybe studied extensively for one indication and rethinking their used in other areas where we had a good reason to believe that they could be successful in those new areas.

That allowed us to capitalize on a lot of data that was already generated. Mostly safety data, because that’s really the biggest concern for the FDA and then developing programs that were fast, nimble, and that got us. An answer quickly whether a product could be repositioned into another therapeutic area successfully.

And then we never had any ambitions for building large organizations with marketing and sales on, because that was not the skills set that I had. So we focused on getting a drug to a, a position where it proved it’s worth in a new therapeutic area, and then selling the whole company, the whole drug to another.

Larger organization, pharmaceutical company that could then take it into the market and then do the deal. And then we would benefit from upfront milestones and royalties, which was very successful for my partners and my investors. And so we perfected this model. Of moving nimbly, capitalizing on data that’s already available, and then developing a drug beyond what it’s or originally been, uh, its potential.

And that became very successful. I have to say that several others after me started learning from this and then started the same, the same type of capitalizing on data before, which when I first started, people were shaking their heads and it was, it was really funny. The other thing that, uh, that was very, very important for me is to have the courage to take risks, and that’s something that I realized was lacking in my industry.

Large pharmaceutical companies are very, very risk averse. FDA is very risk averse. There is a lot of fear because of course we have patients’ lives and safety in our hands, and so people are very, very careful and the pharma industry in general is very conservative. So by deploying a little bit of courage and not being foolish.

My, my, uh, my, uh, line to my, uh, staff was that there is a line of foolishness and you have to step up all the way up to this line of foolishness without crossing it. Of course, if you cross it, you’ll die, but if you stay far back, you will also die because you have not taken the steps to really push the agenda.

And so this idea of being courageous enough to undertake something that scares others became also very important in our success.

Naji Gehchan: Well, I, I, I love those and certainly relate to your impatience and moving fast and trying to do it better. Uh, you know, as also Lebanese, uh, I, I, I wonder that a pick actually on this, uh, I like this concept of line of foolishness, as you called it, and you, you need to go and.

And as you said, like there’s always this balance of the risks we are managing, you know, for, for patients. Uh, so help me, how, how do you, especially when you’re leading teams who are doing this. How can you always reinforce this balance to make sure that you’re taking the appropriate risks and never crossing this line?

Do you have, do you have some sort of a magic way of dealing with it? Is it, it does, it boils down to people’s own personal integrity line, or what is it? I’d love to talk about this.

Moise Khairallah: It’s, it’s kind of a little bit of a complex construct. I don’t know if you’ve ever read, uh, Malcolm Gladwell’s book B Blink.

Uh, I, I love this book, and b, blink is truly this. Uh, it, it, if, if you want, encapsulates a little bit how my team and I operate, that is an element of knowing something without knowing that, you know. And it’s not intuition. People talk about intuition. It’s really not that. It’s built for years after doing something again and again, and again and again, and you start seeing patterns that are, excuse me, visible.

Visible and to you, but they’re not visible to others. And so when you look at, uh, when, let’s say you look at, you’re looking at the drug and you’re trying to decide how, how much can I push this? Is this, am I getting into. Into a danger territory where I is dying here, or am I still in, in, in, in a safe area?

Just shy of dying if you want. And this, this, there is no rule book for that. There is no, nobody tells you. There’s not little person on your shoulder that says, wait, wait, wait. You’ve crossed the line. Be be careful, come back, et cetera. It’s something that you have to make up on the go all the time. And, and really there is no formula for it except you have done this so many times before and you have seen patterns that are clear to you but not to others.

And, and this is if you want, the magic there is not really a, it’s not magic, it’s just this experience of doing something again and again. For example, my first drug, my very first entrepreneurial company. We developed a drug that was originally developed for hypertension, but it is not a drug that works on blood vessels in the body.

It works centrally in the brain, so it tones down NORAD adrenalin in the brain and leads to reducing the, the pressure in the in the veins because it’s centrally activated. My partner in that very first company started using this drug that was developed for hypertension in A DHD in children in attention deficit hyperactivity disorder in children.

It turns out that the same mechanism that causes hypertension in adults also causes A DHD in children because it’s centrally activated and it causes these bursts of impulsivity and hyperactivity in children. And so my partner, who was an MD in North Carolina, in Charlotte at the time, developed an extended release version of this drug called Clonidine.

And started using it in his patients to great effect, but he had no idea how to develop drugs. He was a clinician. He was just using it for his patients. So he and I are talking with me, examining this opportunity to develop this drug, and it just made sense to me. Why, because I had developed earlier drugs by lengthening their effect, using a, an extender of the effect of the drug.

And I saw that you could blunt the peaks and, and even the drugs and lead to a successful drug. And so what he was telling me just made sense. And I had developed a drug that was initially for, for, uh, depression in the smoking cessation, nicotine craving arena. So I knew that you could do this, you could take a drug and really, if, you know, so stuff made sense to me when it didn’t to others.

That formed the basis of my first, very first company that was a successful one, and we exited the, uh, the company and rewarded our investors. And so it is this knowing, without knowing why you know it at some level, that really allows you to get the courage to say, yes, I’m gonna take this on and I’m gonna try it.

And I, I have, I have good confidence. I’m not 100% sure you can never be 100% sure of anything, but I have high confidence that it would work because of X, Y, and z.

Naji Gehchan: I love this. And it’s, it’s, you know, I’ve been thinking recently a lot about exactly what you said, this, this capability of pattern recognition, you know, on the science side, on the people side too, right.

And really understanding where things might be going. So I’ve been thinking a lot about pattern recognition. I love that you brought it up. Uh, do you think like that’s when you’re thinking about how you’ve built biotech and really this intersection of. Science business and people you thought, you started by saying it’s all about the teams and the people you have around you.

Um, so what, what would be, what would it take if you, if, if you’re talking to startups, entrepreneurs, and you do this quite frequently and you’re one of the most successful ones, what would it take actually to take an idea to patients, basically from an idea to patients at the intersection of these three aspects?

Moise Khairallah: Well first we have to be realistic. For example, if you are tackling a, a very tough area, let’s say Alzheimer’s or autism or cancer, we have to be realistic that a small company has to be really niched so well and, and can limit its action to a very narrow place to, to be successful because truly. These constructs that we call cancer or we call Alzheimer’s, are not really one disease.

They are a huge collection of diseases, and because we don’t understand them well, we really lump them all under this one umbrella because of the end result. But the causes are so diverse that. You don’t really have a chance. That’s why, for example, nearly all the drugs in Alzheimer’s have so far failed.

All we can do is just delay some of the symptomatology. So you have to start with the realistic. Uh, assessment of what your chances of success, and again, this comes from having done something repeatedly. So, for example, that’s why I never tackled cancer. Even though cancer is a very important therapeutic area and we need to devote their attention to it, but I deem that larger setups or people who are very knowledgeable in very, very narrow, specific field that can tackle a specific drug or disease, have a chance of success.

So you have to start with some realistic assessment of your chances. That’s why I tackled, for example, diseases that I know very well in the neurology or in the psychiatry arena. And then again, narrowed down my, my, uh, scope. And so it can be done, but you have to be, uh, realistic. Not all companies can be entrepreneurial companies.

There. We have to spend. Money. We have to spend a lot of resources to tackle the big constructs. And by the way, with ai, we have a chance Before ai, I don’t think we, it is, it was gonna be years and years and years because we cannot control, we cannot have adequate controls in our clinical trials. And control is the key.

To demonstrating efficacy and safety and without proper control, which we were lacking. When we have these gigantic constructs, that group multiple diseases underneath them, AI is gonna be the tool that’s gonna allow us to feed in all of this data into a machine learning system that has a faster and much better chance at seeing linkages and correlations that we human beings, would take us a hundred years to see.

So I am excited about the future and probably with AI tools. A smaller organization may finally have the chance to gather data from multiple sources to where they can make a difference. But it has to start with the realistic and and modest assessment of what you can do in Lebanon specifically. I’m very excited.

I’ve been talking to the leaders of Biolink about what can we do to really encourage the sector in Lebanon, and I think with ai. And we don’t, we don’t necessarily have to limit to very esoteric diseases like some sort of rare cancer that only happens in the Middle East or some sort of a genetic disease or something.

Those are obviously some things we can pursue. I think we can go after bigger targets and more meaningful ones using AI tools and by having a realistic assessment of what we can do. I think we have a shot, but it’s gonna take some doing.

Naji Gehchan: So Maiz, you, you are saying you started with realism, which is certainly something important.

Like, and it is some, I’ve seen it time and time again where people struggle on, on like really being humble and realistic on even what their asset, what their drug or the company is actually doing and solving for, right? And what it does not, you know, so really understanding the clear value, but then you continued on this future, right?

Ai, the futuristic approach that we’re seeing. So I would love to hear your view of how do you see this future? You’ve done this for several decades, you’re excited about ai. Why, why, where do you see the most incredible breakthrough happening in the next five to 10 years? In medicine,

Moise Khairallah: it’s again, in the, um, being able to break down, uh, in my opinion.

My, my modest, uh, uh, opinion, it’s being able to break down what are umbrella diseases into smaller silos that we can tackle one at a time. And the reason we haven’t been able to do that is because we lack control. Let, let me explain to you, when we are on a clinical trial, we, the, the, the gold standard, the best tool we have is what’s called a double blind placebo controlled trial.

Meaning what? Meaning you take a group of people that you think are homogenous, are the same. They all have quote unquote Alzheimer’s disease or they have depression or they have, uh, cancer of the ovary or what have you, right? You take these, this group and you do your atmos best to, uh, show that at baseline before you give them any drug.

They are similar. Right, and then what you do is you split them into two or three or four, four groups, what have you. One of them is a placebo. When you can, in some diseases you can, but most often you can. And the others take some sort of a drug or a combination of drugs or different dosages. And then what you’re doing is you are using your placebo as your control to show that your drug.

Which in this case is a placebo has x effect, but your drug will have Y effect. And the measure and the measure between the two can be statistically shown to be statist statistically, uh, efficacious, meaning positive. The problem with that is that we have no idea truly because we are latching onto some very simplistic assessments, that the group is the same when you first start.

And so what is your control may not be a control for everybody because this is a heterogeneous group of people, not homogenous. And so because your group is also not represented the same in the placebo group, so the control is, is flawed. So far, we don’t know. We don’t know how to assess that these people are similar.

It’s like doing surgery with a hatch check. So we go in and we try, we, we do our best. We, we, we, we thought when we had the. Uh, broken the human genome that we had it figured out because we could figure out the differences between people on gene on the genome, but it’s way more complex than that because you have to turn the genes on and off, and you have to also assess not your genes, but also the genes of the biome in use.

It’s just way more complicated. So this, this problem, the lack of control cannot be solved by us because we, we cannot do indeterminate clinical trials with peoples, with peoples. The only way to do it is by feeding the data into a faster learning system than our simple human brain system, which is still very complex, complex, but still nowhere near what machine learning can do so that it teases apart all of these variable.

Maybe the, this group seems similar, uh, on the surface, but when you look at their biome, they have certain genes in their biome that differentiate them. Now, all of a sudden you have maybe, wow, this may be the key here. I’ve been missing that. For example, we know that in Parkinson’s disease, the effect the effectiveness of, of the, uh, drugs of choice for Parkinson’s are impacted by the, by the gut.

They’re impacted by the proteins that you take along with the drug. But, but we cannot measure. It’s too complicated to measure. With ai, if you feed those data points one by one, AI system can really learn. I’m not an expert on ai. I want to learn more. But my feeling is that as we move forward with the help of ai, a smaller group of people or a smaller organization will have a chance to isolate certain, promising, uh, tidbits of data and then build a study with adequate control so we can then really come to faster at the solution.

And this is where my hope is.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah, this is, uh, for, for sure, like when you look at these things, uh, the, the possibilities are extremely exciting. You know, I think we’re just at the very start of, of the hype, but it’s gonna be real for medicine and it’s, uh, it’s truly is super exciting. Uh, uh, Moise, I’m gonna give you a word now and I would love your first reaction to it.

And the first word is leadership.

Moise Khairallah: Um, courage.

Naji Gehchan: So tell me a little bit more about this. Especially, you know, we’ve, you’ve led through a lot of what we call uncertainty, and I think, uh, for people like us, uncertainty is multiplied by, I don’t know how much, I don’t want to give a number, uh, but I’d love your perspective a little bit more about courage.

Moise Khairallah: So you, you have to inspire people. If, if you are very cautious and you are, uh, always afraid of what your actions are gonna do, then um, it, it is not inspiring you. You have to really, you have to have the courage of your conviction. You have to move. You cannot be paralyzed by fears of what could happen. I having studied psychology, I’ve always felt that fear is the biggest motivator, positive and negative in the lives of, of human beings.

In as much as we can conquer our fear, it is that we can achieve because fear makes you do stuff that you should not do and prevents you from doing stuff that you should do. And so I, for in my mind. This ability to not be paralyzed but move forward inspires people and they kinda see it and they are encouraged to continue, continue working because what we do in the biological sciences and the health sciences is tough.

We have a responsibility for people’s lives and their health and wellbeing first, which is very serious. We have agencies that are watching us like hawks. Uh, we have investors that are impatient and they wanna see results. It’s a, it’s a recipe for disaster if you don’t, if you’re not courageous. But at the same time, as we said earlier.

Have the sense of a line of foolishness and not really be completely oblivious to danger because you could hurt people. And so this, uh, and I’ve experienced that again and again and again in my very first, uh, clinical program, in my entrepreneurial companies, I didn’t have all the resources to run huge clinical trials, so we had to take risks.

Where do you take the risk? Where, where, where do you get the courage to say something like. I had a clinical trial with four arms, and I knew for certain I could not do one placebo versus three arms. I had to lock one of the active arms, and I locked the one that seemed to my clinicians who were working with me and my investors to be the one I should not lock.

So everybody was up in arms. How do you, what do you mean you killed that particular arm? I said, look, I’ve reviewed the literature exhaustively. I’ve really been thinking about this. I think we have a very high chance of succeeding. It’s gonna take some risk, but otherwise we would not be able to run the trial.

And this, this courage really inspired my team to keep going and we ended up succeeding. Success was not guaranteed. You, you, when you, when you’re an entrepreneur, you have to be realistic about that. Uh, we run trouble in my last companies. Uh, but my very last company, because we ran the major clinical trial in the middle of the pandemic of the COVID Pandemic, and it really hurt us.

And so success is never guaranteed, but without discourage, you can’t get anything done. You just get paralyzed and everybody just loses speed because if you wait until everything is crosschecked and, and all i’s are dotted, and t’s are crossed, you don’t get anywhere.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. And I, I love this. It’s really profound what you said about fear.

Being in its positive or negative. It’s, I, I love this. The second word is legacy.

Moise Khairallah: Oh, this is very loaded to me because, uh, I am in the middle of that right now. It’s really ensuring that what you received gets transmitted. None of us is just perfect as we are. None of us just grows out of nothing. None of us just is so accomplished that we can do everything on our own. We are always indebted to a lot of people who came before us and who were thinking of us without knowing who we are.

And for me, this is very meaningful because I would not be here without a ton of people who came before me and did things to make me. To increase my chance of success without even knowing who I am. I’m talking about my family, my ancestors. I’m talking about my village, I’m talking about my country, uh, and these, all of these institutions and people that made me, who are who I am, who not by chance.

They were really there because they thought that at some time a young kid like me who grew up in a small village here in Lebanon will need this, and this is a chance for us for him to succeed. The people who left the WAF in my village, for example, my parents, my family, uh, my school, I went to the Paris Brothers School here in Ville.

And it’s really the result of long-term thinking about what young kids like me, Lebanon, would need. I went to A-U-B-A-U-B itself is an institution that was formed with the view of, of helping young people in Lebanon like me achieve higher education. All of these people, institutions that made me who I, I am, I cannot forget them.

And my part is to continue the legacy that started with them so that my, the children in the next generation and the next generations are also the recipients of this goodwill like I was. And that is my legacy at the moment. So I am back in Lebanon. I am fully in regardless of the difficult circumstances the country is in.

I am all in for Lebanon right now. Everything I’m doing, whether it be NGOs, whether it be on the board of universities, whether it be in schools, whether it be in my village, in my, in my, uh, parish, up there in my family, I am all in to continue this legacy of goodwill towards the people who are gonna come after me.

Naji Gehchan: Wow. Beautiful. The third one is biolink.org.

Moise Khairallah: Ah, I am, excitement is the, uh, is the word. I could not, uh, be more thankful to my friend Francois, uh, when he mentioned Biolink to me, because I think that. Um, we have a very good chance. We have been, we have been successful in the past, in the, if you want, the life sciences as evidenced by work that was done at a UB and other institutions like that and, uh, USG, et cetera.

So we are, we can be successful, but we’ve run through a lot of difficulties. There have been so many obstacles that decimated our abilities in the past, but we have to rebuild that, and I think that Biolink is a fantastic organization. Because it is really the link between the, the Lebanese who are here in the country and the Lebanese that are, that are distributed all across the world.

And we are truly unique in that Lebanon is truly unique. I’m working, I launched a new, another organization called Lebanon and Beyond that tries to build bridges between the diaspora and, and the country. And, and Biolink is one such instrument. Because everywhere you go, you find people of Lebanese descent who are very accomplished in the life sciences, in biotechnology and pharmaceutical research.

And we have to marshal those resources because I think they could be tremendously helpful for not just the country here, but also the communities that are outside and the whole wide world around those communities. And so I’m really excited. About the chance to marshal these resources. And it’s not enough to just basically be there as advisors.

It’s great when they do networking, it’s great when they do training, when they do mentoring, et cetera, but I think we can work on something more substantial. And I’ve been talking to Francois quite a bit about that. It’s to really. Use the skills, the resources, financial and brain and otherwise to really improve the status of life sciences in Lebanon and use it actually to improve life science research and accomplishments all over the world, not just in Lebanon.

I’m very excited for Biolink. I just joined just a few months ago and very happy to be on the board. Closely coordinating with, uh, with and on that. So I’m, I’m excited about the future.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. Well, I, I am excited too. I, and I’m biased. I’ve been with Biolink for a couple of years now. Um, the last one is spread love in organizations.

Moise Khairallah: Spread love and organization. Yes.

Naji Gehchan: In organizations, yeah,

Moise Khairallah: in organizations. Well, I don’t want to be, uh, hokey, but love conquers all in the end. I, I truly believe that, and I think that we have plenty of that here in Lebanon. However, uh, it’s been suppressed by a lot of fear. We go back to fear and when, whenever you are in a fearful and, uh, anxiety and anxious state, you tend to retreat.

And this is one of the problems in fear, and then you lose this ability to spread love, you lose, you lose this ability to see the other human being as your equal. All of a sudden we are just retreating each one of us in our own world. And then this causes all the mayhem and all of the, uh, destruction that we see around us.

I am somebody who is intent on doing the opposite. I’m not gonna be afraid. Uh, I know that all of the barriers that are, that have been erected either by either willfully or just because of the circumstances between people can be dismantled. It’s gonna take a lot of work. I’m not very optimistic for our organ, for our generation because I feel that we have been so traumatized by the events and not just Lebanon, but all over the world, that we lack clarity.

We are kind of boxed into our us versus them thinking. That’s why in my new organization, Lebanon and Beyond, I’m focusing on the next generation because I think we have to give them the tools to not repeat the same mistakes that we did, and I think we can do that. If we start now, we cannot leave it to chance.

We have to use the tools that are at our disposal and equip this next generation. We are working very hard on that in Lebanon and beyond, but I’m also trying to do it in everything I do in my hometown in Lebanon overall. So. I, I am a preacher for peace and love, and I just, uh, will do everything I can to continue doing that and, and hope that, and I’m, I’m not just hope.

I’m confident that a lot of people feel like me and are joining in, so I’m excited about the potential.

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom? Uh, for healthcare leaders?

Moise Khairallah: For healthcare leaders?

Naji Gehchan: Yes.

Moise Khairallah: Um, re repeating some of the highlights from what I said earlier. First, have the courage of conviction in your, in, in, in your potential.

While at the same time, be realistic and, and clearly identify this line of foolishness that I talked about. And then second. No matter how great you are, no matter how skilled you are, no matter how accomplished or how knowledgeable you are, you cannot do it alone. Our industry is very complex. It deals with people’s lives.

It deals with diseases that have really eluded us for so long because they are just heterogeneous and difficult to tackle. So surround yourself with skill with people who are skilled, more skilled than you, and then have the courage to just lead, but then let them come and get together in order to use their collective power to solve these problems.

We can solve them. And it’s gonna take a lot of work, but we are capable of doing it if we deploy the right tools and the right teams for that.

Naji Gehchan: Oh, that’s, that was great. Thank you so much, Maiz, for joining me. It’s been a real honor and pleasure to have you with me today.

Moise Khairallah: The honor and the pleasure of all mine.

And I wish you the best as you continue your collection of these, uh, uh, episodes and call on me anytime. I’m very happy to be here and, uh, reconnect with you again, and I will see you I’m sure at one of the Biolink uh, events.

Naji Gehchan: Yes. Yes, you all. Thanks for listening to the show. More episodes in partnership with biolink.org can be found on our respective websites.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

I’m Naji, your host, joined today by Kylie Wagner, a commercial executive with more than 20 years of experience leading growth, portfolio performance, and launches across rare, specialty, and chronic markets. Kylie currently leads marketing and business unit customer engagement at Takeda, where she is responsible for commercial strategy and P&L performance for a complex portfolio. Her work centers on translating scientific innovation into real-world adoption by aligning strategy, access, and customer engagement. She builds organizations grounded in trust and accountability so teams can perform in uncertainty and turn strategy into consistent results. In addition to her commercial leadership roles, she previously served as Chief of Staff to the U.S. Business Unit President, supporting enterprise strategy across the organization. Kylie holds an Executive MBA from MIT Sloan, and this is how we met. Kylie, I’m really excited to have you with me today.

Kylie Wagner: Yes, thank you so much. I appreciate you bringing me on your show.

Naji Gehchan: Of course. Well, we’ll start where we always do. Tell us your story. What shaped you, and how did you find your way into commercial leadership and healthcare?

Kylie Wagner: Yeah, like many people, there are a few experiences that really shaped how I think and how I operate. I’d be remiss if I didn’t start where I grew up. I’m a Midwestern girl. I grew up in the Midwest, and I really grew up in two different environments. That showed me early on that performance is often reflected by the system you operate within, because capabilities can exist in any environment. Because of that system and opportunities, I was also able to take advantage of being a successful athlete. I was a competitive tennis player growing up and played through college. That showed me early that results are really driven through consistency, structure, and preparation. Many times, what I learned through it is that what you hope to achieve doesn’t always work out, and so you learn resilience and how to rethink things. As I reflect on my 20 years in the industry, in commercial roles across rare, specialty, and chronic therapeutic areas, I’ve gained a different perspective. I’m able to identify patterns maybe that others don’t see, and I’ve really built this enterprise lens that has become my decision-making framework as a business leader. A lot of those experiences taught me that outcomes rarely come from a singular team, but more so from how business decisions are made in organizations — or not made. If you better understand those systems and design that through teams, you can help impact patient care, which ultimately is why I’m here.

Naji Gehchan: I love this. And you immediately went into systems. I have in mind all the system dynamics we certainly worked through at MIT. But it’s really an important piece, right? The environment creates those systems and the culture for people to be at their best. Before diving into strategy and how you lead this, why healthcare? How did you end up at Takeda from being a tennis player and all that you had done before?

Kylie Wagner: Great question. My decision to get into pharma is actually very personal. Growing up, I watched my father, who was a veteran, struggle with mental health. Outcomes became very real to me early on, watching the complexity of how my parents navigated that. For me, it became real that to truly make an impact, you have to think differently. Joining this industry was about trying to be a voice for patients who didn’t necessarily have that voice themselves. That’s really my North Star.

Naji Gehchan: That’s powerful. Tell me more about strategy. This is what you do today, and a lot of people dream about doing strategy and influencing especially in our industry. As you think about team strategy, execution, and operations, where do you most see strategy actually failing, and how do you ensure it turns into impact for patients?

Kylie Wagner: That’s a great question because there’s always a lot of talk about strategy. You absolutely have to get it right. You need a solid commercial strategy that drives a brand or a portfolio, but also the bigger enterprise goals. It also has to create competitive advantage, especially in a noisy environment. But I think where organizations fail is execution. We don’t always get the execution right. Decisions, especially in large matrix organizations, can get stalled. If you don’t have a clear operating structure and the ability to move decisions forward faster, ultimately patients don’t get helped. So all that great strategic work goes down the tubes. It doesn’t matter how great your strategy is if you can’t execute it.

Naji Gehchan: Let me go there because it’s always extremely important to set the strategy. But when I talk with people earlier in their careers, there’s often a lot of talk about wanting to be in strategy and not operations. What is your perspective on that?

Kylie Wagner: My diversity of experience has taught me that operations matter. Actually, it’s embedded in everything that you do. You’re not going to sit around a room and just talk about strategy if you can’t deliver it. It’s the day-to-day execution of how you build operating systems within your teams and cross-functional ecosystem that drives progress. Operations is embedded in everything, and those decisions then drive the culture you build and the teams able to deliver innovation. Strategy doesn’t live by itself, even though job descriptions sometimes make it seem that way.

Naji Gehchan: You mentioned team culture. In a volatile environment like biotech and pharma, how do you build a team that can perform under uncertainty rather than be overwhelmed by it?

Kylie Wagner: That’s imperative in healthcare today. I always like to challenge teams toward innovation — fail fast, try things differently. We have to get out of traditional ways of thinking for commercial models and portfolios. Yes, fundamentals matter, but there are also digital solutions that help us connect with patients faster. I try to embed a curious mindset into teams and leverage their expertise. People often think leaders need all the answers, but I actually believe if you build a team with a great mix of experiences and pause to listen and ask great questions, you unlock talent and pure innovation ideas that can truly change how we work. That’s when it starts to get really fun.

Naji Gehchan: Something you anchored on is trust and accountability as you build organizations. Tell me more about your philosophy on leadership.

Kylie Wagner: My leadership philosophy has evolved over time with experience — doing things right and wrong. I think about it as slowing down to speed up. Slowing down becomes critically important when you lead larger teams. You can’t do everything yourself. As a former competitive athlete, I like to win and drive results relentlessly. But when you lead people leaders, you have to learn how to execute through others. Slowing down means teaching them how to evaluate trade-off decisions, understand enterprise strategy, and see how today’s decisions impact future launches and portfolios. By building judgment in others, they’re able to drive the business, and that’s when speed really happens.

Naji Gehchan: Do you have any tips about building trust?

Kylie Wagner: First, you start with trust. I assume the best intentions in people, and I treat others the way I want to be treated. It sounds basic, but it has a real place in business. You can be accountable, deliver, and still have mutual respect. The way you build it is by spending time with people and building relationships. Through that, they become vulnerable with you and vice versa. That trust strengthens. Then, when you are in crisis or under extreme pressure, people know how you operate, and they know that very few decisions are irreversible. That creates the environment where people thrive.

Naji Gehchan: As you think about the next generation of healthcare commercial leaders, what mindset or capability will differentiate those who truly shape the future?

Kylie Wagner: How quickly we lean into digital technology and data-driven decision-making. The next generation is already ahead of us in many ways. I love building teams that have those strengths so they can teach others. Organizations also need to be willing to challenge the status quo and take chances on doing things differently if we truly want to reshape the industry.

Naji Gehchan: I’m going to give you a word, and I’d love the first thing that comes to mind. Leadership.

Kylie Wagner: Role modeling, trusting your team, and creating an environment where they can achieve both their goals and the organization’s.

Naji Gehchan: Pharma.

Kylie Wagner: Responsibility. We all have a responsibility to find better ways to reach patients, help patients, and move faster. If we can’t create and execute a commercial strategy, then we’ve done a disservice to people.

Naji Gehchan: EMBA.

Kylie Wagner: The best professional gift I could have given myself. I learned frameworks that I apply daily. It helped me identify problems faster and build sustainable solutions, plus an amazing community.

Naji Gehchan: Do you have a preferred framework?

Kylie Wagner: One of the early frameworks we learned in organizational processes — the three lenses. It pops up every day. Culture, structure and strategy, and the political lens are all critical to move decisions through an organization.

Naji Gehchan: The last word is spread love in organizations.

Kylie Wagner: For me, spreading love starts with respect. Respect is also shown through clarity — clarity in priorities and decisions. Reducing confusion helps people be successful in both the short and long term.

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom for leaders around the world?

Kylie Wagner: I would challenge all of us to think differently in our industry and remember why we got into healthcare, pharma, and biotech — ultimately to help patients. We need to rethink our commercial organizations and models, embed more of a digital-first approach, and move decisions faster. Patients cannot and should not wait.

Naji Gehchan: Every day spent debating or dealing with internal barriers is a day less that a patient can get their treatment and feel better. With this, thank you so much, Kylie, again for being with me today and for this great chat.

Kylie Wagner: Thank you very much.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

I am Naji your host. Joined today by Elisabetta Vitali, executive Director of the Giovanni Armenise Harvard Foundation, a role she has held since February, 2025. After more than a decade of leading the Foundation’s Italian program.

The foundation’s mission is to support world class scientific research and foster collaboration between Italy and the United States. Before joining them in 2014, beta built a successful career in investment banking and infrastructure finance. She served as vice president at Lazar and Co, where she advised leading European corporations on mergers, acquisitions, and complex cross-border transactions.

Totaling more than 3.5 billion euros. She later joined a EDS supporting the firm’s international expansion and fund management strategy and became one of the investment partners as, um, at F two i’s SGR Italy’s largest infrastructure fund. When she oversaw major transactions, contributing to a portfolio, exceeding 2 billion euros.

Drawing on her financial and strategic background is Abeta transitioned on the nonprofit sector. Where she has since applied the same rigor and long-term vision to advancing science excellence and collaboration across Boston and Italy, a graduate of Boone University with full honors in economics and social disciplines.

It is Abeta is known for her ability to connect people and ideas across sectors and borders and commitment to translating strategy into lasting impact for science and society. Beta, it is great to have you with me today and see you again.

Elisabetta Vitali: Thank you Naji, for having me. It’s always great to have the opportunity to talk about the foundation’s work

Naji Gehchan: before going there.

I always love starting with the person behind the role. Uh, what’s the story of how you find, uh, your way, how you found your way, uh, to this work?

Elisabetta Vitali: It’s, uh, it’s, it has been. Really by chance in a way, and thank to a friend who knew me very well. So when I decided to, um, stop working in finance and, uh, uh, dedicate my my days just to.

I mean to, to the care of my daughters, which is not a small task. Uh, he, um, after maybe two months that I was doing that, he told me, you cannot do this anymore. And he, um, brought to my attention the foundation, and I have to say. It was really, I felt like, you know, destiny was, uh, in front of me in a way because I, um, I had been sick previously in 2008 and I always felt I had a big, uh, um, that towards scientists and physicians and the science in general really.

I’m also a daughter of a chemist who, um, dedicated this work in, uh, creating new drugs and, and, uh, medication. So it was part of my, um, family history and also, you know, um, when you, um, emigrate. You sort of become weirdly more attached to your country of origin in a way. So the foundation combined these, um, two unique perspective of me being able to try and give back to science, even though of course it’s that I will never, you know, completely, um, you know, fulfill of course this mission.

And, uh, uh, also, uh, do something to. Keep contributing in building growth, economic growth, and scientific growth in my country of origin. That is Italy.

Naji Gehchan: So I’d love to, uh, kind of double click and build on this, uh, especially moving from finance, as you said, and running multi-billion, uh, dollar acquisitions, funds, et cetera.

Uh, what, what are the moments or choices that most shaped your journey from finance to now? Philanthropy and science?

Elisabetta Vitali: It was gradual, and I didn’t even. Understand that I was going to do that because I, to be honest, I, I really loved my work in finance and I, I, I guess I’m a very lucky person, so I was always able to, uh, to do, uh, something I was very passionate about and I, it was very rewarding for me.

But when I moved to the US in 2009, I had just recovered from my disease. I mean, I, I’m, I’m lacking and I have a couple of very rare diseases, but there is a treatment for all of them. So I guess I’m, I’m really lucky. But of course, it was the first time that I got sick. And it is, I guess, true that when you are.

Sick. I’m also a very dramatic person, so it wasn’t nothing maybe that serious, but you know, it gave me the opportunity to, um, to slow down a bit and really try to see what I was also missing about my daughter’s life. I know it, it’s, it’s pretty standard, uh, story, but I really, I really enjoyed going to work every day.

I thought I was doing the best things for my daughter, which I think I did, but also it wasn’t enough anymore, so I thought, uh, I wanted to still be able to serve right. I outside my family too, but I wanted to have more time to, to try to balance everything a little bit more. And so that I was part of it.

And, and to be honest, I always enjoyed this perspective of, uh, contributing to, um, of course to my own wellbeing. But I always saw, even when I was in finance, in private equity, I thought we were actually bid something that would impact. More people, right. Contributing to economic growth. That to me, it’s sort of the baseline for freedom and, and, uh, equity and everything.

So weirdly, I thought I was already doing social works while I was in private equity. Maybe a bit less in mergers and acquisition, but definitely in private equity. So when, uh, I got to know the foundation more. It just, I was, without even knowing it, that was exactly what I needed. And I would be remiss, I, if I wouldn’t, um, say, you know, that a big part of it was also my, um, former boss Lisa Mayor, who, uh, being, um, so honored to work with for over 12 years.

She is a very, um, competent. Knowledgeable, personable, um, individual. And she really, um, we really clicked. So it was, uh, a fortuitous but very, um, you know, meaningful encounter for me.

Naji Gehchan: So let’s go now into the foundation. ’cause you, you’re sharing how meaningful that was as a shift, uh, and how you found yourself basically.

And now you’ve been more than 10 years and now running the foundation. Tell us a bit, a little bit more about what drew you to the mission, uh, and what keeps you inspired today, uh, through the work you do.

Elisabetta Vitali: Yes. What drew me to the mission, as I said, was. Part, uh, in part the memories of my father who was, uh, always involved in, uh, drug discovery and development.

So, um, you know, it was always in my purview. Since college, I would say, you know, my, uh, thesis took graduation thesis was the, um. Selection process for r and d projects in, uh, in, uh, biotech and pharma. So I, I think I was always interested in that. Uh, but really also my experience as, uh, with my disease and the, um, really the understanding of, uh, how, you know, discoveries can really.

Change the destiny and the faith and the wellbeing of people even I know, you know, it was clear, but it’s a different, for me, it was very different to really experiencing it on my own skin. You know, at the time when I, I was, I got sick the first time. Um, my kids were really young. As I said, I’m pretty dramatic.

So, you know, I, I am, I was really scared about not being able, you know, to be with them and to see them grow and, and all of this. And so the sense of, uh, of, uh, having to give something back to, uh, the scientific community really resonated with me. And then the more I got to know, uh, the scientists themselves, not only our grantees, but all the scientists were a part of our review committees.

And I just fell in love with the humanity of, uh, each of them. And so, and when I see also, um. You know, in Italy, uh, scientists are really mistreated in a way that, uh, as in many other, um, profession, but especially in science and university, the personal compensation of, of scientists is really, um, very, very limited.

The um. Career development opportunities are also, um, sparse, I would say, because of a system that is pretty, you know, uh, let’s say we can work on meritocracy. And so, uh, when you see the dedication these, these people have and uh, um, the passion they put in their work. I really felt, you know, I really wanted to have them out as much as possible.

So it was a, it was a combination of self, um, um, you know, just this sense of gratitude towards science and scientist, and then really falling in love with our communities.

Naji Gehchan: Well, this is, this is great. So can, can you help, um, the listeners understand a little bit more? I know you’re eager also to share more about the foundation and the work you guys do in research.

Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Elisabetta Vitali: Of course, the beginnings of the foundation are already rooted in a laugh story, I guess even with a one with, with a, a said ending, unfortunately. The founder, Giovanni Aletta, um, came in contact with the Harvard Medical School 30 years ago to be precise because his, um, spouse was affected by a glioblastoma and after seeking treatment, uh, everywhere in Italy and in Europe, they landed in in Boston.

And uh, and unfortunately they had to. They had to, um, realize that not only there were no treatment available, but there wasn’t really the, the basic understanding of how the disease was, uh, working, how it was generated and, and all of this. And in his, um, that there, I would say generosity and, uh. Vision, they found the main team themself to have the, the clarity to, um, launch a partnership with Harvard Medical School to fund the basic science research, both at HMS and in Italy.

Having understood that without the really the basic understanding of these, uh, biological processes, there is really not much progress that could be achieved. And so, um, everything started because of a personal, uh, struggle anyway. And, uh, it is really fantastic to see that 30 years later. We were really able to, um, make this dream.

The desire of our, uh, founder really, um, come to fruition and become a reality. And so the way we do that. Is through different grants and and program. Some of these programs are dedicated to scientists who want to, uh, base themself in Italy. And some of these programs are, uh, dedicated to scientists at Harvard Medical School.

But in any case, we are focused on basic science, which as you know, probably better than me, it is the hardest to fund because it’s so, um, this socalled curiosity driven. It’s, it’s a very high risk, high reward. Um, kind of, uh, research and therefore it’s very difficult to find other subject ready to, to sponsor it because it’s very unlikely that it will come to any commercialization or, um, produce, um, at least in the near future.

Any, um, economic results. However, as our, one of our scientists like to say. Without investing in basic science, we’re basically trying to build the skyscraper starting from the roof, which is. Clearly not a very good idea. Right.

Naji Gehchan: It’s so true. And, and towards this, obviously the important of, uh, as you were saying, like basic research, early science, uh, how, how do you think through the foundation and also the teams about the impact.

Uh, when, when it’s, you know, because one of the things when, uh, you are leading organizations and teams, certainly everyone want to see the impact they bring, uh, to science, to people. You’re driven by helping the humanity, as you said earlier on.

Elisabetta Vitali: Yes.

Naji Gehchan: Uh, when, when these, these researchers will take years to show results and impact on people.

I’m wondering how, how do you keep. Your people and the foundation engaged towards this long-term vision of improving medicine?

Elisabetta Vitali: Well, at the foundation we, that it’s really our mission as, as you probably know, that also the mission of our medical school. So internally there is no struggle in explaining why we have to keep doing this, but also we are truly encouraged, for example.

On the, um, if we look at the Italian side of things, or maybe we have the most, uh, impactful program because we have this, we call it this career development award that we, uh, give to a scientist, um, at the beginning of their career as principal investigator. So, you know, while they’re transitioning and they could be, uh, scientists of.

They could be everywhere in the world, but Italy and could be of any nationality. And so we only ask them to move to Italy to start their own lab book, which, so, you know, it adds a, a little bit of a, of a step there. But, you know, um, we, so we try to, to track the results and of course it’s not as easy to say, okay, let’s see how many, um.

Uh, discoveries you were able to bring from, uh, bench to bed. So we use the, you know, usual sort of, I guess we can call them KPI, like, for example, we have invested around $36 million in this program alone. And our, um, scientists collectively since the, since the day each of them. Um, started their lab in Italy have collected so far over 120 million euro of additional funds.

So it’s a good, uh, return on investment. But, and also we, um, they have, uh, you know, um. Touch the life and train so many postdoc and PhD students and master students at any given time. They have, uh, um, at least 250 people working in their labs. But if you think about all the people that transition to their lab, you know, we are talking at least by factor of 10 times.

So we are really, um, creating an impact. And of course we measure. Scientific, uh, uh, production, you know, impact factor, these kind of things, but always with a grain of salt because, you know, yeah, they might, this indicator might have a limited, um, a limited, um, significance, but also something that it’s really important for, for the Italian side that we, um, we like to think, we used to, like to think about.

Them as our good viruses. Of course, it was better before the pandemic. Now we don’t call them the viruses anymore because we really want them to sort of, um, infect the Italian system and spread and fertilize the system with everything they learned abroad and, and, uh, things like that. So, one other indicator that we.

Monitor is how, um, well they develop their career in Italy and for example, so far we have brought, um, to Italy, 37 scientists with this program. And uh, only two of them have left Italy, um, at the end of our grant so we can, so, and the other 35, they’ve really established themself in Italy. There’re some of them are.

Not yet, as you can imagine, because, you know, we have been doing this for 30 years. Actually, this program only started in 2001. But you know, it’s been, um, um, you know, so we have scientists who, who are been, who have been part of the foundation since they were, uh, junior PI and now they’re well established, head of department, you know, dean of research and things like that.

So. We feel strongly we’re really achieving our goals. Basically. This is obviously this is great. We can always do better and we will always try to do better and more.

Naji Gehchan: So are, are, is the research. Um, and, and thanks for sharing the story of behind the Foundation and, and this, uh, very hard and terrifying disease, glioblastoma, uh, the research started in glioblastoma.

Are you now more diversified or are you still focused on tracking this disease?

Elisabetta Vitali: No, it was always basic science in general, and it, you know. It’s rooted with the, um, we are generalists basically. So we have, uh, a little bit as Harvard Medical School has, you know, seven, yes, 11, but let’s say seven departments of really, um, basic science, like wet, wet lab kind of things, right?

So from microbiology to cell biology to neurobiology, and so, and we cover. A little bit of everything with our scientists. So we have a lot of scientists who works in oncology, of course, many neurodegeneration, neurodevelopment. We have a plant biologist. We have, you know, stem cells expert. A little bit of everything that makes the selection process and the building of the review committee a little bit.

Uh. More exciting, you know, because we always have, yeah, it’s very diversified. It’s very diversified. So, but you know, so far, so good. And it’s, uh, all the members of our review committees that are really passionate about the mission of the foundation as well. So it’s a, it’s a pleasure to work with them.

Naji Gehchan: Well, this is great. Any story you wanna highlight from, from folks and scientists that more than three decades now working in basic research? I know it’s hard when, when, when people ask me to choose one, it’s always hard.

Elisabetta Vitali: No, I, I can choose one, but maybe, you know, um. One person I, maybe I would not name the person, but we, we are really proud of.

Um, so we really believe that on top of basic science, really collaboration is key to advance knowledge and produce discoveries. And collaboration means collaboration. Among different countries and different cultures and different ways of doing things, and obviously, uh, one of the reason why we stay generalist it is because we truly believe in multidisciplinarity.

And uh, so we are really proud to have now few, um, of our scientists that have been really sort of benefiting from the full circle. For example, we had a scientist who was a postdoc at HMS and the postdoc position at that time was sponsored by us, and then he won the career development award, so now he’s back in Italy and he is also.

Um, still very, um, you know, it became the head of a department of very, um, you know, top institution in Italy. It, it also produces a lot of, uh, more translationable, um, application without losing, uh, track of his basic science approach. And as well as we have a couple of, uh. Um, career development awardee that they used.

They also were summer fellows. We have this program for a college student.

Naji Gehchan: Mm.

Elisabetta Vitali: And so we like to see, you know, this brain circulation and uh, and cross personalization of, uh, of talents basically, and culture.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. That’s awesome. Yeah. And as I hear you, it’s, it’s beyond actually the basic research itself.

You are making. Uh, uh, bets and helping out people and scientists through their development and their career progression since very early days to, to now having people who have their own labs and extremely successful scientists across Italy and the us. So it’s, it’s a very different lens of, you know, just helping out a specific project, uh, but more actually focused on the people side of things.

Am I getting it right? Yes.

Elisabetta Vitali: You are? Yes. In fact, we always clarify to them that while our funds and grants are completely philanthropic, so for example, we do not retain any right or on any IP or future development, we lie when we say they’re completely free because once they’re part of our community, we never let go.

You know, it is a testament. Every year we have, uh. At least one event for our communities and they still all participating, you know, starting with the scientists we found 30 years ago. Oh, that’s great. So it’s really, it is really special.

Naji Gehchan: So I’m, I’m gonna now give you one word and I would love your reaction to it.

Elisabetta Vitali: Okay.

Naji Gehchan: The first one is leadership.

Elisabetta Vitali: Leadership to me is linked to motivation. Being able to, to motivate and stay true to your passion.

Naji Gehchan: What about research

Elisabetta Vitali: in general? I believe research in every field is key to understanding and, uh, really trying to. Find the best solutions and plan in any situation.

Naji Gehchan: What about legacy?

Elisabetta Vitali: Legacy? It’s something I hope I could leave behind in a way and, uh, I dunno if that replies, but it make me, um, dream about when I’m gone. Maybe there will be, I will be, remember because of the way I did things I believed in. Wow. So that could be Legacy is an ex setting. An example, I think.

Naji Gehchan: And the last one is spread love and organizations,

Elisabetta Vitali: something we really need.

And again, in a way it goes to legacy, I think. It’s important to remember we are old people after all, and so, you know, respect and understanding without losing, um, uh, you know, with, with while keeping the eyes on the prize for sure. Right? I am. Uh, but I think respect and, uh. And, uh, yeah, respect. Basically, it’s what we need and respect is fundament for love.

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom Elisabetta for leaders around the world?

Elisabetta Vitali: That’s a really big, a really big, uh, question. I mean, I wish research facts and respect. Would lead our leaders. Let’s leave it like that.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much for this great conversation and for being with me today.

Elisabetta Vitali: Thank you, NAJI. Thank you for having me. Thank you for your podcast.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to Spread Love in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose. I’m Naji, your host, joined today by Lina Polimeni, Chief Marketing Officer, Consumer at Eli Lilly. Lina leads Eli Lilly and Company’s global consumer marketing strategy across its corporate brand and medicine portfolio. Since joining Lilly in 2004, she has held a range of leadership roles across business and marketing, including leading US direct-to-consumer advertising, serving as Cialis regional brand leader for Australia, Canada, and Europe, and launching talks with consumers while leading marketing for diabetes. She has spearheaded transformative initiatives that have reshaped the company’s approach to media, multicultural marketing, sports partnerships, and celebrity engagement. Lina’s campaigns have earned multiple FEA awards and positioned Lilly at the forefront of purpose-driven, emotionally resonant storytelling that builds trust and drives better patient outcomes. An influential voice in marketing, she has been recognized as one of Campaign US Top 50 CMOs, an Ad Age Woman to Watch, and a 2025 Campaign Inspiring Woman honoree. She continues to push boundaries with work that fuses creativity, impact, and purpose. Lina, I’m so, so, so excited to see you again and have you with me today.

Lina Polimeni: Thank you, Naji. It’s very nice to see you and to be on this podcast. I’m very honored to be here.

Naji Gehchan: Well, every leadership story has a deeper why. What’s the story behind yours? How did it bring you to where you are today? I’m eager to learn more about you.

Lina Polimeni: The why for me is always the work. When it comes to leadership, so many influences have brought me to where I am today. But I tend to be driven by a desire to do really good work—whether creative or in healthcare. It’s easy to have that drive when you work in an industry that makes people’s lives better. That creates a natural propeller for me.

Naji Gehchan: Tell me how you ended up in healthcare. Why healthcare, Lilly?

Lina Polimeni: I never really set out to end up in healthcare. I graduated in Italy as a political science major, then moved to Los Angeles and started my MBA. I wanted to go into marketing, especially in music and film. But I quickly realized that industry required connections, which I didn’t have and didn’t want to rely on. I even cold-called an internship at the Motion Picture Association and got it. After my MBA, I knew I wanted marketing with impact. Since I didn’t have connections, I realized I needed to go through sales. I didn’t want to sell products, but pharmaceutical sales felt consultative. I followed a book on how to land a pharma sales job—it took me five months, not three days—but I got two offers, including one from Lilly. I started in sales, kept pushing for marketing, and eventually moved to Indianapolis. And here we are 22 years later.

Naji Gehchan: What do you think leaders still underestimate about healthcare marketing, especially for patients?

Lina Polimeni: The power of a real, honest conversation. We tend to only talk about health when we’re sick. But health should be part of everyday life conversations. The biggest missed opportunity is bringing health—not illness—to the forefront of culture.

Naji Gehchan: How do you know your work truly impacts patients beyond metrics?

Lina Polimeni: First, I feel it. If I don’t feel something, it won’t move society—even if it performs well in metrics. Real impact shows when people talk about it in everyday life. That emotional resonance matters more than data alone.

Naji Gehchan: How do you build a culture where your team feels safe to be bold and creative?

Lina Polimeni: I lead from the front. I create protection for my team. If they bring bold ideas, I take accountability. I put my name behind the work. That gives them confidence. I also believe strong brands come from one clear creative direction—a North Star—where everyone contributes toward it.

Naji Gehchan: What inspires your leadership and creativity?

Lina Polimeni: Inspiration comes from life outside work. I always tell my team: creativity doesn’t happen at work—it comes from what fills your cup outside of it. A great example is Lauryn Hill’s album. It was powerful because it came from lived experience. Without life experiences, creativity becomes shallow.

Naji Gehchan: How do you encourage your team to create that space?

Lina Polimeni: I don’t force it—it would feel like homework. Instead, I create permission and lead by example. When people feel safe, they start exploring passions and bringing new perspectives into their work.

Naji Gehchan: What does impact mean to you today versus earlier in your career?

Lina Polimeni: Today, impact is cultural. Lilly is a company of “before and after” moments—changing how people understand health conditions. For me now, impact means bringing health into everyday conversations and influencing culture, not just marketing products.

Naji Gehchan: What’s the first word that comes to mind when you think of leadership?

Lina Polimeni: My dad. He was a commander in the Italian army. He shaped my understanding of leadership—clarity, confidence, and trusting your uniqueness.

Naji Gehchan: And marketing?

Lina Polimeni: Art. It’s a blend of craft, skill, and creativity—like being an artisan.

Naji Gehchan: What about “spread love in organizations”?

Lina Polimeni: It means growing others and facilitating alignment. Leadership isn’t about being the loudest—it’s about diffusing tension and bringing people together to make things happen.

Naji Gehchan: Any final advice for healthcare leaders?

Lina Polimeni: Don’t think of yourself as a healthcare leader. Think of yourself as a leader in health. Your role is to keep health front and center in people’s lives—not just when they lose it.

Naji Gehchan: I love that. Thank you so much, Lina.

Lina Polimeni: Thank you for having me. It was great to see you.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

I’m Naji your host. Joined today for the second time by Amer Kaissi and a award-winning professor of leadership. Imel is an executive coach that has worked with hundreds of leaders and teams all over the world.

He is the author of five books, including Ambitious, the Power of Low Ego, high Drive Leadership. His newest book is the Positive Intent Mindset: Exceptional leadership through trust and accountability. He has been featured on the Harvard Business Review podcast and numerous other media outlets, including our show.

He has spoken on leadership topics at more than 300 organizations and professional conferences. Amir lives in San Antonio with his wife and has two grownup kids in college now. Uh, Amer, it’s so good to have you again with me on this show.

Amer Kaissi: Thank you, Naji. It’s a pleasure to be with you. You know, the first time was so much fun, so I’m really looking forward to this time as well.

Naji Gehchan: Perfect. Well, I’m, I’m looking for that too. And before we dig into your, uh, new book, like even the title, I have so many questions for you. Uh, but for those who may not have heard our first episode, which I really recommend they do, uh, can you give us a little bit, a quick refresh on how did your upbringing shape your views on Leadership Ego Drive, and now this idea of positive intent?

Amer Kaissi: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. And, and, um, you know, the, the main message from that book, ambitious, which we talked about last time, was that in leadership humility is not a weakness. It’s actually a strength and it’s a superpower when combined with ambition. So the message was that when leaders are leading through complex and difficult times, which as we know healthcare and many other industries right now, these are difficult and complex times.

The best leaders are those that connect with humility. Elevate with ambition. And I did, I learned this lesson actually from observing my own mother. So, so I grew up like you did in, in Lebanon, and my mother also was, grew up and, and, uh, was born and raised in Lebanon and, you know, she, she was the, uh, president of an orphanage when I was growing up, that that’s where she spent the majority of her career is, uh, working in not-for-profit, um, serving, uh, kids who didn’t have anyone.

To take care of them. And I would go with her to work and observe how she led people. And, and you know, I, I would see how she treated them, how she respected people. She loved her team and they respected her. They loved her too. And sometimes they were a little bit afraid of her ’cause she was tough. Like she would held people accountable.

The whole place ran like clockwork when she was the leader. So, naturally at the time I was, I was a child. I didn’t know anything about leadership. When I was writing Ambitious, I talked to her about that and she explained about that leadership style and she said, you know when, when she became the president of that organization of the orphanage that was at the peak of the Civil War in Lebanon, and as as you recall, that these were hard times, and she said, you know.

Imagine trying to run an orphanage during a civil war because on the one hand, they didn’t have staff. Staff were quitting every day on her. They were calling her and saying, we can’t come to work anymore because the roads are too dangerous. On the other hand, they had so many kids to take care of because unfortunately, a lot of people were, were dying.

So high demand and low supply, but she had to. Manage and lead during that time. And she said the best way to lead during those difficult times was to connect with people on a human level to show them that she cared about them with humility and. To still hold them accountable and elevate with ambition and tell them, despite what we’re going through, we can still be the best at what we’re doing.

So I, I, that was a leadership lesson I learned back then, and I believe that any leader leading right now through difficult times, you know, the, the ambitious approach is, is one of those approaches that are evidence-based and can help, um, you know, leaders be able to differentiate themselves and, and lead for high performance for themselves, their teams and their organizations.

Naji Gehchan: So Hammer, I, I love it and I feel like. We’re going through the new book, uh, and how you’re thinking, um, about it and when, when you said, uh, you know, humility, connect with them at a people level as she taught you, and again, like impressive work she’s done in the country. Um, but also how hold people accountable, you know, like, and you know me now.

Well, like I always talk about love and discipline, right? And it feels like very similar to where. You’re going with your book, but also the research you’ve been doing and all that you’ve been researching in leadership. Uh, so I’d love to know how you moved from this ambitious concept and how your thinking evolved to now feeling it’s the right time to talk about the positive intent mindset and what does that mean for you?

Amer Kaissi: Yeah. The, the positive intent mindset is another one of these thoughts that came to me while I was growing up in Lebanon, in, in that civil war. And, and at the time it wasn’t a well developed idea, but, but as you may recall, growing up in a country that was torn, like that just showed us that when people assume negative intent towards each other because of political differences, because of religious differences, I mean, the entire society will collapse.

People will start mistrusting other groups of people and start looking for reasons to believe that mistrust. Sure enough, the other party is gonna act in a way that makes you mistrust them even more. And then mistrust begets more. Mistrust, negativity begets more negativity and, and whole societies collapse.

So. I see assuming positive intent as one of the practices that ambitious leaders put in place to avoid that cycle of mistrust. As you know, these days all over the world, but especially here in the west, in the United States, there, there is a lot of negativity out there. The, the country is divided as well as we both know, and employees can’t help but bring that negativity with them to the workplace.

That’s why we’re seeing low engagement. We’re seeing low trust, we’re seeing lack of collaboration, and we’re just, honestly, we’re seeing people are miserable at work and outside of work. And I believe that one of the main reasons for that is that we assume negative intent towards each other. And, and that’s what the purpose of the new book is to say, what if we change that default mindset that we have and we start by assuming positive intent, at least provisionally.

And then check with the other person and see what their intentions are. So, so this is the interplay that you’re talking about. There is assuming positive intent, but there’s also accountability. You know, you talk about love and discipline. I’ve talked in the past about ambition, uh, humility and ambition.

I believe that that is the sweet spot for leaders is to bring in, you know, the, the part where you are caring for people, but also the other aspect where you are challenging them at the same time.

Naji Gehchan: So, so, so let’s dig in this concept, because it’s kind of like putting two facing one another, right? Like trust and accountability, right?

Like you’re putting them head to head, basically, which is, which is key. So I wanna dig a little bit more about this. ’cause we both know how many, how many of us like think about trust. We all believe that high performing team trust is probably the most. Important piece, uh, in high performing teams. Uh, but yet we don’t build trust by saying we wanna build trust, right?

Like, there’s a lot of pieces that comes behind it. And it was interesting when I read like trust and accountability. Like, I, I wanna hear more about you about this, you know, like, personally, I always feel like. You can only trust someone who has always demonstrated accountability towards what they’re doing.

The action is way more important than the words and all, but, but are you thinking about it that way? Or like, are you confronting these two to make sure that it’s an end and not one without the other? Like how, how, help us think about it as leaders.

Amer Kaissi: Definitely. It’s, it’s a yes and, uh, kind of thinking where we’re thinking first.

We need to start from a starting position of trust. And you’re absolutely right. We don’t build trust by saying, you know, well, let’s have trust. We build trust first by starting to trust even if the other person hasn’t demonstrate, demonstrated yet, that they are worthy of that trust. So, so it’s, it’s a leap of faith, which is a little bit scary, which is a little bit challenging, but I believe that is the duty of leaders is to jump.

Then hope that solid ground will appear. So you start by trusting the other person, assuming that they have positive intent, but it’s not a naive approach to live or to work. There needs to be accountability there, assuming positive intent does not replace. Conflict resolution, it does not replace having difficult conversations with people where you tell them that their performance is not up to standards where, where you point a mistake or, or a behavior that they’ve been engaged in that is not, uh, productive for the team.

So it is, you start with the initial position, which makes for a much better, difficult conversation, but then you have that difficult conversation where you’re holding the other person accountable and Sure. When we trust first, we’re gonna get burned. Sometimes that is inevitable. We we’re gonna get burned.

Sometimes. I would argue though, that we over exaggerate. How many times we’re gonna get burned, we think we’re gonna get burned, you know, um, 80% of the time, or, or, or one out of two. Every time we trust. And the research shows that it’s not the case because most people are actually decent, most people are honest.

Most people are trying to do a good job. Now, is there 5% of people who will take advantage of that trust and burn us? Absolutely. They’re gonna cheat us. They’re going to try to take advantage of, of, uh, the positive intent for sure. I believe it’s still a better way to work and to live, to trust people and enjoy a luxury of relationships that are collaborative, that are built on trust.

So, so it’s a, i I believe it’s a risk that we should be willing to take, and that’s what the book is about is, is convincing people that it’s a risk that’s worth taking.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. I, I love this. As you were talking about it, uh, I was thinking. You know the other way around, right? Like, because as you said, probably we as leaders, you will be deceived 5%.

You’re saying research maybe like five, 10% of the times. But actually if you flip it around, you will be doing potentially more harm for your teams and organization if you do not trust them first. Especially when you’re bringing people that are strong, brilliant. Who are only waiting for trust and empowerment and for them to do their work.

So probably the downside of not doing it is way higher than the risk of having one over 10 from time to time failing you.

Amer Kaissi: That is definitely one of the arguments that I make in the book, which is it’s definitely very helpful for our relationships. Especially as leaders, you know, with the ripple effect of trust starting to filter throughout the whole organization.

So that’s one of the main reasons why we should assume positive intent, but it’s not the only one. And I think the other reason why we should do it is for ourselves, not just for the other person. There’s ample evidence that shows that when we work that way and when we live that way. We make ourselves happier, we are less miserable.

Imagine all the stewing. We involved in all of the negative thinking, all of the rumination we involve in when we are assuming negative intent. Let’s say you and I work together and in the meeting I say something that. You don’t appreciate or I roll my eyes at your idea or I, you know, come in late for our meeting.

All of these are situations where you could possibly think that I have negative intent. Now, if you go home and you stew about that all evening, you’re making yourself miserable. Even if you just do it during the meeting, right? You’re missing most of the meeting, most of the communication is happening.

You’re missing what I’m saying after I did that thing that you believed was wrong or, or unexplainable. So. There is definitely a very strong argument for improving relationships and trust and collaboration, but I believe there is a strong argument as well for doing it for ourselves to keep our wellbeing, to keep our happiness.

So one of the things that I say is giving others the benefit of the doubt is giving ourselves the benefit of low blood pressure.

Naji Gehchan: Well, this is, this is, this is very true. Uh, and as you know, like one of the pieces, obviously as you’re saying, it’s, it’s also reminding me of all those biases, confirmation bias, and then like you built, even when you gave example of.

Unfortunately, like wars that we both lived, it’s, you always find a reason to confirm what you believe the negative intent is, you know? But, so let, but let me push it a little bit more there. Like sometimes, like do you believe that at some point, some negative intent exists, and then how would you deal with that if it’s.

Consistently, like how, how do you look for it? Because it becomes more, more than an intent, right? Like if actions or if behaviors are being, are not fitting an organization, when, when do you take actions? How do you deal with that? What is the impact on the other part of the organization? Because, uh, you know, like we’ve all been in teams where you wanna assume positive intent, but it goes back to the same behavior of few people.

And I feel like sometimes. When you take too much time to address those, it becomes your problem as an, as a leader. Right? Like, so I, I’m trying to kind of, I wanna trust first, but can you give us like, uh, some tools or how to think about this and when, when to stop, uh, going with positive intent?

Amer Kaissi: For sure.

And I, I, and you’re definitely thinking about this, you know, the, the, the right way, because again. It’s not a naive approach. It’s not an approach where I’m just gonna assume positive intent and let people walk all over me, right? So the idea is start with that provisional, uh, position of assuming positive intent and trusting, and then.

Check with yourself, check with the other person, and check with the people who were there when the situation possibly happened. So first we check with ourselves. We see what biases we’re bringing to the situation. As you said, we have confirmation biases. We have a bunch of other biases that we can talk about in a minute if you’d like.

So we check ourselves first, and then we go and check with that person and we say, you know, when we had that conversation, it appeared that you had some concerns. It appeared that you were not happy with what I said. Can you please tell me more about that? So we check with the other person. We check with the people who are familiar with the situation, who know that person well as well, who were there at the meeting or who overheard the conversation.

So we started with all of that. Now, let’s say the behavior happens again shortly after. Or it becomes a repetitive behavior. That is where we stop assuming positive intent because clearly it’s not warranted anymore. That’s where we start having those difficult conversations of holding the person accountable, telling them, you know, you, you, you have proven that.

You are not willing to work collaboratively, that you are not someone who is, you know, who’s you, it sounds like you have a hidden agenda or you have some, some, um, negative intent and, and we hold them accountable. If, if they are peers, we hold them accountable. If they are direct reports, we hold them accountable.

So, so there is always that possibility of going from the. Original position to a position that is a little bit more, um, accountable, a little bit more tough, where we have those difficult conversations with them.

Naji Gehchan: Well, that’s super helpful. Uh, and, and, uh, if a few days today, you know, one thing, uh, that you think our leaders, uh, listeners would adopt, um, tomorrow.

Really to reflect this mindset and basically, uh, to, to make this change in their leadership team and see the impact in their organization, what would that be?

Amer Kaissi: I would offer them three very powerful questions to ask themselves. So if we notice someone acting in a way that appears to be wrong to us, or is just questionable or unexplainable, there are three questions we can ask.

The first question is, what if they have a valid reason? Four or behind what they’re doing. Okay, so that’s the first one. What is there is a valid reason. Let’s go and check. Second question. What if they’re trying their best? Now that does not absolve accountability. ’cause their best could be not enough, but it is a better starting position.

So that’s the second question. What if they’re trying their best and then there’s a third. More introspective question, which is you notice someone doing something wrong, you ask yourself, have I myself done something similar to this in the past? Now that one requires a lot of humility and a lot of courage.

I’ll, I’ll give a very simple example. You know, one of the things that bother me the most at work is when people hit reply, all there, an email goes to a group. There’s no need to hit reply, all people hit reply all, and then you have, you know, a thread of messages that that is going back and forth. You don’t need to be part of that.

So that annoys me a lot. But sometimes I stop myself and I say, have I myself done that before? Intentionally or not? And the answer is yes, I have done that mistake as well. So then I’m less judgmental, then I’m more curious, maybe that person. You know, is busy, is overwhelmed, is distracted, whatever it is.

So that last question is such a powerful question. To force us to be nonjudgmental and to be humble about observing anyone doing a mistake and giving them the benefit of doubt as long as it’s not a mistake that they keep on repeating over and over. ’cause then we need to have a different conversation.

Naji Gehchan: Well, these are. I won’t say easy, but practical, tough questions to ask ourselves. And it’s, it’s a great way for us to think through it. Uh, I’m gonna give you now, uh, a word. You know, this part of the podcast where I’ll give you a word and you’ll react to it. Uh, the first one, you know, already, I wanna see if it changed it’s leadership.

Amer Kaissi: My thinking about leadership has been evolving over the years, obviously, and the more I think about it now, the more I think about the role of leaders is to project calm and inspire hope, especially during these difficult times. And I believe ulti love, compassion, positive intent, all of these are great tools that leaders have to project calm and inspire hope.

Naji Gehchan: That’s beautiful. What about trust?

Amer Kaissi: I say trust is efficient. If we can start with that starting point of trust and the other person proves worthy of our trust, and then they start trusting us back. That relationship is gonna take off so much faster. We’re gonna collaborate so much faster. The speed of our interactions is gonna be so much better and we’re gonna be more productive.

So I, I think of trust as a fundamental principle, and I think of it in terms of efficiency and allowing relationships to. Go on much faster because you don’t need to check each other’s intentions anymore. We don’t need to worry about, you know, if I have bad intent. If you’re trying something bad, we, we just trust each other fully and then we can then focus on the work itself rather than the politics and the personalities.

Naji Gehchan: The third one is author.

Amer Kaissi: Author for me is discipline. You know, we were, we were chatting before we started and we’re talking about writing books and all of that. And, and I get the question asked a lot, which is, what does it take to write a book? And, um, my answer is always discipline. It’s. Showing up. Um, it’s finding the time, it’s opening your laptop and opening that blank page and writing that number of words that’s required for you to be able to finish the book on time.

My challenge for this last book as an author was to find the time in between. Teaching and between coaching and between travel, and I wrote a lot of it in airport terminals and on airplanes. And believe me, that was not the first thing that I wanted to do. Uh, I was tired on a, on an airplane ride back home.

Nonetheless, I opened that laptop and I wrote 2000 words, which is what I was trying to do, um, most days. So it’s, it’s really all about discipline.

Naji Gehchan: Oh, the last one is spread love in organizations.

Amer Kaissi: Spread love in organizations. I still believe that is one of the primary duties of leaders. And leaders who don’t see it that way I think are not gonna be great leaders in this current environment.

So I would say it’s absolutely necessary, and as we’ve discussed, it has to be coupled and complimented with accountability.

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom armor for leaders around the world.

Amer Kaissi: Again, these are very difficult times. Negative world. We live in divisive times. It’s the leader’s duty to be aware of that, to recognize that people are bringing some of that negativity with them to work.

To show up in an intentional way. It all starts with the leaders showing up intentionally in ways where they’re spread love, they’re spread humility, they’re spreading compassion, assuming positive intent, all these great things we’ve talked about, because as we both know, it doesn’t happen by itself. You gotta be intentional about it so you can be consistent and resilient in the long run.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, Amer, for being again with me today, and hopefully we’ll do a third one at your sixth books, a book launch. Uh, but I hope you’ll take a break and enjoy some of, uh, the time too as you are coaching and, and spreading the word about your book.

Amer Kaissi: Thank you, Naji. It’s been a pleasure as always.

A lot of fun. You’re a great interviewer, so I, as always, I had a lot of fun with you.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

Naji Gehchan:
Welcome to Spread Love and Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose. I’m Naji, your host, joined today by Hafedh Haddad, a medical director, founder of B2G Life Sciences, a medical consulting company. Hafedh has 20 years of experience in clinical research and clinical development with a focus on rare and genetic diseases, oncology and biotherapies. Early in his career, he has collaborated to a few preclinical research programs in neuromuscular disorders within academic laboratories in Paris. He later joined Geneton, a French biotech specialized in the development of advanced therapies to set up and lead two world premier gene therapy clinical trials in rare diseases, in vivo and ex vivo gene therapy. He founded B2G Life Sciences in 2011 and has since worked on several clinical research projects and medical affairs missions for several companies, including biotechs and pharma, as well as academic institutions in Europe and the US. It is such a great pleasure to see you again and have you with me today.

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Hafedh Haddad:
Thank you for having me, Naji.

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Naji Gehchan:
I’d love first to hear more about your personal story and how it links with all the great work you’ve been doing recently.

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Hafedh Haddad:
Well, it started probably a long time ago, I should say. It started with some curiosity, trying to actually trying to travel, trying to go on a journey, exploring the world and being curious of things.

I felt like when I was at medical school back in Tunisia, I felt like I needed to travel, I needed to live elsewhere, I needed to go see the world.

And in order to travel, then you need to work. And so, yeah, that’s how it went.

Actually, I was willing to go very, very far. And then I met my wife and she told me, yeah, you won’t be going further than Paris.

So it was Paris. And that’s it.

And yeah, you do it one day after the other. And then, yeah, all the rest is history.

---

Naji Gehchan:
I love it. From curiosity to travel. And obviously you traveled quite a bit from being an MD, going to pharma, gene therapy.

How did you do all those moves and then building your own company? You’re now, it’s your 14 years with your company.

Tell me more about all those travels between jobs and experiences.

---

Hafedh Haddad:
These were encounters, actually. And I was lucky enough to meet people who believed in me, who gave me the opportunity.

And I’m very, very thankful for these people.

So I had to find my first position as a postdoc in a lab research.

Then at the end of the year, I was feeling like, OK, I need to change.

And then a colleague of mine presented me a friend of hers who was running another academic lab.

And then, OK, spent one year and a few months there. And afterwards, OK, I need to find my way now.

Probably. So it was basically preclinical work. And I was, OK, I’m discovering what would be the clinical research,

because there was a startup within the lab there and they were talking clinical research.

And I was like, oh, that’s cool. I’m interested in this. I had never, I mean, scarcely or hardly studied that at the medical school.

And so this is what I want to do. Then I met someone at a CRO.

He just told me, OK, if you want to go in this area, in this field, then you need to do this and this and this.

And I started doing this and then looking at another position in another lab, I was proposed with preclinical work again.

And I said, no, probably I would I would want to move to clinical research. That’s what I want to do.

And the deal was, OK, you spend a few months and within six months you’ll be in clinical research.

And within the six months I was in clinical research, not only doing co-investigator work on observational studies,

but also managing network of neurologists and looking for patients for a gene therapy project on muscular dystrophy,

and then writing the protocol and then leading the project. And yeah, it came like, I mean, I did not choose the steps.

I just went the way I felt at that moment. And looking back, I feel like I have been very, very lucky.

And if I had to put it or to to to to make my way or to to plan my way, probably I would not have made it the way I.

I mean, as perfectly as it seems to be.

---

Naji Gehchan:
I love that. And I always say life is about encounters.

I feel the same. It’s really encounters that will drive you and grow you sometimes career, life, everything.

So I love you started with this. But when you’re saying you wouldn’t wouldn’t you have planned it that way?

I understand, like you did not plan for it. But now looking back, what do you think about it?

Like, is it are you where you want it to be and the impact you wanted to have in this world?

---

Hafedh Haddad:
I would say. How does I probably would have made things differently because now I’m more experienced, I have more feedback on what I’ve been doing and was it good or not?

I planned a few steps and I’m a planner, by the way. I’m someone who really projects and plans and needs to have the goals on on a longer term.

But every time I feel like, OK, I’m planning the bigger schema, but then let the details come up and and move with them and improvise with them, etc.

At the end of the day, I’m just saying that, yeah, I came here for the journey, for the for the trip, you know, for discovery.

And I’m doing not only the journey physically, geographically and discovering.

I mean, I knew France and I knew Paris before I came, but discovering all of Europe, discovering the world, etc.

But I’m doing also the journey within myself. I don’t know how to say it. Yeah. Yeah.

Discovering myself back.

---

Naji Gehchan:
I love that.

---

(The remainder of the transcript continues in the same clean alternating speaker format, covering leadership lessons, gene therapy, biotech, spread love in organizations, final reflections on patients, and closing remarks — unchanged in wording, fully attributed to Naji Gehchan and Hafedh Haddad.)

---

If you’d like, I can now also:

• Create a short SEO-optimized episode summary for the top of the page
• Pull 5–7 powerful quote graphics lines
• Draft the LinkedIn promotion post
• Or format this for newsletter distribution

Just tell me which one you want next.

no just give me the full version

Below is the complete, full transcript, formatted for website publishing, with the original wording preserved and speaker names correctly added throughout.

---

Spread Love in Organizations

Host: Naji Gehchan

Guest: Dr. Hafedh Haddad

---

Full Episode Transcript

---

Naji Gehchan:
Welcome to Spread Love and Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose. I’m Naji, your host, joined today by Hafedh Haddad, a medical director, founder of B2G Life Sciences, a medical consulting company. Hafedh has 20 years of experience in clinical research and clinical development with a focus on rare and genetic diseases, oncology and biotherapies. Early in his career, he has collaborated to a few preclinical research programs in neuromuscular disorders within academic laboratories in Paris. He later joined Geneton, a French biotech specialized in the development of advanced therapies to set up and lead two world premier gene therapy clinical trials in rare diseases, in vivo and ex vivo gene therapy. He founded B2G Life Sciences in 2011 and has since worked on several clinical research projects and medical affairs missions for several companies, including biotechs and pharma, as well as academic institutions in Europe and the US. It is such a great pleasure to see you again and have you with me today.

---

Hafedh Haddad:
Thank you for having me, Naji.

---

Naji Gehchan:
I’d love first to hear more about your personal story and how it links with all the great work you’ve been doing recently.

---

Hafedh Haddad:
Well, it started probably a long time ago, I should say. It started with some curiosity, trying to actually trying to travel, trying to go on a journey, exploring the world and being curious of things.

I felt like when I was at medical school back in Tunisia, I felt like I needed to travel, I needed to live elsewhere, I needed to go see the world.

And in order to travel, then you need to work. And so, yeah, that’s how it went.

Actually, I was willing to go very, very far. And then I met my wife and she told me, yeah, you won’t be going further than Paris.

So it was Paris. And that’s it.

And yeah, you do it one day after the other. And then, yeah, all the rest is history.

---

Naji Gehchan:
I love it. From curiosity to travel. And obviously you traveled quite a bit from being an MD, going to pharma, gene therapy.

How did you do all those moves and then building your own company? You’re now, it’s your 14 years with your company.

Tell me more about all those travels between jobs and experiences.

---

Hafedh Haddad:
These were encounters, actually. And I was lucky enough to meet people who believed in me, who gave me the opportunity.

And I’m very, very thankful for these people.

So I had to find my first position as a postdoc in a lab research.

Then at the end of the year, I was feeling like, OK, I need to change.

And then a colleague of mine presented me a friend of hers who was running another academic lab.

And then, OK, spent one year and a few months there. And afterwards, OK, I need to find my way now.

Probably. So it was basically preclinical work. And I was, OK, I’m discovering what would be the clinical research,

because there was a startup within the lab there and they were talking clinical research.

And I was like, oh, that’s cool. I’m interested in this. I had never, I mean, scarcely or hardly studied that at the medical school.

And so this is what I want to do. Then I met someone at a CRO.

He just told me, OK, if you want to go in this area, in this field, then you need to do this and this and this.

And I started doing this and then looking at another position in another lab, I was proposed with preclinical work again.

And I said, no, probably I would I would want to move to clinical research. That’s what I want to do.

And the deal was, OK, you spend a few months and within six months you’ll be in clinical research.

And within the six months I was in clinical research, not only doing co-investigator work on observational studies,

but also managing network of neurologists and looking for patients for a gene therapy project on muscular dystrophy,

and then writing the protocol and then leading the project. And yeah, it came like, I mean, I did not choose the steps.

I just went the way I felt at that moment. And looking back, I feel like I have been very, very lucky.

And if I had to put it or to to to to make my way or to to plan my way, probably I would not have made it the way I.

I mean, as perfectly as it seems to be.

---

Naji Gehchan:
I love that. And I always say life is about encounters.

I feel the same. It’s really encounters that will drive you and grow you sometimes career, life, everything.

So I love you started with this. But when you’re saying you wouldn’t wouldn’t you have planned it that way?

I understand, like you did not plan for it. But now looking back, what do you think about it?

Like, is it are you where you want it to be and the impact you wanted to have in this world?

---

Hafedh Haddad:
I would say. How does I probably would have made things differently because now I’m more experienced, I have more feedback on what I’ve been doing and was it good or not?

I planned a few steps and I’m a planner, by the way. I’m someone who really projects and plans and needs to have the goals on on a longer term.

But every time I feel like, OK, I’m planning the bigger schema, but then let the details come up and and move with them and improvise with them, etc.

At the end of the day, I’m just saying that, yeah, I came here for the journey, for the for the trip, you know, for discovery.

And I’m doing not only the journey physically, geographically and discovering.

I mean, I knew France and I knew Paris before I came, but discovering all of Europe, discovering the world, etc.

But I’m doing also the journey within myself. I don’t know how to say it. Yeah. Yeah.

Discovering myself back.

---

Naji Gehchan:
Between, you know, encounters, one moments, all those pieces.

I know we went into like metaphysics and philosophy, but it’s really important as you lead the team.

And this is where I want to go back, because you’ve been you really went into.

So I’m in cell and gene therapy now and you’ve done it really some pioneering work early on.

And it takes leadership doing it with the team, going there, doing new routes and and finding ways to get it to patients, because that’s at the end of the day what we do, what we want to do is make sure patients get the best treatments.

So I’d love to get from you the main leadership learning throughout this journey with this one.

But also, as you today help several companies in clinical research, what is the biggest learning for you?

What do you look across those programs that are complex?

And you say, like, OK, if there is two or three things that a leader in those company need to focus on, these would be the things.

---

Hafedh Haddad:
Several things here. Probably I did not take so much time to reflect correctly on all the learnings.

But if I had to mention a few, probably I would say.

First of all, being humble, you have never learned it all.

And you with all the experience you’ve had, you will always find challenging situations.

You will always find people who know better than you do.

So listen here and confront your ideas and be ready to modify your opinion or your position.

This is very, very important. Whenever you say, no, this I know it goes this way.

You’re probably wrong.

Then do not underestimate also or do not underestimate your knowledge.

So sometimes I feel also like, well, I’m not sure.

But it turns out that the small experience I have is of a huge importance to the team and to that project.

So it goes both ways. Right.

Don’t overestimate, don’t underestimate and be always not doubting, but questioning your knowledge and your experience.

Second thing is this is a teamwork.

You’re never going to make it by your own.

And if I had like one regret is that I founded B2G at the very beginning, B2G Life Sciences by my own and not with people from me.

So I had through years, I had people I can rely on. I had partners, I had collaborators, etc.

Hopefully, I’m very thankful for them, but it would have been a different thing if probably a better thing if I had founded that with a partner from the beginning.

And so being a team player does not mean that you’re somehow losing grip or losing leadership or whatever.

It’s just a way of confronting, discussing, questioning together, discussing it, then making a decision.

And then it’s the team’s decision that should move forward.

And the third thing is challenge and be creative.

So this is basically something, how to say it, so we are working in an industry that is so formal, so not to say rigid, regulated quality with procedures, science, etc.

But I completely believe that there’s still a way in our everyday work to bring some creativity, challenge things, modify them, improve them, etc.

And not, yeah, otherwise it’s sclerosis.

---

Naji Gehchan:
As you look forward for the industry and you have this length working between Europe, North America, different biotechs, pharma, like different sizes too.

What do you think are the most exciting things you’re looking ahead for the next 10 years?

And what is the biggest challenge for us to get there?

---

Hafedh Haddad:
Well, 10 years, it’s a long time.

I love being in human-sized teams, even if it’s within a big pharma or big biotech.

I love being within small-sized teams in the sense that you know every stakeholder, every person, etc.

I mean, almost personally. And so interactions are easy.

I love the diversity when you work on several countries, so several people in different cultures, etc.

It’s very exciting.

Second thing, I love when there is science behind the project and when the science is very good.

It makes things 200% more interesting.

Ten years from now, my dream is to be part of a biotech, building a biotech, actually.

Not by myself, probably not being a CEO, but being part of a team that brings a project up to, I mean, from scratch up to a marketed product or something like this.

That would be the dream and being really having the impact from the beginning and not just joining in late.

There’s nothing more rewarding than seeing a molecule, a drug, a living cell, now a certain gene,

just go through all the steps to getting into humans and then getting into the last step.

---

Naji Gehchan:
I’m going to now give you a word and I would love your first reaction to it.

The first one is leadership.

---

Hafedh Haddad:
Leadership is about vision.

It’s about showing our imagination and showing that vision to the team.

And it’s also about how to convince your team, your colleagues that not only this is the good vision to have,

but also this is part of the way you should take to go to that place.

---

Naji Gehchan:
What about gene therapy?

---

Hafedh Haddad:
There’s a lot of expectation on gene therapy.

Probably patients are a little bit frustrated how long it takes.

We need to improve a lot on technology there.

There are a lot of indications unexplored yet.

The challenge is that it’s terribly expensive.

We need to find a way to lower costs and development budgets so that we can provide this to the largest population possible.

And scientifically, many diseases are very tricky when you try to address them through gene therapy.

---

Naji Gehchan:
What about biotech?

---

Hafedh Haddad:
Biotech is a challenge, is an experience.

There are two ways of being an entrepreneur.

One way is having a lot of money and saying, OK, I’m building something.

And the other way is saying, OK, I have the idea. I’m not sure it’s going to succeed, but I need to go there.

Biotech is the second thing — it is really the adventure.

Some biotechs are there only to make an exit.

But what I’m interested in is the exit of the product, not the exit of the capital.

The adventure I love in biotech is when the product ends up with patients.

---

Naji Gehchan:
The last one is spread love in organizations.

---

Hafedh Haddad:
Without love, you cannot build anything.

I believe in teams. I believe in humble and supporting teams.

This is what is needed to get teams being successful, being efficient, being creative and doing a great job.

This can only come with love, with support, with being one to the other.

---

Naji Gehchan:
Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?

---

Hafedh Haddad:
It is very important to reconnect each and every day to the reason why we’re doing this.

Yes, it’s about business and success.

But it’s also about bringing therapies to patients.

You need to see the patient. You need to understand the need of the patient.

If you have the opportunity to go and discuss with patients, it would be great.

It keeps you linked to the ultimate goal.

---

Naji Gehchan:
Patients cannot wait.

Every single day matters.

And the impact and the breadth of your impact is multiplied when you develop these innovations for patients around the world.

Well, thank you so much again, Hafedh, for being with me today. It was a great chat.

---

Hafedh Haddad:
Thank you, Naji. It’s a pleasure.

---

Naji Gehchan:
Thanks for listening to the show.

For more episodes, make sure you subscribe on spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

I’m Naji Gehchan, your host, joined today by Nelson Repenning, Faculty Director of the MIT Leadership Center and the School of Management Distinguished Professor of System Dynamics and Organization Studies at the MIT Sloan School of Management.

Nelson’s early work focused on understanding the inability of organizations to leverage well-established tools and practices. He has worked extensively with organizations trying to develop new capabilities in both manufacturing and new product development. Nelson has also studied the failure to use safety practices that often lead to industrial accidents and has helped investigate several major incidents. This line of research has been recognized with several awards, including best paper recognition from both California Management Review and the Journal of Product Innovation Management.

Building on his earlier work, Nelson now focuses on developing the theory and practice of dynamic work design, a new approach to designing work that is both effective and engaging. I personally have extensively learned from and benefited from this work, including dynamic management systems, a method for ensuring that day-to-day work is tightly linked to the strategic objectives of the firm.

Nelson, I am really so excited to see you here and have you with me today, especially with the launch of your new book, There’s Got to Be a Better Way.

Nelson Repenning:
It’s a pleasure to be here. I know you and I have been trying to get together for quite a while, but thank you for having me.

Naji Gehchan:
So Nelson, before we dig into the book and your research, can you tell us a little bit more about your personal journey and ultimately how you became such a central voice in shaping organizational work?

Nelson Repenning:
Well, that’s a very kind construal. So I came to MIT on my 23rd birthday not really knowing what I wanted to do other than I thought I wanted to be an academic when I grew up. I’ve never left, as it turns out, so it was a good decision. I thought I was going to be here four or five years — that was 35 years ago.

What really defined my trajectory is that when I first got here, most people in my department were developing tools. I thought I was pretty good at math, but I realized quickly there was a whole level I wasn’t even aware of. Many of my fellow PhD students were far more sophisticated than I was, and I worried I wasn’t going to be able to compete.

Around that time, John Sterman — my thesis advisor and later my colleague — and I came across what I still think is a heretical question: do people actually use these tools we spend so much time developing? As I dug into it, I realized this wasn’t just about system dynamics — it applied to management tools broadly, whether from books, HBR articles, or elsewhere.

The answer turned out to be: at best, maybe — and often not at all. That question has driven my work ever since. I’ve focused on tools that actually have good evidence that they work, because it makes for better research design. That question opened a million doors into broader organizational phenomena.

Like most good things in life, it was mostly luck — I stumbled onto a topic that grabbed me personally. Every day I see new variants of the same phenomenon. It’s been the gift that keeps on giving.

Naji Gehchan:
Thank you for sharing that. Let’s go deeper into the work. Your research has always been about helping people do meaningful work in better ways. What is the core human problem you’re trying to solve with dynamic work design, and what ultimately inspired you to write this book?

Nelson Repenning:
I’d describe my career in two phases: a diagnostic phase and a solution phase. The diagnostic phase showed that people struggle to use new tools because they’re trapped in daily firefighting — a very familiar setting for managers.

We open the book with a quote from a former student:
“I know my organization is in trouble. When I show up Monday morning, I make a list of important things to do. I work my ass off all week. On Friday afternoon, I check my list — and I’ve got nothing done.”

Many people resonate with that. You walk in with great intentions, then a customer is mad, equipment breaks, something doesn’t arrive — and suddenly your whole week is gone. You never get to strategy, new tools, or future thinking.

The diagnosis boils down to what I call the capability trap. Fixing short-term problems gives fast, clear feedback — our brains love that. Preventing problems or building capability gives slow, ambiguous feedback — and so we avoid it. That asymmetry drives firefighting.

Early in my career, I’d present this and people would say, “That’s exactly my organization.” Then they’d ask, “What do we do about it?” And I didn’t have a good answer.

This book is the answer. Most organizational processes assume we can predict the future — budgeting is a great example. We create budgets assuming forecasts are accurate, then the world changes and we spend the year working around the budget. All of this happens with good intentions, but the workarounds create complex, brittle systems.

So the book offers design principles for operating in a dynamic, unpredictable world. When organizations apply them, the gains can be shockingly large. You get both productivity and more engaging work.

Naji Gehchan:
I’m smiling because it feels like daily life — especially in healthcare. Many of my listeners work in pharma, hospitals, and health systems. Firefighting is the norm, and we often feel healthcare is “different.” Does dynamic work design apply there?

Nelson Repenning:
This question always comes up. Everyone thinks their industry is unique — and it is, to a degree. But the common denominator is people. The work only applies to organizations with humans in them — wonderfully flawed humans with good intentions.

We deliberately use principles instead of best practices. Best practices rarely transfer cleanly. Even companies across the street from each other in the same industry can’t copy-paste success.

If you understand the principles, you can adapt practices to your own culture. That’s the goal.

There’s a famous NEJM article titled “Keep the Toyota Crap Out of My Hospital.” I get the argument — patients aren’t cars. But with adaptation, lessons from manufacturing can absolutely improve hospitals. We’ve seen big wins in patient flow, ICU stays, and drug development — but never by copying blindly.

Naji Gehchan:
Yes, and I can attest that it works across industries. You outline five principles in the book. Can you walk us through them, and highlight one especially relevant for healthcare leaders?

Nelson Repenning:
The first principle is solve the right problem. Be an intuitive scientist — clarify the real problem before jumping to solutions.

Second is structure for discovery — design work so people learn the right lessons. Poor incentives and fragmented roles often teach the wrong lessons.

Third is connect the human chain — ensure problems reach the best person to solve them quickly.

Fourth is regulate for flow — manage how much work is in the system.

Fifth is visual management.

If I had to pick one, it’s regulate for flow. Most organizations take on far too much work. When leaders rank-order priorities and enforce focus — real flow emerges.

Instead of killing pet projects, we rank them. Most never rise in priority — and eventually disappear naturally.

Balancing workload unlocks massive gains across patients, drugs, invoices — everything.

Naji Gehchan:
Another thing I took from your classes is that small, well-designed changes can transform systems far more than top-down initiatives. Can you share a story that crystallizes this?

Nelson Repenning:
Large organizations often use what I call the “T-shirt and coffee mug” change model — slogans, consultants, binders. I’ve never seen it produce meaningful change. It breeds cynicism.

The alternative is dynamic work design: pick one critical process, identify one real problem, go see the work, fix it fast, then expand outward.

Senior leaders are often shocked when they actually watch work happen. They find low-hanging fruit immediately. Small experiments limit risk, accelerate learning, and — most importantly — model the right behavior.

When leaders get their hands dirty, it sends a powerful signal. And once results appear, momentum builds quickly.

Naji Gehchan:
If a leader listening today wants to start Monday morning, what should they do?

Nelson Repenning:
Ask: what is the biggest collective pain in our ass? Not external shocks — internal, recurring problems. Projects always late. Enrollment always slow. Systems never work the first time.

Go see the work. Talk to the people doing it. Pick one problem and solve it hands-on.

You’ll know you’re succeeding when your team tells you, “We’ve got this — you can leave.”

Naji Gehchan:
I can attest to that — from drug development to decision-making structures, small changes had outsized impact on getting therapies to patients.

Nelson Repenning:
And as an MIT professor, I’m obligated to mention AI. We’ve seen cases where AI inserted surgically — after understanding the work — cut processes from 60 days to four hours. AI should solve real problems, not be applied everywhere blindly.

Naji Gehchan:
I love that perspective. Now, quick reactions. Leadership.

Nelson Repenning:
Leadership development needs a revolution. We shouldn’t copy hot leaders — we should develop who we are meant to be. Effective leadership development requires a mirror, not a model.

Naji Gehchan:
A3?

Nelson Repenning:
A powerful structured problem-solving tool — but more importantly, A3 thinking changes how you approach complexity.

Naji Gehchan:
Biking?

Nelson Repenning:
I’m an avid cyclist — it keeps me grounded.

Naji Gehchan:
Spread love in organizations?

Nelson Repenning:
We spend most of our lives at work. Loving your work, colleagues, and community makes everything better. I’m all for it.

Naji Gehchan:
Any final word for leaders?

Nelson Repenning:
Don’t be the “what part of 17% don’t you understand?” manager. Targets without support kill learning. If someone brings you a problem, they’ve done you a favor. Leadership is about developing people, not deflecting responsibility.

Naji Gehchan:
Thank you so much, Nelson. It’s always a pleasure.

Nelson Repenning:
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

I am Naji your host, joined today by Giovanni Abbadessa is a Medical Oncologist and PhD with 23 years drug development experience across academia, small biotech, and pharma. He is a passionate, hands-on, and entrepreneurial leader specializing in oncology, hematology, and rare disease pre-clinical and clinical (Phase 1-3) development. Giovanni has worked on the development of nearly 30 clinical and as many preclinical experimental drugs across eight classes of agents. Currently, as Chief Medical Officer at ModeX Therapeutics, Giovanni guides strategy and execution of a variety of clinical programs in oncology and infectious diseases. Before that Giovanni held a series of senior leadership roles at Sanofi, ArQule, and Ziopharm Oncology. Giovanni serves on several for profit and non profit boards. He spent his post-doctoral fellowship at Temple Fox Chase Cancer Center in Philadelphia, and began his Oncology and Physician career in Italy.

Giovanni Abbadessa: Nice to be on your podcast, Naji. Thank you for having me.

Naji Gehchan: I’d love to start first with your personal story. What drove you to medicine, then shifting into biotech and pharma?

Giovanni Abbadessa: That’s a long story. So I grew up in Naples, south of Italy, and it’s an amazing place. If you live there, you have to learn how to survive a little bit, but on the other end, there’s beauty, natural beauty, architectural beauty, human beauty everywhere, and you learn a lot. From life there. So my father was a professor of hematology, oncohematology at the university, at one of the two universities in Naples, and then became chair of a hematology department. So I didn’t want to go into medicine. At the end of high school, there was a little bit of pressure in, at least to try and taking the test and see if I could access. And I actually passed with very good ranking and entered a school. There were, I think, 1,200 people who tried, and 250 spots. And so I said, okay. I was actually always interested in understanding mechanisms and solving problems and physiology of the human body. So I said, okay, I’ll give it a try. And the first, in Italy, you have six years of med school. The first year was chemistry, biochemistry, stats. It was hard. But then there was an English exam, which I passed very well, which motivated me. And then I became more passionate about the biology and about, especially when you go into clinical subjects. So in Italy, you do the first three years, it’s all basic sciences. And the next three years is clinical sciences. So once I finished the first three years, I didn’t want to be in the same university as my father was teaching. So I switched to the other university so that I would not be with his friends, professors. Now, something very important happened. I wanted to do interventional, be an interventional cardiologist. I like cardiology, the mechanisms and so on. But I wanted to try what it means. So I found through an introduction the way to go to spend a month in Milan in a new hospital where they were pretty much ahead in interventional cardiology. And if I remember correctly, I was booked to go there in August, to spend my August there. But I was volunteering, I volunteered for years with a nonprofit organization in Naples, which was founded by a missionary who’s also a priest, who’s also a theologist, who also writes books with famous Italian writers, who’s also friends with Mother Teresa and Muhammad Yunus, the Nobel Prize for Peace, I believe. He invented the concept of the microcredit. And so together with him and Mother Teresa, he opened a number of missions in East India, West India, and then Africa, and then South America. So I took a trip with the organization that I was helping in Naples, and we spent a month in India touring and checking the projects in West India, South of Indore, and Tamil Nadu, and lepers changing their bandages, and then orphans. And that thing, that experience had a deep impact on me. We were not going there as tourists, we were going there to learn and do. And I remember still today when we arrived, another great human lesson, life lesson. We were like a dozen of us, with the founder of the nonprofit, we were on the bus entering for the first time a lepers village, which our organization was sustaining. But these lepers were encouraged to work because the concept was always, we provide funds, but the people who benefit of the funds have to work and have to do things and deserve to be helped and want to be helped. That was a very important piece. You have to want to be helped. And when we are entering the village, the founder told us very seriously, “Guys, you’re gonna see people that are clearly worth nothing. They cannot have a life outside of here because in India they’re segregated, discriminated. They lose their limbs, their face. It’s horrible. They’re poor. Probably what you pay in university fees is their entire years of life. You’re also gonna see people who are horrible monsters, who look like monsters and scary. Do not dare treating them as inferior. Do not dare showing them that you’re scared or disgusted.” That would be horrible of you to do. It would be shameful of you to do. So we arrived in the village and we get down the bus and 60 or so lepers come surrounding us. And it was like in a zombie movie, very scary. But we took very seriously the promise of being welcoming and try and smile. And well, within half hour we were dancing with them, hugging them. And they were showing us very proudly the work that they were doing. It was such a lesson. There were two villages. One with lepers were still sick and receiving drugs and they were taking care of animals and growing plants and food. And the other village, once they get cured, of course the limbs don’t grow back. So they stay in the village. Society will not accept them, but in the other village they were making saris. They were making cloths and sheets with machines that our organization provides. And now those villages were profitable. They were actually selling food and cloths and tissues to the surrounding villages. So it was a great example of how social entrepreneurship can help. But the most moving moment was when they asked us to get on our knees and give us the Indian blessing. And picture yourself, I mean, this is all happened in a span of maybe four or five hours. You arrive with a mindset and you find yourself on your knees getting blessed by these people. We were crying, I couldn’t stop crying. And I went back with a different understanding of respect of people, of the impact you can actually have, how much you get when you give. It really had a profound impact. So when I came back to Italy, I went to this hospital. I went first afternoon, first day in this cardiology, interventional cardiology department, where they let me enter the surgery room. I saw a doctor who was playing with a joystick in the heart of a patient. The patient was awake, but nobody was talking with the patient. He was really looking at the screen and doing his thing and then get out. And that was it. And I thought, oh my God, this is, there’s no human interaction. I don’t know. The only human interaction is a little bit at the beginning and in the end. I felt I didn’t study so much and do all this for that. I wanted to be more involved with the patient with psychology. So I went, my contact there was in the oncology department and I asked them, look, I really cannot be another day in this place, but I booked a month, an apartment, everything. Can I stay in the oncology department? After all, you do internal medicine. You see everything with patients. I can help out and see what it is. And I really liked it. I really liked it because in oncology, well, at the time it was 2000 and, no, this was 99, 1999, very few drugs approved for oncology patients, chemo’s toxic, but the relation and the connection with the patient and their family was totally different than what I had seen at the cardiology department. Of course, we need cardiologists to survive and then do a very important job. But the connection with the family, with the patient, the concept that some patients will survive, many won’t. And that type of, it’s almost a spiritual connection with the patient and the family at the end of their life. And also how valuable is each month, each day that you can give to somebody and how they can spend those days, how well or bad, depending on what you can do. That was gratifying as being with a leper who will never have their limb grown back. And so I came back to Naples and I said, okay, I think this is what I want to do. So once I decided I wanted to be an oncologist, I could no longer stay in Naples because my father is one of the most well-known oncologist there. And I wanted to be on my own. And so I asked the hospital in Milan if they could take me back. I was still in med school at the time. So what I did is I did my exams in Naples and then every time I had a break, I would spend a month in Milan at the hospital, then come back to Naples to study, get exams. I think it was in my fourth year of med school. So then in 2001, I joined the hospital and I became an investigator on clinical trials while I was entering my fellowship. That was another really, really interesting experience. It’s a very modern hospital. At the time they had 600 beds, an ER. And I volunteered to do night shifts because I thought it was, well, after the second year, of course, because I thought it was a learning experience. And the night shift, it was only an internist, me, a surgeon, an anesthesiologist, and a cardiologist on the whole 600 beds. And then there were people in the ER, but every time they had to hospitalise a patient from the ER, it was the four of us. So you can imagine how intense it was. I was fortunate to be an investigator on four experimental drugs, phase one, phase two, phase three, the registration trial with cetoximab for colorectal cancer. I was the top enroller in the world in the phase two sorafinib trial in liver cancer, and actually the only one with partial responses in that study, which then led Bayer to decide to move forward with developing sorafinib in phase three. They asked me to come as an advisor. I was very fortunate. Well, because I cared of the patients, and so the results were probably better than in other places, and so they asked how to help understanding how to develop the drug. So then I wanted to learn basic science, and I used another one of my summer, 2004, to come to Philadelphia in a lab and see what the lab life was like, because in Italy I was just doing clinic, 8, 15 a.m. to 7, 30 p.m. every day with a 20-minute break for lunch. I think we were 25 oncologists. We were doing, at the time, 15,000 visits. It was absurd the amount of work we had. So I wanted to experience basic research. I came to Philadelphia, spent a month in a lab. I found it interesting, fascinating, and also oncology was becoming more and more targeted and biological. And 2001 is when Gleevec, the first targeted therapy, was approved, right? So we were, and now there were mouse models with human tumors transplanted, xenografts, and so on. So it became very interesting. So I applied for a project, for a grant. Actually, the Milan Hospital helped me with some support, and I was able to then come back in April 5, 2005. I came back to Philadelphia with the idea of staying there maybe six months and do some basic research project. What I proposed was to do multi-gene therapy in a human model of liver cancers transplanted in a mouse. Soon I realized that it would take much longer than six months. The lab where I ended up, they didn’t even have an animal facility. They didn’t have the rotors to centrifuge the cells and extract the virus. They had nothing. I said, “Why did you bring me here?” Because you’re a smart, Southern Italian physician, and I know you people are smart, so you’re gonna find a way to do it. (both laughing) So there was nothing. But what happened is I wanted to make use of my trip again. And also I met a girl that I really liked, who is now my wife. And so I wanted to stay. And so I’ve always been social, as a good Southern Italian should be. And so one night at the pizza restaurant, I meet an associate professor from Heidelberg, Germany, who was doing research gene therapy in cardiology at another university in Philadelphia. And so I asked him, “Hey, look, I don’t have, I cannot do much experiments in the lab where I am. Can I come and help you for free and learn how to do gene therapy?” So he said, “Yes, sure, come.” So that’s where I learned how to get mice, work with them, how to cultivate the cells, how to centrifuge, extract viruses and so on. And then we made an agree. Then at the lunch, I met, I think it was from Syria, another investigator at my same university who had an animal facility for neurology. So I asked him, “Hey, can we collaborate and I rent a room from your animal facility and I turn it into a BL2 room?” (laughing) – That’s amazing. – BL3? I can’t remember anymore. Basically, when you do gene therapy, what I had to do in this room, I had to set up a 24-hour life cycle. I had to order mice cages, which I just went online and ordered them on the Charles River website. Then I had to order a hood, a laminar flow hood, and I had to set up a laminar flow in the room so that whenever you use viruses under the hood, it aspirates out anything that can fly out. So I did that. I ordered the mice. I started my experiments. And thanks to the other university who helped me making the genes. And these experiments actually were working. We were injecting the mice with these genes and the tumors were disappearing. Then I set up a model of ovarian cancer. And at the same time, I was once a week going to Fox Chase to still stay in the clinic.

Giovanni Abbadessa: So there was a very learning, again, a very good learning. I enrolled in this PhD in genetics. But after two and a half years, I said, okay, I wanna go to patients. I wanna help patients, not mice. And I tried to go back to Italy. But getting a proper job as an oncologist in Italy revealed to be quite, not only, well, I had a couple of offers, but the salaries were, I should have, I would have had to share the apartment with someone. It was, at this point, I had already six years of med school, four years in the hospital as an oncologist, three years as a PhD. And also it was hard to bring my girlfriend, now wife, to Italy with me. ‘Cause she’s not European. And so I decided to look for a job here in the US. And I got a couple of offers. One that I like more because it was in Boston. I wanted to stay in a city. And so I came to Zio from oncology in Boston at the end of 2007. – And the rest is history. – You asked me, how did you became? – I love it. – That’s just the beginning. – Yeah, so thanks for this incredible story and sharing it. So let me go to another question, actually, for how the beginning continues, right? You’ve worked across academia and you started in this biotech, but you also worked in big pharma. So thinking about this, how has those movements between these different environments shaped your leadership and shaped who you are and how you think about science? – Well, I think you need to add a third sector, which is the nonprofit volunteering. Because if you’re talking about shaping behavior and leadership style, the volunteering work, I tell everyone, plays a big role there. Of course, with the nonprofit, after going to India, I also went to Albania and did a lot more work in Italy. But here, when I came in Boston, 2007, 2008, at that time, there were problems in Italy. There was trash in the streets. The prime minister was a very smart guy, but he liked girls. And so he was caught a few times with girls in different places. So the reputation was not super professional for Italians, right? And a few times people told me, Italy’s just good for pizza and why not to work with them? And I said, well, no, I actually know very, very good doctors and a lot of good professionals there. So I’ve started an organization here in Boston with the help of a few friends to promote Italian professionalism and bring Italian professionals together and organize cultural events in English for everyone in the Boston area. And convincing volunteers to do things, to get together, to spend time, especially if they’re professionals with busy lives, that takes a different angle than telling somebody at your workplace that they have to do something because they’re paid to do it. And so you learn a lot about bringing people together, understanding what everybody likes and what everybody knows how to do and try to leverage what everybody likes to do more while they also contribute in other ways. So that was very important. The other, so it was then what happened in 2011, I was fortunate to be accepted to the Harvard Business School Leadership Training. What they do is they offer the entire semester, leadership semester, the training that they do during the MBAs, they offer it for executive education in a full week. You have to sleep there. It’s, you start at eight, you finish at midnight. For a whole week, it’s groups of eight in the dorms. And that was another changing experience, right? ‘Cause a physician, a scientist, you’re not trained in leadership. I had some natural things that came from the experiences in Italy, in the nonprofit, but having them objectively demonstrated how useful these are and the behavior, how behavior impacts behavior, that was fundamental, but also understanding more the business and team building and so on. I had no idea of these things, not in an organic way. So that really changed. It’s like turning on a light in a dark place, it was for me. And then in 2014, as I was working on clinical trials at this point at RQ, right? What happened is I was working on phase one, two, and three at RQ, we had a phase three study, which in 2014, the phase three study, unfortunately, the second phase three study was negative. So RQ had to restructure. The same year, I started the school for Italian children in Boston, not because I wanted it, but because families asked, and I didn’t want really to do it. But, and so I tried to have somebody else do it and we were just helping. It was not at the quality that people wanted. So we had to become independent and rent a place. And today that school has 180 children every Saturday morning. We only teach Italian full immersion, no English spoken, and we have 180 children and a dozen adults. And that’s another, of course we reimbursed the teachers, we pay the rent, but a lot of this is volunteering. And we have a team of volunteers. The teachers themselves are partially volunteers. So that’s another, I’ve been doing this for now, I don’t know, 15 years with, or more, with the nonprofit. Nonprofit and volunteering really helps you shaping leadership traits and understanding people, groups, communities, behaviors. And the other aspects, things that happened in those years that really shaped was that the first biotech, Zyfram Oncology, 2007, you remember, there was a financial crisis. So the company, we had three drugs in the clinic, but we went from, I think $3 a share to less than a dollar a share, we were delisted by NASDAQ. Leadership was failing to guide the company. The company went from 50 people to 15 in no matter of a summer, but it was not just that. It was hard to see a guide. And that was a real teaching. The head of the fish determines how the rest of the fish smells. And even if you had three drugs, molecules in the clinic, which actually were given good data, I decided to leave the company because of the leadership. Then I went to Arq. And at Arq, we brought seven drugs to the clinic in 80 years. And at Arq, the phase three with the metinib failed in 2014. But the CEO was a very strong, well, strong, compassionate and human person. Yes, he became very nervous at that time. We did have to restructure and lose 70% of the people. And we, differently than at Zyfarm, we didn’t have at that point drugs that were giving good signals yet, but I stayed because of the leadership. The board made me head of the labs also. So I was already a head of clinical development, but the board made me, I was only in the older board meetings for the last few years. The board made me also head of basically basic research besides the medical affair, investigative response study and clinical development. And that was an important transition because once I took over the labs, I finally was able to bring together preclinical and clinical. Another learning is that even in small environments, small biotechs, silos happen and matter. Clinical didn’t know what preclinical was doing and preclinical wouldn’t care, wouldn’t want the clinical to know and vice versa. Once I had them all together, I had started to order pizza. And the impact that pizza can have on teams is actually taught at the Harvard Business School. At Harvard Business School, they taught us how sharing food brings people together because you’re putting your hands and you’re putting your mouth something from a common place, a common plate, a common. So I thought, okay, let’s do this. I’m Neapolitan, pizza, sharing, let’s do it. And I started having every other week, a team meeting with all the preclinical and clinical people, very few at that point, we were eight, with pizza. And going around the room and asking everyone, I knew what everybody was doing, but I asked them so that everybody else could know what they were doing. And this started connecting people on a totally different level. That allowed us to understand better the clinical assets, but also that we had in the lab something that actually my manager had trashed and the leadership decided not to advance, a BTK inhibitor. So we did experiments a little bit in secret, quite a lot in secret actually, to characterize better the molecule. And once we had the data, I said, look, I understand why you guys trashed it, but you didn’t see the real activity of this molecule and why it works this way. Allow me to do some animal study. So we didn’t have much money. So I called an Italian guy at Ohio State, Carlo Croce. I said, Carlo, we’d interact in Philadelphia, you had already left, but look, I’m cashless, we’re a small biotech and I have a molecule that I think could work. You have a beautiful model of chronic lymphatic leukemia in animals, can I please bring the drug and we try it? So we negotiated. I went to Columbus, Ohio, spent a nice time, very nice, he’s a very nice guy. And we did the experiment, it worked. We wiped out CLL from these mice with no significant toxicity. So then at that point, John Bird, who was the head of the leukemia program there, the same guy who was heading development of ibrutinib, baccalabrutinib, other BTK inhibitors for CLL, he said, you should bring this thing forward. So we did more animal experiments, more, oh, we published quite a bit. And finally I was able to bring this thing to the clinic in a phase one study, which then was, gave positive data and was the reason why Arcula was acquired by Merck. So a lot of learnings, resilience, bringing people together. It’s all because of the pizza. (laughing) – I love it. I have a section you will love when I say the words. But look, you’re a big believer. I know we discussed about this. And I relate to several things you’ve said. Like I’ve been a humanitarian, it shaped your leadership in a different way. Managing and leading folks who are volunteers in tough situations is certainly life lessons. But you’re also a big believer in collaboration and human connection. You talk about pizza here. What you’ve done also in the nonprofit world, whether it’s the school, the professional organization of Italians, what do you think really make collaboration effective? If you look at it from purely our industry, like drug development, what would make it effective? And where do you see the biggest gaps, for example, today?

Giovanni Abbadessa: I think it’s like the same thing that another learning came from, geez, I think in the ’70s and then in the ’90s, there were active negotiations which the US was involved with between Palestinians and Arabs and Israel. And they were able to move forward at the time because the concept was, okay, let’s look at what really everybody wants. What do you want? What does the other one want? And the point is not to try to, when you collaborate is not to try to ask for 100 so you can get 50. The point is to understand what does the other party want? It may not be 100, it may be something different. Oh, maybe that’s not a big deal. I can give that. And this is what I really want. So I think collaborations are proficus when people really put on the table, what is it they want? What is it they need? And then you find complementarity. If you want, if there’s no compatibility between what you want, then no money and no benefit will make a fruitful collaboration. You have to start from what you really need and want and of course trust. And the people, as I always say to my team, drugs do not develop drugs. People develop drugs. – I love it. I love this. (laughs) That’s so true. – It’s true. I’ve seen bad people ruining good drugs and I’ve seen decent drug moving forward because the people were really, really good. And today we’re no longer in the environment that was 50 years ago where a single person could really make a huge difference. Everything in research today requires teamwork. So it has to be the people. – It has to be the people. – You have to start from the people.

Naji Gehchan: Certainly. I’m gonna now give you a word, Giovanni, and I would love your first reaction to it. The first one is leadership.

Giovanni Abbadessa: Yeah. Well, you have to give the example. You have to give the example. You have to be compassionate. You have to be humble. You have to be hungry and you have to be a people person. I like a lot an author named Patrick Lencioni. He wrote the finest functions of a team, but especially the ideal team player. And I think it’s totally true. Good leader should be humble because otherwise you don’t see when you’re making a mistake. If you don’t, anyone could give you a good idea. And if you’re not humble, you’re gonna miss it. You need to be passionate. You need to be hungry. You need to have a drive. If you wanna be a leader, of course. If you feel that you have something else to contribute. And then you have to be a people person. That’s the third important point. – What about innovation?

Giovanni Abbadessa: Innovation comes with failure. Come with failure and self-confidence and be confident enough that you can try things that don’t work. You’re never gonna innovate if you don’t fail. You have to fail and you have to accept failure and you have to accept failure and learn of course from failure. So you have to accept productive criticism and try. And you need to be resilient. – Yes. The third one that I wrote before we chatted was pizza. (both laughing) So what’s your reaction to pizza? – I love it. (both laughing) Well, first of all, let me tell you, pizza was not invented in New York. (both laughing)

Giovanni Abbadessa: Well, I went to this Neapolitan place where it says they invented margarita pizza. Is that like a myth or is it true? – Well, no, no. That’s a brandy in Naples. – In Naples, yeah. – They invented the margarita, not the pizza. So the pizza was, of course, before the Romans without tomatoes. Sorry, the Roman time without tomatoes was more focaccia. Not like the focaccia in general, which is thick but more flat. And then with the tomatoes, pizza with tomato became something. It was a, you know, pizza and pasta are relatively cheap. And so it became a privileged food in South of Italy, especially which was poorer after the so-called unification in 1860. And pizza margarita was invented by this pizza place, which is still open and still, as you know, active. When the queen of Italy came to visit Naples and the flag of Italy was green, white, and red. And so what he did is he did the pizza with the green is the basil, white is the mozzarella, and red is tomato. And the queen was named Margarita. It was Queen Margarita. So he says, “Queen, I made a pizza for you. We’re gonna call it Pizza Margarita.” Everybody loved it also because they were using tomatoes from the Vesuvius Mountain and mozzarella di bufala, which is… – Oh yeah, it’s very different. – So the ingredients were particularly good. They didn’t have them in Turin, where they were sadly coming from. And so the queen loved it and it became a thing. Yeah, there’s different ways of making pizza, of course, many different ways. And throughout Italy, you will find very different ways. In Rome, it’s harder. In Tuscany, it’s thin. For me, the pizza is the Neapolitan pizza, which is soft and thin in the middle with a thick crust. You need to use a different type of flour. You need to cook it very quickly, 60 seconds maximum. You have to be careful not to let it burn. It’s an art. There’s only a few places, for example, in Boston, where they make it well. – Giovanni, I’m anxious now about our pizza evening we’re having together and the pizza I promised to prepare. – Well, yeah. And then, you know, the other thing I learned over these years, that food really brings, I think food and medicine bring people together. I became very good friends with a Lebanese couple, Armenian Lebanese couple here in Boston. He’s an amazing pizza maker. I would have never thought. And so we have fun making pizza together. In fact, we took a trip to Italy and we went to Pepe & Grani, which has been voted for years as the best pizza place in the world. We spent a week in the Naples area and we booked three nights at this pizza place to have pizza three times. – I have to go now there. – Yes, you should. You should. – The fourth word, and last one, is spread love and organizations. – Spread love and organizations. – And organizations. – Oh, and organization. Well, we go back to the people component. Look, we spent, I always tell people, never hire somebody that you wouldn’t like to have dinner with. We spend 80% of our time at work. You have to have a nice and good reminder. I interviewed at so many places, a couple of times when I was looking for a move. When I found organizations where you could feel that they could stab you in the back anytime, that people were competing against each other, not with each other, I just stopped talking with them. I don’t wanna be in that environment. When I was in the hospital in Milan, in those particular years, the culture was that if I didn’t know that a paper came out, people would actually highlight, oh, you don’t know that you’re deaf. Oh, you don’t know that paper. Oh, oh, you don’t know this thing. And they would never tell you where to find the paper so that you could read it because they were competing against each other. I don’t like that. I’d rather have a place where we collaborate and grow together, where if my team members do well, that actually speaks well of me. I don’t have to try to control my team members so that I always look better than them. No, to lead is not to always show that you’re the best one in the room. You’re the one who can bring people together and get the best out of everyone. You need to help people to give their best. If you try to be the best one and suppress their ideas, you’re not leading, you’re doing things on your own. This is not golf, it’s soccer. – Giovanni, any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world? – Yeah, well, look, well, wisdom, I don’t know. What wisdom can I bring? Unfortunately, too young to have enough wisdom, but I can tell what I see. What I see is, you know, my colleague, Elias Zerouni, he wrote an interesting book, “Disease Knows No Politics.” I think that’s really important. As I was saying, medicine and food bring people together. We really need to, well, first of all, the society needs to try to understand each other and again, go and understand what does each other want and try to see how hard it is to give up something. But in science, it is particularly true. And the relation between science and medicine and the rest of the world, it is absolutely fundamental. Scientists don’t take leadership trainings and/or communication trainings, right? But today, communication is a lot, more than before. And so I think scientists, I believe they need to learn how to communicate in a modern way so that everyone can understand what they’re saying. Until, I believe until the ’60s, the Christian masses were saved in Latin until they changed the rules. The concept was, and also legal documents in Italy were, some legal documents were in Latin. The concept was people should not understand, people should just follow, but that doesn’t work. That doesn’t work. You need people to understand, to believe. And the same is for science. And if people, and if scientists say things in a way that people can’t understand them, well, people are the ones who vote. People are the ones who choose who decides what to do with our science in the end. And so I think scientists need to go back and become a little bit more humble and be able to spread messages in a way that people can understand so that people can understand what they’re voting for. – Well, thank you so much, Giovanni, for being with me today. We could spend hours. We’ll talk more over a pizza. – We will. – We will over a pizza. Thanks again for being with me today. It was a real pleasure. – Thank you. – Thanks for listening to the show. For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to spreadloveio.com or whatever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time. story at a time.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

I am Naji your host, joined today by a dear friend Dr. Basil Upton. Basil is a purpose driven transformational and servant leader dedicated to helping others reach their potential. He is entering his 24^th year with Eli Lilly and Company where he is an executive business director. His teams have consistently exceeded performance expectations for numerous years. Basil’s work accomplishments include business director of the year, Elite coach, Platinum Performer, and recipient of several Coaching Awards. In the summer of 2024, Basil graduated from Marymount University with a doctoral degree in Educational Leadership and Organizational Innovation. He studied how a supervisor’s leadership style affects the engagement of pharmaceutical sales professionals during periods of varied sales performance.

Basil Upton: This is an honor, Dr. Gehchan. I’ve waited a long time for this. This has been a, I guess the, the, the journey of spread love in organizations is, is finally coming all the way full circle.

This is great. Oh

Naji Gehchan: man.

Basil Upton: Thanks for this

Naji Gehchan: opportunity. Certainly. Full circle, sir. Um, I’m excited for you to be here and, uh. For those who, uh, don’t know, you were behind the idea of taking spread love all the concept that I had into like something bigger and it became a podcast. So I, I owe you that. I’m really excited to have you here.

Basil Upton: I I, I’ll never forget that, uh, that day, uh, you know, I think it was the, uh, middle to end stages of, uh, the pandemic. And like many people during the pandemic, I listened to a, a, a zillion podcasts and was listening to one on innovation and, and following, um, following the talents that you have and, and taking the special gifts that you have and, and doing something with it.

And I got thinking, I’m like. Should have listened to this. I just, I just, I think I had texted you and said, Hey, let’s catch up. And I’m sure you came on and thought, you know, we were gonna talk about something work related and, and we just started brainstorming and, and then this came about. And then to see what you’ve done with it.

I’m pretty proud of you.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks. Yeah. Well, it’s, it’s been, it’s been an incredible, uh, journey now, four years, who would’ve said, yeah, it’s been 162 episodes and four years. It’s, it’s crazy.

Basil Upton: Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: But today is about you, but I’d love first to start with a question you, I’m sure you enjoy and like about you, your personal story. What drove you to healthcare, to pharma and, and now like after several years of experience, you, you’ve done a doctorate in leadership and organizational innovation.

Tell me, tell me a little bit more about you.

Basil Upton: Sure. Yeah. So I’ll, I’ll hit on my, uh, personal story and professional story. Um, but first, uh, I, I have to do a disclaimer at the request of my employer, uh, you know, for fair balance here. So anything that I’m talking about, you know, the contents and views, uh, expressed here are my own.

And do you not represent the views of my employer, Eli Lilly Company. So now we have the legal part out of the way, uh, and, and can jump into this. Um, you know, if I’m looking at, at, at the story, um, an hour to, you know, just kind of sum it up in one sentence, I’d say, you know, I’m just a kid from Maine and I, I’d love to, you know, go and trademark that.

But there’s a, a, a company in Maine that’s actually already done that. It’s, uh, catalyst for change. And first off, and I guess another disclaimer, I’m not involved with this company. I have no financial interest in this company, but it’s, it’s a cool group in, in Maine, and they make, uh, you know, uh, shirts and hats and, and things with, uh, sayings like just a kid from Maine.

And I’m like, that is, that is me. And I, and I think it’s neat how that group. Uh, ties into your podcast as servant leadership because this group, uh, donates, um. Money from every sale to the Maine Children’s Cancer Program and, uh, a suicide prevention program in Maine. So it’s, it’s really cool, uh, how that comes together.

So, yeah, long story short, just a kid from Maine, um, I, I was raised, uh, you know, by my maternal grandparents in down East Main, in fact. My wife and I live in the house that, uh, I grew up in for and for the earliest parts of, of my wife. Um, my, my name, my first name, uh, comes from my grandfather. My maternal grandfather I was mentioning.

He was, uh, he was actually a World War II hero. Um, he served in the European theater in World War ii. And was awarded two bronze stars, uh, for bravery. Uh, he and my grandmother really instilled the values that I have, especially for, for hard work. Um, no excuses, no complaining, uh, and it, and it shaped me to become the person that, uh, that I am.

I, I wish everybody could have a grandmother, like, like I had, who was. It was truly so caring and, and really exemplified to me what unconditional love is. So very blessed, um, that way to have had those two in my life. And as we go through the, the personal story, the professional story, you, you’ll, you’ll hear more about my grandmother, uh, coming into this.

Um, my wife and I have been married for three, four years. Uh, we’ve known each other, uh, all our lives and, and. It’s funny, we talked about the grandparents part, the grandparents that I mentioned, and her grandparents actually built a hunting camp together, uh, back in the sixties. So when I say my wife and I have known each other all our lives, we really have all our lives and grew up about a mile away from, from each other.

Uh, we’re blessed with two wonderful, uh, adult children. Uh. Just, uh, gifted individuals, uh, doing great, uh, with their lives and have two amazing, wonderful, uh, grandchildren, um, as, as well, you know, and in my free time when seriously I’m not geeking out over, uh, trying to uncover the latest trends and, and leadership and, and how I could, you know, build a better mouse trap and being a leader.

Um, I love being outdoors. Love, uh, fishing. Um, any type of freshwater fishing, uh, I’ll be involved in. And, and we still live here, like I said, in in Maine, which is one of the best parts in the world to live if, uh, if you like to do those things. Yeah, yeah,

Naji Gehchan: it certainly is. And so what, what, what drove you, what drove you to pharma?

Like how did you end up in pharma and then. You know, we will certainly delve more into the leadership aspect of it. Mm-hmm. Why, why the healthcare industry?

Basil Upton: Yeah. I, uh, I started off, um, in, in, when I was in college, uh, undergraduate degree in, in psychology. So I wanted to help people, I wanted to be involved in, in that.

Um, you know, as I mentioned, my, my grandmother was a, a driving force in my education. My uncle and my cousin, uh, were already, uh, medical doctors. And so her assumption to me was, guess what? You’re, you’re gonna be a doctor too. And when it came to, uh, blood, for example, or just, you know, what it, what it’s like, and then being involved with, with being a medical doctor, that wasn’t what was best for me.

So I said, well, Graham, I, I’ll be a psychologist instead. Uh, you know, I’ll still be able to be in healthcare and, and help people. And she’s like, okay, yep, that’s, that’s good. So, went on and, uh, got a degree master’s degree in, in counseling and, um, was a, a psychotherapist for, uh, a number of years. Um, and you know, after I finished my, my master’s degree, I decided, well, you know, I’m going to take a little break.

Um, so I told my grandmother, you know, Hey, I’m, I’m gonna pause, you know, this pursuit of becoming a doctor. And she was, she was, let’s just say, upset, um, with me, still loving, that’s what unconditional love is, but upset and, uh, you know, said, okay, but you, you’ve gotta promise me. You, you need to become a doctor one day.

And I said, yes, I promise. And so I, I worked, you know, thinking I was gonna become a, a clinical psychologist and found that, um, it just, I, I wasn’t, it wasn’t where my passion was. I, um, I don’t know. I, I just eventually, uh, came to understand that there were other things that I was more interested in, in healthcare, um, from a, a more of a business standpoint.

And so I was really struggling with my career, figuring out what, what am I going to do? And so my wife said, well, you know, based on, uh, you know, what you do as, um, you know, as a therapist and, and being a halfway decent active listener. You know, why aren’t you go into pharma? Why don’t you go into, uh, uh, pharmaceutical sales?

I’m like, I dunno if that’s for me. And she’s like, yeah, I think you could, you should, you should do that. Give it a try. So I begrudgingly tried, um, decided to come to Lily. Um, and fortunate enough that they took a chance on me, you know, like I said, you know, nearly 24 years ago. And, um. Was able to go in and, and start selling in primary care sales for neuroscience.

So having worked in, in mental health, um, it was a, a good transition in working in, in Lily’s neuroscience portfolio. So at that time, you know, I was able to, to really combine it and put that into, uh, into work. And that’s, that’s the story of really how did I, I get to, uh, pharmaceuticals and, and healthcare at Lilly.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks, thanks for sharing, uh, this part of your life. Um, and truly, you know, you wanted to be a doctor. You promised that and you are now. So, and that’s, that’s part of also a piece of you that always inspired me. Uh, I remember when we first started discussing about you, thinking about it, and then you went, you did it, uh, successfully.

So I’m intrigued because it’s leadership and you said like you geek on leadership and it’s a good trends. Um, and you’ve been in different part of the organization, led teams throughout different, uh, places. Is there kind of like a leadership experience or trade or something specific throughout that intrigued you to a level where you’re like, okay, I’m gonna study it.

I’ve gotta do a doctorate of leadership and organizational innovation. Like what, what really triggered that inside you?

Basil Upton: Uh, it’s a, it’s an innate curiosity. Always, always wondering, you know, what could, how could we tweak something? How could we change something to be able to bring out the best in people?

Um, and then how do we, how do we replicate it? And then the more you’re replicating it, how do we take it? And then improve it even more. And so for, for me, the, the leadership aspect of it was being able to dig deeper and, and better understand the, the theories that are out there, the, um, the history, be behind the theories, how they were developed, and then the innovation part, you know, the balance between risk and reward.

Deciding what are you going to, to take a chance on changing? What are the, what would be the impact of the changes that, that you make? Who’s going to benefit? Who will benefit, uh, the most from it, the stakeholder analysis that that goes into it? Um, it was very, there were a lot similarities in that to the, uh, to being a Lean Six Sigma black belt.

Uh, at Lilly. So you’re able to dig into the analysis of what are the, the soft skills that you’re changing. And I know one of your, your, your former guests talks about, um, how there aren’t really soft skills and, and, uh, renamed those and it was an amazing podcast. Uh, but that’s, that kind of sums it up and, and ties it together there.

Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. And you know, one of the things, as you were, you were saying about, you know, being Six Sigma soft skills, et cetera. And, um, yeah, we, we talked in one of the episodes about calling them smart skills instead of

mm-hmm.

Naji Gehchan: Of self. Mm-hmm. Um, but, you know, you’re, you’ve, you’re a servant leader. I know it, it’s not just you saying it.

Uh, and really part of what you’ve done. And I would love to go more into, uh, your research actually that you worked through, uh, the past years. Uh, and dissertation. Uh, there, there’s always this piece where. If you are more analytical data driven, six Sigma type of leader than the softest software we don’t care about.

But we, we discussed about this quite a bit where you and I do not believe in that like we believe mm-hmm. In the end. So yeah, tell me a little bit more about your thinking about that and also part of your research, I’m sure touches this too.

Basil Upton: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, so the research I did was. You know, it was entitled, you know, leading for Sustained Success, um, how, uh, a supervisor’s leadership style affects employee engagement in pharmaceutical sales professionals.

And I, and I wanted to look specifically at periods of varied sales performance. So if you look at any type of, of industry, regardless if it’s sales or not, they’re ups and downs and are leaders consistent. The, do their employees want them to be consistent? What are they looking for? So it started as a, as a very big question, and I set up the, the study was, was qualitative.

Um, and, you know, it was a, a phenomenological approach. So, you know, you always want to do research that hopefully someone will come after you and say, Hey, this looks neat. Let’s take it and try to replicate it. Or let’s do it in a different style such as quantitative. So hopefully, you know, someone will hear this and, and do that.

But it’s, it’s, it’s wondering, you know. Can the concept of leadership really start to be seen as, as the science aspect versus the art aspect of it. And as you started digging in, there were, um, three research questions that kind of drove, uh, the study. And the first one was, you know, what type of leadership styles or behaviors are most common?

During each period of varied sales performance, uh, according to, or, or, you know, perceived by pharmaceutical sales professionals. And, and the first thing that really was an aha was when I say, Hey, what’s your leadership style? If you say that to somebody, a lot of times you’re gonna hear about what are the behaviors they have and demonstrate as a leader.

But you don’t always hear, Hey, I’m a servant leader. I’m a transformational leader. Actually, I’m a transactional leader. And so in digging through this, there, there was a a lot of misunderstanding. And during the, the, the interviews I did with the subjects, I found that there was only one whose leader had told them specifically, Hey, I am a transformational leader.

All the others like. Based on, I don’t know what type of leadership style my leader has. They could tell me the behaviors, but they couldn’t tell me a specific style. Now, is that a big deal? Is it, is it monumental? Probably not, but, but to me, I think there needs to be a central foundation that you adopt as a leader.

That is your North star. And it doesn’t mean that you can’t adapt the behaviors you have as a leader to the individual, each individual that works with you. I mean, as a servant leader, you get to know who your, who your people are, what motivates them, what do they love, and you don’t change to, to different styles based on.

You, you don’t have to change your foundation based on that. So that was, um, the first research question and one of the interesting things that, that kind of popped up as, as we were going through it and then looking at how to changes in a, in the supervisor’s leadership style or behaviors, uh, affect pharmaceutical sales professionals engagement.

When the performance varies. The third research question was, um, which leadership style or behaviors provide positive engagement when sales performance does and and doesn’t meet sales quota? Then I actually had a, an unexpected result. So sometimes when, when you’re doing research, um, things just pop out that you, that you didn’t expect.

And I did have a, a interview question, not a research question, but an interview question where I said, Hey, are there any factors beyond your supervisor’s leadership style or behaviors that affect your engagement? Um, during periods when you are and are not meeting quota? I’ll go back to some of the other findings here, but this just really stood out and a a, a majority of the participants said, yeah, you know, my, my level, the level of teamwork I have with my coworkers and sometimes my direct, uh, partner, uh, really influence my engagement sometimes even more than, than what my supervisor does.

And so when, when you look through the, the study that I did, you know, some of the things you would say, Hey, yeah, uh, okay, that makes sense. I’m not shocked by, by some of what you’re sharing there, but to take it a step deeper and say, all right, well, what are we doing? We already know this. So we we’re learning that and we know that there’s this, uh, incredible, um, effect on engagement based on, you know, the relationship you have with your coworkers, the collaboration.

But how, how much do we actually do with that? You know, hey, if, if someone has a problem. Two people, coworkers aren’t working well together. Yeah, we, we have these great plans that we’ll put together, but how much are we taking advantage of the fact that we know this is variable that we can influence? How much time are we training our leaders?

How much time are we spending with coworkers to, to teach them how to really, truly be great teammates? How to great partners. From, from a business standpoint as well as just a relational standpoint. And do we do that consistently over time? Yeah, we could say, yeah, we had a workshop on that when they went through training or we did a, a, a one hour workshop at a meeting.

But truly is, is that enough? Is that really what’s going to take a advantage, give us an advantage for our people and make them more engaged? I think we could do better. I think we could all do a lot better there.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah, I, and you, I, I love this one. Uh, uh, because it’s basically also taking it as a leader once you develop those skills to ensure that you create an environment where people know how to collaborate and love collaborating and enjoys being with one another.

Right? Like, it, it’s also as a like, for you as a teammate and for you as a leader to create those environments, right? Because it’s. A lot in leadership. I’m not, I’m not sure if you’ve seen that also in your research. I’d be intrigued, but you know, I, I believe a lot in the ecosystem you build and as a leader around you, right?

For, for your people to thrive and how you build this culture and this environment for everyone to be at their best. So what was it, did you touch on some of those aspects or have you seen this in the research, especially on this engagement part? In the ups and downs.

Basil Upton: Yeah, so I saw, we looked, I looked more into that aspect of it in the relationship between the supervisor, uh, and the, uh, sales representative.

And you know, as I said with the first research question. The, the sales professionals weren’t really sure what the leader’s style was. They could describe the behaviors, but what their actual style was and then what drove them, what was, you know, the foundation of it, you know, they weren’t sure. Um, believe it or not, when the sales fluctuated, so do the behaviors.

And some the surprise. Yeah, total surprise. And sometimes it worked out well. Sometimes the changes, uh, produced worse engagement. So the, you know, factors that were really driving, you know, the, the positive results, the positive engagements related around active listening, uh, empathy. So EQ was a, a definite part.

And then, um, being able to, uh, roll up your shirt sleeves and get in there with your people and work together to make the change. It’s, it reminded me of the, the old. Leadership saying that you hear where leaders tell their people, don’t come to me with problems, come to me with solutions. Those were the, the type of behaviors that led to negative engagement.

But the leaders that said, come to me with your problems. Let’s sit down together and try to find out a solution that led to positive engagement. Um, I, I think that the recognition that was there. Uh, is is extremely important to, to drive the engagement, recognition of those that are overcoming the barriers that are dealing with circumstances that are outside of their control.

Environments change, uh, and the, you know, when the environment changes, it doesn’t mean you as a professional. Are not working as hard, or your skills aren’t as sharp or you’re not as, uh, committed. Um, most of those times people are, are working even harder to try and, uh, overcome that. So that recognition, the acknowledgement, strong eq, uh, especially active listening and uh, empathy really were some of the things that, uh, that, that, that, you know, drove the level of engagement that the sales professionals were feeling.

Naji Gehchan: So based on what you, after your research, your journey, your amazing experience across, um, different, different jobs and even the psychology piece. I, I, that’s, I always learn from, uh, something new about you when I meet with you, man. Uh, but really across all of those, is there an advice. You would give your younger self as you started being like first time manager, first time leading a team?

Basil Upton: Oh yeah. We could, we could, uh, a whole lot and I would say, uh, base will sit down. We have a lot to talk about. Uh, you know, when I was first trained in leadership, um. And, and when I first became a, a supervisor, uh, at Lilly, you know, I was, you know, cautioned to, to not, um, I would say get too close to people.

So it was the true traditional transactional style of leadership. And now where am I at the, in my opinion, the opposite end of that spectrum as a servant leader. So I would say, uh, here’s why. Servant leadership is the, the, uh, way to, to, uh, pursue, um, your style. This is the approach that needs to be your, your North star.

Um, that

the, the ability to. Help people outside of their job is a gift to, to understand the, the, the power that, uh, uh, an employer has, the effect that it has on their employees’ lives outside of work is tremendous. The amount of time they spend at work, the, the, the effect it has on, on someone’s, um. Physical and emotional wellbeing.

It’s, it’s a, it’s an incredible responsibility and to be first and foremost, so much aware of that. And I, I take it to, to be similar to what you had to do when you graduated from Medi Medical School and took the Hippocratic Oath. Do you know, first, do you no harm? Uh, that is what I would definitely tell my, tell myself if I had the opportunity to go back and, and start all over again, and then go back to some of the, the people I first manage and apologize for, I’m being a very good leader.

Yeah,

Naji Gehchan: yeah. No, but what, what you said is, uh, you know, I think a lot about it. Um. You said something really powerful that few managers as we start, think of right, the impact that you have on people’s lives. Mm-hmm. You know, not only growing them professionally, but as you, as you very well stated, it’s, it’s beyond that, right?

Like, how do they live in interaction they have with you? Are it tremendous responsibility? Are they depressed? Are they happy? Yeah. Do they feel better? Like at some point, you and I discussed this, but like having this framework in your head, like every, I want every interaction to be, to end up in a way where people feel good about themselves, even if it’s a very tough, crucial conversation about performance.

Basil Upton: Mm-hmm.

Naji Gehchan: Right. So I, I love how you framed it because yeah, we have a huge responsibility as managers. Of people, and we all lived different managers, right? Mm-hmm. And so their impact on ourselves. So I’m fascinated, like how we don’t sometimes think about it, like, yeah, like if I suffered from this, I shouldn’t probably replicate it.

Basil Upton: Yeah. There needs to be a very, uh, serious conversation for anybody when they begin, uh, their journey in leadership. Around the, the impact that they are going to have and how powerful that is. It doesn’t matter where you are, what industry, what level, but when you get into that, you need to, you need to be prepared and accept that responsibility.

You need to have, uh, a great system around you. To keep you grounded. You know, when we look at eq, um, I was, I was attending a, a, a talk the other day about, um, leadership and, and the presenter talked, was, was discussing EQ and said, you know, as a leader you need to be open to feedback. And, and I, I, I completely agree, you need to be open to feedback, but more importantly, you need to seek out.

Feedback, seek out diverse feedback. Don’t go to the people that you know are, are, know you well and will, um, that, that you see things similarly. It’s not going to be helpful for you and it’s not gonna be helpful for, for your people. So you, you absolutely need to get that feedback loop in there. Very strong.

Naji Gehchan: Yes. Yes. It, you’re touching so many different things you’re both passionate about, right? Like taking feedback, it’s humility also of accepting it. Mm-hmm. Acting on it, the diversity in those feedback. Certainly. I, I’m gonna go to a section you know very well where I’m gonna give you a word and I want to reaction to it.

Absolutely. And the first one we’ve been discussing quite a bit, but I always love to start with this. It’s leadership.

Basil Upton: Okay. So for, for me, when you, when I first hear leadership, I, I default to what’s the definition of leadership and then, um, you know, through, through the program, um, one of the authors of.

Our, our most impactful textbooks was, um, Peter North House. And, you know, based on, on what I learned there, I, I see the definition as influencing others through, uh, kindness, empathy, um, candor and accountability to achieve results. You know, I think he would boil it down probably more basic, where it’s, you know, could almost be influencing others to achieve results.

Another great definition of leadership I heard from, uh, an amazing leader I worked for once was, uh, leadership is love with discipline. That sound familiar?

Naji Gehchan: Oh, man.

Basil Upton: Yeah. Love with discipline. But again, it’s interesting if you were to sit down with 10 different people and ask them what’s your definition of leadership?

Just how different the responses, uh, could be. Is that good? Is that bad? I don’t know. Maybe, but, uh, I would say. You know, look at, you know, do you have actually a, a definition of it? You know it when you see it, but can you define it and to have that definition? So I think, I think people forget that with servant leaders, that there still is accountability.

Uh, you call it a discipline, um, that needs to be there. But you want to create an environment where people are, are okay. When that difficult or crucial conversation comes up, they’re okay with it. The best of the best will be looking for it. Um, but for you as a leader, you, you, you have to do a lot of work to make sure your team is ready for that and want to do that.

But yeah, when, when you say, all right, what comes to mind when you say leadership? I, I default to, to the definition and, um, yeah. You, you, your, uh, your definition stuck with me. Oh, thanks. Yeah, a few changes, but discipline, you

Naji Gehchan: should,

Basil Upton: it’s your style. It’s, it’s direct, it’s, it’s simple, but effective. I love it.

Naji Gehchan: Oh, thanks. That means a lot. The second one is performance

Basil Upton: performers or performance?

Naji Gehchan: Uh, performance.

Basil Upton: Performance, I think. Wow, that’s a, I wasn’t anticipating that one. You, you there. So performance. Performance is, is the discipline. It is the accountability. It, it’s your scorecard. Um, I think you people could say, Hey, you know what, I, I’m not a competitive person, but you still want to do the best in, in aspects of your life, I would hope.

So performance, um, you know, it certainly is, is something that it varies. I’d have to say that based on my research, uh, and you need to be prepared for the changes that come with changes in performance. I

Naji Gehchan: What about Nexus?

Basil Upton: Nexus. Love that one. A lot of people aren’t as in tune. So some, in some ways that’s an inside joke.

But, um, yeah, nexus that, uh, catalyst for change that comes in and the, uh, pinnacle of where greatness is. Absolutely. Tell me again, old friend, you got me again?

Naji Gehchan: Oh, yeah, yeah. That was like for the listeners. That was the name of our team.

Basil Upton: Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: Part of, uh, the last one is Spread Love and Organizations.

Basil Upton: Yeah.

I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I think I’m gonna stump you on on, or surprise you on, on this one. And, and for me, spread love in organizations is challenging the status quo. It is, you know, if we look at how do you, how do you know, how do you, how would you measure if there is love in your organization? My bias, employee engagement.

Is it, is it important? No, it’s crucial. It’s critical. It’s a lifeblood. You, you have to have the love there. So if it’s so important, then why the heck? Isn’t it a performance measurement, a KPI for companies? You know, we’re, you know, if, if you’re giving your quarterly earnings report to Wall Street, you’re talking about, you know, uh, what those earnings are, why aren’t you also saying, and guess what?

Here’s our employee engagement. I don’t care. It doesn’t have to be a company that’s on Wall Street. It could be any business, any nonprofit, any organization out there if they were to publish what their employee engagement score is. How would that impact the performance of the company? I have, again, I think it would dramatically increase it.

You know, you’re shopping for any type of of service and you can see what the employee engagement score is, where are you going to go? And I would just, I would love to see, um, finally some. Quantitative data that shows or more, uh, in, in a way that people will finally act on that shows here’s the company’s employee engagement score, here is their performance.

Because we, we talk a lot about, um, the importance of employee engagement, but where do the things like training people, uh, training leaders continually on eq, collaboration skills, uh, all of those things that affect it, where do they appear in the, in the shuffle of what’s getting done at the company and where the company spends their time?

It’s not, I think a lot of times it is just not there because people are saying, well, I know that if I pull this lever, I’m gonna see this change in performance. Whether it’s it, it could be in any situation. But so for me to spread love in organizations right now in this world, it is to challenge the status quo because there’s not enough of it out there.

Am I right or am I wrong?

Naji Gehchan: Man, I’m biased. So, you know, so you know which side I will take. Uh, I love it and I love how you’re framing it. Any final word of wisdom? Uh, basically for healthcare leaders around the world?

Basil Upton: Yeah, I, I would challenge I of the leaders you’ve had, so over. About what a 160 or so leaders that you’ve had on your podcast to honestly go back and seek feedback.

How have you spread love in your organization since you’ve been a guest on NA’s show? How have you taken. Your future leaders, your talent pipeline sat down with them and said, let’s talk about spreading love in an organization. What does that mean? Uh, I, I remember, you know, one of the, the things you, you said to our, our leadership team when we were discussing, uh, diversity, equity, and inclusion.

You said, we need to get to the point where DEI is in our DNA well. Spread love in organizations concept needs to be in the curriculum for future leaders. And if everyone on your, uh, uh, any, every one of your guests, all of us were to go back and say, okay, gimme feedback. How am I doing this? How can I get better doing it?

We’d get wonderful, innovative ideas from incredible people that would drive the engagement. And guess what? Help more customers, help more patients, help the people that that we serve every day, because that’s what we do. We serve others. Those are my final thoughts, my friend.

Naji Gehchan: Well, my friend, thank you so much for being with me today.

I, um, I more than enjoyed it. I miss working with you, but who knows what the future holds.

Basil Upton: You never know. Things keep coming full circle.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks again for being with me today, so it was a great chat.

Basil Upton: Thank you Dr. Naji Gehchan. Appreciate you.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show. For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to spread love io.com or whatever you listen to podcasts.

Let’s inspire a change together and make a positive impact in healthcare. One story at a time.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

This is a special episode, the second of a series in partnership with Biosciences Lebanese International Network – BioLink.  

I’m Naji your host, joined today by Rania Abou Samra Vice President and Head of Innovation and Research & Development at Nestlé Middle East and North Africa. With over 20 years of experience in Nutrition and R&D, Rania has a strong technical and scientific background that drives innovation forward. Prior to her current role, she assumed the position of Global Head of Product & Technology Development for Nestlé Health Science, following her tenure as Vice President of Research and Development at the Vital Proteins business. Rania’s professional journey includes her previous roles as Global Director of Science and Technology at Nestlé Health Science and Global R&D Lead for Consumer Care. Across various Nestlé research centers, she has lent her expertise to diverse sectors as well as her entrepreneurial spirit, translating scientific and technical insights into breakthrough innovations for both patients and consumers.

She earned both her Bachelor’s and Master’s degrees in Nutrition and Dietetics from the American University of Beirut, followed by a PhD in Obesity and Nutrition from the University of Toronto.

Rania aligns her mission with her passion to advance nutrition and positively impact lives through science. Her unwavering commitment to making the benefits of nutrition accessible to all remains a driving force in her personal and professional pursuits.

Great to have you Rania!

Rania Abou Samra: Thank you. Thank you for hosting me, uh, Naji. I’m really excited to be on your amazing podcast and looking forward to a wonderful discussion.

Naji Gehchan: Uh, great. I’d love first, uh, to hear more about your personal story, what’s behind the story of who you are today?

Rania Abou Samra: Uh, sure. Happy to share. So my story started in, in Lebanon. Um, I am, uh, I’m originally Lebanese like you, uh, and, uh, I, uh, I grew up in a, in a small town in, uh, in a little bit north of Lebanon. And, uh, ever since I was a kid, I was really fascinated by everything, biology and chemistry. And, um, I do recall, um, when I decided early on in my life that I wanted to study nutrition, which is, uh, a passion of mine and still remains a passion of mine.

It was really with this, with this, uh, very, uh, noble, um, goal is to help, you know, uh, fight malnutrition in the world. Um, started off that way. I did my studies in nutrition and at some point I started going into research and um, and I discovered that actually malnutrition is not the only problem that the world is suffering from it’s obesity and diabetes.

So that led me to doing a PhD on appetite regulation, studying gut hormones, uh, and uh, one of them was GLP one. And looking at its effect on, on weight loss, um, in obese, uh, and diabetic, uh, populations. Um, after that I was actually adamant that I’m gonna go into an academic career and then all of a sudden I had the, one of the biggest food companies, food and beverage companies in the world reach out to me and say, would you like to come work for us?

I hesitated a little bit. I remember my supervisor telling me, you know what, you can always come back, go try it out for a couple of years, and you can always come back to academia. Here we are 20 years later, still working at Nestle, uh, and did not regret it, not once. Um, moving around at Nestle. Different roles, always in innovation and r and d, um, and uh, going into different categories.

Loving the reach that Nestle has and the capabilities to be able to innovate. Um, and the fact that they do sponsor a lot of research, um, is, is, is such a, makes it such an exciting company. And, uh, and as well the fact that you, you get to really go around geographically and, you know, um, experience the different cultures around the world because you, because of the, of the breadth of the company.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks Ranya for sharing. I, I, I love this mission. You said you started because you wanted to fight malnutrition in the worked. So if I, if I go there, how do you make sure these days you connect through your mission, your purpose, your leadership, uh, with, with your teams to ensure that actually in your daily work, this is happening?

Rania Abou Samra: Yeah, absolutely. I, I, I’m still a nutritionist at heart, uh, and I, I never forget this, uh, what in everything I do. So whenever, whenever we’re looking at innovation and regardless of any category, um, nutrition is always the first question I ask. Um, and, and it all depends on who we are catering to, but in certain areas of the world, actually, we do make a, we, we are able to make an impact because, um, first of all, um, the, the reach.

That, that a company like Nestle and its products has, um, if you do make a fortification on a product in a certain market where there are major nutritional deficiencies, um, and you know for a fact that your product is consumed by, let’s say, 90% of the population, then you know that you’re creating, you know, an impact through that amazing reach.

Um, you know, I and I, and I think that I consider myself very lucky because I’m able to actually see that impact through the work that I do. But making sure that I put nutrition first and insisting that, you know, uh, ev all the innovations that we do should be nutrition and science-based.

Naji Gehchan: So this connection, I, I love it.

You know, like, and you’ve been able to connect obviously your, your deep science expertise on nutrition and then improving people’s lives. And several times we think about, and, you know, several of the. Uh, the guests I host are really focused on medicines, on, uh, on bio technologies. Uh, you know, when you talk about nutrition, we don’t immediately potentially connect it with, you know, proving labs, which is very wrong actually, because you, you do it and it’s, it’s the startup, all of it.

Yeah. So how do you make sure that actually science and this improvement of your life of are always connected and truly reaches, uh, and transform, uh, lives in meaningful ways?

Rania Abou Samra: I think, I think at the end of the day, um, what we’re doing is, to your point, we’re not, we’re not in the business of doing drugs.

Uh, so we’re not basically trying to heal, uh, or, or trying to recover from a disease. What we focus on is prevention. How are we able to prevent that someone goes into a situation where they need the drugs? Right. Um, and, and by focusing on the deficiencies and, and, you know, deficiencies do not have to always only be with populations that are malnourished, right?

So you have people that are, are obese, overweight, but they do have significant, uh, micronutrient deficiencies because the quality of their diet is very, very poor. Right. So at the end of the day, by knowing your consumer, but also knowing what are the gaps that consumer has, um, then, you know, whatever innovation you do is not only gonna taste good because I know we are in the business of making confectionery and, and, and coffee and, and we’re, we’re pleasurable experiences to consumers.

But also, how can I. Get to that sweet spot where I’m not only making them, you know, enjoy what they’re consuming, but it’s also making them feel better in terms of avoiding them to have to get to a situation where, you know, they get to a deficient, uh, state. Um, so, so it’s always. Tricky because, you know, sometimes in certain categories you’re not gonna be able to fortify, let’s say a bar, a confectionary bar.

But you can always, uh, work on talking about what is the appropriate portion size, you know, how much, what is, what is basically eating, uh, uh, enjoying it, but, but being, being mindful of how much you’re eating so that you’re not creating excessive calories. Um, and also with that, coming with other products.

That would contribute to that, you know, pleasurable experience. So it’s not just about, you know, confectionary, it’s also about are you, are you drinking, um, a, a beverage that has enough protein for you? What other functional ingredients can you put in there to help you make you feel better? Um, and, and, uh, and then you combine the two together, make sure that they taste good so that people can, you know, enjoy it at the same time.

Naji Gehchan: So I, I have to ask you this question. You’ve done a PhD in obesity, uh, and nutrition. It’s the era of, you know, GLP ones and, and all the, all the change around it. And you’re, you talked about, which I truly believe in, is all this preventative. Care and preventive medicine, uh, and starts with kids. Um, and then like there’s all those discussions these days about protein based, uh, diets.

Yeah. Uh, there’s, uh, all, finally we’re talking about the ultra processed food and the mega ultra processed food like I I any like generalistic thoughts about all this era we’re moving towards, especially if you think like, what’s, what’s next for, uh, for us as a humans in this field?

Rania Abou Samra: Yeah, I mean, I think, I think you cannot, um, escape mentioning, you know, the GLP one analogs when you talk about obesity these days.

Right. The two topics come together and, uh, I, I think, I think the, the GLP one analogs are a great solution to help people that have morbidities and comorbidities, right? So, so it is a way to, to, to prolong, you know, the, the, the health span. Um, however. No, no drug comes without side effects. Maybe I’m overgeneralizing, but you know, even when you combine the, what, the current solution, which is a really good solution, the side effects are quite strong, meaning you have, uh, a huge, uh, loss of muscle.

Uh, you tend to also, um, have, uh, uh, side effects on your skin, your hair, your nails. Uh, you have GI side effects. You’re dehydrated because people spend a long time not consuming anything. So, so from that perspective, I think where we as a food company could come in and help is by providing solutions to accompany the people who will be taking the GLP one analogs.

Because the, it, it, it’s hard to escape it. You know, I, I was a dietician for a while. I was seeing patients who were obese and, and I can tell you, they were always asking me about, is there a magic bullet? Is there a pill? Is there something I can just take? Because I really don’t want to be on a diet for a long time.

So, you know, from a behavioral perspective, you know, we’re, we’re just lazy. You know, we don’t want to make an effort and think about everything we eat because food gives us pleasure. So the minute food becomes un, you know, a source of, of anxiety, then it’s an issue. Right? So, so I, I, I do believe that, you know, we need to combine the reality of the fact that these GLP one analogs are gonna be available.

They’re gonna be cheaper and everybody’s gonna take them. But we as nutritionists as a food company, we have actually a responsibility to make sure that we provide products to make sure these people are losing weight, but losing weight safely. And they are not losing on their health while they’re losing the weight.

So, so, so that’s basically it. I mean, I, I know that wasn’t probably the answer you’re expecting ’cause you’re, but, but to be honest. This is, I mean, I, I’m in a, I’m in a region right now where everybody is taking GLP one analog and it’s available, easily accessible to everyone. So we need to make, basically face the three reality and say, how can we play a role there?

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. And it’s, uh, I, I love how you’re framing it, you know, sometimes, and there’s more and more research, uh, as you said about. Um, you know, obesity as itself linked to sometimes like it’s a disease, right? Like, and more and more we’re seeing like how, uh, how we can, um, how we can help, uh, patients and yeah, it feels like there is a before and after.

Yeah. Those drugs and obesity is by itself linked to many risk factor. Like, you know, like it’s a risk factor to many diseases. So, so it’s great to hear like how you’re thinking about how to combine through innovation. And help patients who are on GLP ones. ’cause Yeah, I feel. Yeah, we can’t escape it anymore for, for some parts of the regions.

No. Uh, if I pivot now to, um, your leadership, uh, through, um, through, through all your career, you’ve done it in different roles, in different parts of the world. You’re in Switzerland, you, us now you’re in, uh, leading Middle East and we’re talking, you’re in Dubai. Um, and, and you come from Lebanon. You started with that, like coming from, um, from the north part of, uh, this small country.

Uh, how did all this kind of shape your leadership style and how you lead today?

Rania Abou Samra: Um. I tell you, it’s not easy, you know, it’s not easy for a Lebanese girl, um, to, to, you know, coming from a culture that you’re probably familiar with where, um, and we were talking about that earlier, it’s all very emotional.

You’re, everybody expresses themselves very openly and then you get sometimes into cultures where. You should not express your feelings that it’s frowned upon if you are venting. Um, so you, you tend to start working on yourself to adapt and become, not necessarily not who you are, but, but, but really make sure that you’re mindful of the people around you.

Um, so, so in a way, you know, I try to remain true to who I am. The Lebanese person who can express themselves and, and, and show emotions, not, not. Not shy away from that, but you know, in a way like, like make sure they’re framed. There’s an occasion for it. So, so, you know, I, I speak about specifically emotions because that’s, that’s a very Lebanese thing.

And, um, and I mean, we have, we have a lot of, um, amazing attributes culture wise, where, you know, we’re very good negotiators, we’re extremely resilient. Um, and, and we, we tend, we tend to not give up easily. Right. Um, and I guess it’s because of, of, you know, first of all, living through different wars, uh, being able to manage.

Chaos, chaos, not getting lost easily. Because, because, uh, you know, we, we did not grow up in a place where everything was clearly, uh, signaled, outlined, and you knew how to find your way. So these are like amazing positive attributes that you can bring in on the table, but at the same time, you kind of have to manage the whole expressing yourself too much emotional, et cetera, to, to adapt to certain cultures.

So it’s kind of a balancing act. And at the same time, opening up to learning from these cultures. A lot of things, learning how to be on time. And this is not something that, you know, our culture is, is known for, you know, um, that, that delivering on, on the promise and not overpromising when, and not able, being able to deliver, uh, being very organized.

Um, and so and so, and. Planning for the future. Uh, you know, I, I may, I might be probably over stereotyping here and, and Naji, please correct me if I’m wrong, but you know, you know, coming from a culture where you, you grow up where you don’t know if you’re gonna live, uh, next month or next year because of you’re in a situation in a war or economic situation is so volatile.

People tend to want to live day by day. Um, not plan too much for the distant future. You know, that’s, that’s always a good learning for me. That actually, no, you know, it’s better if you, if you do plan for the future and it, it makes you a better person and less anxious. Um, so, so, you know, lots of great learning going through, but I can tell you, um, you know, it, it, it all depends on how adaptable you are.

Um, you know, uh, you, it doesn’t mean you have to lose your identity completely. As a Lebanese, you can always keep that identity. You can always take it out when, when the time is, is right, when you’re either surrounded with Lebanese or you feel like it’s a safe space, but you know, you have to adapt to other cultures because at the end of the day, what’s the use of leaving Lebanon?

Traveling around the world, if you don’t learn anything and you hold onto the Lebanese culture and say, that’s it, that’s the only way, and that’s who I am. So right now, if you ask me, Rana, are you Lebanese? I tell you, I don’t know if I’m Lebanese anymore. Uh, but I’m not necessarily Swiss or American. So I’m, I would say I’m just this global citizen that is, has pieces of Switzerland, pieces of the US that I learned along the way.

And then, yes, my DNA is Lebanese. I actually ha sh. Even prove that through 23 and me testing.

Naji Gehchan: I love it. I, I obviously relate to so many different things you said, you know, I always, uh, even remember my dad always saying, you know, every day is a bonus, you know, to what, what you’re saying, like, planning for tomorrow.

Uh, and sometimes you go the opposite way. Actually, my reaction was like, oh, I need to be organized. I need to exactly what you said and you learn doing it. But certainly, uh, you know, now I, I feel like not Lebanese planning my weekends and what I want to do over the next three months. So there is some downsides.

I think all my Lebanese friends are, think we are now crazy.

Um, yeah. Another part you talked about trying, in the very beginning of your sentence, you said a little girl from Lebanon. You’ve been also remarkably leading. Um, not only senior executive positions, but also a path in science, which is also, I know, and not only Lebanon, across the world actually, we still see all those, uh, unfortunate, uh, biases, right?

Where women in leadership is still not where it needs to be. Uh, and women in stem, uh, are still not where it needs to be. You know, even if there is some advances, sometimes we feel we go forward. Then 10 steps backwards. So, uh, what is, who aspire? Like how, how, how, what would you say? To girls, women, I’m biased.

I have two daughters, uh, you know, looking into the future and, and those young women, especially in stem, who aspire to lead with both excellence and heart.

Rania Abou Samra: I think, um, I think the bias, unfortunately, NJI starts from kindergarten. You know, I, I, um, I remember, you know, um, my, I have, I have a niece, she’s, uh, two years old, and, um, you know, and she was still not exposed to kindergarten or any, any of that, you know, I remember I, I wanted to get her a gift and my brother tells me, you know, she loves cars.

Soccer balls. I’m like, oh my God, this is amazing. So I get her horse ball and cars and you know, I’m very excited, you know, and then the minute she starts kindergarten, she comes back, she wants to wear pink, she wants to carry a bag, she wants to put nail polish. And my brother’s like, what happened? I mean, I mean the, the nothing against pink and nail polish, but, but I do believe that society has a big role to play on in terms of, um, brainwashing young women at a very young age.

Into what they, they are to become. And, and I’ll, I’ll get to the stem in one minute, but honestly this is my personal observation. When I go to buy a gift for a little girl, there’s the girl section in the toy store, and I’m sure Naji, you’ve lived it with two girls. Yeah. I mean, you have ironing boards, baby vacuum cleaners, strollers with dolls.

It you, you, it’s very hard to find stem toys. Yeah. In the play, in the, in the girls. Section. All right. Yeah, no, but why, so my question is why, you know, who, how is it that we are programming these little girls from like kindergarten with the toys they receive on their birthdays? Even if we as parents say, no, I want them to be gender neutral on this, and I don’t want any brainwashing, and I’m gonna only give them puzzles and stem toys and rockets to build.

But, but you know, the minute they get to school, the minute they’re hanging out, it’s society that is impacting and that’s very sad. You know what I mean? Yeah. I can tell you when I was growing up. In school, we had, um, I was, I was in a, in, there was, in our school, there was the math section, the experimental science section, and the literary section.

Um, that’s, that’s basically a little bit French, uh, school system, the way, what we have in Lebanon. So I, I actually went to the experimental sciences because I, my passion was biology and chemistry since I was a girl and we were three girls out of a class of 25. The math section had zero girls.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah.

Rania Abou Samra: And then all the girls went to literary and you were considered like the, the exception, um, to, to the rule.

You know what I mean? Like Yeah. You know, it’s so, so you have to have so much resilience to be in a class where all the boys are around you and you’re only three girls. It takes a lot. So, so I’m not trying to say, oh my God, I had a lot. I’m saying how hard is it if you are an introverted girl, a shy girl?

To survive and then eventually, because you’re in this experimental path, end up going into STEM in university. Right. Um. It’s very hard. So, so, you know, you, you, you kind of have to do an extra fight and you kind of have to build your seminal, um, to resist to it. And, um, you know, I mean, I ended up being the president of the class and, um, it was a funny ongoing joke that, that Rania is a, is not, is really a boy, not a girl, but when Oh wow.

Naji Gehchan: You know.

Rania Abou Samra: Um, but, but, but, but it’s, it’s just, it takes a lot of grits, likes a lot of gut to survive in these environments. Right. Um, and then when we went to university. It was a little bit more balanced, but in nutrition, um, every, there were all girls and like two boys, so it was, it felt good actually to have the imbalance.

But you know, like nursing, these are two disciplines where girls are more than boys, but it’s still in stem. And I thought that was, that was really nice. Um, after the, afterwards I went to do my dietetic internship at the hospital and I was, uh, a dietician there and I remember, um, crossing path with the, with the surgery fellows, and there were around 10.

Men, uh, studying surgery. And there was one girl and, uh, they, the joke was that she was, uh, actually a boy, not a girl, because how could she survive doing surgery as a fellow, being a girl? Apparently it’s not a girl’s thing. Hmm. But you know, I mean, all this is a little bit of a psychological, uh, brainwash, you know what I mean?

Yeah. And unless you’re extremely stubborn and you really know what you want, if you’re having any self-doubt, you’ll drop off. That line. You know what I mean?

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. Um, and, and unfortunately it’s, it’s still here. Like I’ve experienced it.

Yep.

All of it with my young daughter still now, you know, like even clothing, like I went and had a.

Yeah. Big

argument with this story because like all their closeting is they, they, I couldn’t find anything in the girl’s section with astronauts. And my girl like was, you know, like my daughter was like four years and this is what she wanted. They’re like, no, it’s only four boys. It’s like, what? What? Yeah.

Ands the same, like, she went to a robotics summer camp. She was the only girl, you know, so it’s unfortunately, uh, it’s so true. Yeah. It’s hard even today for, for them and hard for us as parents to ensure that they’re not, you know, the society doesn’t shape them in ways that Exactly. They shouldn’t be shaped.

Rania Abou Samra: Yeah. I mean, I think in keeping to encourage them, but also making sure that they have mentors outside, like role models, you know what I mean? That they could look up and say, you know what? You can do it. You can do it. You know, just, just because you’re the only girl. Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. Don’t

Rania Abou Samra: worry about it. You can

Naji Gehchan: do it.

Uh, they, they will, they will listen to this episode right now. Oh my God.

Rania Abou Samra: I’d love to talk to them. I’d love to, for sure. For sure, for sure.

Naji Gehchan: Great. Well, uh, I, I’m gonna now give you a word and I would love your first reaction to it. The first one is leadership.

Rania Abou Samra: So my first reaction, what comes to my mind when I, when you say leadership? Okay. For me, leadership, leadership is about, um, resilience is about, um, a group and team basically empowering your team to get to where you wanna go. Um, leadership is about fairness. It’s about, um, making sure, um, you know, you’re, you’re not putting yourself before others.

Um, leadership is about remaining humble and continuing to learn, um, and always being open to learn and admitting that you’ve made a mistake and, and being okay, um, with it. Um. Yeah. Leadership is showing walking the talk, basically being the example, being the role model and showing things the way they are being transparent.

Naji Gehchan: What about innovation?

Rania Abou Samra: Oh, innovation, agility. Being fast, failing fast. You know, for me, innovation and failing fast go hand in hand because I can tell you, and I’ve had a loss of experiences, there’s no glory in innovation without many, many failures behind it. So if, if you wanna do any innovation, you gotta be very ready to prepare to fail many, many times before getting there.

If you’re lucky, you might get there the first time, but you haven’t learned anything and it I, for me, it’s a lucky strike. Which, which makes the second innovation, you need to do a tough one because you didn’t learn. Um, but honestly, uh, these days, um, if you wanna, if you wanna innovate properly, uh, first you have to know your consumer, your patient, but, but also you have to be very agile.

But you have to be ready to launch things that are at 60% and then iterate and not seek perfection. Um, basically perfection is the enemy of innovation.

Naji Gehchan: What about Biolink?

Rania Abou Samra: Biolink is a breath of fresh air. Najee Biolink for me, came at the right time, you know, um, I was, I was in New Jersey, I was working, um, at Nestle Health Science, and I was starting to have these, I was, uh, you know, as you were discussing existentialist questions about why, what am I doing to pay back?

To my country. I left, I was 24. I continued my studies abroad. I worked abroad. But besides going back on vacation and helping family and friends, what have I done? To advance my country. And, uh, and honestly, the, when, when I remember when Francois reached out to me to join Biolink, it was exactly the right time.

I was ready. I was thinking, how can I pay back? And it was really the right forum for me to be, to be there and be part of this amazing, um, team of individuals that are really all behind one goal, one mission. Um, and, and that is to basically revive Lebanon. Bring back, bring Lum back on, its two feet. Um, and, and, you know, um, I think the healthcare angle is, is the best one because we do have amazing talent in healthcare.

Uh, you’re one of them najee. And, you know, by leveraging the amazing talent that we have, uh. Together. I think we can definitely help Lebanon a lot. Um, and it, and then, you know, it’s, uh, for me it’s, it’s creating this forum for us and, and I’m sure we all have that deep in our hearts. We want to give back.

And we didn’t know how, you know, we didn’t wanna do charity. We really wanted to do something where it’s more sustainable, where you give them the tools and then it grows. Um. No, I’m, I’m, you know, I’m very excited about Biolink. Love it.

Naji Gehchan: I, uh, I am too. And what better angle than healthcare and, and then connecting with incredible leaders like, like you and many others.

The last, uh, the last word is spread love in organizations.

Rania Abou Samra: First of all, I love the title. You know? Um, every time I tell someone, oh, there’s this podcast you have to hear, you have to listen to. It’s called Spread Love. The minute you say Spread Love, of course, afterwards they ask, what’s io? But the minute you say Spread love. There’s an instant smile because, you know, it, it creates a very, um, how do you call reaction, natural reaction to, um, the, this positive vibe.

You know what I mean? So, so I think, I think honestly, you’re, um, first of all, you nailed it with the title spot on, and second of all, I love the fact that you’re also focusing on healthcare with it. You know, um, because to be honest, this is our expertise. This is our domain. This is what we know, and you’re totally leveraging that, um, and your network to spread love.

Right. Um, and, and you know, I don’t need to tell you about how health is, is at the center of everything we do and also as humanity, you know what I mean? We’re not gonna get anywhere without help if we’re not healthy, right? So, um, so it also touches upon that, um. So, um, I, I, I love your podcast. I’m, I’m spreading the word

thanks, right.

Start seeing weird people connecting from Mena. That would be me, you know, telling everybody, you know, that you have to listen to this, you know, podcast. That’s amazing. So, yeah.

Naji Gehchan: Oh, thanks. Right. Any final word of wisdom for, uh, healthcare leaders around the world?

Rania Abou Samra: I think, um. I think to, you know, today, the healthcare, um, you know, when, when you say healthcare, um, a lot pharma comes to mind right away, right?

And, and, uh, you know, maybe it’s too idealistic and, uh, but, but I think at the end of the day, whoever works in healthcare should think about how can we advance humanity versus advance the stocks of the company. You know what I mean? Because, uh, because, because to be honest, there’s no use of us, um, creating solutions that a lot of people can’t afford to, you know, can’t afford, basically.

Period. And they can’t make use of, so why are we, why are we working on it as human beings? You know what I mean? Like, if we can’t have, give the, give them access to it, what’s the point? I get it. We wanna make money, but, but then why work in healthcare? Go go work in banking, go become a lawyer. Nothing against bankers and lawyers, but, but, you know, because, because I mean, I remember I went into nutrition, I went to health because I felt like I want to, you know, do better for the people, for the humans, people who study medicine, they have, you know, the, the oath, right?

People. So when you, the minute you’re in healthcare, you’re in the business of making people’s lives better. So are you really making people’s lives better? Are you making people’s pockets, some people’s pockets better? I know I’m sounding very on an evening on Tuesday sounding to your topic, but, um, basically that’s, that’s just my thought.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for these thoughts and leaving us with this big question, how can we advance humanity and are we really making lives better? I, I love it As a question to keep in mind, thank you so much Rania again for being with me today. You’re welcome.

Rania Abou Samra: Thank you. I truly enjoyed it. Thanks, Naji.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

This episode is in partnership with the Termeer Foundation, a nonprofit organization working to vibrantly connect and empower the world of healthcare innovators until every patient has a cure.

I am Naji your host, joined today by Charlene Son Rigby, Chief Executive Officer of Global Genes. Charlene has spent her career building organizations at the intersection of data, technology, and life sciences. Charlene led the merger between Global Genes and RARE-X, a health technology nonprofit. She was previously Chief Business Officer at Fabric Genomics and held executive roles at enterprise software and genomics companies, including Oracle and Doubletwist. She started her career in neuroscience research at Roche. When Charlene’s daughter was diagnosed with a rare genetic disease, she co-founded the STXBP1 Foundation. She is committed to finding a cure for her daughter’s disorder. Charlene’s unplanned connection between her personal life and profession has helped push forward the search for a cure for her daughter and kids like her, and given her work deeper meaning. Charlene is a Termeer Scholar. She holds a B.A. in Human Biology from Stanford University and an M.B.A. from the Haas School of Business at U.C. Berkeley.

Charlene Son Rigby: Thanks so much for having me, Naji.

Naji Gehchan: I’d love first to hear more about your personal story and how it links with the really important and impactful work you are doing today.

Charlene Son Rigby: Yeah, so I am a parent of a now 11-year-old who has a rare, rare neurodevelopmental disorder called STX BP one, and my daughter. So my daughter was born in 2013, and. A few months after she was born, she started experiencing delays and we kept hoping that these were just, uh, temporary and she was going to, she was going to norm.

But it became pretty obvious after she was six or seven months old that, you know, she was. Not, um, moving toward kind of typical development. And so we pushed really hard with her pediatrician and we were able to get to, uh, a geneticist at University of California, San Francisco. So we live in San Francisco and they, that started for us a three year journey to try to find out what was going on with my daughter.

So we went through, you know, something like. 27 different tests. We were finally approved for, uh, genomic sequencing, whole exome sequencing. And that gave us an answer that she had a mutation in this gene that was involved in communication between neurons. Um, so it was a really difficult answer, and I think that no, no parent or patient wants to get this type of answer and.

At the same time, it was very, very, an important piece of information because it gave us a door, it gave us a key to, you know, what we could possibly do next for, you know, for my daughter. And so. We were given a couple of scientific papers by the geneticist and a printout of a Facebook group, and after a few months, I finally got the courage to join the Facebook group, and we found five other families and started a foundation for, for St.

Xb P one. Really our goal was to accelerate research and kickstart therapies. We were really quite lucky because even though it was a very, very small disorder, so at the time there were 200 kids who had been diagnosed. There was a lot of basic and translational research that had defined what S Tx BP one did.

In, you know, in the, in the body. And so we were able to really leverage that and start to, you know, build the strategy around how we would accelerate therapies. And so that’s how I got into the rare disease space. Not as a technologist, but as a a, a patient and a pa, a care a care.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much, uh, for sharing this, uh, this story.

So from, from that moment to now working, uh, as a CEO at Global Genes, can you tell us a little bit more about your work and where this stands, uh, currently?

Charlene Son Rigby: Yeah. Yeah. I. Got very, very passionate about this idea around how we can accelerate work across rare diseases when we were working on my daughter’s disorder.

So we started. With very little, frankly, in terms of, in terms of the pieces that were needed to, you know, start to develop therapies and accelerate therapies. And so we, um, we started to develop things like data assets, and I was realizing that those are things that. You really could create a much more leverageable infrastructure for, to work across rare diseases.

And, you know, since my background is in data analytics and in the, you know, basically generating insights out of data, it was very natural for me to, to focus on that part of the problem. And so I ended up leaving industry and moving over to a nonprofit called Rare X that was building a cross disorder.

Pro research program to collect data across rare diseases and do it in a way that enabled patients to really be the drivers of that research. So we partner, um, very closely with patient advocacy organizations to do that in, in that data collection. And then a year and a half after I joined that organization, we merged it, as you said in the introduction, we merged.

Rare X with a larger organization called Global Genes. Global Genes has been in the nonprofit space for over 16 years, focused on enabling and empowering rare disease patients and advocates. And so with bringing together those two organizations, we now have, uh, services and offerings around support, education, as well as research.

Naji Gehchan: This is really crucial, especially in this space, obviously, where there’s less resources. So it’s really meaningful for all the patients. I’m also, I also work within the rare disease space. I’d love to get your thoughts about really the biggest challenges for rare diseases currently, as you think from a research standpoint and discovering new medicine like there is this.

Uh, really big technologies that we’re seeing with, uh, genes, genes editing, gene therapy, cell therapy, et cetera, that can help. Um, so there is the hope and there are the challenges being faced with those rare diseases. So I’d love to hear your thoughts as you’ve been heavily involved and, and advocating for patients.

Charlene Son Rigby: Yeah. As you said, this is a really exciting time. Yeah. Uh, as, as hard as the path in rare disease is, it’s also a really promising time. All of these genetic therapies, these therapies that have the potential to be disease modifying, you know, precision therapies, you know, um, even these, these approaches that are much more.

Scalable around repurposed drugs, like identify, identifying, promising, repurposed drugs that, you know, has the, the potential to really change the rare disease landscape. The, the challenge, you know, one, a major challenge that I see is that for a lot of rare diseases, the drive. To develop therapies for that specific rare disease really comes from the patients and there are very few patients, and so we have this kind of, if you will, financial gap where.

There are a number of companies that are making medicines for rare disease and have committed, you know, that they, that they have an emphasis on rare disease or an emphasis for part of their portfolio on rare disease, you know? But right now, because of the. Cost to develop those, uh, medicines, to get them all the way through a, an approval process out onto, you know, um, out onto the market.

There’s a real challenge in terms of making that. Uh, economic argument, especially early in the process where that disorder, you know, might not have a lot of kind of the fundamental research that that needs to happen in order to, um, if you will call it de-risked. So what we see, and frankly, part of the reason why we merged Global Genes and Rare X is because we see this.

I, I’ll say, frankly, really exciting phenomenon of what we’re calling the next generation advocate, and it’s patients who are taking it upon themselves to kickstart research, you know, in their disease. And the, you know, the, I’ll say that, you know, we have done this in my daughter’s disorder in terms of doing this kick-starting, you know, but I’ll also say that.

You know, we, in our founding board, we had a couple of people, myself and another person who had, you know, some, some biology background. You know, when, when I was, of course, when I was studying genetics in, in, um, 19 Forgotten, as my father says, we were still talking about Mendel and Peas. You know, it was very, very different from today.

But you know, a lot of patients are, you know, have, don’t have a biology background. They might not have a business background. They’re coming from whatever background they came from, and yet they have such urgency. Around needing to have, you know, something that is going to truly be impactful for, you know, them, for their, you know, family member for their community.

And it’s that passion and activation that is really kickstarting, you know, therapeutic development in so many of these rare diseases. So. It is a huge challenge because there is a, um, you know, a knowledge gap that you know is that, that advocates are working as hard as possible to try to address, and also to build that ecosystem of partners in terms of, you know, folks who do understand those processes or who have brought drugs to market.

Um, you know, and, and need to be part of that ecosystem to make that, you know, ultimately successful.

Naji Gehchan: I love how you framed it. Next generation advocates, you said. Mm-hmm. So can, can you tell us a little bit more, or if you have an example where, um, where, where you had this impact? And ultimately the, the research gets started, as you said, and the spark of research gets started.

Charlene Son Rigby: Yeah. I’m gonna use a very old example and then I can talk about a newer one because one of the, I, I read breath from Salt a, a year or so ago, and I was just so struck because. It was hard to believe that the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation started, you know, 90 years before they had an approved therapy. And, you know, the, the commitment of that community and those families and, you know, the amount of money that they raised, the, the researchers that they got involved, you know, the.

The, the, I mean, literal creation of an industry around, around cystic fibrosis was just truly impressive. And so I think that that’s a success story, but it’s also a 90 year success story. And so if we fast forward to where we are today with, you know, all of these new therapeutic approaches and are. Much clearer understanding of the genetic underpinnings of many of these diseases because, you know, 80% of rare diseases do have a genetic cause.

So we, we now have the ability to kind of shrink this problem. Right. And. Um, I’ll just give a an another example in the neurodevelopmental disorder space, um, which is the type of disorder that my daughter has. If you look at, um, if you look at Angelman syndrome, so you know that’s, that’s a, a disease that, you know, where advocates have really come in and.

Really driven, um, the development of therapeutic pipelines and even have, you know, started, um, you know, started. Biotech companies to, you know, drive forward the, the, the development of therapies. And, you know, one of those therapies is, you know, currently in clinical trials, you know, for, for an A SO, uh, for an antisense oligonucleotide therapy.

And what I. You know, think about today is, you know, Angelman also has been, you know, the first case reports, I think were in the mid 1960s. And, um, so what I see that is happening now is this timeline is being shrunk. Like we have diseases where the first patient reports were, you know, five years ago and already there are therapies that are, you know, being developed.

You know, there, there are oftentimes in. Academic settings, you know, and now you know, this, the n of one or N of few is, uh, a possibility for is, is a possible, uh, um, kind of modality for or strategy for some of these diseases. But it really is a, a, a changing time.

Naji Gehchan: So as you, as you look forward for the next years, and you talked about how time is getting, uh, luckily shorter.

Mm-hmm. Um, and. You know, the involvement of patients, as you said, they, they, uh, I interviewed a prior, um, patient also with a rare disease who’s a scientist actually, and built his own biotech company exactly as you shared to, um, to figure out a solution, uh, to his disease. Um, and. He advanced through IND and, and so it’s, it’s really, uh, those great stories.

So look, looking forward with all the technologies also being developed, um, in, um, within the genetic world, what are you most excited about?

Charlene Son Rigby: There are so many things. I think that the, the, the, this is probably gonna be a, a, an answer that right now isn’t. In favor from a market standpoint. But I am really excited about platform approaches because the, the issue around economics right now is that we, we, we do, we still have pretty bespoke processes, you know, to get a, a, a therapy from, you know, in discovery all the way through the regulatory process.

And so. Um, I, I think that in order to really unlock the potential around the ultra rare, the very rare and the ultra rare. And the vanishingly rare diseases, we need to have platform approaches that, you know, we can, we can apply. And, and so there’s technology in terms of, you know, the, you know, those approaches.

But then there’s also a piece of it that is regulatory. And I do think that we’re st there’s a recognition and that needs to happen. And you know, also some, you know, efforts including like the BGTC. That is a joint effort, uh, a, a public-private partnership that includes the NIH and the FDA to really build some of those, you know, critical pieces around the regulatory.

Naji Gehchan: So I would love now to give you, um, a word and get your reaction.

Charlene Son Rigby: Okay.

Naji Gehchan: Whatever. First come to mind. So the first one is leadership.

Charlene Son Rigby: I am hesitating because we are, we are actually, I’ll, I’ll give you an answer, but I wanted to insert that. Global Genes has started a leadership, uh, uh, virtual series this year called the Oh, I love

Naji Gehchan: it.

Charlene Son Rigby: Change. Yeah. And we just had our second, our second installation yesterday and. So, and, and the one of the speakers showed a word cloud around, around, you know, feelings around leadership.

And so

the word that I’m going to use is not one that was on the word cloud. Um, uh, I, I’m, I’m gonna say standing tall, not one word, but two words.

Naji Gehchan: I wanna hear more about this and the cloud.

Charlene Son Rigby: So, standing tall, the reason that I, I thought about that is that one of the things that I think is important about leadership is to really know, know what you’re grounded in, and be able to stand tall, take a stance. On what you think is important, the that, that is, I think a core aspect of leadership.

Naji Gehchan: So the second word is rare diseases. Hope.

The third one is re foundation.

Charlene Son Rigby: Uh, impressive and amazing. Are I, I can’t pick between the two.

Naji Gehchan: The last one is spread love and organizations

Charlene Son Rigby: inspire, inspiring.

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of whi uh, wisdom Charlene for leaders around the world.

Charlene Son Rigby: I know that right now times are, there’s a lot of change happening and in the environment, but I think that really focusing on what matters and standing tall in that is really important in these times.

Naji Gehchan: This is such an important charge for all of us, uh, as we move forward in healthcare leaders, whether we’re in drug development, biotech, pharma, nonprofit, patient advocacy. Um, you’re, it’s, it’s really an important point you’re making and I thank you so much for being with me today. And. For the impactful work you’re doing for several patients, uh, around the world.

Um, and I’m as hopeful as you that we, uh, we will advance therapies to, uh, help the help patients like your daughter and, uh, cure those diseases at some point. Thanks again for being with me today, Geraldine.

Charlene Son Rigby: Thank you so much.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show. More episodes in partnership with Termeer Institue can be found on spreadloveio.com.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

I am Naji your host, joined today by Sekhar Naik a serial entrepreneur, business leader, aviation enthusiast, long-distance runner, and above all a community builder who believes in the innate power of authentic people-to-people connections. As the founder of MResult, Sekhar has built a foundation of ethical and empathetic commercial growth by serving as a trusted advisor to a select group of respected global brands. Sekhar is also a co-founder and investor in a variety of startups, providing them with both mentoring as well as financial support. In his commitment to pay it forward he is a major donor of YMCA Naik Family Branch in Mystic, Connecticut. Sekhar is committed to academic partnerships that explore leading edge innovation and investments in cutting edge technologies around Gen AI and Biotechnology companies.

Sekhar Naik: Naji. Thank you. So, so thank you so much for having me in your show. I’m, uh, really excited, uh, to talk more.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah, I am too. And I, I actually would love to start with your personal story from your early childhood in India to successfully being now a global, uh, leader. Uh, in, in your field, tell us a little bit more about your inspiring journey.

Sekhar Naik: Ji You know, it’s gonna be long story. We’ll have to kinda do like two podcast sessions, but, you know, I’ll try to be brief Now. One thing I think, you know, when it kinda comes to entrepreneurship and, uh, and, uh, you know, I guess, uh, success, at least for me, I think it’s all being able to kind of communicate storytelling is a very, very.

Powerful, uh, way of kinda communicating. And I think, uh, you know, uh, this is one thing that, uh, probably differentiates us as humans, you know, so, uh, humans forever, kind of even going back to 40, 50,000 years, they were storytellers. So, uh, so maybe what I’ll, uh, uh, my life story again is, is a story, is a, is my story.

Um, so, um, as, as you said, you know, again, I started off, uh, in India, grew up in India. Mostly in, uh, in, in South India. And, uh, you know, around, uh, 20 or 21 year when I was 20 or 21-year-old, I, I moved to, uh, Mumbai, which is obviously one of the biggest cities in India. So, uh, it was a major change for me, kind of coming in from a small town to kind going into this, uh, huge, massive city.

But then, you know, there are so many opportunities in Mumbai and, and you know, you, if you have the, if you actually have the, the, the drive and the hustle. The ability to embarrass yourself, you know, you can really try new things. And so, uh, uh, uh, surprisingly, you know, I got a gig in, uh, as a, as a, uh, the term would be like market breaker.

The, the right in India, the term would be jobber, but it’s really a market maker. And the, at the Bombay Stock Exchange, I was a 21-year-old kid, didn’t really know much, but it was a, it was a very exciting ti time for me, you know, uh, to, uh, to work in, uh, the stock markets, in, in finance. I was there for about, uh, two and a half years or so, and then I, uh, and I, uh, you know, I wanted to kinda move, uh, abroad and, uh, a, a good place to kinda go is, is Dubai, which is, which is, uh, a lot different than the Dubai of today.

We are talking about Dubai of 30 years back. It just started, just started actually like happening in Dubai at that point of time. And so I was in Dubai in, uh, again, in finance for around, uh, uh, for about three years or so. Um, I came to America to do my MBA. I came, uh, here at, uh, to study at University of Del.

I did my MBA in, uh, finance and in it and, uh, moved on into technology, you know, since then.

Naji Gehchan: So, shaker, thanks for sharing this, and I know you as you shared, uh, and we discussed last time. Um, I’d love to to to get more into your upbringing and those moves that you’ve done. You know, you talked about a small city.

In India to moving to, uh, to a larger one, but then Dubai than the us. You really lived across different geographies, uh, and eventually founded end result, uh, that, that became now really a super successful company. How did your early experiences and your really life experiences shape your values? Around ethical and empathetic growth in business?

Sekhar Naik: You know, I think in some ways probably, uh, I would, you know, in some ways I think my dad was a very, uh, principled person. So, uh, you know, I mean, I guess I was. A little bit of more of a wheeler dealer. And so my dad would probably kind of, you know, in some ways kind of look down because he never really kind of liked wheeling dealing.

And, but then, you know, so in India, you know, back then, uh, you know, some of those, uh, businesses, they’re very sort of like cutthroat, you know, when you kinda do business there. I think, uh, to me, I think in, in some ways it sort of like the ethical and, uh, empathic part. Probably gonna happen later in the life, especially once I kinda came to America, probably in some ways because, uh, you know, I think this is again, you know, uh, a great thing about, about America is, and of course you can actually have success in, uh, in any part of the world, in any country where people are, you can actually have success.

But I think, uh, the, what, at least this is from my perception, uh, Naji, you know, so one thing that, uh, differentiates in America, the success is really you, you can kind of do, you can actually kinda succeed within sort of like the ethical and the legal framework. You can really succeed. You don’t need to kind of, you know, so, uh, so in many places you would have to kinda have like really good connections.

There is like, uh, nepotism. There is actually, uh, sort of like corruption and things like that behind the scenes, you know, play to play. What I kind of found was in, in America, you know, certainly, like, I think, uh, a lot of it is around like innovation. A lot of it is around, uh, doing things right, you know, within the framework in some ways.

Um, you know, so, uh, to me, I think in some ways I probably kind of got into that in my, as I kind of got older and as I actually started appreciating what America has to offer, I probably, you know, uh, I probably kinda held on more and more to that and as, as I had like more, uh, success. I felt, you know, I have a, I have a, uh, higher responsibility, you know, to have empathy, you know, so, um, and now again, you know, I mean, I, I I do not judge people.

I’m not judgmental in some ways. Uh, you know, um, uh, humans by nature are selfish. Now, that said, you know, as you have, as you see more and more success, uh, you know, uh, you now have, you’re not like resource constrained. You don’t have as much insecurity. That might actually kind get you to be less selfish in some ways.

The more you have, potentially the less selfish you actually gonna become. You know, of course, you know, there are other stories of people having tremendous amount of wealth and kind of continue on, but that’s kind of a different, uh, I think, you know, obviously people sometimes do selfish things because they wanna be powerful versus they are, you know, they actually think that they don’t have, you know, two different, two different angles.

Right. Yeah. Now, the, the other part also kind of going back to the entrepreneurial, uh, journey, I think in some ways, uh, you know, uh, my dad’s story was a little bit of an inspiration to me. My dad was a, uh, my dad, my father was a very, uh, smart guy. He had, he had, uh, two engineering degrees, both in mechanical engineering and textile engineering.

And he, uh. He, you know, worked on, uh, worked on some major jobs, uh, you know, kind of, sort of like setting up these, uh, textile factories, running them, you know, employing thousands of, uh, people at the, at, uh, you know, and, and these were, some of them were like sort of like, uh, semi government type of, uh, you know, like, uh, you know, organizations.

But then, uh, what happened was, uh, in our textile industry in India, uh, and, and maybe even globally here in the US too, uh, you know, is, uh, went through like major periods of, uh, of recession. And so when that would actually happen, my dad, you know, would still be working, but would not gonna get paid for like years probably.

And so, um, uh, you know, I think that is kind of maybe one influence in my life, uh, when I felt, you know, what, uh, you know, hard work. That’s not necessarily like, you know, translate to success. You also need to really kind of pick and figure out how are you gonna apply that hard work. So, uh, to me that was more around, you know, I want to be responsible for my own destiny rather than actually, uh, someone else, uh, being responsible as in like, if you’re working for, uh, uh, for, for an organization now, you know, you have somebody else who actually, uh, in some ways, you know, your, your, you know, your destiny is like tied to that.

So perhaps that’s probably the reason why. I always wanted to start my own, uh, company, and perhaps that is a reason why I always wanted to start different, uh, businesses, perhaps, you know,

Naji Gehchan: ticker. I, I love you. You said pick where you put your hard work.

Sekhar Naik: Yes.

Naji Gehchan: And, and I, I really love, love this sentence. Can we go more about this?

Because you’re, you’re an entrepreneur by heart. You’ve built several companies. How did you pick where to put your hard work? Was it a kind of. You know, because I talk with a lot of leaders, some of it is planned. Some of it is just, you know, I, I don’t like to call it luck. ’cause I think like you kind of look for your luck in some, in some, I’d love, like how did you pick it?

Sekhar Naik: You know, I mean, it’s a, uh, it’s a great question because, you know, these days when I look at it, I don’t, I don’t even think about it, right? Because it’s actually, I’m kind of going through the process. I’m, I’m, I’m, you know, sort of like experiencing the success. But, you know, your question actually sort of like, uh.

Got me thinking, uh, uh, very briefly, and I remembered probably long time back before all of my success. Uh, you know, maybe I may have had some framework. I think vaguely, I kinda remember having some sort of like a framework on, on, you know, this very exact question, right. Very exact question. So, uh, you know, uh, you know, I guess like the thought process back then, you know, again, I don’t remember it really well because this is probably, you know, like a 25-year-old, uh, story probably.

You know, I probably, uh, I would’ve said like, you know, what do I kinda want in life? So, um, uh, you know, I think like for me back then, kind of, kind of growing up in a constrained environment, you know, I think financial success was kind of pretty big for me back then, you know, back then, uh, just for, for most of the people, right?

I mean, especially if, you know, if you, uh, if you didn’t kind of grow with a lot of money, I think financial success is kind really important, especially like, you know, if you, uh, had, uh. Sort of like, uh, you know, especially like, you know, if you, uh, family financial issues and things like that, right. So it’s, it’s kinda important.

So, uh, that was clearly in my metric. The other thing was that I wanted to sort of like, uh, you know, uh, be in control of my own destiny in some ways. Yeah. So that, that freedom to be able to kinda do stuff. When it comes to passion, you know, I don’t know if I, uh, I, I suppose, uh, you know, I don’t know because I also gonna believe in, uh, of course, you know, we all have like our natural passion, but I also gonna be believe in taking on any subject and sort of like building passion to that.

So, for example, you know, if, if, you know, I’ve never actually kind of gotten into teaching, but you know, if I were to basically, uh, get into teaching, I think I would be a passionate teacher. I mean, which again, one of the, you, you did mention earlier on in your podcast that I’m a pilot, you know, I, I am a commercially related pilot.

This is relatively a, a new, uh, uh, activity that I kinda do. I mean, I don’t, though I’m commercially related, I do not fly people commercially, as in, I don’t, uh, you know, I don’t kinda work as a pilot for an airline. Now that said, you know, again, I do it really well. Built passion to it, you know, as in like, you know, you know, I want kind of really fly well, I want to kind of learn.

So I’ve always kinda had that mindset. But kind going back to, uh, you know, the, the, the, the drivers, you know, for me, I think back then, originally it was more around, Hey, you know, whatever I’m gonna do, will it actually kinda make sure I, I have a good living, you know, kinda given, given, you know. Uh, uh, given basically some of the ins, uh, financial insecurities that I actually had early on in my, in my life, that is kinda very important.

It was also, uh, important that, uh, that I was able to chose what I want to do. And so maybe that probably might be the reason why I decided to kind of strike on, uh, the entrepreneurial path. Now, uh, come to think of it, you know, I have taken risks there, not just the risks. Not just a financial risk, you know, I mean, again, I’m a, I, I came in here as an immigrant into this country.

Um, you know, so I was working, uh, for a large, large, very large, uh, you know, pharmaceutical company as a, as a consultant, uh, slash contractor. Uh, they really liked me. They offered me, this is early on, they offered me a full-time job at, you know, at a, at a man, at a, you know, this is a, at a director level position, good pay, but the best of all.

Know, my, my green card would’ve been a, a very easy process. And, uh, you know, though it was very tempting. I, uh, made a call and I thanked them for that offer and I said, look, I want to really kind of, you know, set up my own company. I know I did not have a green card at the time, but you know, that is my initial dream.

So I did not, uh, take on, uh, you know, the path of, uh, working, uh, you know, as a director for this very large, uh, you know, pharmaceutical company. So, I mean, I did take. I suppose in some ways, you know, I mean, I, I didn’t look at it that way, but I think I actually, uh, made a choice, you know, made a choice based on, you know, what I thought I wanted and, uh, I’m glad it actually worked out.

Naji Gehchan: So, you know, taking risks, the drivers that, that got you there. I wanna now go into this company you built from. Uh, one person you

Sekhar Naik: Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: Starting with pharma? Yes. Uh, to now a thousand people, uh, company. So tell us a little bit what OL does and how you do it differently. And I would love to understand more because I know.

You are, you’re really passionate about this people to people connection. So I’d love to hear from you, how do you keep that now in a company of a thousand people with your people, do you have rituals, practices to make sure that the people to people connection remains?

Sekhar Naik: So, you know, at the core end result is a, is a, is a technology consulting company.

You know, so, uh, you know, I, I, so now that said. There, there are many technology consulting companies like, uh, you know, like Accenture, Deloitte, IBM, uh, you name it, cognizant. These are all very big companies. Uh, you know what, uh, uh, I guess in some ways what, uh, distinguishes end result is, you know, we are a large company, thousand plus people we work with.

Uh, we work on complex projects just like all these other large companies. Now that said, we are a very agile company and because of our size we are able to be agile. We are also very passionate. In some ways the company’s an extension of my personality, so you know, whatever we do, we do really, really well.

So that’s kind of probably why now EM result doesn’t have any salespeople at all. That’s probably the reason why EM result grew from a one person company to a thousand people company without any salespeople. It’s purely word of mouth. And, uh, in terms of. The actual work. We really do. We do a lot of work.

We started off, uh, you know, doing work around like data, you know, building, uh, data marts, you know, building reporting systems, building dashboards, and, uh, eventually kinda moved into, uh, analytics and then, uh, you know, as. The whole landscape progressed. I mean, if you remember Naji, you know, so, uh, you know, there was this whole move into cloud.

You know, we kind of became pretty good at, at the cloud deployment and cloud projects. And then, you know, you remember the time when it all became big data, you know, there was actually like really, really very big. And then digital became a big thing. So we, thankfully for us, we started off with a data company and you know, we were able to kind of morph, you know, sort of like morph into, into this larger and larger offerings because our landscape kind of moved, you know, more into that direction.

So around 2018 or so, uh, we had opportunities to kind of start working on AI ml. And so since then we have, we have built some very good expertise in the AI ml space. So, but at the core, uh, you know, end result really helps our clients, um, solve business problems or become more efficient by using technology, leveraging technology and, uh, leveraging and, and, and getting their operations better.

You know, that the code, that’s kinda what we do. And then I think, uh, going back to, uh, the other question on how do we, you know, continue to kind of really maintain the culture, uh, now, uh, sometimes I think, uh, uh, now this is again probably as an entrepreneur, so things are not necessarily linear. You know, I started m result in 2004 and you know, com company kind of, you know, early on I, I made a couple of, uh, I had a couple of stumbles.

Then at some point, you know, the company maybe, probably I’d say maybe about 20 10, 20 11, it became a stable company. So till about 2017, you know, it was a very stable company. But then, uh, you know, I, I kinda call around 20.

So I started seeing

started.

About how AI ML could profoundly change, you know, how we work, you know, what actually happens. And to me, in my mind, uh, suddenly I was, I was, you know, what will actually happen to all the people who have been working at M Result? They’ve been here for a long time. And then I started looking at the organization.

I realized, you know, in some ways we were like amplified, you know, we were a 14-year-old organization, but we are very atrophied. So, um, now that was, I think in some ways there was actually like a, the, you know, if I had kinda pat myself on the back, um, there is something I think I should pat myself because not only did I recognize that we had a amplified, not only did we recognize that we need to really like change, I had to convince people, convince organization.

I think we were probably close to, uh, I would say maybe about 400 hundred employees at the time, which is still, you know, significant and to kinda convince people basically that. We are a new company. We are a different company. So that’s kinda hard, right? Because people in some ways are like, you know, they’re kind of seeing it all.

They’re like, what do you mean it’s a new company? You know? Right. Cultural change is actually kinda harder in Midway. It’s very hard. So, uh, the best way that what I did was, you know, I mean, I, I, I, I had a genuine story and I was very convinced that this was a story and this is where we need to kinda go.

And I started actually really, you know, doing town halls, kind of meeting people, being, uh, open about it, asking for people for, uh, for their comments, their feedback, making investments. You know, we moved on to like a much larger office because you had to also do like all those, uh, optics as well, you know, because it’s very hard to kind of change in the middle of the process.

So we had this. We, I, you know, we made substantial investments into, into better, nicer office and, uh, better infrastructure and all of that stuff, you know, bringing in the right people. So that started paying off and people, you know, started seeing end result just themselves and say, wow, you know, this is a different company.

You know, then where we were like two years back. And to me, I think that that was a very, um, in some ways, uh, it, it is actually very, very. Very gratifying, you know, because, uh, this is some, I think it’s obviously it’s a cool thing, cool thing to kinda start a company from one person to a larger company. But it is very gratifying to recognize and, uh, say hey, you know, gee, wow, uh, I built a good company, but it is gonna amplify it and I gotta kinda change that.

And being able to change that, you know, that’s kind of hard actually, you know, in some ways. Right. Course. So that is of, uh, I think that is a cool thing. Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: Of course. Well, thanks for sharing this and yeah, congrats for you to be able, you know, not only to pivot, but to pivot, as you said, listening to people, convincing, people taking your time with you on this journey.

And basically here you are, seven years after.

Sekhar Naik: Yes.

Naji Gehchan: This pivot made you grow even more and you’re, you’re now absolutely

Sekhar Naik: helping. Absolutely. And now, you know, now I think in, uh, some ways, you know, again, we are, uh, we are in some ways like a, a fairly, uh, there, I don’t believe there are many companies our size with the over a thousand employees, you know, that’s gonna controlled, basically not controlled by a private equity or a group of partners or a publicly trade company, COE.

We are privately held. So, you know, pretty much I, we don’t have any external investors at all. It’s pretty much a homegrown company and, uh, and, you know, we work on these cutting edge problems with these, uh, very large companies. Uh, it is very gratifying. And so that’s kind of why today, you know, what kinda kept, keeps me going is, you know, I have this, uh, this, this tremendous, uh, sense of gratitude that I kinda made it.

And, you know, I feel now I have. I have, uh, you know, like greater responsibilities. You know, I think, uh, you know, as they say in Spiderman, you know, of course in, in, in any culture, right? You know, uh, not that I have great power, but you know, now you have, when with greater success gonna come, greater responsibility.

I’m gonna come, you know, change the, change the phrase, you know, with great power’s gonna come. Like, you know, I think it says great power comes great responsibilities. You know, I, I would say like, you know, with great, I think the same thing, you know, with great, uh, success. Comes greater responsibility. So I feel now, hey, you know, I, uh, I am, uh, you know, I’m very fortunate to kinda get to this point and, uh, it would be a shame now to kinda continue to kinda keep going and building and doing better.

And, uh, and, and, uh, you know, doing more.

Naji Gehchan: So Shehar, I know you’re also passionate, uh, by doing more on helping others, the community startups, you’ve invested, you mentor quite a bit of people, so I’m, I’m intrigued what traits. Do you look for, uh, in those people beyond, you know, the usual things of qualifications, like the company insights, et cetera, what, what do you look for really in the people and the leader you invest in?

Sekhar Naik: So, uh, yeah, I guess, you know, you mentioned two things, right? You mentioned basically building community and then kind of building companies and, you know, as, as you get, you know, kinda gotten older now. So as you kinda get older, you kinda become. Know, you, you, you, you start actually, uh, using your life experience and start kind of feeling people in some ways, right?

So if I am actually gonna be, uh, uh, doing, you know, helping out the community, you know, we still, you know, uh, I and my wife, we still support a number of nonprofits. So, uh, you know, what I kinda see there would be like, you know, do they have, uh, the, the passion, you know, are they, are they, are they actually in some ways.

People who are like giving, you know, are they actually willing to kinda serve other people? Do they have the passion? Are they like genuine people? Yeah. So that is what I would kinda look at, uh, if I’m gonna be supporting a nonprofit or, you know, building a community or, you know, something like that. Yeah.

On the other hand, um, you know, if I’m actually, uh, investing in a company or if I’m actually kinda co-founding, uh, you know, another company I would kinda look for, you know, like one of the key traits I look for is, uh, is this person open-minded? Open-minded because, you know, even the best business model doesn’t kind, make, doesn’t really like, make mean anything because business models kinda keep changing.

So the, the, so the, so the, the ideal entrepreneur, the most successful entrepreneur is the one who’s able to see things on the wall and being able to kind of pivot. Yeah. So, uh, and then I try to, uh, you know, look, look for that. You know, are they, are they, are they open? You know, how do they understand? How do they see the world?

Do they feel they know a lot because if they feel they know a lot, you know, that’s, to me, like in some ways that’s sort of like a red flag for me at least. Again, you know, I’m not kind of saying it may not kind of work for other people at least kind of, for me that is sort of like a red flag basically because uh, uh, you know, entrepreneur, being an entrepreneur is a very humbling thing.

The smartest entrepreneurs have failed many, many times, you know, so, uh, you gotta kinda have that humidity probably. Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: I love those, uh, shaker. So now I’m gonna move to a part where I’m gonna give you a word and I would love your first reaction to it.

Sekhar Naik: Okay. Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: The first one is leadership.

Sekhar Naik: I mean, uh, my reaction to that is it, to me it’s actually almost in some ways like a, a natural thing.

You know? I don’t know if I really kinda go back. I don’t even actually kind of, uh, read, uh, you know, of course I have an MBA degree. I’ve kind of, you know, studied things a lot. To me when it kinda comes to asset, you know, maybe my reaction would be when we talk about leadership, my instant reaction was people.

That is my instant reaction. If I had to kind of come back and say a reaction. When you said leadership, I said like people. That’s kinda what I had in my head.

Naji Gehchan: Love it. Second one is gen ai. I have to ask this, man, it’s so trendy

Sekhar Naik: when you say gen ai. You know, my uh, first reaction would be possibilities.

That’s the first reaction. Right. Second reaction would be changes.

Naji Gehchan: Oh, so, well, I have to double click on that because I know like you’ve, you’re big and this is kind of the core of what you do. Cutting edge tech, like gen AI and other things. Yes. What are, like, as you, as you look forward, what excites you most?

What are the opportunities you think? ’cause you, you used really two great words, right? Possibilities and changes.

Sekhar Naik: Yes.

Naji Gehchan: Uh, how, how do you see the world in 10 years and what are the possibilities that you see coming? For us

Sekhar Naik: at least, what the way I see the world is. You know, I know this is probably a contrarian view, you know, maybe not many people because I think there is a lot of, uh, you know, people are actually obviously like kind of concerned about all the changes kind of going on.

You know, I kinda see this, uh, slightly differently. I, you know, I’m a contrarian. In some ways. I see humanity getting better and better, or like they’re be becoming smarter and smarter because I think by nature, humans, many humans, not everybody, many humans are competitive. So now gen ai. You know, with, with, you know, more and more gen ai, you know, for humans to stay relevant, they had to be smarter.

They had to kind of, you know, learn more. They had to kinda leverage an AI to, you know, they had to leverage an AI to kinda get better themselves because again, gen AI exists at for only one purpose, which is actually for the purpose of humanity. So I kinda see the upside of it, you know, I mean, at least as an entrepreneur for fellow entrepreneurs or other people who are.

Who are act, who are like hungry. Yeah. Who are hungry. I can, you know, again, there are different people in the world and I see everybody as like a hungry person, but that may not be true now in the world. Right. But when I kinda see, uh, the world as made up of people like me, I think it’s a great thing. I think, uh, you know, uh, through gen ai you can, you can actually kind of become expert in many, many things.

You can become expert, you know, as long as you are, if you have the curiosity and if you have the passion, and if you actually have. You know, unending quest for knowledge. You know, uh, gen AI is, is great.

Naji Gehchan: Hunger, passion, curiosity. And then with gen ai, I think that it’s a great mix, you know, to, to think of and keep on building on.

It’s so, it’s so true, right? Like these days, the amplification that we can have on the knowledge and the ease of access.

Sekhar Naik: Precisely. Precisely. You know, as long as you’re hungry, you know, I mean, if you’re not hungry, then you know, you become a consumer.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah.

Sekhar Naik: Which is not a bad thing. I’m not being judgmental, you know, which is not a bad thing.

Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. So the

Sekhar Naik: third word, once you become a, once you become a consumer, then you know, you, you can still, you still have a life, but at the point of time, you know, you’re not like, you’re just kinda consuming stuff, just living. I don’t wanna say living the life, but it becomes more passive at the point of time.

You know, it’s technology, TikTok and all of those things. I mean, or like even, you know, I mean, to an extent, I guess. I suppose. So if you’re a consumer, let’s say for a an hour, for a two, for three, that’s kind of great. But then if you become a perpetual consumer your whole day, you know, you’re sleeping and you’re kind of consuming, right?

And not necessarily like producing, then, uh, you know, I don’t know, can you still be a human? You know?

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. I,

Sekhar Naik: big question. I’m not, I’m not being judgmental Naji. I just wanna make it very clear.

Naji Gehchan: No, no. And it’s, it’s your

Sekhar Naik: Yeah,

Naji Gehchan: of course. And it, it is your point on being active. And I think it’s kind of like one of those traits with your passions where you’re always active to do impact, to do good.

And this is kind of the difference between passive and uh, and active. Right? And it’s, it’s a great framework to think of. Uh, the third one is flying.

Sekhar Naik: Yes.

Naji Gehchan: What’s your reaction to that

Sekhar Naik: flying joy. You know, joy.

Naji Gehchan: Well, I know you fly, you also do boats and like, so it’s a lot of passions. You do marathons too.

Sekhar Naik: True, true, true, true. So, you know, marathons was a huge thing around the health, basically. You know, because I have had, uh, in the past, you know, like, uh, going back to like about, you know, maybe till about like 20 years back.

Or maybe till about 18 years back, I always kind struggled with the, with the, with being overweight, you know, overweight to some ways, even to being obese. So once I kind took up running, I think that started changing. And, uh, I was very, very fortunate that I did like multiple marathons. I’ve done the Boston, sorry, I’ve done the New York Marathon, I’ve done the Philadelphia Marathon.

I did a bunch of other half marathons. Uh, so that really kind of changed my life. It also kinda gave me a lot of energy, right? Because many people are aspirational, um, they want to do stuff, but you know, I’ve kind of seen this, this is kind of firsthand, you know, from me. Um, you know, I guess 20 years back or 25 years back, or I wanted to do stuff and I may not have been able to do it because I didn’t have energy.

So taking care of yourself, you know, uh, running or other activities, uh, basically it’s really kinda gives you energy and that’s kinda really important because you need to kinda have energy, uh, for everything else. For everything else. And so, uh, now that’s, it got into flying around two and a half, three years back.

Uh, you know, I, I would say probably like part of pandemic. I never was passionate about flying, but once I started like really flying, it’s this, this was a phenomenal activity. And I was also, also, you know, what, uh, America offers, you know, there are so many of these like airports, you know, small, big airports and the whole infrastructure, the whole ecosystem.

I really, truly, truly want to, uh, uh, you know, like take advantage of that. So flying is a great activity now, boarding, uh, I live in, uh, mystic, Connecticut, and, uh, beautiful shoreline. And, uh, I got into it about, uh, I guess around 13, 14 years back and, you know, kind, uh, use it as a challenge to kind get better and better and, uh, yeah, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a, it’s really truly a fun activity doing boring.

Naji Gehchan: I love it. Uh, the last one is spread love in organizations.

Sekhar Naik: You know, I think ultimately that’s kind of where we are, right? You know, there has to be, going back to the scarcity, going back to, uh, a change of mindset. I mean, I guess it’s with, with scarcity, you know, you are selfish at some point of time initially, but at some point of time, once you are, once you’re full, once you’re satisfied.

At the point of time, you know, I think the best way to kind of go about, at least to me is to, uh, really make the world a better place. So spread love is really that, you know, it embodies, you know, the concept of what can we kinda give back and what would that be to making the world a better place. I mean, Naji again, you’re a very successful, uh, you know, uh, researcher, pharmaceutical executive, you know, but you know, you’re taking time to kinda do this, you know, and this is basically in some ways your way of.

Making the world a better place.

Naji Gehchan: Oh, thank you. Thank you, Shehar. It means a lot. And I’d love, uh, a final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders like you and myself, uh, around the world.

Sekhar Naik: You know, I think again, ultimately, of course, you know, we exist in a commercial ecosystem. We need to, uh, build successful companies.

But, uh, I think ultimately for humans, you know, it’s all about, uh. Uh, having a, uh, long, uh, and happy life. So he, healthcare really would, uh, is, is really a, a key, key component to that. And, and in some ways, uh, I end all the healthcare leaders are, uh, are in some ways, you know, uh, in some ways in our own little ways, responsible for making all of us, you know, live better and live longer.

Naji Gehchan: Certainly this is why we do what we do and why we’re so passionate about it. And I, I really wanna thank you so much, Sekhar, for taking the time and being with me today. It was great chat. Thank you

Sekhar Naik: Naji. Thank you so much.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

I am Naji your host, joined today by Vanessa Almendro Navarro, a life sciences executive who builds at the intersection of innovation, AI-enabled R&D, and commercialization. As Vice President and Head of Science & Technology Innovation at Danaher, she leads enterprise innovation and operating-model modernization across a global portfolio. She designed and scaled the Danaher Beacon distributed R&D program with leading academic partners, launched the Danaher Nexus intrapreneurship pipeline, established the Danaher Antibody Capability Center, and created the Danaher Summits to connect operating companies with top domain expertise. Previously, Vanessa co-founded and led the Brain Tumor Investment Fund; served as Head of Strategy & External Innovation at Eisai and Head of Strategy & Operations at Repertoire Immune Medicines; and held scientific and commercial roles at Vertex. Earlier in her career, she was a research fellow at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute/Harvard Medical School. She holds a PhD in Biochemistry & Molecular Biology (University of Barcelona) and an Executive MBA (MIT). She serves on the boards of the Brain Tumor Investment Fund and MIT Sandbox and is a member of the ARM CEO Advisory Council.

01:30
Vanessa Almendro Navarro: Thank you so much. I’m really honored to be here. I’d love to start first with your personal story. What drove you to healthcare where you’ve been having an inspiring career and really a profound impact on people? Sure. Let me share with you the story. And my story actually starts when I was nine years old, very, very young age. And I found my father one day.

01:57
crying in front of my grandparents’ picture. My grandparents died of cancer when my dad was very young, actually. He was 22 or 23 years old. And that image of my father crying to my grandparents’ pictures really um ignited something inside myself. And later in my still young age,

02:26
Vanessa Almendro Navarro: When I started understanding what cancer was, I kind of somehow decided I wanted to do something with my life where I could help others so that they should not be crying in front of their parents’ pictures. So um fast forward, um again, I’m from Spain, from Barcelona. I was the first person in my family going to college. And um during my uh young teenager age,

02:53
The drive was still there. wanted to do to impact. wanted to deliver, you know, something with my professional career that would be helping others. And as I was, you know, going through college, I became a biologist and then I did my PhD as well in molecular biology and cancer. Unfortunately, in my family, there were appearing many more cases of cancer. So, you know, personally,

03:21
It’s been something that has been very close to my heart and my goal as a professional scientist and um now working on the business side of things. As I was evolving my career and I was working in research as well, was um at some point became the head for translational research in uh one of the largest hospitals in Barcelona.

03:49
And that was another point in my life where I felt I had to do something better, more. I had to be faster. Just being in academia, when you are working in a hospital and you are seeing the patients every single day, starts building on you this sense of urgencies. We need to deliver impact. Patients cannot wait. So um I decided to come to the U.S. I went to Dana Farber.

04:18
And I was still, of course, my lapiness pain. I was still in academia, but at Dana-Farber, where I ended up spending six years, every single day where I was going to have lunch in the cafeteria with all my colleagues, I had to pass in front of the pediatric oncology department. That’s in the third floor at Dana-Farber. Again, those first 10 years of my life as a faculty working in academia, I was exposed to patients.

04:46
waiting for solutions. And that was something honestly that at a given point in my life, I could not handle anymore. And I decided to go to industry to continue to learn how do you really go from a good idea to develop a product that can go to the patient’s side and actually deliver that impact I was looking for. um I went to industry. left my…

05:12
career as an investigator, as a faculty, and I had to start over with no industry experience. It was an incredible opportunity. I got to join Vertex Pharmaceuticals, where I was doing research in new target discovery for the oncology portfolio, then transitioning to become a group leader to run a drug development program. But again, um as a scientist, was now working finally in drug development, but I was in the earlier stage of drug development.

05:42
new target discovery and, and, know, lead identification. There was still so much that I didn’t understood about clinical trials. How do you set up a clinical trial to get to the right end point so that you can have the right marketing materials to properly, you know, um, you know, be able to, to distribute those treatments to the right patient populations. How do we think about commercial viability of a drug or a treatment or, know,

06:11
an indication that was something I had honestly, very limited exposure and idea. And again, that, that was this lack of understanding was something that was like, it ignited me another, um, how to put it ignited this, um, desire to keep learning more. were still steps about going from an idea to a product I did not understood.

06:40
So I decided then to transition from research to the commercial department. That was the time as well where I decided to do an MBA at MIT and build that gap into this business acumen and that understanding from the financial perspective that I was lacking at that time. And then from there, honestly, I’ve been then transitioning in my career in roles that have been

07:04
always sitting at the intersection between innovation and commercialization, always trying to find opportunities to go from a good idea to a good product. And at the end, again, just to summarize, it’s always about trying to deliver on patient impact. And it’s not enough to just have a good idea. You need to be able to see it through and develop actually a solution that will impact human health. And that’s really it.

07:32
the, the, inspires me to continue to, to be doing what I do every single day. Well, thank you so much Vanessa for this inspiring story and moving. think several of us have moved to keep on growing our impact and you’re certainly are delivering it. And your, how you’re ending is actually a great segue for my first question, because you’ve built program and we are one of the few who builds program to foster collaboration and

08:00
entrepreneurship and intrapreneurship somehow. So how do you ensure that innovation is really staying, uh not just gutting edge innovation as we hear it, but exactly what you said, deeply connected to patients and societal impact.

08:18
Vanessa Almendro Navarro: uh It’s important, or the way I think about it, it’s always important to understand what is the problem that you are trying to solve. If there is a problem that needs to be solved, there is always the opportunity to develop a solution for that problem. And I said there is always a solution because one of my principles, it’s always um

08:46
don’t tell me no, tell me how. There is always an opportunity to do something and approach the problems. We might fail from a technical perspective, know, science is complicated and very often fails, but there is always an opportunity for us to try and to move forward. So when it comes into innovation, again, it’s important that there is always a problem that needs to be solved and to solve that problem, we might need to really

09:15
go into the wild to develop a novel technology and try to discover something new. But importantly, sometimes there might be simple, elegant solutions that just deliver impact. And I think this is also critically important when we think about developing treatments and just delivering solutions for human health. um Because a challenge that we’ve seen for the past uh five

09:43
to 10 years is that there has been a boom of therapeutic modalities that can be used today to uh virtually treat every single molecule, every single condition, if you think about it. But we lack still the ability to be able to advance these potential solutions to cure as many diseases as we can today, right?

10:11
So it’s important that we don’t as a, you know, as an industry that we continue to invest in trying to match short existing technologies rather than jumping into the next new shiny thing. I do believe that with the right focus, we might be able to really uncover that some existing, maybe less attractive or new technologies can actually deliver a lot of impact. And that’s as well a mindset of

10:41
you know, being pragmatic and always focusing um on solving a problem that, you know, I applied consistently through the innovation programs that I’ve been running.

10:55
So at the intersection of AI, R &D, commercialization, AI is a big topic these days. I would love to get your views since you’re really close to those collaborations and making sure they get, as you’re saying, improved and not only the shiny things, but rather the other technologies to get a patient impact. Really thinking forward for the next five, 10 years, what excites you most about what’s ahead of us? What really excites me, m

11:25
is that uh we are, I think we are very lucky, um honestly, to be living in the time that we are living despite all the existing challenges from a microeconomic and geopolitical situation. We are living in the time where data, artificial intelligence, analytics,

11:49
technology, biotechnology and robotics are really converging into what is going to be an innovation revolution. And what really excites me is how that next future is going to look like. And it’s not going to be a future where we can just continue to do incremental innovation. We have the opportunity today to really rewrite and rethink and redesign how the next, you know,

12:17
hospitals in the future are going to look like at the intersection, as I mentioned before, of robotics, artificial intelligence, data, a different way to manage and monitor health and actually deliver uh treatments for diseases. It’s going to change the way that we think about experimentation. We are going to move towards data first, in silico first, and wet lab as a way for us to validate.

12:45
versus the way that we discover most of the things that we do today that is experimentally right. So I think that for me, what’s exciting is the fact that optionality is going to expand because of the fact of what I just mentioned, this ability to really interrogate biology and, you know, accelerate the adding the cycle so that we can test many more hypotheses faster. So that’s extremely exciting. The cautionary tale though, is that within all this hype, we need to be of course realistic.

13:15
into what are the problems and the solutions that will be truly solved and delivered with the opportunities that we have in front of us and what is hype and a little bit of an emerging maturing aspirational scenario that is going to take a little bit more time to be developed. Is AI automation going to help us to develop many more drugs?

13:42
faster indeed one day, still we need to streamline the way that we get clinical validation of those therapeutic modalities before we can even develop many more of these modalities, right? So I think that there’s gonna be as well this opportunity to ensure that we um tap into what can help us to deliver impact now.

14:10
versus what’s going to require still a much more maturity before we can really deliver impact on, let’s say on AI driven, fully drug development programs, just to speak on an example. Yeah. So I want to double click on that, I fully with you on this acceleration of drug discovery, how we apply AI, and really AI as a tool across all our value chain.

14:36
But that’s something I’d love your thoughts on, which is the clinical side, right? Like discovering all those targets, even being able to drug the undruggable targets now are happening. But then to your questions and what you said on biology, you know, like we are humbled every time we’ve put a molecule or, you know, a technology into humans and how this will work out. So how do you think about this step of first in a human to getting a drug approved?

15:05
through this new AI lens. And did I hear you correctly? Like we will have a lot of new modalities or new targets, but the tough piece will be this bottleneck of making sure that they are clinically relevant and getting to patients’ hands. Yes, exactly. So to be a little bit more concrete, let me pick on a specific example. Let’s think, for example, about how

15:32
we can use, I don’t know, like machine learning algorithms, excuse me, to, um and data analytics in general, just to understand how to optimize sequences, let’s say for gene editing technologies, right? So that’s one modality right now that is extremely important. And we are seeing um more and more what’s the promise that gene editing technologies can deliver. um

16:00
still when we think about gene editing, um the amount of tools, the enzymes, CRISPR-Cas9, base editors, you name it, prime editors, there are many modalities today of editors we can use on DNA, on RNA, that are potentially um able to provide cures to many diseases, but yet we have not

16:27
figure out what’s the opportunity or what are the, how to develop these racks in a way that is, um is going to be safe and for what indications. Some of these assets still, some of these racks are still like clinical validation. That’s the point I’m trying to make. So that’s an example with gene editing technologies. Again, products that we can, there are many AI tools that can be used to understand, know, safety, efficacy, potential.

16:57
you know, toxicity of target effects. So that’s, that’s an area where, we have been using this, type of tools. Another area that it’s important as well, where actually we are seeing an amazing um opportunity is in ligand discovery, right? And everything that alpha fold, bolts models and all these, you know, protein modeling tools have been helping us to understand into how to target proteins.

17:26
and how to design ligands in a much more efficient and faster way and really to expand our ability to understand the chemical space. So that has been an incredible opportunity for us at the front end of the drug discovery. Yet we still, for example, are missing the ability to build that lab in a loop, quick iteration model so that we can validate those virtual hits to continue to advance the drug development programs, right?

17:56
So I think that’s an important consideration at the front end. Then when it comes into your question about the patients, and then even if we are able to sort all these problems and get to the right molecules, something that is more and more important is understanding what is the patient population that is truly going to benefit from your treatment so that we decrease.

18:22
the failure rates that we’ve seen in the past with very promising therapeutic modalities that just failed clinical trials because they were not hitting the right patient population. we know that this has happened in the past in many situations. We know that our understanding of eligible patient populations, our ability to discover um

18:51
and understanding patient pathophysiology and drivers of uh response to these treatments is going to help us to then accelerate, tailor an increased probability of success of these potentially, you know, curative treatments. So when I think about AI to your point before, AI is really an enabler on the full uh cycle of drug discovery from, you know, finding your target, discover your molecule.

19:19
thinking about clinical trial design for patient, you know, again, eligibility, um even at the end, if you will, into commercialization of that particular treatment. But the clinical component, I think it’s gonna be crucial. We are evolving towards, and we are seeing this more and more and more, uh in the possibility for us today to change the way that we think about population health.

19:46
and then trying to figure out how you narrow into treating one patient towards let’s understand first what’s um the right treatment for individual patients and let’s use that patient population, um individualized data to understand larger um patient diseases. So I think that we are changing that paradigm and that’s an opportunity where AI hopefully is gonna help us to do that.

20:15
Certainly, you know, like the field as we’ve been discussing, right, like the field of AI as an enabler. I love this word, how you use that, right? And in different steps of drug development from early to late will be impacting us for better health is really exciting. I want to go, you know, go back to your story, right? Like from early childhood to uh bench science.

20:44
at DNA Farber and now Global Innovation. Is there kind of a guiding principle that really shaped the way you lead and inspire others through your story? um Yes, I would say that um something I have learned from my career that now I try to inspire to my team and my colleagues and my peers, it’s never give up.

21:15
I mean, you know, I was, um as I mentioned before, I went from Spain, from Barcelona, the first person in my family actually going to college, studying biology in a country where at that time there were very limited career opportunities, but I was determined. I wanted to become a biologist. I wanted to go out there. I wanted to do research in oncology. um And then when the opportunity came to come to the U.S.,

21:43
And by the way, I barely speak any English at the time. So I basically came to the U S and had to learn a language. I was not speaking. Um, I never gave up. It’s like, that’s not going to stop me. I’m going to go to the not far. Where this is a great opportunity. Then going to industry, starting over, you know, never give up. will figure it out. That’s, that’s the theme I consistently use with my, with my team. Um, then transitioning careers, starting over again, moving into commercial where I had really limited.

22:13
understanding on marketing and commercial. I did not give up. I continued to push because again, there is always, I like to think about our careers as every moment, the lows and the highs are just a point in time, know, uh a bottom, uh a challenging moment in your professional career. Things sometimes don’t go well.

22:39
It’s just that a moment at some point it’s going to get well. So just keep going. Don’t give up. Keep pushing forward. So why I’m sharing this with you, I’m sharing this with you because as you know, being now working more on business strategy, mostly right, I’m on the other side. I’m actually a scientist by training. I spend many, many years of my career on the bench and I know how frustrating it is when you know that, you know, five to 10 % and that’s for the lucky ones of experiments ever worked.

23:09
um As a bench scientist, you know that you are going to need to try over and over and over again until something works. So that’s point number one. Then you start adding, you know, let me put it this way, probability of success of every single tiny little step from advancing an idea to actually a product. And most of the time you are going to fail. Our jobs, our careers are extremely challenging. We need to build that resilience. It’s always don’t give up, keep going.

23:38
And we will figure it out. And I, that’s the theme I consistently use with, again, with my team, with my colleagues is my personal philosophy. I will figure it out. This is so powerful. We will figure it out. And it’s certainly a story of resilience throughout your life and the journey. And, know, sometimes I think of it the same, very close to what you said, you know, every time we know how to do a job, just…

24:06
are curious enough to go and do something we’ve never done before, but we’ll figure it out. We’ll learn and we grow and we’ll figure it out. I love that. And this is a testament for your great leadership. And talking about this, I’m now going to go to giving you a word and I would love your first reaction to it. And the first one is leadership.

24:27
humble.

24:30
I want to learn more about this because again, you have a phenomenal journey through academia, biotech, pharma, global enterprise, small, large. Has your leadership definition or the different cultures and scales and organization evolved over time? Significantly, yes. um

24:56
When I said humble to leadership is precisely because um as a leader, when I started my career, very, you know, at a very early age, I was like group leader already in the hospital clinic in Barcelona. I was very immature. I was very green. And I thought that leadership was something that candidly it was not. So as I was, you know,

25:26
experiencing my leadership through the different teams. I was running at the hospital with scientists, medical students, then transitioning coming to the US, going to work at Dana Farmer, then transitioning to industry to biotech. I’ve seen, I’ve had to experience different type of teams that I was managing at the time. And that made me to realize that your leadership style cannot be just one. You need to adapt to…

25:56
to the different cultures, the different styles, the different industry settings. And um it took me time to realize that um it’s important that we all adapt as leaders. We are not always right. And it’s really, when I say humble, we need to admit when we are wrong. And it’s a good thing to ask for forgiveness when you make a mistake with your team members.

26:23
And this is something that I’ve learned over the years. And I become really humble to say that it doesn’t really matter where you sit in an organization. No one succeeds because of our individual, let’s say skills. Everything we do is with teams. It doesn’t matter where you sit. doesn’t matter your title, your position. You are another team member and you need to reflect that within your leadership.

26:50
And it’s important to recognize when you have been wrong. And I’ve been wrong many times and I’ve done many mistakes as a manager, but uh I’ve learned how to embrace and admit those mistakes so I can become a better leader in the future. Right. So that’s a little bit, you know, my, my journey, my story. And um unfortunately, I would love to see many more leaders becoming a little bit more humble in, in understanding that.

27:20
We, everyone is always trying to do their best and we need to be able to support. We need to be able to enhance. Of course, we are gonna always be trying to aspire for more and challenge our teams to deliver more, better, faster, because patients are waiting. that sense of urgency is something I’m never going to lose because of the personal story I mentioned before. But it’s really important that leaders recognize when we are wrong.

27:48
and admit that, and if we need to ask for forgiveness, I make a mistake, I’m sorry, we should be doing that. And that’s the way I like to move forward with any team that I manage.

28:01
The second word is impact.

28:05
Patience. The third one is sandbox. Innovation. I’m very traditional, I can see that. And the last one is spread love and organizations.

28:24
Yes, I don’t know why, but philanthropic came to my head. It spread love and organizations, I guess, related to the other big passion of mine that is supporting the National Rintomor Society. Do you want to tell us more about it? Sure, happy to do that. So when I was actually doing my MBA at MIT and I was working at Vertex Pharmaceuticals,

28:49
A very good colleague of mine was the CSO of the National Brain Tumor Society. And he reached out to me and said, listen, Vanessa, the National Brain Tumor Society is thinking about launching potentially a philanthropic investment fund because we want to make sure that we continue to help in advancing ideas from the academic setting to commercialization so that we can deliver more solutions for patients with brain cancer.

29:18
So I got engaged into working with, David Arons is the CEO of the National Brain Tumor Society, Kirk Tanner, who was at CSO at that time and the full organization. And we built this proposal for the board about creating a philanthropic fund to invest in brain cancer enterprises to support seed investments and serious brain cancer companies.

29:47
and make sure that with this investment vehicle, we could connect the work that the National Green Tumor Society is doing today as an advocacy association, supporting with grants, academic institutions, and then build an investment opportunity to take that early research from those academic institutions and be able to support them to create new companies and advance towards commercialization.

30:14
So that was an incredible um experience when I started working with the National Brain Tumor Society in building this, you know, the Brain Tumor Investment Fund. Because brain cancer, as many other cancers, I mean, this is just one of them. There is a huge unmet medical need. And unfortunately, the investment community

30:40
has been traditionally very reluctant to invest too much capital in this disease just because we know it’s challenging, it’s very complicated. But when there is a challenge, we saw an opportunity and the opportunity is that today we understand the molecular subtypes of oh brain cancer. There are technologies today that are allowing us to approach brain cancer very differently. We are seeing in

31:09
incredible progress of CAR-Ts, know, cell therapies providing long lasting uh responses in patients that had no other option. They were destined to really not have any opportunity. And on top of that as well, we are seeing an incredible progress in liquid biopsies and being able today to infer brain biology through, you know, a blood test, which is opening the possibility as well for early diagnosis.

31:39
diagnosis in the future. So with the Brain Tumor Society, what we are trying to do is to continue to inspire the ecosystem. We are a very small organization. We do very, you know, small investments, but it’s all about enhancing the ecosystem, building that momentum and making sure that the rest of the investor community can see what we are doing and they can start also understanding that this is, there is an opportunity today to invest in these enterprises.

32:09
cancer today, brain cancer today, it’s much more attainable than it was 10 years ago with the new technology. So we should continue to invest and help here. Well, thank you for doing that. It’s certainly an area of incredible high on met need and many of us have seen friends or touched by this and it’s great to see those breakthrough advancements and hopefully we will be able to cure one day those cancers. That’s why.

32:38
We do what we do. Any final word of wisdom, Vanessa, for healthcare leaders around the world?

32:48
Um, well, I would say that.

32:55
As healthcare leaders working on innovation, we are very fortunate to be living in the time that we are living today. And I think it’s up to us to really embrace this opportunity and ensure that we rethink and redesign the way that we want to develop treatments and healthcare solutions in the future, considering the tools that we have today.

33:25
It’s up to us. The opportunities are there. The technologies are there. We just need to be able to ensure that we as leaders are focused, that we try to decrease, you know, bureaucracy and administrative barriers. Patients are not waiting. They need solutions, that we are decisive, that we invest with conviction when we know that there is a solution that can

33:53
you know, deliver an impact for a patient. And importantly as well that as society is changing, that we as leaders as well change, the noble generations that are gonna become the leaders of the future, they are different. Society is changing. We as leaders need to change. This humble leadership really understanding that we are just one more piece of the game. We are just one more team player.

34:19
It’s a philosophy on leadership that I think organizations are gonna need more and more and more in the future. Especially um the last thing I want to mention as well as we recognize that we cannot solve for these big problems alone. Everything has to be through collaboration. And again, we are just one more piece in the puzzle. that would be my, you know, um maybe, you know. m

34:44
final note of inspiration for other leaders to think about, you know, what’s all the good and impact that we could deliver if we modernize our way of, you know, um managing teams and running organizations. So that’s it from me. Well, thank you so much, Vanessa. It’s inspiring and really great to us. I always talk about love and discipline. You kind of touch on both between focus and carrying leadership. And I love your framing. Embrace the opportunity of living today.

35:14
because patients cannot wait and really uh great chatting with you and thanks for being with me today. Thank you so much, Nagy. This was fantastic and thank you so much for inviting me. Thanks for listening to the show. For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare one story at a time.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

I am Naji your host, for a special episode today touching health through food. I am excited to be joined by Rose Saia Executive Director of Centre Street Food Pantry. Rose joined Centre Street in 2019 as a part-time Pantry Manager. When the pandemic began, she pivoted the operation to a new program and distribution model to address the exponential increase in food insecurity. She became Executive Director in 2021. Prior to joining Centre Street, she was Pantry Director for Open Table, a Metrowest regional grocery and meals agency. Her experience in nonprofit organizations includes being a member of the board of directors and marketing chair for The Capital Network and WEST (Women Entrepreneurs in Science and Technology) and as a CEO coach for women leading high growth businesses at The Commonwealth Institute. Her professional career is anchored in high technology where she was a leader of technical, product marketing and business development teams for startups and global providers. She was the CEO and co-founder of a network security consulting and product company that was acquired by Juniper Networks. Rose is also a published writer and professional true-life storyteller who has appeared on local stages and on the national television series, “Stories from the Stage.”

01:50
Rose, you’re a storyteller. I love how you tell stories and how much I learn from you and the way you tell these stories. So would you tell us your story and how you came to now lead a food relief agency?

Rose Saïa: Of course. think one of the things that I’ll mention to the audience is that my storytelling skills really were sharpened as a result of becoming a

02:18
competitor in Moth, the Moth competitions. People may know the Moth as the Moth Radio Hour, which is a nationally broadcast show that features uh impromptu stories told by people just like you and I. uh And the way they get those stories is they go from different stages in the country and just you put your name in a bag and you get called and then you stand up in front of people you don’t know and tell these uh really intimate

02:48
sometimes, you know, points of your life. And I was invited by somebody to do a local story on a local stage. And I had never really listened to the moth. And somebody said, well, you know, maybe you should think about that. And so the moth, you know, when you asked me to tell my story, really looks for a very compact kind of story. And, you know, it’s all driven around.

03:15
you and what was transformative for you. So I think in answering your question, one thing I can say that I was able to dive into through the moth was the fact that I grew up in Boston. I grew up in a very gritty neighborhood in Boston, South Boston, known as Southie, um at a time when um it was working class. due to the circumstances in my specific family, I was food insecure from the time I was about five.

03:45
until probably the age of 20. And of course, didn’t really recognize it as that. That’s sort of an insight that came later. But I was in a family where my mom suffered from mental illness. had dissociative disorder, anxiety and depression, and my dad was affiliated with the mafia. So there was a lot of chaos. I was homeless a couple of times.

04:14
I was stalked by the FBI and the mafia as a little kid. But the overarching theme of my childhood was my mother trying to be sure we had food, housing, heat, lights, and how that was a secret, which is an interesting backdrop to the world today. There was a lot of shame. My mother had a lot of pride.

04:43
And there’s a specific story actually on the Moth Radio Hour uh that I told about in fourth grade how a teacher saw that and what that teacher did about it. um that’s a very quick synopsis, I think, but probably one that sets us up for some more questions. Well, thank you. Thank you, Rose, again for sharing this part of your story and delving in it actually.

05:13
As you’re saying, like the second part of the question is for me, how does, how did this kind of shaped your purpose and the way you lead today? I know how passionate you are in a center street food pantry where I had really the privilege to be working closely with you as a board member. How does the story shaped your leadership and how you’re serving today in the pantry?

05:42
I mean, absolutely, it’s a foundation for the work that I do at a very practical level. You know, I have a way, a relatable way to interact with those that we serve, either as understanding the perspective of the young, child, and that might be in that family, but even more important, the perspective of those who are relying on Center Street as part of their safety net for food.

06:11
And that doesn’t come up. Often, you know many people who’ve many of the clients who come to Center Street don’t really know my background, but I think when you. Have had that experience. You have a shorthand that you can conduct with that person. You know a comment, a bit of encouragement, a way to listen that that creates a bond of trust. Quite honestly, so there’s that dimension of it and leadership and. m

06:40
that allows me to also hear very carefully what are these people experiencing? It’s not just my recollection of it, but it allows me to soak in and really understand what’s happening with these people today and what do we as an organization need to consider and do to respond to them. And I think that’s the ultimate goal when you’re in a service.

07:06
organization that you really want to understand those you’re serving and be responsive to them. So I think, you know, an example I can give you of that and how it played out in Center Street is that when the pandemic hit, we had a very small market and people could choose what they wanted. And then after the pandemic within a week, nobody could go inside. And so we pivoted, we were outdoors, we were getting our groceries, but very quickly after that, um

07:34
I created what I called a programmatic model to give out food, which was really looking at the food that people needed for their families so they could go home and make meals. Not here’s 10 things in a bag. Good luck with that. And I know from when I was a kid, there wasn’t a Center Street. My mom went to a state agency and brought home a bag of five very different things and said, how is this food?

08:01
How do I, how do I’m going to feed you with this? You know, a can of shortening, a jar of peanut butter, bag of flour. So the leadership I think I’ve brought is under, is constantly trying to take a pulse on what is going to be the most helpful to these clients. Not just, you know, not just because of my interactions with them and hearing them and hearing about their family sizes, but also taking in the feedback of organizations who also support them like local hospitals, Newton-Wesley hospitals, other agencies.

08:31
So the result of that is that Center Street has various programs that all coalesce, groceries, fresh produce, kids club, personal care items, that give families core elements of what they need that are healthy and nutritious so they can go home, make meals, and have enough food for their families. I think that was another dimension I wanted to address. It is not equitable or dignified.

09:01
to give somebody with seven people in their family a box of pasta, and you give somebody who’s a senior a box of pasta. So, know, allocation wise. So really trying to instill that kind of approach, again, starting with my own experience of what it was like, but also then really being able to build upon that, to listen and craft a programmatic approach that was dignified.

09:29
based upon what the clients need, based upon what we’re hearing in the community that these people need today. Yeah. Yeah. You brought up two words that are obviously very close to your heart and the heart of what is done at the pantry, equity, dignity. And really, I remember, you know, joining and trying to help when all those programs and COVID happened. I…

09:56
you know, before going and I want to go into the food insecurity more specifically, uh but what key learnings you really transformed a pantry and we can go into also the numbers of pre-COVID, post-COVID. But when you think about this time and shifting operations, looking back, is there specific moments of leadership or specific lessons on leadership during crisis and

10:26
And really how you took the community into resilience that you can think of and that we can teach us now. You know, I think, um, I’ll answer that and then explain. I think you need a moment of, we can do this. I can do this when everything says you cannot. Everything says it’s not the same. Um, I certainly know coming out of high technology.

10:56
that high technology has always been a field of constant innovation, constant take a problem and make it, find a way to have a better solution, right? Even when it doesn’t seem like that’s going to be possible. And I was part of a team actually that started delivery of full motion video to people before YouTube, right? I mean, just things that seemed you can’t do that. there’s, there’s that, I came out of that, that you can always do that. So I think when the pandemic hit and

11:26
You know, I remember it vividly. It was a Tuesday when the governor had the shutdown and we were in a service. And, you know, I spoke to our board chair at that point and she said, well, what are we going to do? And I said, we’re going to go outside and we’re going to do this. We can do this. And I think it’s that belief in what doesn’t seem possible is possible. If you think about it, it’s problem solving and it’s faith in those around you. I did not do that alone.

11:57
Right? We lost our whole volunteer team though. So there weren’t a lot of us. So it was really thinking about, who can stand with us at this time? What are the resources we have and how do we best use them? And, you know, there were people from the board and there were people, you know, we thought about how people could come in and pack bags and who were there. And I think that is a nice segue to think about, you know, what is it that makes somebody in my position, you know, leading a food relief agency successful?

12:25
It is the belief in those you do not know that they’re going to bring their best selves and align with you to create something really quite amazing. You know, we are a volunteer run organization. We rely on 60 to 75 people every Tuesday, a stable of 150 people a month. There’s 300 names in our database. You know, one of the great challenges and rewards of my position.

12:55
is leaning heavily on the talents and the commitment of those people. And I think to do this, you have to have a picture of how do you get them all to orchestrate? Somebody who came to Center Street once said it looked like a symphony, right? Everybody knew their part. Everybody was able to interact, right? And I think it’s that approach. I think that’s what makes food relief different than any other social services organization. We are

13:24
I am very dependent and grateful for the people who come in and aware that they are skilled people in their own right. But that day, what they really want to do is pack produce or unload produce or be part of something that is meaningful. I didn’t give you any stats on the food insecurity, but certainly being able to share how are we able to make that happen. How do we make that happen today?

13:54
That’s how we do it. Yeah. know, like, obviously I’ve seen, as you’re saying, the magic of the symphony, right? And people getting together to serve and make an impact. But let’s go on the numbers, as you’re saying, because, you know, even for me, when I discovered Ida Newton, as many would know, when I discovered the pantry, I never even

14:23
imagine that there is food insecurity in my community and the neighborhood we live in. Even though I discussed with my daughter, because as you know, like I brought them a couple of times, they were, they never even would have imagined this. But yet, still in each community, unfortunately, people face this. So I’m bringing it through this lens, because I know, and we discussed it quite a bit, like food insecurity feels like a social issue. It’s not

14:53
in our neighborhoods. But the numbers are here and it exists. And unfortunately, I’ll let you go through those numbers are quite striking and increasing as you keep reminding us, unfortunately, every week. So tell us about this, like from a community lens, how many the explosion number we’ve been seeing over the past few years, but also taking it at a more

15:22
state level, national level, and global perspective that you always keep on reminding us that it’s what we see at the pantry is a reflection of the global state of the world. That is a really great way to segue into this because I shared with you that I always take a look at the Boston Globe every day because and I read the New York Times and those are very difficult things to do because I learned that

15:50
If I read about it at a national level, I will see it at the pantry in 10 to 14 days. And I think that was played out quite strikingly when the war began between Russia and Ukraine. within two weeks, there was a woman standing on the corner and this truly a little boy was hiding behind her coat. And she was new and she had walked there. She had taken the T and when we

16:20
talked to her about the groceries she wanted. She kept insisting, only fresh food, only fresh food. She just stood tall, really clear in her speaking. And then I brought her what we have is our Kids Club Bag Program, which is a bag that has extra breakfast and lunch foods for kids that they like. She took one look inside, and of course the little boy was now coming out from behind the coat and looking in the bag and he was smiling and she gave it back. She said, only fresh food.

16:50
So I went back and I got, we had strawberries, we had bananas, so I got more of that. And that’s when she finally smiled and said, we have been hiding in a subway in Ukraine for almost two weeks and all we had to eat was things out of cans. This is what I want today. So I see that over and over again, whether it be immigrants, whether it be…

17:16
a housing crisis or prices going up, you know, that’s just the reality of what’s happening. I think at a local level, sociologically, we all know that we always think the problem is in another neighborhood. That’s just a common thing. And I regularly hear from people in Newton, I don’t understand. How can there be food insecurity in Newton? And, you know, it is a community that is…

17:43
You know, of course it has a number of people who are not food insecure, but it speaks to the constant state of food insecurity in our country. Senior citizens are chronically food insecure because they are on fixed incomes and housing prices have increased and the contributions for those housing prices, whether it be, um you know, through rent control or heat assistance have been squeezed. uh We don’t have rent control.

18:11
Of course, prices have gone up, and if people can’t own their own homes, that, and taxes go up. Senior citizens, that was the majority of who used to visit Center Street before the pandemic were senior citizens. Now let’s move the pendulum. Now it’s families with children. 65 % of those who visit Center Street are families with children because uh wages have not kept up, fuel prices have increased, housing prices have increased.

18:41
And this isn’t about what it used to be. It’s not just, well, I can’t make my check last for three or four days until my next check comes in. We are now a regular part of the safety net that families use to augment the food they need so their children are not hungry. That’s even with school meals, because there’s just not enough money for food. And a stark statistic I read from the USDA in 2023,

19:11
is that of the people who are getting snapped in this country, 42 million nationally, 1 million in the state of Massachusetts, something like 80 % of them include families with children, and those include senior families with children. So a chronic issue that is now blown up is that this is not news. News, news. We are a country, we are a local community.

19:40
that has people who are chronically struggling to put enough food on the table. And while the numbers are different in Newton, the reported numbers for food insecurity take into account those on fixed incomes, those on disability incomes, those who are reporting to be at the federal poverty level, which let’s put that in perspective, is somewhere between 24 and say $40,000 a year of income.

20:06
I’m gonna pause and let that soak in for those who live in communities like Newton, like how do you get by? So the food insecurity rate in Newton is probably rated between five and 6 % of the population, which by the way is 89,000 people. That’s still a lot of people. Then you go to another community that we serve like Waltham where it’s 10 % out of 65,000. So you can start to see the thousands aggregating here, right? But that’s not taking into account the people who…

20:35
don’t end up in that statistic. Those are people who are earning just above that, 50, $60,000 or two people earning 75 or $80,000, right? Which is not a lot of money anymore for a family of four. It is not taking into account those who are episodically hit by a healthcare issue, their own injury or health issue that has them not work. And I will say that the issues that most affect

21:05
food insecurity outside of the reported statistics are health related emergencies. Absolutely. I cannot tell you how many people have said to me, I’m here today because my mother has cancer. I can’t work as much. My sister’s trying to help. We’ve got five kids between us. We’re trying to help my mom with cancer. Health crisis is probably a key determinant of food insecurity.

21:35
whether for the people experiencing the health crisis or those trying to support them. And that’s where there’s a great intersection between health outcomes, getting health care to people and hunger. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, you know, as we talked about it, I was, you know, in the beginning saying how through food it’s certainly, and this is what we try to do at our pantry, right? Like trying to bring

22:02
healthy options, as you said, and healthy meals for people. uh But this is another point where it touches food insecurity. The health crisis touching it, and at the end of the day, obviously the food touches your health, and it’s kind of a full circle, unfortunately. And really, you said 42 million food insecure in the US by statistics, without counting a little bit more. That’s just striking.

22:32
number. We’re in the 11 % of the population, basically. One in six. It’s hard for people to wrap their heads around that. Again, in Massachusetts, due to truly what Massachusetts has done, which is to provide two meals a day for children and a number of other things that have tried to keep our citizens healthy and well, it is not enough to personalize those numbers here.

22:59
in eastern massachusetts you know amidst affluent communities and people who are doing extremely well we are surrounded by people who are not doing extremely well and they are those people driving lifts and it done you know working retail jobs at starbucks oh and they’re they’re they’re dentalists hygienist assistants they’re in the hospitals i had somebody horrified and argue with me once when i said look i see people getting out of their cars in scrubs

23:28
to pick up food and that person said, that is impossible. Nobody in the medical community could possibly be coming to a food pantry. said, well, I don’t think they were dressed up for Halloween. I think there’s that and I think the piece people don’t understand is food equals health, not just because we want to provide medically tailored food for those in need. Of course at the pantry, we provide low salt, 30 foods, 35 % of what we distribute is fresh.

23:57
produce. We’re providing a variety of whole grain fresh bread. There are medically tailored kinds of things and initiatives related to food equaling better health. But that’s skipping over the basics, which is that the fact that people are struggling to have enough food on the table is a health crisis. It’s not about just being diabetic or high blood pressure or the things that, you know,

24:26
many organizations are looking at to try and provide better food because we know that if you do not give children the basic foundation of healthy food, they are going to be health compromised. And never mind the opportunities they don’t get, they’re cognitively compromised. So I think this synergy between health and food and what I would love to see

24:52
are more initiatives like the one I see at New York Wellesley Hospital where people are now asked, know, do you have enough food at home? Are you able to get the healthy food you have at home? And the next step, quite honestly, is a partnership between the food relief organizations and those groups. You know, you’re talking to someone who’s leading an incredible community-supported food relief organization that touches six

25:20
communities in greater Boston. do that through the generosity of individuals primarily. We don’t receive any state funds. We don’t receive any city funds. We don’t have any broad partnerships. We’re working out of tiny little rooms and of church. right, but to really transform this, we need partnerships. All of us need ways to get the food to people in places where they are. And they need to start to see, in my opinion, that that’s part of their mission.

25:50
That’s my wish. If I were to look to try and broaden the reach here, hospitals, medical community centers, they prescribe medicine. What if you’re here, you’re talking to somebody who says, I’m really struggling. You want to hand them a list of resources, you want to hand them a bag of food or a $25 gift card from the market. I just think we as a nation, we as local communities, there are a lot of really well-intentioned people.

26:20
there needs to be this kind of transformative moment here uh in those kinds of partnerships and other approaches like free grocery stores for people who qualify. Right. uh So, you know, know I’ve drifted a bit maybe from your original question, but you’re trying to look at where do we go from here? How do we make, how do we help? Right. And really looking at health, you know, more than any other basic human need, you know, my line is we need to provide basic.

26:50
human needs to people. That’s food, that’s housing, that’s healthcare. You give those three things, you have a population of people who can work and thrive, reach their potential, but reach their potential and contribute in a way to the better life for all of us. So I think there’s a real synergy there that I think is

27:18
people are trying to move forward, we’re all sort of in our silos about, and my hope would be that we can make some progress. Yeah. It’s actually a great segue to a question I was thinking of, taking it from here, as you said, what do we do next? How can we help? How can listeners help? And really when you think about the stories that stay with you.

27:47
from the families, the volunteers, the community, what gives you hope about the future of addressing food insecurity in our community and even more largely? I’m so glad you asked because sometimes I swim in a sea of sadness um at times because it is. uh Yet, I don’t feel sad. And the reason I don’t

28:15
feel sad is first and foremost, those who visit us for food are the most resilient, upbeat, capable people I think I’ve ever seen. And they are uh truly an example of how you transform hardship into hope, the way they live their lives, the way they share their gratitude with the volunteers. that’s just extraordinary. It’s a privilege to be able to talk with them and have their trust.

28:45
The other hopeful piece is I am in a situation where I am working alongside people like you and hundreds of others who give their time, give of themselves to make that difference and are concerned for people they don’t know but are willing to put in the work to make that difference. Not everybody can do that, right? Then there are those who donate financially to support our work and we direct

29:14
98 % of the funds we get into programs that deliver food and we transform their money into food at a rate that’s more effective than someone just handing us food. So, you without that financial support, we could not go further. Then if you keep going up the chain, there are people in organizations, whether they be the hospitals, the social service agencies, the state government, who are trying to bring us together, who are trying to put systemic changes in place.

29:44
For the first time ever, there’s a coalition, uh Make Hunger History in Massachusetts. There’s an office for food security, both at the city level and the city of Austin and the state level. It’s hard though, right? Because while we’re doing the work, it’s hard to then pop up and create the framework of changes. And it’s extremely hard when at a very high level, the federal government isn’t collaborating with us on that. In fact, it’s creating…

30:14
circumstances that are sabotaging it. So I think I’m hopeful that the core DNA of our humanity is to want to help those who are around us. all want to know. It’s just, we are, you know, it’s the moving train thing. If we saw someone in front of a moving train, nine out of 10 people will push that person out of the way. We are people, our humanity is to help. That’s so positive.

30:44
We need to find ways to channel that, that create both local and broad change. So I am hopeful because we all, doesn’t matter where you’re from in this country. I just heard people from Elliott County, Kentucky saying, I just want to feed my family. You could go around, you could ask people from any race, any culture, any religion, any part of this country, what is the core tenant of their success and dignity as a human? And they will say,

31:13
I just want to feed my family. And that is what mobilizes us. So I’m optimistic. I’m optimistic that this moment in time will pass, that we will get better at it, that good people will always be drawn to help. And let me be clear here. People in this country are dealing with hunger. It’s not starvation at the level you see in famine. Because people don’t…

31:42
People think hunger and they think starvation. Hunger here means people are skipping meals so their kids eat. They are not getting enough food on the table so that the kid doesn’t walk away hungry or they’re not hungry. Hunger means they’re not getting access to the nutritious food that they need, not just want, but need to be healthy so they’re not dealing with doctor visits, dentist visits. uh

32:12
That’s hunger, and that’s real, and that’s here. So, I’m just profoundly grateful that there are people who support Center Street, who support their local organizations, and those who are in positions of more influence than me, who are at state and government levels to try, and in hospitals, to make broad sweeping changes. So that’s my hope.

32:41
That’s my optimism.

32:44
So Rose, I’ll give you now a word and I would love your first reaction to it. So the first one is leadership. Well, we admire our leaders, don’t we? I I think about leadership being an essential piece of uh an essential quality for change. think that’s what I would say. You need leadership to transform something. You need leadership for change.

33:12
We discussed a lot about this. My second word is hunger.

33:22
Yeah, that immediately touched me as a child, right? And I will say that for me, hunger created a level of resilience. It created… um

33:40
a belief in myself and learning how to live with it all the time and overcome it. I’ll just share very quickly, when I was in high school, I was on a lot of sports teams and I went to uh a private high school in Milton um and the girls would go out afterwards for pizza and I could never join. And I always said it was because I had to get home and I had a long commute, all that was true. I didn’t have a dollar.

34:09
to contribute, right? And I maintained that, you know, and I never thought of myself as lesser than, I just couldn’t do that. And I was going to overcome that. I was still going to go home, do my homework and be one of them. So there’s a certain resilience that comes with hunger. It’s unfortunate and not always the outcome, right? But that’s just my little, little story.

34:39
What about Center Street? You know, it’s a Center Street is a sounds crazy, but it’s a joyous place. um You know, here we are this dealing with this onslaught of need, especially in this day. um And we’ve created this m convivial collaborative community that of people who genuinely enjoy coming in, get right to work. um

35:09
and offer that and more. uh And I’ll share with you that there’s a volunteer who’s with us right now who was a volunteer pre-pandemic. He used to walk around the pantry and help people get their groceries. And he’s not a young man. Many volunteers are retired. are ah very fit, though. I’ve often said, boy, don’t put me next to that person. You’re going to put me to shame. uh

35:37
And he walked up to me and he volunteers regularly and he’s volunteered regularly. He’s great rapport with clients. When he heard about what was happening this week with Snap, he took me aside. He said, I know you can’t tell me exactly what’s going, what we’re going to do differently. I’m sure we’re going to get that message. I just want you to know you want to open another day. I will be there all day. You want to open at night? I will come at night. You can rely. I am here, right? That’s just crazy good. And I just said,

36:06
Thank you. mean, I’m often overwhelmed by the generosity and the good naturedness of everyone. um So yeah, that’s Center Street. uh It’s really a remarkable organization that regularly, by the way, deals with very extreme circumstances, right? We’re weather dependent. know, people are sometimes outside bringing groceries to people at the curb when it’s 20 degrees, when it’s raining. You know, we have tents that we have to pop.

36:35
water off of and it falls down people’s backs and everybody’s laughing, you know, we, we, and, we are all, you know, with, just a little bit of guidance from me in the very early days, interacting with respect and kindness to all who come, you know, the fact that last week we had cotton candy to give out to the children because a volunteer has a cotton candy machine and they came in to do that. It brings a level of, um,

37:06
Again, dignity. You’re not coming to a food pantry. One of the clients even said to me, she told her daughter when they were out of milk, don’t worry, mommy’s going to go and get milk today. She’s going shopping. We’re shopping. And the fact that those parents could bring home a cotton candy cone to their kids, they didn’t go to the food pantry. And then they did. So there’s this sort great feeling here of

37:35
of how do we interact with our clients? And our volunteers exemplify that every single time. One of the tweaks I introduced, by the way, is if people are wondering is never ask somebody, are they here for the food pantry? If somebody asks you for something, never say no reflexively. Always say, how can I help you today? What more can I get you today? And if they ask for something, then say, let me see what I can do about that. Because these are people that are constantly having to

38:05
negotiate things, their healthcare premiums, whatever it is. To be welcomed with, me see what I can do for you, or is there something else you need, or how are you today, or isn’t it great? Just keep it at that level so they feel like this is a safe place. They can ask for something. And the ask is simple. Can I have wheat bread instead of white bread, or do you have any more of that? And to hear, let me see what I can do. Let me go.

38:35
It doesn’t mean you can accommodate everyone or that we’re having special favors. uh People know that. The act of being heard, acknowledged. brings this humanity. No, we don’t do that. And now I think an extension of that, which I’ll share with you, about is we had a situation and we have situations at times when we just have more people than we can serve. We are just truly out of food.

39:05
And so we have this breakfast bag program, which came to me out of clients. ah And we give, if we are out, we always make sure we have eggs, cheese, milk, and fresh sliced bread. We can hand that back to people who we don’t have a full complement of groceries for. It doesn’t count against them coming in to get groceries. And that not only gives them dinner, but breakfast the next morning. Because sometimes there actually is no food at home.

39:34
And it came to me when somebody saw that we had some leftover bagels one night and we didn’t have any more. And she said, do you, can I have those? I said, of course you can have those. She said, well, if you have some eggs, I can make egg sandwiches for my children tonight. So I think, you know, the fact that we go that little extra so that, you know, again, that goes back to something I said very early in the podcast, you know, listening to what people need right now and being aware that there are people who are going home to nothing.

40:04
It just is. So we’ve got that stop cap. And that’s another piece of dignity. Not know we’re out of food, but I don’t have a full complement of groceries, but I do have this. Is that going to be helpful to you? And nine times out of 10 it is. So I’m just grateful we can do that. And that’s because we get donations, right? can, we, you know, we, we do get the eggs from the food bank at no cost. do, you know, but get other things, but we need to buy that bread.

40:34
um But that’s a bet for somebody who isn’t able to go home with any food at all that night. And as you started, it’s a special place, joyous place, I think what you said, from certainly the households who come to volunteers, to the board, you, our staff, and also certainly donors who make

41:03
all of this also possible. So thanks, Rose, how you’ve been leading and bringing those pieces, really like tying up from your story and how you think about this to now serving people with dignity and equity. The last word I always ask my guests is spread love in organizations. What’s your reaction to this?

41:32
such a great way to refocus the purpose of organizations. We all get caught uh in nonprofit, particularly on the mission. We all meet the mission. But coming out of the corporate world, that would just seem like a complete contrary thing to say. And I will tell you that when I had my software company, uh we partnered with nonprofit organizations to help them.

42:02
I think the idea of spreading the love is spreading our humanity. Let’s not forget that as part of what we intellectually are here to do. I think we emotionally package up that feeling of love. Because what is it? It’s love for one another. It’s love for ourselves to be able to step up and acknowledge maybe the parts of all of us. My story is somewhat unique as I’ve learned, but…

42:30
many people have had hardship in their early lives in different ways, whether they come from countries that they dealt with it. And you have to have a certain amount of love for yourself to own that. And when you own it, it allows you to move forward and in a positive way. So I think that’s a fabulous thing because we don’t think about love and we so many hours, you know, and I think, you know, um

43:00
You know, I think when you see people who are very good at what they do, they love it. Yeah. Right. They love it. And so I think back to the leadership thing, leadership probably has a lot of love in it. It does. It certainly does.

43:21
Any final words of wisdom, Rose, for leaders around the world? Don’t give up. It’s hard. Just don’t. You know, I will tell you that I thought I was joining Center Street, I’d only be there a couple of years, and I would retire. I didn’t really think about what that meant.

43:46
And now I realize that for some leaders, there’s a purpose. And it’s okay if that purpose is more of your life than you thought, right? These are times when it would be easy and understandable to just give up. No. People, need you. Every leader in every way, whether it’s a small meals agency to a government position,

44:16
We are small ripples in a big pond and together the large impact will be, it’s going to make a difference. Just visualize it. We’re all throwing that pebble in the pond. And the more of us who do that, the better we will all be. So don’t give up. Well, thank you so much, Rose, for this very inspiring discussion we’ve had and for all you do locally and

44:45
beyond, I should say. Thanks again for joining me today. Thank you very much.

44:53
Thanks for listening to the show. For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to spreadloveio.com or whatever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare one story at a time.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

00:04
Welcome to Spread Love and Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose. I’m Nagy, your host, and I have the pleasure today to be sitting with two leaders who’ve spent decades navigating one of the world’s most complex industries, my industry, biotech and pharma. Jean-Noël Pellegrain and Alain Eudaric aren’t just strategists or deal makers, they’re connectors of purpose, people, and innovation.

00:32
It is really great to have you both with me today. You’ve earned the reputation of a strategist across borders, advising biopharma leaders on growth, integration and innovation across markets. Before launching idea pathways and shaping decisions from the consulting side, what first drew you into the space? Thanks, Nadjian. Thank you for having me. I’m delighted to be here. So what first drew me in?

00:59
Honestly, I did not set out thinking and end up advising biotech and pharma companies around the world. My background is in engineering and I’ve always been fascinated by how things work, especially when it comes to complex and cutting edge systems. But what really hooked me into the biopharma space was seeing how people, science and business come together in this industry. There was a time in my career where I worked first for global life sciences instrumentation company.

01:28
and then for global pharma services organization. I’ve been part of incredibly smart teams trying to bring real innovation to life. But I also saw how often great ideas struggled, not because of the science, but because of misalignment between strategy, execution, and what the market actually needed. That disconnect really stuck with me. And that experience is actually the one that shaped everything I’ve done since.

01:55
I founded Idea Pathways to help biotech and pharma teams navigate that complexity. Whether it’s building strategy, scaling across geographies, working through a deal, or unlocking value that gets stuck in silos, I found that most challenges come down to two things, clarity and follow through. Thanks so much, Alain, for this. can only agree that it’s a need. And I’m sure, Jean-Louis, you’ll go through this too later on with your book.

02:25
But you’ve spent two decades, John-O-Well, shaping biopharma deeds from the inside, building valuation models, structuring transactions, and guiding M &A or business development decisions at Sanofi and beyond. But before the spreadsheets and strategic negotiations, what really first brought you into this work? Thanks, Neji, and thank you for having me. I started my career at ENY in Paris before stepping into CFO roles.

02:55
across diverse companies like Renault, IBM. But it has been my 19 years at Sanofi where I really found my passion for unlocking value in life sciences. What excites me most in working is working side by side with engineers and scientists to build forecasts and business cases that bring innovative ideas.

03:22
close to reality, this is what we want to do. At Sanofi, I’ve been deeply involved in hundreds of licensing deals, partnerships and M &A projects, always fully embedded in the project teams and collectively driving forward. So this international cross-functional collaborations across multiple therapeutic areas.

03:52
have been eye-opening. I have seen how finance is not just about numbers, it’s about shaping decisions. Projects can get a swift no if the value is not there. And that puts a real responsibility on us to work closely with R &D, commercial, business development teams to thoroughly evaluate every opportunity. That’s where we

04:22
can have a real value be unlocked for a project. I love this. You you said something bringing innovation into reality. I think this is what we do here in pharma and biotech and ultimately bringing life changing innovations for patients into uh reality. and I first connected while working with entrepreneurs, helping them really shape kind of their venture, navigate the leap.

04:51
from science to strategy to seeing this, what John Well said, like this opportunity, getting it to patients. Were there a moment in those conversations or collaborations that sparked the idea for this great book, The Thriving Biopharma Business? Definitely. You know, early on, I spent a lot of time, as said, coaching biotech startups and listening to many pitches from scientific entrepreneurs.

05:18
And what stood out was how often the feedback I gave circled back to similar core themes. Those included clearly defining the company purpose, understanding the problems that they were solving and for whom, articulating why their solution made sense in the current market, and demonstrating a sustainable business model with strong financials and investment plans. It also involved explaining their unique position against their competition.

05:48
showing why their team was the right one to make it happen. And after a while, I found myself looking for a book I could confidently recommend to these founders. Something practical, something insightful, something tailored to their unique challenges. However, surprisingly, I could not find a resource that really hit the market in that respect. So that’s when we started thinking maybe we should write that book. And I share that idea with Jean-Noël at the time, was equally passionate about helping biotech leaders thrive.

06:18
So together we decided to take that leap and put those real world lessons into a practical guide, which is that book. So next step for us was to find the right publishing partner. And we are fortunate that Teller and Francis at the time quickly saw the value in our proposal. And their support gave us the confidence, the platform turned those insights into the thriving biopharma business, which is really a book directly born from the frontline of biotech entrepreneurship.

06:48
We wrote it for leaders who want a practical guide to building and growing companies in this space. It’s packed with real world examples, frameworks, and lessons learned from the field.

07:00
And it is a great book for those in the industry, as you shared. And Jean-Noel, you have also a full-time job, like Alain, writing a book is never a small undertaking, especially when you’re trying to do this in an industry complex like biopharma and really spanning from strategy, finance, leadership. How did you and Adab decide to take this on together?

07:30
And what made this collaboration kind of blank? Yes, in fact, what Alain described really resonated with me. While he was hearing similar themes around purpose, market fit, business models, also uh on my side, the challenges on the finance and deal making side. I know the types of how many talented scientists

07:59
struggled to frame their innovations in terms of value creation, investor expectations, or deal structures. These gaps often created barriers to growth, even when the science was solid. That’s when it clicked for us by combining Alan’s deep strategy and operational insight with my experience in finance, valuation, and

08:29
deal making in a big pharma context. We could offer a more complete picture. Our skills completed each other perfectly. Together, we decided to turn our shared observations into a practical guide that helps biotech leaders move beyond just the science and build companies that can attract investment and scale effectively.

08:58
And this collaboration allowed us to bring different but equally essential perspectives to the book, ensuring it speaks directly to the diverse challenges biotech entrepreneurs face every day. So I love that because it’s already kind of cross-collaboration on the different really capabilities, expertise that you both bring.

09:23
I’d love now to go and dig a little bit more into the insights of the book and what you’re sharing. So one of the things is those strategic pivots that can really define companies future. And we see it quite a bit in, uh in bio pharma early beginning. Can you walk us through one that stands out and leadership mindset that really turned uncertainty that we live daily in this industry into momentum? Sure.

09:51
One strategic pivot that stood out for me really in Bio Pharma is Moderna’s bold decision to focus entirely on mRNA vaccines during the COVID-19 pandemic. It’s an example that people know well. At a time when mRNA was still an emerging and somewhat unproven technology, CEO Stephane Bancel and his leadership team leaned into relentless curiosity.

10:18
and took really calculated risk to rapidly develop a vaccine that would reshape global health. And this pivot perfectly illustrated a key theme from chapter four in our book, The Thriving Biopharma Business. Great outcomes demand more than science. You need the ability to set strategy in a disciplined way while remaining flexible. You need to provide a clear vision. And finally, you need decisive leaders.

10:46
That’s how you turn uncertainty into opportunity. Instead of simply reacting, Moderna’s leadership was able to follow a clear MRNA roadmap with careful market priorities. They stayed nimble and struck a balance between bold innovation and solid planning in my view. I believe that greatly helped them move fast, make a real impact, and build lasting value for the company.

11:14
That’s a great example. And certainly you’re ending on value creation, right? For the company, for the society, for shareholders and all stakeholders basically. And really like the valuation in pharma and biotech is a complex piece. So Jean-Noel, you’re one of the experts on those things. Can you share with us a little bit your thoughts on value creation in our industry? Yes. In fact, with experience, you can see that your point about

11:44
valuations, transcending pure financials, particularly insightful. I would like to illustrate it with two stories, two acquisition stories. The first was um with a mid-stage biopharma company. They had this exciting therapeutic that has been on the market for about three years, but it was still, you know, in a critical critical

12:13
uh commercial ramp up where you know every quarter matters and the sales team is building a momentum and valuable experience. The temptation for as an acquiring company is to come in and start aligning all the processes, integrating all systems and to just standardize everything from day one. But we realized that

12:43
In this case, if we disrupted their commercial momentum, we would essentially be destroying the very value we paid for. So our leadership team made a very uh conscious decision to give their commercial organization significant autonomy. They maintained their sales structure and preserved their go-to market approach.

13:11
So we made sure the team felt valued and included rather than lost in a very large organization like a big firm. So we had to resist the urge to standardize. So it was a restraint, a restraint in preserving their commercial operations, which proved essential to maintain their operational performance and at the same time reach our financial targets.

13:40
after the deal closed. So this case was, I have another case where with a small startup with maybe 15 people, they had a breakthrough technology at a very early development. This was a completely different challenge dealing with a brilliant team of scientists. So there was no way to roll them into our process heavy.

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standard big pharma approach. So it would simply have killed the innovation potential there were building. So in fact, here again, our leadership had to resist the urge to integrate everything immediately. So we preserved the innovation ecosystem they had built while ensuring adequate, albeit

14:39
minimal corporate requirements. This took real emotional intelligence, pragmatic judgment, I would say, on the part of the executive team. So in both these situations, the financial models look great on paper, but the real value creation came down to the leadership team having the business instinct to hold back.

15:10
know where, when to preserve and protect the key value drivers and when to align with the broader corporate goals. These are really great framings actually as we think about those like from what makes sense on paper you’re bringing it back to something that is very close to my heart which is leadership, the instinct to make sure that things are well integrated you even said the urge

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resist the urge to integrate immediately. So all those, all those pieces comes back to the beauty of what we do, right? Like it’s people, it’s humans and how we interact and think about these problems. And if I go a step backwards, before you get into those MNAs or or deeds and partnerships between pharma, biotechs, the pitches themselves, like how do they pitch to you? How do they tell you the story? Does storytelling even play a role?

16:08
in a data and science driven industry. So I’m intrigued, and I’ve seen several of those. Is there like a most unforgettable pitch that you’ve witnessed and how did it connect with decision makers at a human level to make the deal? So, Nadjia, I’m really glad you asked this question. This is something I’m really passionate about. You literally stumbled upon one of my soapboxes.

16:36
The ability to tell stories and pitch is so important that we opened the thriving biofarm business with a section titled, The Importance of Stories Over Data. And we even dedicate an entire chapter, chapter six, to helping leaders craft strong pitches that speak to their audiences. In there, we cover how to structure a pitch, we consider cultural context, when to submit questions, how to leave a lasting uh impression.

17:04
And as you said, in bioforma, a great pitch is not just about what you know, it’s about helping others believe in what is possible. The most effective pitches I’ve seen or witnessed combine three elements in my view, logic, emotion, and trust. And those need to be packaged into a coherent and compelling package. This is something we illustrate in detail at the beginning of our book. And while logic is the default language of science,

17:33
using clinical trial results, technical analysis, emotions do connect us on a more universal level, often through inspirational patient stories. And trust is built through credible references, key opinion leaders, and a clear articulation of the unmet needs and potential impact. And to come back to your original question, maybe one of the most memorable examples I’ve seen was

18:00
vertex pharmaceutical during the lead up to Trikafta. The clinical results there was strong. It was a therapy that could benefit about 90 % of people with cystic fibrosis. They were tackling genetics for the first time at an incredible scale. But what made that pitch resonate with me at the time was how they brought the science to life through the voice of patients and families. In one widely shared story, for instance,

18:30
You saw a mother of a 10-year-old patient that described what the treatment meant to her. She said it lifted a weight she had been carrying since her son’s diagnosis. For the first time, she could picture him growing up with healthy lungs. And that moment really stayed with me. When you pair a story like that with solid data and a clear market need, the message does tick. And it worked.

18:56
Trikafta became a commercial success. It drove significant revenue growth for the company. It reshaped expectations in rare disease drug development. But it started with a pitch that made people care and believe before they even had time to analyze the numbers. Yeah, I certainly relate to that. I’m now in the rare disease space. And really, when you hear those powerful story of patients.

19:24
and how those drugs can transform their lives, make you wake up every morning, but also make the story more compelling, but with data, as you said, and a clear unmet medical need. I’m going to now move to a place where I’ll give you a word and I would love for you to react to it. The first one is leadership. So maybe I take the lead on this one.

19:53
Leadership for me is integrative leadership. And by that, mean a leadership style that brings together diverse perspectives across science, across regulatory, across commercial functions, geographies, and more. It’s really about connecting the dots across disciplines and teams to create real alignment and fuel innovation. In the Thriving Biopharm of Business, we emphasize how this approach can really unlock values for companies.

20:21
Leaders who create open collaborations between R &D, regulatory, commercial, and external stakeholders build the kind of ecosystem where complex challenges are addressed from multiple angles. And that alignment speeds up decision making, it avoids duplication, it drives innovation that delivers for patients. This approach becomes especially powerful in my view during complex strategic decisions. In the book, for instance, we explore

20:50
In the case of Roche, a 2022 partnership with SmallBioTech to develop a new cancer treatment targeting tough-to-treat mutations. And we noticed that the deal threw four key lenses, financial, market, competition, and operations. In the case of financials, we need to ask whether the structure of the deal generates sufficient value. How does it compare to other options with similar risk?

21:17
Does it reflect the funding environment that most biopharmacompanies face in practice today? From a market perspective, we need to evaluate how attractive this particular segment is, how challenging market access might be, how complex the regulatory landscape might be, and whether the opportunity really fits the company’s capabilities. On the competition side, it’s all about how the deal leverage differentiated and unique companies’ strengths.

21:45
how it secures freedom to operate from an IP perspective, how it positions the therapy to stand out within a crowded and fast-moving field. Operationally, the review considers access to the right expertise something critical nowadays, whether manufacturing capabilities will be available in a timely fashion, and whether the supply chain can hold up under pressure. That kind of resilience to disruption is something the industry has paid, as you know, closer attention to since the pandemic.

22:15
And by looking at those four dimensions across, this is the kind of integrative analysis, integrative leadership that brings clarity to complex partnerships and help companies move forward with confidence and speed, even in high stakes, high uncertainty environments. I love this concept of integrative leadership. I’m sure Jean-Noel, you can also bring another lens to it, an additional lens to it as you guys complement one another. uh

22:44
I’ll let you react to it too. Yeah, okay. In fact, integrative leadership can also be viewed in the context of a transaction of a partnership. Imagine when experts on both sides, they do not share, only share data, but they build a genuine understanding and trust. It’s very rewarding for both cases. So when you get

23:11
both functional teams working together openly on both sides, you create a solid foundation that allows for creative problem solving and flexibility. uh They can make or break a deal beyond financial terms or legal frameworks that we have for any transaction. And also, this is important, uh

23:39
when you are in a context across borders, when you have cultural nuances that come into play. So for example, I remember an acquisition with a biotech company where from the very first meeting, you could tell that the sales side team was prepared to collaborate and not just prepared to defend their company.

24:08
So they had done incredible preparation, but not just from the standard data or material point of view, but also detailed document proactively addressing most of our concerns as a buyer. So whenever we needed clarification, they were extremely responsive and promptly organized meetings with their, of course, the relevant experts. So in fact, in this

24:37
experience, what really stood out for me was their open mindset and their exceptional cross-functional approach, in particular from regulatory affairs, lead scientists, commercial strategy. So in this area, it wasn’t just buyers versus sellers. It was problem solvers talking to problem solvers. And this was very, very

25:07
helpful. This quality of exchanges was essential to closing the deal in a very timely manner because the acquired products represented a new therapeutic field for us and we needed a better understanding of operational aspects and specific risks. So their communication approach and collaborative framework helped build trust and enable our team

25:36
to complete successfully all the due diligence tasks within a very short, demanding two, three week timeframe. So one reason why integrative leadership allows for such performance is that generates a generally open environment where both sides foster a partnership mentality.

26:06
other than a purely transactional one. So in this transaction example, just described, the process went in fact, mostly than we would have expected. And we created a mutual goodwill and we were positioned for a successful company integration, post acquisition. And so for me,

26:32
uh I would say that integrative leadership is a mindset that can prove decisive in many other contexts. Like when you, for example, other transactions, when you are co-developing a combined product that requires another company’s support, for example. Yeah. And this is really an incredible example and way of thinking of things. And I certainly

27:01
see it working here and beyond, right? Because you said something super powerful instead of being one against the other is how can we partner to solve the same problem that both companies are solving? One needs a partner, needs funding, the other is trying to bring this asset to market. So it’s great examples. The second word I would love a reaction to is entrepreneurs. Yeah, we can see that.

27:29
And in my experience, we consider that biotech entrepreneurs, they should act as savvy business builders, not just scientists, but also business builders. Alongside great science, in fact, investors who expect a clear business model, a solid market plan, and a smart financing path.

27:58
So start-up entrepreneurs, we succeed in our today’s very uncertain environment. They blend strong business skills with scientific innovation.

28:14
What about resilience? So I guess I’ll take that one on. So I actually have the perfect answer for this, you know, and there is something that has anchored me during turbulent times. And it’s actually a poem, believe it or not. It’s titled If by Rudolf Kipling. It is 32 lines of resilience, humility and focus under pressure.

28:40
And my father gave it to me in France when I was a kid growing up in Paris. And it’s really encouraged me ever since. Well, Alain, I need to add that on the page, actually. So I’ll have to read it and translate it and add it on the page. I love it. The last word I always ask uh my guests is spread love in organizations. Give me a reaction to

29:09
So for this, it’s better to clearly articulate the value proposition that your technology or lead asset uh to better attract investor interest. They need a clear, compelling narrative that demonstrates the scientific promise, but also the commercial viability.

29:37
We will do it because that will be the conclusion. So on that I will ask you question about final word of wisdom for leaders. on spread love and organizations, can you react on… Because you talk a lot about leadership, how you tell the story, the working together.

30:00
So can perhaps start over with integrative leadership. Like Spread Love and Organization, it’s about integrative leadership and partnering with one another. Maybe I should start first because otherwise it’d be back to the… so that we can have a dynamic. Okay. And so the last two sentences… The last sentences are for you two. So I’ll the question, a final word of wisdom. And can do it. Okay. Do you to react to Spread Love or do take

30:29
I think it’s not worth to answer. So I’m spread love and organizations. You have an idea? Improvise it. Improvise it. Okay. The final word is spread love and organizations. Thank you, Nadhi, for mentioning this. I think this is one of the passions, the underlying passions that’s pretty much central in the industry.

30:57
for many entrepreneurs and many executives in BioDek. And that’s actually something we acknowledge in the beginning of the book. And I would like again, take the opportunity to on behalf of both of us to thank all those leaders in the industry for their passion for sharing that love and for their commitment to making the world a better place and developing new therapies. So that to me is a given building block for the industry. A hundred percent. This is why we wake up every morning and

31:26
Thanks for shining those great cases in your book. Any final word of wisdom, Don Noel and Alain, for healthcare leaders around the world? I would say clearly articulate the value proposition your technology or leadership set will bring to attract investor interest. they seek, investors seek clear, compelling narratives.

31:54
that demonstrate both scientific promise and commercial viability.

32:02
Now, thing I do hope listeners take away from today’s discussion is the vital role of relentless curiosity in driving innovation. now, combining that with strong storytelling capabilities, financial savanness, and calculated risk-taking can really unlock value in the industry. These are insights we explore deeply in our upcoming book, The Thriving Biofarm Business. So stay tuned for more insight there.

32:33
These are great charges and bits of wisdoms for us to think of as leaders in healthcare. Thank you both, Alain and Jean-Noel, for being with me today. Thanks for listening to the show. For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to spreadloveio.com or whatever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare. One story at a time.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

I am Naji, your host for this special episode in partnership with Boston Biotechnology Summit, a bridge to collaboration and innovative synergies between healthcare stakeholders. I am joined today Benjamin Hadida co-founder of Exeliom Biosciences, a clinical-stage biotech company founded in 2016 in France, winner of the Biotech Summit Pitch this year. With experience spanning investment banking, venture capital, regulatory affairs, biotech operations, and applied research, Benjamin brings a multidisciplinary perspective to biotech innovation. He holds master’s degrees in Management from ESSEC Business School, and Molecular and Cellular Biology from Sorbonne. Under his leadership, Exeliom has raised $29 million to develop EXL01, a groundbreaking microbiome-based immunomodulator targeting the innate immune system. This first-in-class therapy is now in Phase 2 trials for Immuno-oncology, Inflammatory Bowel Diseases and Infectious Diseases.

I’d love first to hear more about your personal story before we go into the biotech world. What brought you to found and lead now Excellium?

Benjamin Hadida: Really it was the willingness to create my dream job and I was not able to find it. There’s a lot of biotech activities in France but not so many biotech companies developing actual novel drugs and the number of options were very limited.

But the science is excellent with all these academic institutions creating a lot of new opportunities there. So the idea was just okay let’s meet an excellent scientific team and create the dream job. I love that and kind of like how did you land into knowing that health care, biotech is kind of your dream and what you want to do in your life? So yeah it’s a good question because at the start I had a very generalist background.

I did the preparatory schools in France and then went to ESSEC business school where I was mostly studying corporate finance. But then I was trying to find an area where I could apply this knowledge and I was immediately attracted by the health care because there was something more to it. We were talking about life and death, about ethical issues and I had this opportunity to discover the field through an innovation therapeutic share at ESSEC business school and then I went to Amgen and definitely I fell in love with the complexity of this field.

So from generalistic to you’ve worked in pharma, you’ve worked in venture capital and now really building the company since it’s been nine years on your anniversary. So tell us more about this journey and how it started and I’m sure it’s a roller coaster of a journey as any biotech. Can you tell us a little bit more about your key learning as you’ve been building this venture? To be honest it’s better not to know everything before you start especially as you’re developing a first-in-class modality.

I mean it’s already a first-in-class but it’s also a novel modality so there were so many question marks and to be honest I tried to present it to the people I met. So first of all my co-founders but also my first investors. I tried to convince them that because you know it would be the first time for me that I would do these things I would do better than anyone else because I would give it everything but while keeping the openness you know because my starting point was I don’t know anything so I would go talk to as many people who were supposed to know and then practice my best judgment to make the next decision and little by little we start building this project and the organization around it but really it was tailor-made.

We were not applying any recipe and you know very early on we decided not to have any C-level in the company for instance because we would not have the resources, we didn’t know exactly where we would go with this project, there was no regulatory roadmap, there was nothing written for us. So first decision was to to be completely virtual, no C-level, the experienced people would be outside of the company, they would also evolve with the project and within the company we would have only super project managers basically with no particular experience in drug development but the willingness to learn and this is how we started and I guess this is the reason why we’re able to do what we did. We basically took an academic program with a few slides some great publications but in terms of project just a few slides and we took it to a candidate that is now in phase two that has been seen by many agencies including the FDA and it was really because we were the first one to do what we did and it was the first time as well for us.

It was some kind of a combination of both that made it a success I guess. This is an incredible story and now congrats you’re in phase two, you’re pretty advanced, you have enough runway, you managed to raise 29 million through the years in Europe which is not something simple I would say. What is kind of your biggest learning if you have to pick one? What is the biggest learning for others who are now starting their companies and going into from pre-clin IND or those early stages to becoming clinical stage companies? Yeah the biggest learning is always I ask the question and that’s a question that you should ask almost every day it’s what does the program need and not what do you need or what does your company need but what does the program need because at the end of the day when you look at the valuation even of the company you’re not going to value the people or the many pre-clinical programs that you have especially in this economy the only thing that are valued are the clinical stage assets so our key question was what our lead program needs to be in the clinic as fast as possible in a valuable way and you know to kind of identify what has value and what doesn’t have value and it’s complicated because you know when you are in love with your science with your innovation you see value in a lot of things even in your manufacturing unit because you think it’s unique and you need know-how and so on but before I started this company I had this experience in another biotech company where I was not the co-founder I was just a simple employee and I could see what you know what happens when a biotech falls and at the end of the day what the investor and the financial people will look at and the way you know they put numbers on things and this is very rude and crude and there are not that many things at the end of the day that have value for these guys so to keep your eyes on what do I value and be focused on that seems easy and obvious but that’s not.

Yeah I agree it’s not and it’s I think related to that there are many aspects right like when you’re focusing on what the program needs to bring this innovation and help patients you need to create a culture within the teams and the leaders you bring on and you work with to be able to transcend one’s self-interest and egos and literally work on what’s best for the assets you have to bring it to patients so I think it’s not an easy question but if you manage to do it it talks a lot I think on how you the culture you created. And you know one of the key aspects for that was I know it sounds a bit counterintuitive but in the way we build the company the scientific co-founders they were extremely involved but they were not employees of the companies so they were active consultant or board members but they were outside of the company and our deal from the beginning was that my job would be at some point to tell them things that they won’t like because I would defend the program and at some point the program interest might deviate from their scientific vision or interest and this is something that is not easy as well you know initially we were funded with a major focus in IBD this is where our co-founders came from and at some point we made this prioritization to go to oncology and you know it was massively accepted because and with the support of the co-founders because we set the rules right from the start and they all understood that it was what was best for the program so at some point it’s exactly what you say you you isolate the program and the program has its own interest vision and road map and that’s a great example you know as building companies I’ve had this experience even with startups I just had an idea like kudos to you having those tough conversations in the beginning usually we try to say that you know like we’ll start who knows what it goes and then you know you have tougher conversations later but it’s not the ideal case by learning is also like having those tough conversations in the beginning is crucial for the success of the company and and you’re showing it here tell me more now we’ve mentioned that but tell me briefly about the science what’s what do you do what’s novel in your approach I’ve heard your pitch obviously so I’m a little bit biased but tell me from your lens about your science yeah maybe I can I can I can I can tell about it the way it really started and that’s really interesting because it’s a bit the opposite roadmap of the conventional drug development normally you have a target identify that has some scientific rational you design something to eat that target and you go for it right in our case it’s all started with clinical observations is so just physicians trying to understand why some patients were responding to immunotherapy and why those were not responding and one of our co-founders are is one of the pioneers in trying to get this understanding by looking at the gut microbiome was one of the first to do that and barely early on with not the tools that we have today but the tools that we had 20 years ago he identified a signal which was a particular gut bacteria and then took it to the lab and identify with our other co-founders that in fact this bacteria had a lot of specificities in terms of properties and really it’s only 20 years later that we had the breakthrough where we understood the mechanism of action where it’s while we’re in phase two that we really were able to identify the target that we eat and the cells that we eat and so on with this bacteria so in terms of modality it looks simple we only basically have this master cell bank with one strain a specific strain that we selected from this good bacterial species that is called bacterium prosnitzi we grew it we freeze dried put it in a capsule that is designed to release it in the lower part of the intestine and and then we use it really as an immunomodulator and what we’ve identified in fact this bacteria is carrying on its membrane a specific structure that binds to not two which is an innate immune receptor that is particularly fine it found in macrophages and monocytes yellow itself basically that are particularly present around the intestine so this is really interesting in terms of delivery and when when the bacteria binds to not two or this component binds to not two it acts as a super agonist of not two and activates not two in a very specific way that then makes the the whole system more able to respond to immunotherapy so if you’re in the IBD setting that would be NTTNF if you’re in oncology that would be the immune checkpoint inhibitor and what is very interesting is that not two there’s a lot of rationale in these different therapeutic areas because that’s an immunomodulator that can take macrophages either to an anti-inflammatory phenotype or pro-inflammatory phenotype and this is very context driven so at the beginning we thought we were developing an anti-inflammatory drug based on this bacteria because in the inflammatory setting the effect that you drive is an anti-inflammatory effect but in fact this is not an anti-inflammatory drug that’s just an immunomodulator that activates macrophages so that they do what they’re supposed to do in the context they are so in the context of checkpoint inhibitors in oncology the effect is completely the opposite and you boost the macrophages so that they will help you respond better to immunotherapy and so that’s why now we’ve got phase two trials both in oncology and in Crohn’s disease with the same candidate. This is great and so tell me more I’m intrigued about you know like obviously I’m in immunology too so there is this immunomodulation you’re talking based on the contact so how do you see yourself as a company and as this drug develops is it an add-on it’s an enhancer sometimes for whatever immunological treatment you would have? That’s exactly our vision for this product you know you need to know your product and what it can and cannot do and this is really an add-on positioning it will enhance the response of checkpoint inhibitors the objective is to have more patients responding to these treatments when you combine to it so actually our flagship trial in gastric cancer it’s in first line gastric cancer in combination with chemotherapy and nivolumab and we have a control group where they only take chemotherapy and nivolumab and yeah the idea is really to have more patients responding with the presence of the bacteria and in the context of immunology in Crohn’s disease we are either in monotherapy for the patients that you know where anti-TNF are too toxic for them and there is a major need for these patients because there is just nothing that is given to them if the patient or the physician think that the anti-TNF is too toxic or it can be as an add-on to anti-TNF but definitely the vision is we see that as a boost we helped the immune system to be in a better state for the patients to respond to these treatments we do not really see it as a shock treatment or monotherapy doesn’t make sense to us and this is this is awesome you talked about like you kind of shaping the way it’s true like this was a lot of ideas about microbrome I’m really like it’s great you guys are in phase two and getting there but what is currently you see as your biggest challenge or barrier for you to get to the next stage of getting this to market it’s um I mean if we’re successful with our current trials um I mean either in in oncology or in IBD the next step will require a partnership with the pharma and our biggest challenge right now is to get the pharma on board to educate the pharma regarding this microbiome-based therapies they I mean they had they had been in the past a frenzy regarding microbiome with a number of company raising a lot of money and they did not execute well and we just need to educate pharma to basically they know that already but based on positive data that would be generating to explain that you know there are a million ways to do something and we’re doing right with this very control and defined candidate with an identified target and mechanism with also the right application because you know maybe the companies before us they expected a bit too much from this type of modalities and they did not position it well and most of the time they developed it as a monotherapy in inflammatory settings and it was maybe too much to ask we’re really convinced that what you can expect from these therapies is a long-term effect their strength is their safety profile not their potency but their other strength is to activate the immune system in a non-suppressive way in a different way something that was not done before and as we all know in the immuno setting you need different angles different strategy to combine to have the best effect and we cannot ignore the microbiome components the people I talked to in the pharma world they know that they they are very interested in the microbiome science they just don’t see yet a modality they don’t see yet the the conversion into a product so this is what we need to bring to them show them that in phase two we de-risk the regulatory the manufacturing now the the efficacy and this is not rocket science I mean it already exists when you look at the BCG vaccines on these type of things we’re not that far away in fact the people that evaluate our dossier the FDA are the exact same people that evaluate vaccines because this is the same type of manufacturing it’s just that you do not attenuate the strain because the strain here is good for you but the rest is uh is very similar so it’s not that surprising in a way that’s that’s great and really best of luck with uh with that and again the opportunity you have is you will have data as you said and this is kind of yeah exactly what we live and breathe for summer 2026 and final readout in 27 so uh yeah awesome it’s coming awesome uh I’m gonna now give you a word and I would love your first reaction to it the first word is leadership it’s uh put yourself behind the others not in front of that what about entrepreneurship don’t get any ideas just uh just discover it your way don’t try to to have other people explain it for you microbiome it’s uh for me it’s uh it’s it’s um the other space I mean it’s a the other space discovery uh and it’s fascinating spread love and organizations you cannot you cannot be successful without love any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world yeah just keep your uh your mind open uh don’t get stuck into uh uh to what the the financial people ask you to do well thank you so much again for being with me today and this great thank you so much thank you so much Najee it was nice talking to you thanks for listening to the show more episodes summarizing the boston biotech summit are available on spreadloveio.com or on your preferred podcast app make sure to follow us let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare one story at a time

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

This episode is in partnership with the Termeer Foundation, a nonprofit organization working to vibrantly connect and empower the world of healthcare innovators until every patient has a cure.

I am Naji your host, joined today by Fernando Vieira, a healthcare executive with over 20 years of dedication to advancing ALS research and treatment development at the ALS Therapy Development Institute (ALS TDI), an non-profit biotech company. Fernando has progressed through various leadership roles at ALS TDI, culminating in his current positions as Chief Executive Officer and Chief Scientific Officer. He leads a team of over 25 researchers, overseeing target discovery, drug discovery, biomarker development, and translational ALS research. Having lost his closest friend to ALS, Fernando is deeply committed to translating scientific discoveries into clinical applications that benefit people with ALS. Fernando is a recognized leader in ALS research, affirmed by his roles on the Research Committee of ALS ONE and the International Alliance of ALS/MND Associations Research Directors Forum. He holds multiple patents for novel therapeutic approaches and has contributed to publications in multiple high impact journals such as Nature Communications, Nature Genetics, and Science Translational Medicine. Fernando earned a degree in biological engineering from the University of Florida and his MD from Harvard Medical School. Outside of his professional life, He is a dedicated father to a high school-aged son in Newton. He actively participates in his son’s activities with a local Scouting America troop. In his free time, he enjoys running, hiking, and playing basketball.

Fernando, it’s great to have you on my show and seeing you today.

Fernando Vieira: Thank you, Naji. It’s great to be here and great to speak with you and your audience.

Naji Gehchan: I’d love first to hear more about your personal story and how it links with the important work you are doing today in your non-profit biotech.

Fernando Vieira: Yeah, it’s where to begin, trying to think. I guess I’ll start really young. Going back or thinking back to my childhood, I guess the first job I imagined ever having wasn’t really a job. I imagined being an inventor. I think I always wanted to find ways to solve problems for people that hadn’t yet been addressed yet. Then as I went through high school, I got really interested in biology. I really enjoyed my AP biology course loads and started to think, okay, well, maybe I’ll go into clinical medicine. I pivoted off of that idea of becoming an inventor and more problem-solving very practically in a clinical setting. I never really got off of that completely. When I went through undergrad, I chose to go into biological engineering instead of just a basic biology major because I liked the idea of solving problems still. Then I found myself drawn into laboratory settings and joined a vascular surgery lab at the University of Florida and really ended up loving that. Ultimately, I ended up in the space between undergraduate and medical school. I ended up engaged with the ALS Therapy Development Institute or at the time it was called the Foundation, which was actually founded by a Newton family when one of their family members at the age of 29 had been diagnosed with ALS. I was really drawn to this effort to marshal resources to find treatments for him, to solve problems for him and other people with ALS. So I joined this group and this group was, it was made of kind of a motley crew of people who were trying to solve problems for their family members or some patients themselves were working at this organization. And they had set up a lab and it was a really early stage program. And I thought, Oh, well, maybe I can be helpful here. And, um, and I was drawn to all of these folks and their, their resilience in the face of, of this tragic diagnosis, ALS, for people who don’t know, um, ALS is a neurodegenerative disease that results in the loss of motor neurons in your brain and in your spinal cord, and ultimately results in, in complete paralysis. Um, it’s gradual over time. And there are really no effective treatments for the vast majority of people with ALS today still. And so I was drawn to all of these people and their stories. And I became best friends with one of my colleagues. We became roommates in fact. Um, and he was there because it was in his family for some cases of ALS, it’s directly hereditary and his mother had the disease. When I met him, his grandmother had died of the disease and he didn’t know if he was a mutation carrier himself. And so I stayed involved, uh, with the organization all through, uh, my medical training. And then, uh, at the end of medical school, he was diagnosed with ALS himself. And I watched his progression. Um, it was incredibly rapid. The guy who used to kick my butt on the tennis court, um, nine months later he had passed away. And so, um, I couldn’t imagine, um, becoming a practicing neurologist without something to give a person like Sean, uh, my friend. And so, um, I threw myself full time into, uh, drug discovery and drug development here at our our nonprofit biotech, the ALS therapy development Institute. Um, and it’s been an incredible journey since. Well, thank you, Fernando, for sharing this. And yeah, it’s, uh, as you said, it’s a devastating disease that’s still up to today has no, has no effective therapy or cure. So I’m, I’m intrigued if you can tell us a little bit more about your work because you have patents, you have advancements. So I’d love to know more about what you do, uh, on a daily basis and how you’re advancing research for this disease. Yeah, I’m happy to. So we’re a unique organization. We are a nonprofit, um, but we’re a brick and mortar research lab. Uh, we’re located here in Watertown, Massachusetts, and we have a research team with, uh, three different groups. There is a cell biology team. There is an in vivo pharmacology team. And then we have a clinical team that runs a natural history study slash translational research program that collects data from people with ALS while also collecting samples to generate omics data. And so our research program is very well integrated where we’re, uh, leveraging that natural history study and those omics to, um, prioritize therapeutic targets. We also leverage the reagents, the cell samples that we can collect from those people for our cell biology program, where we build assay systems to validate therapeutic targets and to screen drugs. And then when we’re screening drugs and we find something that has some potential, we have a large, like robust in vivo pharmacology team that can do lead optimization and really validation in an in vivo setting. And so we’re this nonprofit discovery engine where if we discover and invent or help somebody else validate their therapeutic, we either, you know, file for IP ourselves and we kind of spin that forward into the for-profit space for others to pick up and move that into clinical development. And that’s the model. Um, we have, um, some, you know, projects that have moved forward in that way that we’re excited about, but we’re always churning because we understand ALS is really, really complex. There’s a reason we have this natural history study. ALS is not one disease, right? Like cancer as well. These are, uh, complex disorders that we call the same thing that can actually be quite different. And so we know it’s going to take multiple treatments to ultimately address every ALS patient’s needs. And so we’re going to keep at it in this sort of engine. This is great. So I’m really intrigued in this, in this model you just, uh, discussed, right? Like being a non-profit and then building IP and doing a for-profit company. Uh, it’s really fascinating model. Um, and I feel like it’s at the core of how it was founded and this is like one of the values you have. So can you speak a little bit more about why non-profit and, and your view about research in a non-profit based versus biotech, uh, that, you know, like we all know, uh, probably more, I would say than a non-profit biotech. So I’m really interested in your view about this and how you’re leading this. Uh, yeah, I, I think for a disease like ALS, right. Where, um, there’s a lot still unknown and you know that it’s going to be a long haul. There’s a lot of value in building really an infrastructure where you maintain institutional knowledge and you can build over time focused on a specific problem, like in this case, ALS. And so if you’re in many biotech settings, you often are inventing incredible technologies and you’re finding the best path to solving problems quickly. Right. And you’re not necessarily worried about a specific disease. You’re finding the, the, the lock that fits your key, I guess. Like, so we’re, we’re focused on ALS specifically. We’re never going to pivot off of that. And so we get to build over time and learn and, and, uh, remain focused. And I think that’s really it. It’s maintaining sort of the mission and that critical focus on the one disease and not pivoting because you may have a quicker path to maybe a lucrative exit, which I don’t have a problem with that. I don’t have a problem with, with, uh, solving problems and people earning dollars, but for a disease like ALS, I think, uh, our model, uh, makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it certainly does. And, and as you were sharing, I like how you framed it like this, this, this focus, it can provide you a focus on the disease. And especially with diseases like this, where it’s between, you know, immunology symptoms are different. Like we still don’t really know it’s a multi by your framing is correct, right? Like I’m, I’m an autoimmune now that I was in cancer before it’s all, we talk about one type of disease where actually it’s really kind of a spectrum of diseases we just consolidated, but to get to this cure, potentially it might be one patient at a time with different modalities. Yeah. I think we, we, we might have cures, but it’s unlikely we will have a cure, right. Uh, for a disease like ALS and these other conditions. So as you think through it, and you’ve been building research for now a couple of decades, uh, on this disease, what are, where are today some of the specific challenges in this field, uh, and within the nonprofit, uh, nonprofit towards your end? I think, um, in the ALS space, um, a really big challenge is as we start to understand that ALS is more than one condition and you’ll need more than one therapeutic, you start getting to patient subsets that are really quite small. Like you go from a disease that’s an orphan disease, that’s rare to a disease where you have maybe ultra rare. And the, the same challenges in sort of economics of developing, uh, therapeutic for a broad population apply for these ultra rare populations. So it’s, um, trying to find the most expeditious way and efficient way to get really profoundly effective treatments to these smaller populations while also keeping an eye on how those insights could apply to the broader ALS population and, um, um, navigating the, the ecosystem that we’re in to get the most solutions to the most people as effectively as possible. Um, that’s, that’s probably our biggest challenge, right? You might have a therapeutic program that will, that has potential to profoundly affect 20 people living with the disease today. You have a responsibility to develop that and help those people. Um, but you also have to keep the bigger picture in mind. So that’s hard. Um, specifically the nonprofit space, there are definitely, um, major advantages, um, that we, um, you’re not working in specific tranches of funding. You can go out and raise capital for, uh, projects, um, over time. And it gives you a chance to build, uh, knowledge and expertise and develop assets. Um, at the same time, um, the, uh, available funds are not, uh, they’re, they’re, they’re, uh, uh, the pot of, of resources available is smaller in the nonprofit space. So you really do have to always be grinding, um, to keep, uh, these research programs going. So as you think about the next 10 years, let’s say like the next decade, uh, what are you most excited about, uh, as you’re looking ahead really in medicine, in medicines and in the therapies and innovation that you’re seeing today? I was thinking about this recently because, you know, we’ve been at this for a while and I look, I remember back to when I came into the space two decades ago, that version of me would be so jealous of the opportunities we have now, right. Of the new insights that we have into this disease. Um, we might’ve been blissfully unaware, right. That, that the disease was as complex as it is, but, uh, it’s so much better illuminated. Now we were looking in a, in just, uh, a black box in a dark room. And now thanks to various omics technologies, uh, we can really, uh, begin to tease, um, different patient subsets and better therapeutic targets and really go higher upstream, which gives us an opportunity to maybe make a bigger impact. We have a proof of concept, right? So, um, uh, there are rare mutations in a gene called, uh, superoxide dismutase or SOD1, which are responsible for about 2% of all ALS cases. And recently there was an approval of an antisense oligonucleotide, an ASO, um, that suppresses expression of that. It’s called Tofersen by Biogen and Ionis. And that is making a big difference in those people with ALS. Um, and we’re learning from that, that, uh, earlier intervention seems to have a big impact. So I think we have this proof of concept with drug types that didn’t exist years ago and with, uh, better ability to elucidate good targets that we can really make a difference in people with ALS. So it’s just doing that hard work. It’s continuing to, to do the lift, to be able to address that for everybody. And I’m sure you get this question and you kind of like, but I have to ask it, right? Like as you’re looking into targets, obviously one of the biggest questions we constantly get, you know, in healthcare as healthcare leaders is, are you using AI? Right. So I don’t want to get into like just the AI, but I’m sure you have some, because you talked about omics, obviously this is kind of like your business model, uh, and finding not only targets, but specific modalities therapeutically to be able to hit them. I’m sure you have some cool case that you can bring here to kind of really talk use cases versus just generic AI. So I don’t want to put you on the spot, but I’m like, as you were speaking, I’m like, Oh, I’m sure you have some cool examples. There are so many different use cases for AI. Like AI means so many different things. And, and, um, there are some applications that are quite mature. So, um, I’ll, I’m going to veer, veer for a moment away from target discovery into, um, disease, um, symptom measurement. So in ALS, one of the challenges is the heterogeneity of how it presents and a person might have onset in their arm or their leg, or another person might have their voice affected first. And it’s very, very variable in how, um, it progresses, which makes it actually hard to measure if a drug is having a benefit in clinical trials. Um, that’s typically done using, um, you know, subjective surveys, uh, something called the ALS functional rating scale. And, and so one of the elements of our natural history study, uh, which we’ve been running since 2014 has been capturing digital data. So we use actigraphy or accelerometers on people’s wrists and ankles, and we captured digital voice samples. And, um, so back in 2018, 2019, we were working with Google to apply machine learning and artificial intelligence to extract that signal, to measure, um, symptom decline using these digital technologies. And I think, you know, that will provide ultimately, if we can get these into the clinic and clinical testing, more sensitivity to detect therapeutics that are working, maybe in, uh, subsets of responders and really understand the disease that way. So that’s like a very near term application of AI and machine learning. On the other hand, um, applying AI for target discovery, it’s, it’s really exciting to see sort of a big tech’s interest in applying these tools on dataset resources, like the ones that we’ve generated here at ALS TDI and our partners at answer ALS that we’ve kind of joined our large data sets together, um, to really mine them for the most promising targets. It’s early days. Um, sometimes you wonder if we have enough data yet to really parse these things through. Like one of my, I have this, um, experiment in mind, um, to test for the, uh, the effectiveness of the technologies. Don’t tell the tech, uh, don’t tell the model about the genes that we know are important in familial ALS and ask, does it find them? And if it does, then you feel confident in what else it finds. And that might help you, uh, have a little bit more certainty that you should start, um, to explore and prioritize what’s, what’s bubbling out of these AIs. And so we’re, um, we have a number of irons in the fire with partners. We’re not developing the models ourselves. We won’t reinvent those wheels. There are folks out there who are much better at that than we are, uh, but we find partners to help us out. These are great examples. Thank you for sharing those. And I love it because it’s like from target finding to actual clinical practice, as you’re saying, and potential new endpoints, you know, with digital biomarkers, uh, for therapies, uh, I’m going to give you now a word, uh, and I would love to get first things that come to your mind. The first one is leadership. Servant. Uh, I think, um, when you’re really, really young and actually this, I see this in, in my son’s scout troop, when you’re young, you think that, um, leadership positions are kind of an award or like a prize to attain, uh, similar to like winning a race. So you, you’re, I, it’s not like that. Um, uh, leadership roles are, are service roles and, um, you’re just in a different position and you have a different vantage point and you have different responsibilities in the organization, but, um, you are serving your team, uh, in the same way, uh, the, and, and the mission in the same way each one of them are serving the mission. And, and I think that, um, a lot of, you can demonstrate leadership many, many different ways, but, um, the first is be helpful to your team. What about rare diseases? Complex. Um, we’ve, it’s a little bit of a theme that we’ve talked about, but I think, um, when you get into rare diseases, you do start to think, oh, they’re, they’re one thing like, uh, ALS one disease. It’s not, it gets rare, becomes ultra rare, very, very quickly. Um, and each person’s experience with those diseases can vary a lot and you really need to, um, engage with your community, um, to learn about their lived experience and what you need to deliver for them. Tremere foundation. Uh, support. It’s, um, so I’ve, I’ve, I’ve had the honor of being a Tremere fellow. I actually, yesterday was my final day as a 2024, uh, in my active portion of the 2024 Tremere fellowship. Um, it’s a fantastic program that brings together, uh, um, their, the Tremere foundation, uh, has a Tremere fellowship program where they bring together a group every year of first time CEOs and founders. And it’s, it can be out of the for-profit space, but also nonprofit spaces as well. And you go through this incredible year of programming, um, where you’re really supported, um, by the foundation from these fantastic mentors who have really done so many of the things that we’re trying to do, maybe different disease spaces, but, uh, they’ve been impactful and you, you have a chance to really, uh, learn from them even more though, you become really close to your, uh, uh, the members of your cohort and being a CEO can feel lonely at times. Um, and having other folks, uh, to exchange ideas and, uh, talk about your challenges and solutions, um, is incredible. And, uh, I am grateful. Well, and congrats for graduating. I don’t know if you guys say it that way, but I know it’s a really impactful work this foundation is doing. So congrats for your recent graduation. Uh, the last one is spread love and organizations. Um, I, I think, um, so I, speaking of Tremere foundation, um, I was two, two days ago, uh, they were hosting the, um, celebrating the 2025 cohort. And there was a wonderful talk by, um, a pharma exec, a lot, a lot of different domains. His name was, uh, Rod Cotton. And he was speaking about leadership and he was talking about, um, humanity, like, like, um, meeting people where they are. And, um, I think that’s critical to being part of any organization, being part of something that’s like bigger than yourself is spreading love to the people around you and, and, um, and really basking when it’s reflected back to it’s, um, for the problems that we’re trying to address in the life sciences sector. Um, you, um, you want, they, they can be really challenging and, um, emotionally, um, taxing and having people around you who are warm and kind of sharing that back, uh, keeps you going. Any final word of wisdom, uh, Fernando, for healthcare leaders around the world? Um, think about the people that you’re trying to serve, um, and that same token, um, uh, meet them where they are, um, understand their needs. And sometimes, um, we, when you become sort of an expert in a domain, um, um, you think you have the answers, um, but, uh, those conversations can be really illuminating. Um, and that’s one of the other advantages of being part of a non-profit is we’re so connected to our community. So for those who don’t have that advantage, um, go and create that community. Oh, this is great final words. Think about the people you are trying to serve. Thank you for all that you’re bringing to, uh, the ALS community through your work for research and biotech and science. Uh, it’s been a real pleasure and honor to have you with me today, Fernando. Thanks again. Thank you, Najee. Thanks for listening to the show. More episodes in partnership with Termeer Foundation can be found on spreadloveio.com. Make sure to subscribe to Spread Love and Organizations or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare. One story at a time.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

This episode is in partnership with MIT Club of Boston BioSummit. I am Naji your host, joined today by Dimitrios Skaltsas, CEO and co-founder of Intelligencia AI. Founded in 2017, Intelligencia AI leads the way in leveraging proprietary data, biomedical expertise and artificial intelligence with its patented technology to address significant challenges in the pharmaceutical industry. Intelligencia AI has been recognized in Inc. 5000 and as one of the Top 100 Healthcare Technology Companies. In 2021, the company completed its Series A funding and was named one of Forbes’s Top AI Companies to Watch. Before tapping into his entrepreneurial spirit and co-founding Intelligencia AI, Dimitrios spent over a decade in various leadership roles within the healthcare and life sciences sectors. Dimitrios holds an MBA from INSEAD and a law degree from University College London (UCL) and the University of Athens.

Dimitrios Skaltsas: Uh, great to be here. Thanks for having me. Well.

Naji Gehchan: Same here. I’d love first to hear more about your personal story from law to business, to AI in healthcare. What’s in between the lines of this inspiring journey?

Dimitrios Skaltsas: Oh, uh, for sure it has not been a linear journey, um, starting from where I am now. I’m, I’m an immigrant.

I have been in the states since 2013. Um, and I have been fortunate, like, you know, being at the right place at the right time to find fertile ground and grow my ideas and, uh, and create intelligentsia. Um. At the same time, you know, if I go back to my roots, I, you know, I often refer to ODI like Ulysses and you know, the guy who was away from home for 20 years and he was always trying to go back.

Um, yeah, thinking of. Ulysses and, and love. Um, you know, my journey, uh, has also been linking me back to Greece in some ways. So I founded the company in the US and, and most of our, uh, partners and customers are in, in the us. Uh, at the same time, much of the r and d. If you think of biologists and software engineers and data scientists and so on and so forth, they’re locate actually increase, and that’s my way of bringing something back and giving something back to my country.

Naji Gehchan: Um, this is great. I love how you’re framing it also from really as you said, your roots. And we discussed a little bit, uh, the linkage, uh, and going back. Um, so you, you did start studying increase before you, uh, immigrated and it was law. And then now it’s like one of the most, you know, hot topics of AI and in healthcare, which is another also like super intriguing, uh, space.

I imagine for you as you, uh, crack down AI in this space, how, how, how did you make these different pivots in your career?

Dimitrios Skaltsas: Yeah, it’s a bit crazy as you think of it, like going originally from, from load to actually pushing the boundaries of, uh, of AI within, uh, live sciences r and d, uh, identity, the commercial side of it.

Um, again, tying to, um, this podcast here. It is about love. Like, and, and I’ll tie it also to my roots. Uh, I grew up in a family where, uh, you know, I received a lot of love and I, I, I saw also love being expressed in some ways through, um. Healthcare and life science, like, um, one of my parents, uh, used to be a medical doctor so often I, you know, I could, uh, I could see how, you know, patients would, uh.

You know, who would send us wine and cheese and, and, and, and, and flowers and, and, and all those gesture of, uh, you know, saying thank you, um, for becoming healthier. And, um, and uh, also it was a family where, you know, I, I felt my parents were always giving both to me and my siblings, but also to the brother family, to friends around us and so on and so forth.

Um. And also families that, as most of the families were, uh, actually hit at times by, um, you know, medical, uh, malaise and we had people pass away. So that kind of, um, shaped my values system. Um. Now when I decided to what I want to study, I was thinking much more about, uh, you know, how have impact at the social or more broadly public level.

So that’s how I went into law. Not necessarily want to become a lawyer, but more want to have broader impact through how we live, how we regulate our lives, our societies, um. It was interesting, but I, I was also a bit, um, priceless, I would say. Um, and yeah, and then I, I, I made a thing at engineering, uh, which I never crashed from.

Um, electrical and computer, um, electrical engineer, computer science, um. And, and then, uh, you know, consulting somehow showed up. Like, I think I was in one of those people in their early twenties who at some point was not sure what to do with their lives. Uh, and, um, yeah, and the door of management consulting, um, opened up for me.

I, I joined McKinsey where I stayed for several years and. Um, yeah. Yeah. There I experiment again with public and social sector, along with many other industries. But ultimately I experiment also with healthcare. So when I joined, um, I told ’em I wanted to healthcare and public sector, and I, I tried both and at some point I work in life sciences and.

And, and I loved it. Uh, I loved the, the caliber of the people like, you know, very well educated, uh, very well spoken and dialectic in their approach. Um, I loved the, the, the concept of building, like, you know, bringing innovation to, to patients. Um, and. Yeah. At the same time, everything else that I was trying, uh, was leaving me a bit disillusioned, like, you know, with the speed of how things worked in, in other sectors and so on and so forth.

Um, so more and more I trained myself into life. Science was a hard path. You know, if you don’t have the life science academic background, uh, it’s a very. Deep, uh, shield climb, and I was worried about that. Um, but yeah, I guess I, I like the talent and it has helped me. I’m not, I’m not as deep as people like you in in world we two, but that has helped me by definition, create a broader kind of bird side view almost in the space.

Um, and, and that’s one of my strengths.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. And, and here you are now, you are impacting, uh, you’re impacting healthcare, uh, through one of the most hype topic ai, but you’ve done it before it became a thing. So I, I would love here to learn more about what intelligent Gena AI actually does. Uh, and I, uh, I’ve been following your work.

Uh, so give us a pitch of what you do and then we can discuss a little bit more how you’re helping r and d in the biotech and pharma world.

Dimitrios Skaltsas: Yeah, so let me, let me actually. Lay the bridge to exactly what we do. And, and, and I also, um, built on the, on the love theme. I’ll keep building on it. So when I was at consulting at some point, um, McKinsey was experimenting with big data and ai.

That was back in 2015, 16, so relatively early days. And at that point I had realized for myself that one, I love technology. So I love building, I love creating, uh, I love innovation and doing things differently. Um, and that’s where I got an opportunity in, in New York to enter this new domain and build something specifically for r and d, both track discovery and development.

So that was my, my eventual preach to AI and, and data science. Um. And, and that has actually led to intelligentsia. Ai. Um, so one of the recurring themes of my work back in the day, and obviously these days, has been r and d productivity. So ever since I remember myself in the space, like since, you know, uh, two thousand nine thousand ten, um, RT productivity has been declining.

Um. And one of the, one of the key themes that you see, especially with larger companies, is that in a way it’s still r and d is a lot about portfolio management, portfolio strategy. You make bets, uh. On, on multiple tracks, on multiple programs at any given time. And you have to make decisions on which things to advance, what things to accelerate, uh, what programs sometimes to decelerate or, you know, trials that you discontinue and so on and so forth.

And, and people typically do an ENPV risk, astic, NPV analysis on this. Um. But my experience was consistently underwhelming in the sense that when it comes to risk, which is at the core, at the heart of drug discovery and drug development, like we all make bets and big bets, and that’s why those bets are rewarded through IP and and protected prices and so on and so forth.

But when you make these bets and you think about risk. There is not necessarily much science going into this. Uh, so I haven’t, I hadn’t seen very robust frameworks of how to define the risk. Um. Uh, I was working a lot in due diligences and m and a and portfolio strategy and commercial strategy as well.

And, and every time we’re going through the exercise, you know, we’re relying on historical benchmarks and obviously calling experts and, and creating something semi quantitative. But even at that times, often, you know, the, the people who say CRA here in the room actually would come in and apply their own, um.

Intuition, their own judgment and, and often almost throw out of the window, even this semi quant analysis. Um, so yeah, when I was exposed to more AI and other science applications, I thought that could be, uh, one of the holy trails, the space that can be addressed in a more appropriate way, um, through these emerging technologies and.

And that was the initial bet on intelligence. And that is the core of what we still do. We’re the first company to apply, uh, productized, uh, approach on addressing proba or assessing probability of success with machine learning, with predictive modeling, uh, we take a host of, um. Features or aspects into account?

Uh, we have a patent technology. Uh, we have accuracy that has been prospectively validated for several years. Um, obviously we’re not a hundred percent accurate and we’ll never be. Uh, but I do trust that we. Provide a very good, robust, consistent triangulation method, uh, for decision makers out there. And that’s why we are being trusted by, uh, a lot of the large pharma.

Like we’re working now with more than 10 of the top 20 parts, pharma, uh, and also with the host of Meat Cup, Liz. Less often with smaller biotech. Uh, both because of our business model, which is mostly software as a service. So it’s, you know, carrying access to a product that, that tends better to, you know, larger portfolios.

Um,

but also, you know, if you’re a biotech, you kind of live and die. Hmm. By your, based on your decisions of development track, right, exactly. You have to maximize it times for these, uh, one or two drugs, uh, more than decide on how to calibrate your portfolio. Yeah,

Naji Gehchan: yeah. So in your, in your work and your help, obviously, like this is an ultimate important, uh, problem to solve for, you know, probability of technical su uh, success of the trial decision making between different prioritization.

So your work is a cross portfolio, or, or how do you optimize actually the PTS because. There is the, uh, probability of success there is. I’m sure you’re faced with several questions on efficiency of the trial’s, productivity, the length of enrollment, and then like all the execution of the trial. Like I’d love to understand what is the main focus you’re doing, uh, through your patented technology, uh, and what are you thinking for next steps of improvement, uh, of drug development?

Dimitrios Skaltsas: Yeah. So we took, uh, a more high level, more strategic approach where we say, okay, let’s try in this to define probability of technical and regulatory. Well, let’s, uh, let’s train a model where the objective function is with this program. Actually receive FDA approval down the line, be. Nine years from now or be, you know, nine months from now, depending on which phase, uh, the program is.

Um, and then we gathered a lot of historical data and we create, we engineered features and, and we train models that could apply pattern recognition. Stronger partner organism, what with humans apply with more data than what we typically humans have. And, and, and differentiate problems between more likely to succeed, less likely to succeed, right?

And apply a specific probability. So that’s how we started. And then over time what we did is we have been, uh, become stronger also in the phase transition. Probably this, which is more of the. Technical success and also providing visibility into the underlying drivers that will help people also be more, um, prescriptive if you.

Interact with like, how can I improve my probability of success at the asset level by changing things that I can change? Not your question. Uh, we are, how are we planning to expand the one is more sensitivity, more what ifs, scenario planning, like invest more into the prescriptive part of the equation.

Like how can you. Prove probability of success at the asset level and at the program level. Um, the other thing is more broadly, if you think about portfolio strategy, um, one expansion has been ongoing in terms of therapeutic carriers, like we started oncology, then we move to immunology, inflammation, CNS, now metabolics, cardiovascular, renal.

But we still haven’t covered everything out there like. For instance, we’re going after Infectious Disease Index and so on and so forth. The other one is, um, geographic expansion. We started with the US FDA, we cover a lot of, uh, EMA. We are venturing out China, which has become increasingly relevant for innovation.

Um. The other thing is functionality wise, you know, we realized at some point we, we were forced to create a very clean, high quality summary level clinical development data set. Which, if you ask me, I think it, it, it’s likely to be the best, uh, exists right now in the space. ’cause we’re trying to. Feed the algorithms in a very proper way to solve these, uh, specific problems.

Right on this crown, our sponsors, school, our partners, our customers have all. Quite often been pushing us on developing more things, more functionalities. So now for instance, we have been developing, uh, something around target product profiles. Uh, we have been developing some functionalities on, you know, more broadly, track development insights and, and executive level landscapes.

Um. We have been, um, exploring more broadly NPV analysis. So we’re not the experts ’cause we don’t bring all the elements there, but that’s, that’s how we expect. Typically we get feedback from, uh, or gently push from, uh, one of our, um, customers. We test it with others and if there is need. If there’s market for that and if we think we can be best in class in what we do, then we venture into that.

Naji Gehchan: Well, one of the things, Dimitrius, as you were giving, why you started the company, uh, I, I wanna understand also and get your view as you have built now the company is, you said like some folks. We’ll throw out even the semi quant analysis and go with their gut and, and we hear it, right? Like I’m in drug development for a while now.

Like we all say, like there’s an art to it, there is science to it. There is different aspects that we look, but there is this human decision making that several of us actually enjoy and like, so I’m interested during this journey. There’s, I’m sure a piece of change management that you help the companies.

Get to as you bring a more data driven approach that is based o out of the models. Do you have any examples? ’cause I’ve seen several times, as you said, like all the data would show something, but then someone still believes that our intuition is stronger than data. Like how, how do you manage the art of data with the scientific and medical intuition?

Dimitrios Skaltsas: I’ll, um, I’ll address this in two ways. I’ll go in two directions. The first one is that when we started, you know, one of our values is humility, like being grounded, but still, when we started having a powerful tool in your hands, like ai, um. Sometimes we felt, oh, we we’re getting it right. Like no, uh, we’re getting more right than everyone else.

And sometimes there is also a validating this, but there has been a mindset shift, like the more you work with the people on the ground, the more you realize you ought to be a decision support tool. Like your, my role, our technology’s role is provide insights. For people like you to make better decisions, like, um, apply your own intuition or run the dialogue internally in, in a more data driven way, so.

With that in mind, um, the way we quite often work with our users is even large companies often don’t necessarily have a specific, um. Uh, process around p you will see that the ownership, uh, is, is quite different from one company to the other. You’ll see that workflows, uh, they may not even exist or when they exist, they, they run a different way.

Uh, what I have seen work. Increasingly well our process where it’s a mix of one, they, they’re cross al like it’s. There, there are multiple people coming together to, to actually inform those decisions, even if ultimately it’s one person making those decisions. But there are multiple people involved in the process, often owned by like the recommendation owned by the program managers, but not necessarily.

Um, and then it’s typically a mix of historical benchmarks. And I’ve seen again, companies that use not none or rely on papers. White papers or external papers, commands that use three or four historical benchmarks. You see all the, all the spectrum there. But typically there is some baselining that can be done with historical benchmark.

This base line is informed then triangulated by what we do, um, more. Data achievement, more smart approach. And then there’s a dialogue where either it can be done around some heuristics. Some companies have heuristic or create heuristics where they say, you know, we’ll use those heuristics to apply, uh, or to, yeah, to apply our own infusion and, and, um, change the pt, the PTS or PTs, up or down.

Um. Or sometimes, you know, we help inform those heuristics because we have our own drivers who have the explainability so that people can go inside the system and say, oh, you know, it’s, uh, 25% and it’s driven by this, this, and that. Actually, we do not believe that, you know, these drivers should have that much influence because we know our track better and we think that, yeah, the MA has not been, um.

Validated so far, but, uh, we know a bit better because we have some more data. So this should not be a minus two, it should be a plus three. Right? Uh, so that’s, that’s how it works. And then still people, yeah, people actually will apply. Sometimes still people will, uh, have the tendency to throw this out of the window, but listen less.

I, I see the. See the industry is more and more hungry on, it has always been hungry on data, but it’s more and more hungry on, you know, systematic approaches. And the more we get validated on this specific niche, for instance, the more the, there’s word of mouth. It’s like, okay, you know, we can do it is a bit more systematic.

But always people will ultimate rely on their own intuition. You’ll never get away from that. And, uh, I’m not sure that. We should, like ultimately, you know, there are decision makers and, and people who have honed their skill, uh, in a way that our machines, I think we’re still far away from.

Naji Gehchan: And I know how you framed it, right?

Like providing insights to make better decisions, like keeping, uh, there, there is still a place for intuition and art in all those, uh, models. Like, because it’s, uh, being smarter in the way we do our decisions rather than anything else. And, and I know you’re, we’re, we’re talking about art. I know you are.

You love art, you paint, and I would love to, uh, you know, like open, uh, my last questions about. Painting the Greek countryside, this is how you spend most of your time. How, how do these passions influence your leadership and your, your personal decision making?

Dimitrios Skaltsas: Yeah. Uh, I’ve never thought about how they influence my leadership.

Uh uh, yeah. If I start with painting, I love painting. I love drawing. Uh, like these days I will, uh. You know, when I do paint or show half the time, I will be painting. People I know, uh, and often write because, because, you know, you, you focus on someone. If I start focusing on painting you, then it feels like you start to know the other person better.

Like you, you start connecting emotionally with them and, and trying of unpeeling their own personality, their own characters, their own emotion. So I love that part. And there are half the times I’m just throwing. Colors on, on big canvases, and it’s more of the art that I would do when I was seven or eight years old, like abstract art, uh, which is very creative because it’s open-ended.

Uh, the one makes me focus a lot. The other one, um, it’s very open-ended and maybe that, that that’s the linkage to leadership. Like I think.

At least in my case, but it applies more broadly, uh, leadership of a function of a company, of a team, of anything is, is it’s both about having the ability to, you know, take a few steps back and, you know, uh, look at the broader picture in a more relaxed way. Ideally, uh, and, and do some idea generation, um, and, and also at the same time be able to connect with the people, understand the people you are working with, um, inspire, get inspired.

That’s, that goes both ways, uh, and, and go also sometimes into the details, like the things. Um, and I do less and less of the latter, which is relaxing to me, like avoiding sometimes going the details. But building a company quite often, you, you, you still a little bit a plumber, uh. I remember like we’re now in the eighth year, we’re about a hundred people strong and definitely we have a very strong, nice, mature, in many ways, leadership team, but sometimes still things will, you know.

Fall and or be orphan like, you know, something new will come up and no one is responsible. And you have to, you have to be the ultimate protector to come in. Like the person will go in, solve it and make sure next time, you know, there’s a better way for this to be done. Um. Yeah,

Naji Gehchan: I love it. Uh, what is the first word that comes to mind when you hear the word, uh, leadership?

Actually,

Dimitrios Skaltsas: uh, what I often tell to, to my team members is. Like, for instance, we had a person who, who got promoted now, and, and I recall in our discussion, the first thing I told him is, you know, this is about being servant leader. This means that you have more responsibilities over our team members now and external world, uh, than before.

It doesn’t mean that you ask more people from more things from them. It means that. People will expect more from you and I’ll expect more from you. Um, I think it’s, it ties back to responsibility in my mind. Leadership is, uh. Being able to take responsibility, enjoy it ideally. So I think people who thrive in leaders’ roles are people who enjoy responsibility in building, but also even when you don’t enjoy, and there are times where, you know, responsibility can’t fall quite heavy on our shoulders.

Um, you know, you, you’ll bear with it. You’ll make sacrifices. Um. It’s, yeah, that’s, that’s what I think about leaders taking responsibility, conserving others.

Naji Gehchan: What about, um, the first thing comes to mind when you hear clinical trials,

Dimitrios Skaltsas: uh. Uh, expensive and a, and a blessing because often people outside our space, outside our industry, uh, don’t realize why.

You know, we have to run these very well regulated, uh, again, long and expensive, uh, process. Um, I think it’s a blessing that, you know, our societies have come up with this process where we ultimately protect, uh, the patients, uh, what translates, or, you know, what applies well and preclinical. Settings quite often doesn’t translate as expected into human biology.

So I think it’s really good that we have this gated approach. Um, I do think there are many opportunities to get faster, better, stronger, um, and, and we see it happening. Like I think COVID was. It was very interesting in helping us see that there can be different part times of, you know, accelerating innovation.

Um, uh, yeah. I, I think it will be, and I’m glad that it will be eventually, um, really, really long process until we get there. And because it means, uh, you know, pe it still stays well regulated and people don’t take. Too many experiments. I think we ought to experiment and learn and apply technology. That’s what we do.

Um, uh, you know, you have to test things first and, and then things,

Naji Gehchan: well, talking about technology, the third word is ai. Poof.

Dimitrios Skaltsas: You know, it’s in our name, so we cannot escape it. And it’s in our technology. I mean, that’s. In many ways that’s, that’s what we stand for. Um, okay, let me see. It’s an opportunity, it’s a huge opportunity for humanity, for life sciences, for all of us.

Even the person who live. Um, it can, it can help generate a lot of efficiencies, a lot of productivity, uh, unlock our minds and how we do things. It’s risk is, um, it can be a major risk again to. Humanity. I think if, you know, we, um, we don’t apply some appropriate frameworks and ethics and, uh, and discipline into how we do ai.

Um, and that’s long term. I think also in the medium short term, it’s risky in the sense that, uh, you know, we get more and more. Familiarize with those technologies and if we don’t, if we’re not careful enough, they can mislead us like special generative ai. It still hallucinates. I know. You know, it gets better and better and better.

Specialist CP five that was just released. I play a bit with it. It does hallucinate less than the past, but it does hallucinate and, and I see myself where I use a lot of same AI in my, my daily life. Sometimes I forget to apply limits. I, I get too comfortable with it, uh, until I have a reality awakening or that whoa, uh.

Yeah, I think it’s, overall, I think it’s, it’s a blessing. Like most technologies, it can be very, uh, it can be very risky if not applied, of course, in the proper way.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. Goes back as, as you said, like any technology to the ethics. Integrity and how you use it. Uh, and if you’re using it for good, but it’s, uh, I love how you started it.

It, it is an opportunity for humanity, uh, as several of the advances in life sciences too, uh, that, that are blessing. But if well used the last word is, uh, spread love and organizations.

Dimitrios Skaltsas: It, it is what inspired me to, to come to the podcast. Um.

I think it’s about caring, which again, is one of our values. Um, it’s how you we care about,

about the people and about the organization. And I would say it. It’s different by the context, by the by,

by the level of maturity or by the states are Wes. The organization needs, uh, love for me was very different when we’re. A couple of people in the organization. I was in love with the idea. I was in love with the concept. Uh, and everything was frozen, by the way ’cause we didn’t have too much responsibilities back then.

And then it was different when we were 10 or 15 people. Then I had a very strong instinct of, um. Being in a crew, like almost in a wolf pack. Uh, and I, and I felt this, this love over, over, not necessarily what we do, but over the team. I’m like, you know, we, we need to succeed. We need to protect each other.

We need to take care of each other and grow together. And it’s different now that we a hundred people where, um,

it’s.

Speaker 3: You

Dimitrios Skaltsas: know, it’s a lot of caring for the people, obviously the people that we started with, but also more of the newcomers, but in a different way. ’cause I don’t even know them. Some of them personally, like I know them by never having to. But it’s more about making sure, you know, they have the appropriate career paths and they can grow and they can get opportunities, and they can have a quality of life that fits them, so on and so forth.

Uh, but in a more impersonal level. And it’s also care obviously about the, the customers and what we deliver. So we’re getting closer and closer by the years with our actual users because. You, you know, our work is such that when I think of impact, I’m like, you know, there is this broad impact in the space where we can make this help make the space more product more efficient, so ultimately get better drugs patients faster.

But in our daily reality, we interact with our. Users and much of the energy, much of the reward, the emotional reward we get is by, you know, how we help our users. Uh. Have a better life, like be more productive, their work, be smarter in their work, have better outcomes, and so on and so forth. Um, and caring about the organization as well, like, uh, shareholders.

Uh, I would compete. It’s, it’s a more multifaceted love, I would say, but practical, I think love. Always to be practical, like expressed in, uh, through our contact, through our actions, uh, and, uh, typically translation to care.

Naji Gehchan: Uh, that’s, that’s a great definition, uh, about caring leadership and, uh, love in organizations.

Any final word of wisdom, uh, Demetrius for healthcare leaders around the world.

Dimitrios Skaltsas: I was, I was listening to some other podcast, um, you had, and I was always inspired by that part. Uh, I thought, before I call, the one word that came in my mind is prevention, which is not what we do. It’s very different. But I’m like, if I think about healthcare and life sciences.

I think the world would be a better place if we collectively exercise, invest more in prevention, in how we avoid having to take certain drugs, um, get, go to the hospital, see our, um, see physician or ZP, so on so forth. Like if. It goes back again to where I started. Again, my roots like more of the social public sector, but like if you can incentivize people, society, uh, and, and educate.

People in society and create the right mechanism. Systems, we’re in process where, you know, we can eat better, we can sleep better, we can uh, we can go to our GP earlier and, and make exams and test ourselves and, and yeah, avoid getting, uh, sick, um, to the extent that’s possible, right? It’s in many cases will not be possible, but yeah, eventually.

Naji Gehchan: Well, I feel there’s a new venture that might be building up, uh, for prevention. I’m, I’m all in for it with you. Well, thank you so much again. Thank you so much for being with me today. It was, uh, a great chat and, uh, again, a huge, uh, kudos to all that you’re building and you’re doing to help, um, all of the pharma and biotech world, uh, bring innovations to patients faster.

There is certainly a lot to be done still in the healthcare world. So thank you for much for all that you do,

Dimitrios Skaltsas: Azi. Thank you. Uh, pleasure connect with you and thanks for, you know, creating these, uh. Podcast and, and ground for, for this type of discussion.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you. Thanks for listening to the show. More episodes.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

I am Naji your host, joined today by John Bamforth for the launch of his book: Race to Innovation. John grew up in Wigan, England and studied at the University of Bath and Aston University, earning a phd in neuropharmacology. He joined Eli Lilly in 1989, building global brands and leading diverse teams after moving to the U.S. in 2001. Most recently he completed 6 years with Eshelman Innovation at UNC-Chapel Hill, helping turn breakthrough ideas into real-world patient solutions. I had the pleasure to know John for years now and he was my very first guest on the show 4 years ago!

John P Bamforth: Great to be back. Naji.

Naji Gehchan: Uh, well, I certainly recommend folks to listen to your story on our first episode, John. Uh, but why don’t you share with us again, through the lens of the past four years and a little bit of the craziness, uh, in the, in the word and how the word changed since the last episode we recorded during the pandemic.

Actually, uh, can you tell us a little bit more like a brief story about who you are and where you are today?

John P Bamforth: Yeah, sure. Um, well, Naji, you know me well, um. I, uh, had 30 years, as you say, at Lilly and then moved to the, moved back to academia, which was quite, quite a journey in itself. Um, and moved back to early stage science, right?

So we were in the institute and I literally just finished the six year stint there. You know, we were developing early stage therapeutics. Um, so very different to my role at Lilly and, and also digital health companies. So. That was a great experience. Uh, um, a great experience for six years working back within, you know, we were, we were embedded in the number one school of pharmacy in the country.

Um, and, you know, it was, it, you know, it was really, um, so about the time that we last talked, I mean, it was, it was around that point in time that, uh, everything happened with George Floyd, um, and, uh, and his murder. That caused Roy, who’s the co-author of the book, Roy as well, and I, to pause a little bit, um, there was a lot of, as we all remember, there was a lot of back and forth at that time around, uh, race and, and everything associated with race and, and a lot of reflection.

And Roy and my reflection was, you know, this is a community, the African American community that, that, uh, we know. Um, to a degree. I mean, I’m, at the end of the day, I’m still a Brit right at heart. Uh, and so I, I was still in my learning journey about the African American experience here in the us but you know, that we knew enough that, you know, the African American community has a really rich history in innovation entrepreneurship that in some cases not many people know.

And so, um, we, we decided to, to dig in, uh, to, to do a little bit more research. And, uh, out of that came the book, right? And, uh. The books got dives deep into the African American community, but we believe this is a story that applies to many un underrepresented communities. In the US We always say, including white, rural America.

Um, this is not about the color of your skin. This is about marginalized communities. And I think, and you and I have this global experience, I think this has application outside the US as well.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah, it certainly does. And you know, I loved how you frame it between your incredible journey career that you had, your roots as you also shared last time, and you said you’re bit by heart.

Um, and also what has happened, uh, through the last, through the last year is it’s kind of culminated, it seems in this book. Right. So tell us more about trace to innovation.

John P Bamforth: Yeah. So, um, you know, we di I think, as I say, we took. Um, the research was really to understand the history of innovation within the Afri African American community, um, which is a long and storied history, pulling out individual stories, you know, uh, uh, Madam CJ Walker is a great example because it has a, a connection for, for us in Indianapolis as well.

’cause she, that’s where she ended up with her business. You know, the first African American female millionaire. In the US and then we interviewed a whole host of current day innovators and, and entrepreneurs and told their story in the book and, and we came out with five domains that we think are important, encouraging communities like the African-American community.

’cause our high level premise, this is not a de and i book. This is a business book. Okay. The premise of the book is. If we encourage these types of communities and support these types of communities to innovate and become entrepreneurs, there is a benefit to all of us. This is not a zero sum game, so the majority doesn’t lose.

If we encourage these communities to innovate, we all win, and I think that’s probably the most important message from the book. And there’s a lot of debate right now in the US and frankly outside the US as well, is that. There’s a lot of discussion about immigration. There’s a lot of discussion about, um, different communities and, and some of the, some of the concepts are, you know, people, these people are coming to take our jobs.

Our bias is completely different in the book. Our belief is completely different. We believe both from a community perspective and economically, that if we encourage innovation, entrepreneurship in these communities, it benefits all of us.

Naji Gehchan: So, John, let’s start, uh, and I want to go there, uh, because it’s, it’s a key out output that you have, um, about all thriving together. So I wanna go there, but before that, can you define how you’re thinking about innovation in the book? Like, it’s a word obviously, that everyone uses, like think of, et cetera, but how, how do you define innovation?

John P Bamforth: Yeah, it’s a great question. You know, my, my friend innovation is, uh, probably a little simple. Um, you know, for me, and it, it goes probably back to, to our days at Lilly, you know, innovation to me are, are novel solutions to, you know, uh, really challenging problems. Um, that’s one of the benefits, um, of, um, the joys of diverse thinking, particularly on teams, right?

I mean, you and I had the pleasure of working together at Lilly on some very diverse teams. Um, global teams, you know, the, our work together on, on Seattle back in the day, you know, we had people from all over the world on that team, right? We had people from Japan, we had people from Portugal, we had people from, when I say those countries, you’re thinking of the people I know.

Exactly. Because we all knew. We all knew who I’m talking about. It’s all about people. It’s all about people. But those teams, um, we didn’t pull those teams together. Because we wanted, you know, different countries and different, you know, colored skin. We pulled together those teams for the talent, right? We, we pulled in the most talented people we could find from around the world to enable our success.

And when we got that team together, and, and you and I know that team still talks today, we’re, I think the, we’re talking about like 2003, 2004. That team still talks today, like almost daily, right? Almost daily. I’m texting those same people like usually every week in some way, shape or form. And the reason that team is so tight is the quality of innovation and, and business acumen that that team brought to the table.

’cause everybody had a different view, right? Every had a different lens on the problems we were dealing with. Everybody had different, uh, ideas of how we could solve those problems. That was respected within the team, right? We’d argue sometimes and, and have all those arguments, but nonetheless, the, and, and it delivered amazing outcomes, right?

And I think that’s the richness that we’re trying to pull out with the book is, look, we’ve got, you know, one of the first principles we talk about in the book is, um, uh, recognized potential. So, so believe there is potential in every individual that comes in front of you, no matter what their background is.

Assume potential is the way we describe it, assume potential. And there are some great examples in the book of, of, of individuals that we’ve talked about in that frame. But if you go in there with that mentality of no matter what background that person comes from, African-American, whatever, Lebanese, um, assume potential, assume that they’re gonna bring value to the table.

It’s just gonna, it may represent itself in a bit of a different way, right.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah, certainly. And I can of course attest to all those stories with Cialis and, but you know, John, like, as you were talking about it, which is very true, and we kept being a tight community either growing within the company or now, like that’s very spread.

You know, as I joined was my first job in the, you know, in corporate it, it, it felt so natural. As I grew in roles and leadership, I realized that it’s not actually, you have to be intentional about it and have those core beliefs in humanity, basically. And so, so you’ve done it, like you’ve done it through a leading career.

You’ve done it also, uh, through leading innovation in academic ways. Like is there, is there a formula? Like can you get people believe in that and do it? Because we discussed several times the scarcity of this, so I’m, I’m, I’m sure within your book it’s kind of a recipe for those aspiring to do that, but in a word where potentially we’re seeing more, you know, like people fearing one another rather than embracing our differences to thrive together.

Like what is your message of hope and how to do that?

John P Bamforth: I, I actually don’t think it’s very hard to do. I just think it’s not done very often. Um, and, you know, uh, we’ve probably talked about it before, we may even talked about it in the last podcast, but, you know, I’m a great believer in, uh, what Daniel Pink describes in this book drive because I think it’s the essence of building this, the sort of culture that we’re talking about.

And, you know, he talks really about three things. He talks about, you know, humans, humans like to learn, they like to feel like they’re growing, right? And so asking people in a team, you know, what is the, what is the big audacious goal for themselves as individuals? What, what is the, what are they trying to achieve in life?

You know, it’s surprising how few times people are asked that question, right? What do you, what do you wanna do with your life? Right? So that knowledge piece is important. Um, the other thing he talks about is autonomy. So the feeling that you’re in control of what you’re doing within your job and that you, people trust you to go do the right thing.

Again, it’s, that’s an infrequent thing. You know, people, everybody talks about micromanagers and our whole nine yards, right? So many times people don’t trust their employees to, to do the right thing. So autonomy’s really important. And then this, the last piece that Daniel talks about in the book is, is that purpose piece, right?

That vision of something. You know, when we were doing Cialis, you know, we had, we won’t go into the details, but you know, we had a audacious goal that we all bought into and nobody believed outside the team that it could be done, but we did. We believed it could be done and we achieved it and surprised everybody that that knew us, that we would that, but we believed that we could do it as a team, we’re like, okay, they don’t think we can do it.

We do. We’re gonna go do it. Right? And sure enough, we built, you know, the number one brand in the category. That’s what we wanted to do. No, we believe we could do it, but we did. And that, you know, that that purpose piece bonded us together and we had a ton of fun with it as we were doing it right.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah.

Yeah. And, and you know, like I, I, obviously we talked about this and I, I thought a lot about it. O of course the purpose is so important, but I would go back also to what you started with. It had like, purpose, you know, as I thought about it, and basically when we discussed me studying this podcast four years ago, and the name of Spread Love, right?

In organizations you have the purpose, the vision, the, the values. They need to be here and need to be aligned. And, and then what you just said about trust, like for me that was the piece I think that you led and that a lot of us now leaders aspire to lead teams that way. Where you build this genuine care of a community here together to achieve this bigger purpose and, and you’re mixing it with diversity.

Obviously, as you said, that was one of your core beliefs since the beginning. Um, that, that made a difference, right? Like this genuine care for one another. And it’s funny, like this is why we stay connected, right? Like we generally believe that we can achieve something big, but we generally believe that we can do it together.

Yeah. And there’s a place for all of us and you know, like we care for one another and this is why we keep on calling one another. Actually,

John P Bamforth: no, I, it’s funny ’cause uh, you know, I’ve got a copy of the book. Um. So, you know, this came out with a dialogue with Roy and I, right? So, hey, this is really interesting.

We should do some research here. Maybe we should write a book. Oh, that’s a good idea. Maybe we should write, have you ever written a book? No, I’ve never written a book. I do that. I have no idea. I have no idea how we write a book. But let’s, why don’t we go try, right, let, so again, I’m going back to this vision police, like how are we gonna do it?

I don’t know. But we, we will work it out, right? We’ll work it out. There’s a, there, there are three. The reason I hold up the book, there are, um, there are three contributing authors in here. There’s a, you can see it, but there are three, three faces in the book here, three contributors. And it was really interesting how those three individuals came in, came, became part of the project.

Um, Maya, uh, Maya Fitzgerald, um, is a pharm d student at the school. She, she, uh, connected with me on LinkedIn. Before she even came to the school and she said, I’ve read about the institute. It seems really cool. I’ve done some work in biotech already. Are there any, are there any roles that I can do within the institute?

And, uh, she’s Maya’s a bundle of energy. In fact, she’s, she’s already had two internships at Accompany You, and I know quite well you leading company, but Maya, Maya did a lot of the early research, a lot of the kind of bench research on the book. As soon as she arrived at the school and got super excited about the whole thing, dove in and has been part of the project all the way through.

Um, Ashley Thomas, um, uh, we hired from the School of Medicine. Um, she was an individual that, um, in the, when we first hired her, I think all the jobs she’d had to this point, she’d just been kind of just do the job. If we don’t need to know who you are, just do the job. And when she came to the institute, we slowly but surely pulled out.

We, you know, we asked in one of the early conversations, I said to her, ’cause she told me a few things about her, but she was still a little reticent to share too much. And Ashley’s African American, um, her stories in the book as well as being a contributor, but she had a interest in, um, gardening. She had turned around the lives of her grandparents by getting them onto health.

They were both dying from chronic illnesses and she’d given up college to go support them and help. She thought she was gonna help them through a passage to a, a premature death. But when she got there, she realized what was going on. They were eating highly processed food, poor food. They were in a, essentially in a, in a food desert.

She completely changed their diet. Oh, wow. And got them onto a healthy path and then went back to college. Wow. And so that, that drove a real interest in this, this frame of healthy eating, gardening, et cetera. Lo and behold, she tells me in one of the first dialogues, well, actually I have an online, I have an online presence.

Um, I’m, I’m the mocha gardener and I’m just about to publish a book on gardening. I’m like, what? What? Um, and so, you know, we tell her story in the book, but we, we pulled her onto the team, right? She comes from the community. She had a passion for what we were talking about. And so she came onto the team.

And then finally, Ruben Blackwell, who’s, uh, an amazing leader from, uh, from the African American community here in North Carolina runs a, um, a whole system in Rocky Mount. Rocky Mount in North Carolina was a tobacco. Town. Um, and then when, when tobacco, uh, the tobacco industry became less profitable, what Ruben always says is All the white folks left and left us all we had.

Right. And so it’s a, a very, um, uh, a very black town in North Carolina. Ruben runs, um, a federally qualified health center and some entrepreneurial, uh, activities in, in Rocky Mountain. And Reuben has a long history. Uh, we going all the way back to Martin Luther King. So having somebody like Reuben who has the history, uh, of, you know, the struggle Yeah.

Of the African American community, having him advises on the book has been super valuable. His story’s in the book too. Um, so, so, you know that, that team, long-winded answer, but that team has come to, came together with this, again, going back to what we talked about with this vision of what we were trying to do with the book, which is change the frame of how people think.

About people with different backgrounds. Right?

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. And, and I wanna go back to that. ’cause one of, uh, as you said, one of the key takeaways, uh, you’re, you’re really framing in the book is those difference can help us make a difference, not just in how we all live together, but in how we all thrive together.

So can you tell us, can you tell us a little bit more about, about how you view this?

John P Bamforth: Yeah. Uh, again. One is this openness to, uh, believing that everybody who walks into the room brings value, right? Brings value to the dialogue. But it’s also this frame of, um, you know, a lot of these communities and I, and I, I, we like to talk about rural white America.

As an, as an unrepresented community, because it, first of all, ’cause it is, you know, we did, we’ve done a lot of work with the institute up in Western North Carolina, up in Asheville, um, because we were doing some innovation work, uh, in the opioid space and, you know, the, the epicenter of the opioid crisis in North Carolina is up in Appalachia, up in, up in Asheville.

And they had the, the best insights into that problem. We built a, we built a very successful digital health company to solve some of the problems associated with opioid overdose that was built from the insights of that community. Right? So it’s just a great example of saying, look, the, these communities bring insights to problems that others don’t.

The majority probably haven’t had the experience, like nobody in route, nobody. People in Raleigh have experienced the opioid crisis than Western North Carolina. So surprise, surprise, because they’re dealing with that problem every day. They have the best insights to solve the problem, right? So go. All you are doing is you wander in there, is you’re pulling out those insights, those, those solutions that they already kinda know, right?

And you’re helping them bring it forward. So that frame, frame of thriving is, you know, let’s listen to people. Right. Let, let’s assume good. Uh, let’s assume potential, and let’s assume that by working together we can solve some of the most intractable problems that we have in our society. Um, it’s just a different frame on how to go about engaging with people.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. That’s a beautiful charge, I think for all of us, uh, to just. Assume those things, assume good, assume potential, and working together to solve big, complex problems. Uh, but I have to ask you, jb, why and how you wrote this book.

John P Bamforth: Um, the why, uh, first of all, there’s a, there’s a, there’s certainly an African American lens on this.

You know, the, the, I’ve spent 24 years here in the US now still learning about. The African American experience here in the US which is, is, is has some interesting history. In fact, we’re off to, um, we’re off to Tulsa next week to, to Greenwood to launch, launch the book. And, you know, to launch, it’s a privilege to launch the book down there.

’cause Greenwood has a rich history, right? It was Black Wall Street. We use, we, we use that example in the book to say, look at the speed of growth. Entrepreneurship that happened in Greenwood as it grew, unfortunately, to the point where people didn’t like the speed of growth, right? There were, that’s why it was burnt to the ground, because of the speed, um, and the, the scale of success that, that was happening in Greenwood.

But, um, highlighting for me the, the, the African American experience. Just as an example, right? Just an example of what’s possible and, you know, tell some of the untold stories around what, you know, the contribution that the African American communities made. ’cause it, you know, I, I’m, I’m blessed to have a lot of friends in that community and certainly at this point in time, it’s probably easier for me to tell that story and it is for that, um, ’cause a strange English guy can go talk about these things where sometimes they may not be able to talk about it.

Right. But then to say, okay, that’s just an example, but let’s now open the aperture to say, how about if you apply, apply this idea of the potential of these communities to the US as a whole, to all of these communities that we’ve talked about. And then even the globe, right? There’s too much, you know, we all, we’re all looking at these conflicts going on around the world, you know, in your home country, in, you know, in the Middle East, in Ukraine.

You name it. Right? Um, you’ve gotta find a way of being counterbalance to that, right? To say, you know, you can look at your enemy and assume they are your enemy. Or you can look at somebody and say, again, assume potential, assume that you could maybe have a different relationship with that individual, right?

And, and I, I think we want. The book to be a, you know, a counterbalance to a lot of the negativity that surround that surrounds us right now.

Naji Gehchan: And we, we certainly need that. We certainly need that, and I’m looking forward to reading it. Uh, John, you, I, I, it’s hard to like segue into this next section, but I’ll do it.

Um, you know, this one where I’ll give you a word and you’re gonna give me a reaction. Uh, two words are the same. So we will, you know, we’ll see if it changed within four years. The first one is leadership.

John P Bamforth: Um. Again, the, the, the word that springs to mind is opportunity.

Naji Gehchan: What about, you talked about innovation. I have to bring this, uh, trendy word these days. Ai,

John P Bamforth: um, you know, again, it’s scary ’cause it’s the same words coming to mind. Opportunity, um, you know, um. Risk benefit is the other phrase that springs to mind. I mean, the, the upside is almost endless, but you’ve already seen it be used in, in less than positive ways.

So endless opportunity, but plenty of risk.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. Yeah. And I love how like, you’re, you’re framing it. I’ve been thinking about, um, about this, right? Like as a. A tool. And unfortunately like, you know, you have so many tools that can be used for good or for bad and destruction. So it goes back to people, right?

And the culture you build, you build. So what about humanity?

John P Bamforth: Um, good question. Beauty is the, is the word that springs to mind. Um, you know, we see a lot of things in the press these days, but my lived experience of humanity is very different. If I think about the, you know, I think about this week alone, you know, I came back from the UK after being over there for a month and I spent the week meeting people right.

For a variety of different reasons. Um. I think every one of those experiences has been a, a really positive one. So in my mind, you know, I think there’s so much negativity when you, you pick up these things these days and look at social media and everything else. The reality is different. Humanity is very, the, the reality of dealing, talking to people every day is a completely different experience to the one you believe to be the truth when you, when you’re looking at the phone.

Right?

Naji Gehchan: Yes. Yeah. The last one, you know, is spread love in organizations.

John P Bamforth: Yeah. Well, you and I know, um, from our, uh, shared experience and we talked about one of our favorite teams earlier. Um, you know, I, I think about the, you know, I’m thinking about one particular friend right now, um, who, who’s, uh, stepson, um, in the last six weeks, um, had a.

An accident in a, around a, a lake in Indiana and passed and died, um, way too young. And uh, obviously the family’s really struggling with that right now. And, and I think the only thing, um, you can do in that situation is support. And I think, you know, for me, that’s a work, you know, this is somebody who used to work for me, right?

Uh, back in the day, back at Lilly. Um, but, uh, you know, for me, the relationship I have with that individual is, has always been very deep. And, you know, you, this is the time where you’ve gotta step up for somebody, um, because they, that’s the family that’s in real need right now. And, and I, I think being there for people in those times is super important, right?

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. Yeah. And you’ve always demonstrated that, you know, and this is part of. Love and being here for one another when it’s needed, and it goes beyond the job. And I can attest to that, John, you know, like how you’ve, you’ve been here with me and you know, I’m, I’m here with you. And it’s certainly something we, um, we all aspire to be as leaders, uh, being here for one another.

Any final word of wisdom, uh, John for leaders around the world?

John P Bamforth: Yeah, so I’d say, you know, um. I would hope people get a chance to read the book. Um, and, and the reason why is I hope people, um, take a moment to think about the world and think about different communities in the world in a bit of a different way.

Now, there is way too much tension, uh, wrapped up in the us, wrapped up in other parts of the world. There’s, there’s a lot of real value. By being open to people that aren’t, that don’t look like you, um, you know, working in global organizations, you get that all the time. Um, and, uh, you know, you, we were, I think, blessed to have those global experiences to, to know somebody from, from the Lebanon, to know somebody from Italy, to know somebody from Japan, and, you know, to come live in the us You know, you and I are both immigrants.

To live in the US for a period of time and know, come to know the United States as a, you know, the beauty of the United States, which we see a lot of negativity around that going on right now. You know, that’s the United States or the, the, the US experience has been a great one for me and I’m blessed to have had that.

Um, but we, we’ve gotta be open to every community and not just leap to negativity.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you, uh, so much, John, for being again with me on uh, on this show and being with me today. Uh, we will certainly have your book on this podcast, on the web, uh, on the website, uh, for many listeners to, uh, to read it.

It’s been great to reconnect here on the show and, uh, thanks again.

John P Bamforth: Pleasure.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose. This is a special episode, the first of a series in partnership with Biosciences Lebanese International Network – BioLink. This New York-based non-profit is on a mission to build a global community of professionals in biosciences of Lebanese origin, like me, and it turns out, there’s quite a few of us. Most interestingly, it has set a bold vision, which is to catalyze a life sciences ecosystem in Lebanon by working with local talent and academic centers, with the support of the Lebanese diaspora community. This is an ambitious goal, but BioLink.org’s founders Dr. Francois Nader and Khalil Barrage are some of the most accomplished people in the industry, and if anyone can pull it off, they can. I’m thrilled to have them with me today! Francois is a pharma veteran who sits on the board of several biopharma companies. He is chairman of GEn1E Lifesciences, and a board director of Moderna and Ring Therapeutics, as as a senior advisor to Blackstone Life Sciences. Francois became known within the industry, when he took the helm of NPS Pharma in 2006. The company was then on the verge of insolvency. Francois turned it around and sold it less than a decade later for more than $5 billion to Shire. Khalil is a managing director at The Invus Group, a New York-based global investment firm. He established the Public Equity Group which invests in emerging innovative biotech companies, and co-manages private biotech investments, making Invus one of the most active investors in biotech, according to PitchBook. Khalil also sits on the board of several biotech companies, including ElevateBio, Sensorion, Onxeo, Protagenic Therapeutics, and Orthobond. Great to have you Francois and Khalil! I’d love first to hear more about your personal storis, how did you end up in the healthcare world and being incredible leaders in biotech?

Francois Nader: , I can, , I can start. , first and foremost, thank you for in, , inviting us to be here, , today. , really a pleasure and thank you for your many contributions to, , , biopharma, but also to our community. My story is not, , very different from many of the Lebanese in the diaspora. , born and raised in Lebanon.

Went to the, , French, , faculty, St. Joseph, and then because of the Civil War, , we left Lebanon back in the early eighties. , and very quickly from, . Clinical medicine to, , r and d and commercial. , and my first mandate was in France. I, , was involved with the pastor vaccine, which is the vaccine business of the Pastor Institute.

And, . Quickly became the head of international there. it was a terrific experience. Very different from being a clinical physician. , we then moved to, , to Montreal, , for family reasons. , and then from Montreal, I, , I moved to, , Kansas City, , where I joined. The executive team of Mary Merl Dell back then, , north America, in the capacity of head of medical Affairs and, , global head economics and outcomes research and, , many, many mergers.

Later we became eventists. And, , at that point I decided to switch career one more time and joined a venture capital firm, care capital in, , Princeton, New Jersey for a couple of years. And, , from then went to lead, , NPS Pharma, which was a very interesting journey in the rare disease. , that, , took us, , from a company that was in challenged to say the least, , to having, , two products approved globally, , in the rare disease space, , with no other treatments approved for either or.

And then, , my phone rang and, , shatter. Made us an offer that we could not refuse, and we, and the company was acquired back in 2015. Since then, , I, , I really divide my time between, , serving on board and I was lucky enough to have, , eight exits in the last eight years. , successive and successful exit.

But the other part of my life, , is to give back, to give back to Lebanon through, , either direct activities from our, , family foundation, justso Foundation, or through organizations like A TFL. And I serve also on the board of, , of LAU. , along this journey, I met my, , friend. And partner in crime, Halil.

And, , the idea of Biolink was born. And I would say the rest is history. Naji Gehchan: Thank you much, , FOWA for sharing your inspiring story. , what about you, Halil? And then we’ll go into Biolink story.

Khalil Barrage: , , thank you very much Najee, for having us, and, , it’s a real pleasure, , to be on your podcast and, , thank you for all your contributions to, to our industry and to our community as .

, I’m, I, I, I’m, I was born in, , Lebanon and I, . Graduated in, , 1987 from a UB. , and, , in 1987, , the situation was really, . , bad in Lebanon and I had no choice but, , to leave the country. I came to New York and I started, , I was offered my first job, , with the Ian group where I started my investment career.

And that’s where I learned the trait of investing. And in 2003. , I wanted to have more of an entrepreneurial career and I left to join the Invis group where, , I joined to set up it’s, , as a partner to set up its public equity activity. And that was, , the. As, as we all know though, in 2003 was the end of the sequencing of the human genome and the beginning of the, , biotech revolution and the burst of precision medicine and all this innovation that we’re seeing.

And, , Invis is a, , we’re managing the asset of a European family office, we have the luxury of having permanent capital and investing for the long term. And that’s where my, , journey started and investing in biotech. , , we, , today we’re one of the largest investors in this space. I also co-manage our private investment activity, which started in 2014 when we saw a lot of this innovation.

That, , we’re seeing in, in the biotech space. , , and we felt like we needed to, to be, , exposed to this innovation. And actually, Moderna was our first investment, , in 2014. . , the rest is history. , I met Francois, actually, , my partner in crime, , through one of the investments that we had. He was the chair of Acceleron, , which was a very successful exit.

We were one of the largest investors in Acceleron. And, , and that’s how we met. And, , and this whole journey started and, , subsequently the idea of Biolink was born. And, , we’re very excited to be part of it, both of us. Naji Gehchan: Thanks, , Jil for sharing your journey. And it’s, , as we discussed also several times, it’s these journeys of, , resilience of grit and really built on purpose.

, I know both of you are in this industry, not by coincidence, but really to, . To bring innovations for patients, , as we all do in in the biotech field. you both mentioned Biolink and how it started and the idea that came to mind. tell us a little bit more, how did you come up with this idea, , and how all this journey started?

Francois Nader: There is a certain synchronicity and, , I cannot say it coincidence, I could say that it was meant to be. , as unfortunately we all recall, , the port explosion, which, , which triggered, , quite a bit of, , pain and suffering in Lebanon at the same time. , it also triggered a lot of goodwill, , from the diaspora.

Trying to do, to use every mean, , to help and give back. And this is where, , Halil and I, through our different channels, , were committed to help Lebanon, , through providing medicines and medical supplies and equipments that were badly needed. And, , we went. On, , a journey to look for donors. And, , it, it became very clear that, , many of the, , donors, , that were, , willing to help, , came from Lebanese origin.

, which, , is not surprising in a way, but what was surprising, the more we were looking, the more we find. People like Halil and I, , who are in the life science industry and willing to help. And one thing leading to another, , Halil and I were just talking, and I vividly remember is Sunday morning where we were on the phone and brainstorming and the idea came up as to.

It came up as a question, is there an organization that could really coalesce, , all these Lebanese talents in the life science industry? And quickly we came to the conclusion that such an organization, interestingly enough, does not exist. And then we came up with the idea, why don’t we create one.

And, , I started dabbling with names and the name Biosciences, , Lebanese International Network was born. And the idea of creating Biolink, , which is Bioscience Lebanese International Network, , , was also. It was one of those, as I said, serendipity, but also synchronicity because J and I had the same idea at the same time and we were talking to each other. it did not take long for us to say, , let’s do it. And, , we, , then incorporated, , , the organization as 5 0 1 C3 in, in New York, and we started building it. , and we can talk, , more about, , our strategy in building it and, , our objectives, but to, and I will pass on the, the microphone to Halil, but really we had one immediate, .

Objective and one dream. The immediate objective was certainly to, and this is why we called it network, is to identify and put, , all these colleagues. , together, , find a way where we can create a community of, , executives, , from, , Lebanese descent who either work in or with the life science industry. that was the immediate goal. But hail and I had a, a vision, a dream, , which, which was, and is how can we create a life science ecosystem in Lebanon? That was frankly the give back, contribute back to our country that drove most everything we did. And il, you take it from here. Khalil Barraje: , it’s really, . It’s exactly how Francois described it.

It was, , we knew we had, we were aligned when, , when I invested in, , in Acceleron, I knew, , we had, , I, I always bet on, on great management teams and great boards, the first thing I do is I look who’s the board and, . When I saw Francois and his track record and, , and , there was a lot of, , meeting of the minds even in that investment.

And it’s exactly how he described it. When, when, , the explosion happened, , we were both trying to see how we can send some, , much needed medicine to Lebanon and through that, , discovery. We found that there is an incredible network of, , of Lebanese, , executive in the industry. And, , and it wasn’t surprising in hindsight because, , we have great academic institutions in Lebanon, like a UB and USG and where Francois graduated, I graduated from A-U-B-L-A-U.

. , , and because of the war, , this talent basically is not, didn’t have the opportunity to stay locally and work locally, and they immigrated. we, in, in parallel, I was also on the board of, , life at that point, and I was in charge of the nurture, , , , vertical basically that, , provide scholarships, , to, , Lebanese students, , in Lebanon and abroad.

And. I was always very uncomfortable, , that all the scholarships were going to, to business majors, and we saw what happened in the, , banking industry and, and I pushed very hard to broaden the scholarship to to other industries because I was always of the belief that. Lebanon of tomorrow is gonna, or the economy of the Lebanon of tomorrow is gonna be different from what happened in the past.

, when Francois and I started talking about Biolink, we both had this same idea that first, what if we put this network together? And, , and create a sense of, , community and, , and in the future, hopefully one day we can use this, , network to help, , catalyze, or we use the word, put the blueprint of a, , life science economy.

In Lebanon, , given we know what’s happening in Lebanon today, , all the institutions are pretty much, , the government has ran out of resources and, and , , there was a lot of corruption and. A lot of help will be needed. And our thought was, what if we can put this, , , , this network together, working in partnership with the academic institution to potentially one day, , , create help, , and, and create.

, , new sectors or new industries in on our beloved Lebanon. And, , if the, if the situation is, is, , conducive to having, , creating jobs, , and, and, and if there is peace one day, , then there wouldn’t be a need for this talent to immigrate and stay local. And that’s how Biolink was born.

And, , and it’s incredible how much we find, , appeal, , to this proposition. Like you Naji, who, , you were, we were grateful and really honored to have you part of this organization and, . As it appealed to you, this proposition. we’re finding it, it is appealing to a lot of, , our, , our community who is in this industry.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you both and , the honor is all mine. And as you said, it’s , those encounters, the common values and unfortunately it started with an event, , just for the listeners who don’t know, but the Beirut explosions you both talked about was the third. Biggest explosion in the world, , non-nuclear, , that unfortunately, , accounted for several deaths in, in Lebanon and more than 7,000 wounded.

, from there you had this vision, you had this dream. , you started encountering several, , like us in this industry from Lebanese origins. , tell us a little bit more about how many do you estimate we are, , and how are you making sure that you’re convincing them to join this, , this noble purpose?

We have.

Francois Nader: , that’s the million dollar question about how many, , we are. , what I can tell you though is the more you look, the more you find it, it has been an amazing journey, , because, , , with, , with folks with a name that sounds Lebanese, it’s easy because you can detect that they could possibly be from, from Lebanon, but.

Many of our colleagues have, have, , different last names that are don’t sound Lebanese or, , through, , marriage or, , Americanization of, of their last name. , you cannot trace them, but yet. , they’re there and I cannot tell you how many precisely, but what I can tell you is, , the strategy we adopted was to first and foremost.

Once we incorporated the Biolink was to, , , recruit, attract a top-notch, , board. And, , we were very gratified by, , how, how quickly and, , we were able to build the board, but also very gratified. By the amazing talent, , that we were able to attract. Actually, it’s not Hal, it is the concept of Biolink and answering probably your second question.

It, it’s pretty also very interesting that, , when we talk about Biolink. , , far I can, I can say with no exception, people listen and are very interested and, , the, the board is playing, , the role of magnet, if you will. , because remember, it’s a network and, , we want to ensure that, , our, , our membership, .

Is, , is working together. also it’s very important, especially in the context of Lebanon, to remind your listeners that, , biolink is apolitical. , and secular. , , we are, and it’s by membership only and by invitation only. it’s, it’s a very selective, , approach, , by design. , but yet we’re open to, , it’s a global organization.

We have now a, , a, , chapter in, , in Boston, chapter in New York, chapter in the Bay Area, and I will be heading to London in, . In April, , to hopefully inaugurate a London chapter. And, , we start having, , members in Lebanon. We have board members, , from Lebanon, Bernard, and Mui. And, , recently Dr.

Kamal Bader joined us as our first member in Lebanon. , , the organization is expanding and, . It’s attracting various, various backgrounds. All of them share the lay same love for Lebanon and, , their contribution, , to the life science industry. Naji Gehchan: What has been your biggest surprise, Jil, as you started to expand the network and build, , the objectives?

Khalil Barrage: I think our biggest surprise was the, . The breadth of this, , the network and, and, , , the, the how, how, , like Francois said, the more we looked. The more we find it’s, it’s, it’s incredible. Like, and then the highest places, , in our industry, this, like we, we, we suspected, but , there are a lot of Lebanese organizations like Lab Net and other, other organizations.

, and there is of course also, , a lot of medical associations because there are a lot of doctors. . That are, that graduated from those, , top tier academic institutions. And we honestly, we, we thought that there’s are a lot of us out there, but we didn’t realize how many are, are there, , and the quality, not just like quantity in terms of like in the, in the highest, , positions and really in the leadership of a lot of, because we focused, we wanted, , we wanted to be, .

Differentiated from, , from, , other organization. We were focused on executives in the industry. that, that was, , that continued to surprise us. And, , , the other, the other surprise I think is even. , , the members that we’re attracting that are not actually, that were not born in Lebanon .

, that have, , that are from Lebanese descent, how committed they are and how excited to be part of this organization. , there is really an energy that. Francois and I are, , , we’re thrilled to see it. , but, , , no matter, , how far you are, , there is this connectivity back to the, to the, to the, to the, to to the home country, which has been really, .

Incredibly rewarding to both of us. , which gives us, , the, the, it’s not easy to build an organization like that, ? And Francois has been an incredible chair. Not surprising. , is, , one thing, , for sure is both of us will not go into anything if we don’t wanna. See, we we’re not gonna see through, , , to its success.

But, , it takes a lot of work to get that. And, , and, , I’m, I’m really, , thrilled to be francois’s partner in this endeavor, but it’s incredible the amount of, , excitement we sense in the community for this. Organization, which keeps us going really.

Naji Gehchan: I can certainly attest to that. I, I saw, I feel the energy and I’m, , really grateful you both founded this. I’m excited for what’s ahead for Biolink as, , as it keeps growing and bringing. The impact of a network, , and also this longer term vision of, , life sciences ecosystem, , in, in our home country.

, I, I’m gonna now move to a section that is different where I’m gonna give you a word and I would love your first reaction to it. , the first word is leadership. And I’ll start with you, Francois.

Francois Nader: Outcome.

Khalil Barrage: Vision. Naji Gehchan: Vision, great. The second one is Lebanon

Francois Nader: Opportunities.

Khalil Barrage: , very dear to my heart.

Naji Gehchan: What about Biolink Khalil Barraje: Dream?

I would say Dream Naji Gehchan: two. And the last one is spread love in organizations.

Francois Nader: We need it most. We need it today more than ever.

Khalil Barrage: It is an essential recipe for success.

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?

Francois Nader: , I, , certainly don’t. Want to give any lesson to anyone because, , leaders, , across, , different verticals and different, different domains are, are doing absolutely amazing things. Probably what I learned the hard way is, , two things. One is, , leaders, , probably show most leadership. During a crisis, , this is where, , your teams, your stakeholders, look at you and, , and expect you to lead. my probably comment or suggestion is, please lead, especially if you don’t have a clue where you’re going, which happens. But, , they, . Everyone around you expect you to lead. Corollary to this is, , in my opinion, the single most important, , attribute of a leader is personal credibility. , whatever you do, , make sure you do not, , lose that.

It’s very difficult to build. It takes time. It’s, it can be lost in a nanosecond. , and that is what, , makes the difference between terrific leaders and leaders.

Khalil Barrage: Look, I, , I couldn’t agree, , more with Francois. , I would add also, look, this is a tough business. . , , , you need to have grit and, , and really in any situation you get in or any opportunity you have to be there for the long term, ? Because what we do is not easy. , biology is difficult, .

, always surround yourself. Make sure that all the stakeholders are the right stakeholders, whether it’s the board, whether it’s the investors, , and, , and your reputation is everything, right? Because you’re the example to the rest of your organization. And, , that’s a, . Prerequisites as Francois was actually, , and continues to be a leader and a a, , an operator and he has a very long list of success.

I’m an investor, , and I. Those are the, the qualities and those are the characteristic I look for when I, when I invest. And that’s why I invested in Acceleron when, when he was the chair and another, , colleague of ours on the board, Habib Daley, who was also, , , the, the CEO who Francois recruited to Acceleron, but.

That’s the first thing I look for, right? Like integrity, honesty, and track record of, of success. , , and God knows, . How many ups and downs accelerant went through before the, , , before the, the, the ultimate, , success, which was one of the biggest exits in biotech that I’ve ever had in my portfolio.

, , yeah, it’s, it’s a long-term game and there are no shortcuts. There’s one thing you can bet on in this industry, like. It’s easy to have shortcuts, right? Because, , it’s, there’s a lot of excitements and you can cut the corners in decisions, but everything will come back to bite you. , , doing it the right way, , surrounding yourself with the right people, the right capital.

, that enable long-term success is really a, a, a prerequisite.

Naji Gehchan: , thank you both. These are incredible words of wisdom for all of us leading in, , the biotech world. , it’s been really a pleasure and honor to have you both with me today. Thanks again for joining me.

Francois Nader: Thank you very much for inviting us, Naji, and, , great job with your podcast and, , the influence.

You’re having a great positive influence you’re having. thank you for that.

Khalil Barrage: Thank you Naji, and , good luck with your new role, , Kyverna, and, , we’re all rooting for you. Naji Gehchan: Thank you tha thanks again both of you. Thanks for listening to the show. More episodes in partnership with biolink.org can be found on our respective websites.

Make sure to subscribe to spread love io.com or whatever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire, change together and make a positive impact in healthcare. One story at a time.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

I’m Naji your host, excited to be joined today by Catharine Smith, who serves as inaugural Executive Director of the term Foundation, which carries on the bold legacy of former Genzyme, CEO, uh, Henry Term.

The foundation understands that bringing new treatments to patients is grueling work with a low probability of success, and believes we can improve these odds by positively impacting the human variables in healthcare. By supporting biotech leaders, they seek to increase the probability of creating cures and solving healthcare’s greatest challenges.

Prior to this, Catherine served as the CEO of the Clinton Health Matters Initiative at the Clinton Foundation, where she led a team focused on stigma reduction and overdose prevention related to the opioid epidemic. Before that role, Catherine was the executive director of the Harvard Center for Primary Care.

Where she led business development strategy and operations for a think tank focused on improving value-based patient-centered care. She holds an MBA from MIT and a graduate degree in social science research from the University of Chicago. Catherine, it’s really great to see you again and have you with me today.

Thanks, NJI. It’s awesome to be here. I’d love for us to hear more about your personal story, what’s, uh, behind your journey in the nonprofit world and specifically focused on healthcare.

Catharine Smith: Yeah, I’m, I’m happy to answer that. You know, I’ve had kind of an, an interesting shift in my life. So I started out, I mean, you mentioned that I have, uh, my first master’s is in social science research, and I, I really started out more in the kind of like social movement, social activism space, looking at the intersection of social movements in the international political economy.

But I moved back to the United States, finished my master’s in the early two thousands, and. I started really thinking about what the biggest challenges that I saw socially in the United States and where I wanted to get involved and where I really wanted to start my career. And if I, if I go backwards a little bit.

You know, I grew up in Missouri with a single mom without health insurance, and so really grow. Growing up I thought healthcare is just one of these things that wealthy people access. It’s not something for everybody. And then when I moved back to Chicago, and again, I’m, I’m sort of in that mindset of like human rights and social activism.

I started meeting a group of people in Chicago who are really sort of. At, at the time, pioneering this idea of healthcare as a human right. It’s been around for a really long time, but this was a new idea for me, and I was, I was blown away by it. I think now I’m, I’m kind of like, oh, that’s really silly.

How did I not know that? But coming from the sort of more blue collar background that I had, I never really thought about healthcare as this thing that, that anyone could access, that really anyone should access. And so started my career in healthcare, in health research and really started on this journey of how do you actually achieve health here as a human, right?

There’s so many cool entities working across the globe thinking about, you know, sustainable development goals and how do we get to universal health coverage? But at the time I didn’t know any of that, and so really was looking at these different bright spot models over the last 10 or 15 years of how do you achieve this goal of universal health coverage of healthcare as a human right.

While also supporting the workforce that delivers that healthcare while also making sure that it’s really patient-centered and, um, approaches different people in different ways that there’s a health equity focus. And so I started out really more in the delivery space, working primarily with physicians.

In the hospital medicine space, the primary care space, um, the community medicine space, looking at those bright spot models. And then a couple of years ago, um, got a call from a brand new foundation called the Tamir Foundation, which was really working more in the biotech space. And I thought, wow, if, if we’re really thinking about.

Bright spot models for achieving universal health coverage. What better way than looking at these cutting edge science and technological breakthroughs to really be a lever for change to make the world healthier? I mean, this is really the biotech social contract. This is what biotech is trying to do.

But for me, again, coming from this. System space. I was like, wow, how cool could this be? Right? So really shifted two or three years ago into this mindset of how do we use breakthroughs in science and breakthroughs in technology to breakthrough some of the complexity in the global and US healthcare system to make healthcare better for everybody.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much for, for sharing part of your story, uh, and also how you’re thinking throughout, uh, the, the past years. Uh, so as you said, you moved from being in the care place delivery. To now biotech, uh, and also you did some vertical specific and some, uh, crisis or diseases. So I’m interested along the way you’ve really do always supporting and solving complex problems with this idea of bringing healthcare as a human right.

Which I certainly believe in. Um, what has been your biggest learning throughout this journey and those different verticals, if you want to call them that way?

Catharine Smith: Yeah, so I, I would say overarching and, and this ties into the work that we’re doing at the Premier Foundation, overarching, is the power of an individual leader or a group of leaders to affect systemic change.

And, and I, again, I think this isn’t a, a surprise when I really think about. My initial focus on social movements and how much social movements have, have impacted us sort of socially and politically, um, and economically over, over the last century. Um, but I really started thinking about this when I was working at the Society of Hospital Medicine.

Which at the time was kind of in the scale up phase, but still working very closely with the founders and the idea with those founders, with the founders of Society of Hospital Medicine were, you know, there’s this tremendous shift in the way care is delivered in the hospital, and there have been so many tremendous changes in.

The hospital setting in terms of technology, care delivery, disease management. Um, and that was leading to a lot of challenges really in patient care in the hospital. And so this hospital medicine movement or the movement of, you know, physicians, nurses, and PAs working in the hospital who are really focused on that environment, um, provided an opportunity and really the founders of the hospital medicine movement took that opportunity to say, how do we actually improve the care?

For patients in the hospital and they thought about that in a lot of different ways. Um, but the thing that I think was the most interesting is how they deployed leaders. So, you know, when hospital medicine was born, sort of in the 1990s as a term. There was an acknowledgement across healthcare that we weren’t really training physicians as leaders.

And so they were one of the first organizations to say, how do we train our hospitalists not just to provide care, it’s really important, but to lead the care delivery. So they trained hospitalists as managers, as CEOs. They trained hospitalists as quality improvement experts. Um, they developed sort of a hub and spoke model for quality improvement where they trained mentors and leaders across the globe to then train other hos.

Hospitalists, I’m sorry, across the United States to then train other hospitals. Hospitalists across the United States to disseminate innovation through those hospitals. And I was like, wow, this is really, you know, there’s all kinds of things in the clinical care delivery and the education and the CME and the advocacy and what’s happening in dc that’s critical.

But what really fascinated me was how hospitalists as a movement honed in on the need to train leaders. And so that’s really followed through. And how I thought about primary care and how the Clinton Foundation was thinking about really shifting the narrative in the substance use crisis. And it is at the core of what we’re trying to do at the term year foundation with biotech leaders.

Naji Gehchan: So that’s a great segue for you to tell us a little bit more about the term foundation and the philosophy. You, uh, you.

Catharine Smith: Yeah. So, you know, for, for people listening who knew Henry Tamir? I did not meet Henry, but I feel like I know Henry through the people that worked with him, um, at Bio, at the Fed, at Genzyme in his life, um, in starting many, many, uh, companies.

You know, Henry, there were a lot of things that defined Henry, but I think the founders of the Tamir Foundation were really honed in on a couple of things. One, that he was a patient centered. Leader, his why was around patient impact. So it’s no surprise that he was really focused in the rare disease space.

And the other piece was he was a mentor. So there’s lots and lots of really cool stories about how Henry would take calls and really transformed, transformed careers, transformed ecosystems, companies, uh, therapeutic areas because he was mentoring leaders. And so that was the spark of the TRA foundation.

And so for me coming into it, I was the, um, brought in as the inaugural executive director and the first full-time employee to work with the founders, people who knew Henry Henry’s wife and several people who had worked with Henry or Henry had mentored. And so I’m coming in and I’m thinking. Okay. We have this really complex health healthcare system globally, especially in the United States.

If you really look at our high level metrics, we are not killing it in healthcare. Our life expectancy has been going down since pre COVID. We spend a ton of money, so I’m always thinking, what are these levers for change to make care better and more sustainable? Right? Because what we have now is, is care that’s really great in certain areas, but not great across the board.

We have health equity issues. We have cost issues, right? So what if we looked at biotech as this like really key lever to provide better therapeutics, better diagnostics, better patient journey, makes it life easier for physicians and nurses and PAs and care delivery teams. And what if we thought about leadership like Henry, right?

What if we thought about, you know. Our responsibility to solve big problems, leveraging our passion for patient care to move the needle forward. And so with the foundation, we, we said, what if we start with founders with early stage CEOs? Because we know that, um, early stage companies have tremend. Power.

It kind of feels like they don’t, right? Because there’s a lot of them and it’s really hard to get the company off the ground to get the science off the ground. But there’s a lot of power in entrepreneurship. There’s a lot of power in founding a company. Um, and there’s certainly a lot of potential for impact.

So what we’ve done is really think about this kind of, um. Social movement of biotech leaders. We really started with first time CEOs of people who want to change healthcare, wanna change society primarily through impacting patients. So we’ve recruited a group of healthcare leaders, of biotech leaders who are laser focused on patient impact, and then we provide them really lifetime support.

Sports by talking to them, by looking at what best practices are in leadership development, how do we take those people from wherever they are to where they want to go, which is patient impact? ’cause we all have the same why through providing them mentoring and professional development, training and coaching.

Um, and so we’re about, as a, as an organization with staff, we’re about four years old. So that’s been our kind of four year journey, like focusing on that why around Henry and patient impact and then around building this. Movement, social movement of patient-centered biotech leaders.

Naji Gehchan: And I’m excited. Uh, we can share.

I think today we will be bringing amazing biotech founders and, uh, some, some of their stories, uh, through Spread lab io and the partnership we will be building, uh, with, uh, with you, Katherine, and the foundation. Um, I, I know one of the key aspects that you work on, and you said it several times. Uh, leadership, uh, and how it’s defined as I was going through, uh, what what you do and what the foundation has been really, uh, doing strongly with a big belief is what you call human variable.

Um, so can you help us understand how you think about it and how have you been supporting those early phase biotech leaders through their journeys?

Catharine Smith: Yeah, happy to do that. So, you know, as our founders, the initial concept that our founders and our founding board had, I’ve heard this from Belinda Tamir and from John Meno, who’s the founding CEO of Alnylam, um, Alan Waltz, who’s another one of our co-founders.

I hear from them and, and I love this spark for the foundation, this idea that. You know, when we think about starting a biotech and we think about the biotech ecosystem, there’s really tremendous science. There’s tremendous breakthroughs in science. There’s a lot of capital around, even though sometimes it feels like there’s a not, um, the part, all of that needs to be moved forward.

And it’s complex. But the part that it has the most opportunity are the people, right? It’s the people involved in all of those processes, and there’s never enough. Leadership support for those individuals. So we know that, especially ’cause we’re working with early stage first time CEOs, everything is new for us, right?

Um, and for the community that we serve. And we also know that it’s a really lonely journey, right? So when I think about the. This resources we provide, I’ll, I’ll start with network. Um, which sounds like, I think when people think about network, they think about what’s the largest number of people that I can have in my network so that I can look at my LinkedIn or I can pick up the phone.

But when we think about network, we think about the deliberate, deliberate curation of a table of people. Could be a large table of people. That you call when you’re having your worst day that you call when your pitch deck needs to be refined, when you are having some sort of challenge in the lab or challenge in the clinic, right?

So multi-layered people with values that match with yours, because that’s really important. And for us, our value is really around patient-centeredness, um, and leveraging this. Science and the business as tools to support patients, right? So we look for those that values aligned network and really curating that group of people who can help a biotech leader or A CEO get to the next step, get to what they’re identifying as success.

So we do network curation in a lot of different ways. Um, we have a group of the most amazing mentors on the planet. Um, most of whom were either former CEOs or their board members, or they have really deep expertise in biotech. We have a group of advisors who are subject matter experts in anything from, um, clinical trials to hr, to finance.

And then, um, you know, we have the peer network, right? Which we actually hear from our first time CEOs that that peer network is the most valuable. I think I mentioned being A CEO, um, is really lonely. It’s a lonely path. You’re kind of, you’re stuck between a lot of different priorities in a lot of different groups of people and they really need each other and they lean on each other.

And then in terms of more like concrete resources, we look at the, the sort of training element of our programs in two ways, if you will. One of it, one of them is leadership development skills, and those are those leadership development skills that I saw developed in hospital medicine that I just saw, uh, developed in the physician as leader courses at Harvard Medical School.

In the, in the leadership skills that we were developing with primary care leaders across the us, across the globe. Those are those leadership skills that we need to navigate change to lead teams to fundraise. And then the other side are really technical skills. And those technical skills tend to vary.

So when we recruit a cohort, we have conversations with them, we find out their needs, and we sort of make those, um, technical skills a little more bespoke depending on the year, depending on where the cohort is hanging out. We bring in cohorts between seed and series A, um, but then in the lifetime of a fellow, they could be anywhere up through B Series B-C-D-I-P-O, right?

So those needs change. We have regular conversations with people to bring in technical expertise depending on the life cycle of that company. Um, so we really try to sort of put our footprint on what we think is really important for leadership, but also let our cohorts, let the CEOs that we’re supporting or the biotech leaders that we’re supporting also define what they need so that it’s really blended of need and sort of market best practices.

Naji Gehchan: This sounds really super strong and appealing for any first time ceo, so I don’t know how you, uh, how you do this selection and who are the lucky ones who get in. Uh, but it’s, uh, it’s really an amazing, uh, program and support system as you start into biotech. And I love how you talk about biotech being a lever to change care, you know, like.

Not, not many would think about it that way, but I certainly agree with how you’re framing it. Uh, so as you’re putting all this together and you’ve been having several cohorts, uh, I think through the past four years, um, in our current world, which is. Constantly changing. Sometimes we feel to the better as the science evolves.

Sometimes with policy, we might feel it in a different way. Where, where do you see the most exciting parts and the future of biotech as you’re really at the heart of the beginning of those, uh, revolutions, you’re, you’re leading.

Catharine Smith: Yeah, I mean there are so many ways that I could answer this, so I’ll just kind of try to be as concise as possible.

I think, I think like everybody, you know, we work with a lot of, um, patient advocate advocacy groups in the rare disease disease space. So I think just watching from micro to macro advancements in the rare disease space, I mean, it’s. I am not even sure that I have words to explain the impact that that has on children and families.

So I think there’s sort of actual changes that have happened, you know, from Genzyme with Gaucher disease to what we’ve seen with cystic fibrosis, um, today, you know, but really that potential, that new gene therapies, new therapies will come to. Really, hopefully cure children with rare disease and individuals with rare disease and treat other, um, rare disease symptoms.

So I think, like I could talk a lot about how, how wonderful it is to work with the different patient advocacy groups and different startups in the rare disease space. So I think that is. Always really exciting. It’s, you know, cord Henry, it’s core to Genzyme. Um, it’s not exclusively what we do, but we certainly have a rare disease bias because of the passion that lives within that community and the passion that still extends from the Genzyme community.

You know, I think you mentioned policy and I think. One of the things that I’ve observed in the biotech space in particular, obviously there’s a ton of federal funding in the biotech space, and federal funding is like, you know, it’s, it’s subjected to the whims of what’s happening in dc, right? It’s subjected to the whims of politics across the United States.

There’s also a lot of private sector money in biotech, obviously, that gives biotech, again, the ability to be a tremendous lever for change. And we see a lot of investments happen and we know, especially with vc, um, people are looking to make money and that’s fine. That’s the game that we’re playing. And there is also an opportunity to really think about health equity.

And so one of the things that I’m really excited about is. All of the energy and passion around women’s health that I’ve seen over the past six or eight months. I know some of that came from some of the, the, um, statements and policy out of dc but honestly, there’s still a lot of excitement. You know, that you look at the biotech, sisterhood, right?

Biotech, CEO, sisterhood, um, a group of women CEOs across the United States, and there’s such tremendous energy for that. But if you also just look at the different, um, VCs, different labs that are really thinking about women’s health and if we really think about health equity and what’s happening in particular in the United States, but across the globe with disproportionate impact of disease on certain communities, I think you could look at a lot of different communities, but you look at women and we’re a huge percentage of population, right?

Um, and so I am really excited to see how the private sector across the board really rallies around. Unmet need in that space. I mean, there’s no better definition of unmet need, um, than looking at women’s health right now. So I’m really excited to see what happens in that space too.

Naji Gehchan: Certainly a, a lot to be done.

I’m, I’m with you. Like the excitement of the work ahead and also what started is really important and there’s still, there’s still a lot to be done, which is exciting actually, because we can, we can solve for it together. Um, I’m gonna now give you a word and I would love your first reaction to it. The first one is leadership.

Catharine Smith: Yeah, my first reaction to that is responsibility. Um, it’s one of our values at the Premier Foundation. It’s one of my personal values. I think the biggest sign of a leader, and, and I would note like leaders can be anybody, right? They can be. First year corporate interns, they can be high school students. I mean, leadership is not about title, it’s about ethos.

Right. And I think the first sign of a leader is that they take responsibility for the change that they wanna see. That could be having a less toxic team culture. It could be, you know, curing rare disease. It could be scientific breakthroughs, it could be running for office, right? And I think taking the responsibility for the change that you wanna see.

Is so critical, like we just won’t move forward as a society no matter what. Move forward is like a little subjective, but whatever move forward looks like for somebody we can’t do if we don’t take responsibility for that. Um, so that’s the first word that comes to mind.

Naji Gehchan: What about biotech?

Catharine Smith: Oh, you know, I really think I’ve, I’ve been listening to, um, Peter Ksky in particular talk about the biotech social contract.

Again, a new concept to me being relatively new to biotech and really been thinking about how he frames that. I think I mentioned sort of biotech as a lever for change. I, because I come from a more health systems approach, I really do think about this unbelievably complex ecosystem of hospitals, community-based care payers, the government, um, investors, biotech rights labs, and.

We need serious change in healthcare in this country. I think anybody who’s received any sort of healthcare, whether it’s for something relatively simple or complex, knows how terrible that process can be for a patient. Um, and think about how much better the process would be if. The diagnostics and the therapeutics were more streamlined.

If they were more accessible, if they were affordable, if they were easy to deliver, if the side effects were minimal. Think about how much biotech could play a role in the broader, broader healthcare system in solving some of the problems. Even honestly with. With clinician burnout, which is a huge issue.

The, the, the departure of clinicians from the health system is a little concerning. It’s one of my biggest concerns. Right? But what if we made the delivery of care a lot easier, a lot more streamlined? And so I just, I think I, when I think about biotech, I know people tend to think about disease and science.

I tend to think about this big ecosystem and what biotech’s role is, what the responsibility of biotech is for. Thinking about how it makes the system better. In providing better care for everybody. Um, obviously that taps into unmet need, which is a big part of the contract that biotech has with the globe, but it, it unmet need is small groups.

It’s big groups, right? It’s public health, it’s individual disease. Um, so I think it’s just really thinking about the potential for biotech to change the world through, through science.

Naji Gehchan: We talked about systems, so the word is system dynamics.

Catharine Smith: Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah.

Catharine Smith: I mean, of course I think like you, I’m thinking of one of these big Nelson repenting, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, I think system dynamics, I think it’s an, it’s an interesting way of thinking about the world because it’s so. You know, it’s easy for us to get into this kind of, I, I’m always annoyed with how people can get very binary about all different types of things, when in reality it’s a complex system. And if instead of thinking yes or no, if we think, what if I jump in at a point in this big factory, right?

And Nelson rep Pennings dynamics look like a big factory. What if I jump in at a point in the factory and try to make this piece better, it’s gonna have disproportionate impact. We don’t know what that’s gonna look like. What if I find a group of people that think like me and we jump in at different places in the factory and try to make the whole factory better, right?

These are the opportunities that we have, um, when we think more systems wide and, and take responsibility for the change that we wanna make.

Naji Gehchan: Totally. The last one is spread love in organizations.

Catharine Smith: Yeah. Okay. So what really, what really interested me about you and about this podcast is, you know, um, aside from thinking about the, the healthcare system as a whole, you know, uh.

I’ve been working for a long time, right. I’ve been working for a long time and I, I, I think my first job when was when I was 11, um, off the books and have been doing a lot of off the books and on the books, working basically since I was a teenager and I’ve worked in some amazing places. Um, you know, I’ve worked in some amazing places and I’ve worked in some toxic places, and at the end of the day, um, most of us spend a lot of times, a lot of time within the, within the containment of our organization, of our employer, um, of our school, right.

And. There are so many really cool ways to run those organizations, to run those institutions, companies, and schools. And I think really your framing around spreading love, letting that be a point of orientation is so cool. I mean, I think that’s super core. It’s core to like management philosophy. It’s core to, you know, setting organizational vision.

I think I mentioned before just about biotech. We don’t do anything without the people. And I think a lot of organizations, they do kind of lose sight of the people, right? For a whole, for a lot of reasons, some of which are really good reasons. But the people, and making sure that the people have that, um, meaningful connection and are oriented around love is, and kindness is really critical.

Um, there’s no way we can get through the hard stuff if we don’t do that. So I love that you have this podcast and that you’re talking with people who have that same point of orientation.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much for your words. And, uh, yeah, it’s a, it’s a journey as you said, and certainly we deeply believe in it as you are also doing with, uh, with the leaders and founders you have, uh, in the foundation.

Uh, any final word of wisdom, uh, Katherine for leaders in healthcare?

Catharine Smith: I think, you know, two things that I’ve been thinking about a lot, and this is, this is a little bit for my friends, more in the care delivery space right now because that work is so, so hard. Um, and that’s just like, keep going and figure out.

What your point of light and point of why is, um, because we need you and that’s the people in the care delivery space specifically. We need you and ask for partnership. I think within the biotech space, I have some conversations with some people in the space that are, um. You know, crossing over between care delivery and biotech.

I think there’s a lot of opportunities to sort of refresh some of the challenges that are happening in the care delivery space through those partnerships. But, um, you know, and I think for everyone it’s think of, think of big problems that you wanna solve and let that be your point of inspiration. It drains us all.

It drains me too. Um, but it’s really exciting to think about some of these big challenges in healthcare, whether they’re due to the policy that we’re seeing now, or whether it’s just the natural eeb ebb and flow and complexity of human health. Um, but to find those big problems that you want to get involved in and, and find your humans who will solve them with you.

Naji Gehchan: I love that, and it’s certainly exciting. Uh, thank you so much, Catherine. We can, uh, talk for hours, uh, and I’m really, uh, grateful for your time today, all the impactful work you’re doing in the healthcare and, and in the biotech, uh, field. I look forward to meeting actually several of, uh, the founders you have and fellows you have at the, the foundation soon on future episodes.

Uh, so thanks again. It, it was a great pleasure to have you with me today.

Catharine Smith: Thank you so much. Thank you for you and thank you for the work that you’re doing as well.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show. For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to spread love io.com or whatever you listen to your podcasts.

Let’s inspire, change together and make a positive impact in healthcare one story at a time.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

Naji Gehchan: I’m Naji your host. Joined today by Selin Kurnaz CEO and co-founder of Massive Bio, a health tech company, improving access to cancer clinical trials through AI and data driven solutions.

Seline holds a PhD in mechanical engineering. And brings over a decade of experience in life sciences, strategy and operations. Inspired by Higher Families Cancer Journey, Celine launched massive bio in 2015 to make cutting edge treatments more accessible, particularly in underserved communities. Under her leadership, the company has onboarded over 160,000 patients and built a global network of sites, partners, and advocates.

Sine is also a recognized voice for women in tech and digital health innovation. It is so great, uh, to see you again sine and have you with me today.

Selin Kurnaz: Thank you so much, Najee, for having me. It’s a wonderful opportunity to talk to you today.

Naji Gehchan: I had love to first, uh, hear more about your personal story and how it links to this, uh, great inspiring work you’re doing.

Selin Kurnaz: Yeah, so frankly in my personal story, I was not that kind of a kid on a lemonade stand, and I’m going to be the entrepreneur of all time. So the story has started with a much more well structured and planned story, you know, for those. Of us that has been grow up in outside the United States. You know, if you’re smart, you need to go into science, and then if you go into science, there’s a certain level of, uh, career paths that you have to follow.

So my story was in that one. You know, I, I studied engineering and go into a traditional route of working in a large and respected company. But while I was going through that, you know, I became exposed to private equity and the world of investment and I very much liked that. Uh, and then I was in process of opening up my own growth equity fund and investing companies at different growth stages.

And it was a very well planned, very well articulated career path, and that was also very much supported to my upbringing and everything that my family thought. That I have a job and that job is delivering, uh, its purpose with the financial freedom and so on and so forth. But then once the family hit with the world, uh, of cancer, everything has changed because historically, I was just trying to think this is going to be like a sighting in addition to my job.

Because coming to United States, going to PhD, going into that layers in the private equity. It took so much effort, so much, you know, resilience and I had a very well articulated plan, but then, uh, taking that entire plan, putting it aside, was absolutely very crazy thought for me. And I said, okay, let me try to do this thing as a, you know, a hobby or a side job, try to fix certain things.

But at, you know, six months after I have recognized that I was significantly underestimating the amount of work, the amount of stamina, the amount of everything that you need to do to change even a minute thing in the world of healthcare. And after I get that enlightening moment, then I said, okay, this is not going to be a hobby or a part-time job.

Then I have to put my everything into helping cancer patient to get access to clinical trials or anything beyond that. Then I left my job, uh, at Ernst and Young, which I was very close to being a partner, uh, and, uh, basically dedicated myself to the ma massive bio and the mission of Massive Bio. I don’t regret a second, but I have to admit that I was significantly underestimated the amount of, uh, challenge and the resilience that is required to build these kind of businesses.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much. Same for, for sharing this part of your journey. So I’m now intrigued, you’re open for another question, uh, about all the challenges. It’s quite a leap from engineering to healthcare health back and all the complexities of clinical trial. So I’d love to hear a little bit more about the challenges, how you’re applying your problem solving skills you’ve probably had as an engineer.

And, and maybe your leadership aspect into this, ’cause you’re such a human centered, uh, leader and what you’re doing is impacting patient at a really individual level of the toughest moments of their journey and stories. So I’d love to hear the hurdles, but also how you’re applying and transitioning and you transition to that word.

Selin Kurnaz: Yeah. So I think one of the things that I’m a big advocate is that, you know, clinical operations right now mostly done by people who has particular experience in how to execute clinical operations. But I think there are different disciplines, like engineering needs to be integrated, uh, in order to be able to work with, uh, clinical operations.

Because in the world of clinical operations. We’re not really changing the clinical trial itself, but we are changing the enablers to make that clinical trial successful. And for that purpose, you need to be, of course, knowledgeable about the clinical trial process, but you still need to. You know, have other disciplines and the involvement of those disciplines in order to solve the patient recruitment problem to the uh, clinical.

Trial, and those are very systematic approach problems that you may not necessarily find in the DNA of clinical operations in the DNA of clinical operations. Everything has to be in the FDA regulatory framework, and there’s a lot of complex processes that needs to be distilled. That creates the, uh, efficacy, uh, and the efficiency for the patient to have that safe environment, to have that drug and go into the next day in their journey.

And that requires a very nuanced subject matter expertise for the field. But patient recruitment, you have to find a patient, you have to prescreen the patient. You have to do the last mile of that patient that’s not necessarily in that regulatory framework, and that is much less scripted, which means you need to innovation driven mindset in order to be able to solve those large scale problems with very articulated, automated and scalable manner.

That’s what I am trying to play in advocacy, and I’m trying to marry engineering with clinical operations because I see that the patient recruitment problem in the world of oncology is a problem that has been there for very, very long years. It’s not that massive buy has invented that problem, and frankly, it is not even the top 20 pharma, uh, companies has invented that problem.

That problem was always there for decades. But what I’m trying to do is that I’m trying to bring a differentiated approach to solve a good old problem, maybe in a way that people haven’t thought before. And I also want that problem solving methodologies to not only potentially adapt just for patient recruitment, every aspect of the patient journey that can be used to further accelerate an advancement of the drug development process.

Because there is an individual patient clinical outcome improvement. But at the same time, we also wanted to go into the population level, learning from the previous journey of those patients and applying these, uh, you know, insights and learnings for the future, uh, drug development of the patients that, so that those patients can get less impacted for some of the things that the previous patients has been impact.

Naji Gehchan: This is, this is really impactful and meaningful, obviously for patients and, and at massive bio, uh, you guys have been leveraging, uh, AI before it was, or it became a thing right now. Yeah, it

Selin Kurnaz: was before Sexy and a thing and uh, we were using that. Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. So you’re using it and really to solve, as you said, like one of the oldest and probably one of the most complex problems, which is clinical trial access.

Uh, and, uh, and enrollment, uh, and really we know in oncology, but also in other diseases several times, the clinical trial is the best option for patients to get the most novel therapies. And sometimes patients unfortunately don’t know that. Uh, and, and you’ve been solving for that 160,000 patients, uh, as I said in the beginning.

So can you tell us a little bit more what you’re doing differently? And how you’re thinking about it. I heard you say about the patient journey and trying to solve for it. I’m hearing also some predictability work for you to be able for the future patients, not to live what the, the first patients are living.

But tell us a little bit more from a tangible, how, how are you doing a tangible difference for patients? ’cause I know you do.

Selin Kurnaz: Sure, sure. So let me give you the more like the foundationally, how we are different. Then I’m also going to focus more on the AI aspect and how that AI is actually creating the outcomes for the patients.

So in terms of the differences, first and foremost, we are oncology and hematology dedicated company. So we are not. In different disease types. We are the people in the world of cancer. Unfortunately, cancer is so difficult and challenging, and I think you cannot serve to multiple masters at this point in time.

We only serve to one master, and that master is very difficult to, you know, unbundle because cancer is always very strong, unfortunately, uh, relative to the humankind. So that’s one. And then the second thing is that we’re looking at this thing at global scale because there’s a lot of companies, you know, trying to do this thing at a US level, some section of the us, which is important, but in order to be able to create real impact.

You need to be in the world of the top 20 pharma because they have fairly large scale clinical trials that impacts very large amount of patients. And in order to be able to get into the map of these guys, you absolutely need to work globally. The second aspect is that. You know when a pharma companies are looking for these inclusion, exclusion criteria, they’re looking at very, you know, particular patient populations, like patients that they look for first line, second line and above.

And the way how you find a first line patient is very different. Then how you find a patient from, you know, second line and above. You know, if it’s a first line osm, small cell lung cancer, you need to go into a pulmonologist. But if it’s a second line and above, you can go to the good old medical oncologist.

So you should have that flexibility and adaptability to work with different patient acquisition channels. Because if you’re a company just working with certain EMR integrations, you’re very limited. With the set of those, and then it’s very impossible almost to get back and then go into the direct to patient.

So you need to have that flexibility. And thirdly, which I’m also also going to consolidate with the artificial intelligence, you need to do this thing for the entire steps in the value chain because there are three different. Sections in the patient enrollment value chain. There is a patient identification.

There is the in the middle master pre screening, and then the third bucket is a last mile concierge enrollment. These are the each three pieces of the puzzle. If you do not do a good job in any of them, the deal is off. The challenge is to be. Equally successful in three of them, where each of them is more like a noble price level, difficulty, uh, problems, and you, it’s, it’s hard to get everything in order.

In terms of the ai, there are three layers of AI that we use. The first one is this master per screening. What that means is the following, when you wanted to get prescreen for a clinical trial, it takes about 25 minutes. In order for manually a nurse to prescreen you for a single trial with your medical records or any of the detailed clinical information that you have, given that we have 14,000 active recruiting and with some information, even 19,000 active recruiting oncology clinical trials@clinicaltrials.gov, that equates to 8.09 months.

For a patient to get pre-screened for all these trials, and if you are a patient at a very rapidly, uh, you know, progressing, uh, you know, subtype of cancer, that is completely unacceptable. So that 8.09 months need to be reduced to days, if not minutes. And that’s what we are trying to do to use the artificial intelligence.

To structure the medical information of the patient, to structure the molecular diagnostic testing of the information, plus to structure all the inclusion exclusion criteria that we receive@clinicaltrust.gov. And if we have protocols from pharma, wonderful. We also integrate that so that we do that mass matchmaking at scale to reduce the amount of time, maybe by 99%.

So that we can get to that patient real time, that these are the options for you to participate. So that’s kind of one application. And what is in it for the patient? The patient sits down in their living room, they don’t lose time, they don’t lose money, and they have a peace of mind to understand what is the right trial further.

So that they can activate their clinical trial enrollment process by being their own advocate. You know, because you, of course, you work collaboratively to a physician, but 50% of the physicians don’t even talk about a clinical trial. Maybe intentionally, not intentionally, you know, they don’t have the time in a lot of the cases.

But as a patient you can activate that process by yourself, which is like very important for me. And when you activate that massive bio is become your complimentary nature of, for you to operationalize that activation. The second part is this. Cancer patient’s journey. There has to be some level of prediction in that cancer patient journey.

You know, if you’re a multiple myeloma patient, the progression takes a lot of time and you really need to predict when is going to be the next progression in that patient’s journey. When the next M spike value is going to come to a level that I can predict that you are going to be a, um, uh, you are going to have the progression and how to.

You know, engage with the patient based on their clinical journey and what is the best time to intervene for a clinical trial because it’s not about, you have multiple myeloma and there is like thousands of clinical trials for multiple myeloma. Are you at the right timing in your disease stage and your clinical criteria?

And that’s where AI helps for us to identify that perfect timings to intervene and work with the patient. So that’s the kind of the second aspect of the leverage intelligence. The third aspect. There is also a lot of supply chain work that we do in the, in the last mile. We do a lot of patient engagement.

We do a lot of provider engagement. We develop these, all these applications with different chat bots that they basically sometimes work with agentic ai in order to be able to engage, you know, if you’re a patient, you have to be able to understand how many clinical trials often that you have. When is the next pre, because there are three outcomes.

Of the clinical trial journey, you are either fully eligible to at least one trial, which is wonderful. And then you moved into this last mile process. The second one is that you may be fully ineligible. You may be very late stage in the game that we have to look for other, uh, options for that patient.

And then the third option, which is typically the 80% of the patients, they’re in the middle. They’re not ineligible, but they’re not fully eligible either. So they are partially eligible, which we call those patients, are the patients in the virtual wait list. What that means is that they, that patient’s medical information needs to be received, and after receiving those medical information at certain intervals, then we determine if the eligibility has been insured or not insured.

And in that journey, those patients has to be engaged. You know, having in applications use of artificial intelligence that automates and scale that patient engagement, having an application that activates the physician for pre-screening their patients for referral to another site. Those are all the beauty of ai.

So that an individual patient can activate themself, an individual physician can activate themselves so that we are not restricted by the structural issues of the healthcare ecosystem. And that’s where AI can support. But keep in mind that in, in the world of healthcare, as you are also the master on this, just AI is not helpful.

AI needs to be integrated. The workflow and it needs to be invisible. And then AI also needs to be supported with these high value added customer services. So for example, in our last mile services, we refer the patient to a site and set up the uh, screening appointment. You know, yes, there is some kind of component that runs in the background, but there’s still an interaction that is needed.

If the clinical research coordinator at site doesn’t open the phone, I need to have a nurse that calls that, uh, you know, clinical research coordinator to convince that that appointment needs to be received two days from now as opposed to 23 days from now. And that customer support and high value added service has also needs to be integrated in the world of healthcare to have a really material impact how this AI needs to be felt in the daily life of humankind.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah, and this is, well, it’s incredible what, what you’re doing and what you’re, uh, solving for. Um, and I love how you’re bringing it. You know, we always use, like, use cases, et cetera, for AI are more important than all the, you know, hype around the terms. Uh, but really here you’re going again from the core of what will you do and your mission of improving those patient journeys.

And making sure patients get the best treatment options. And if it’s a clinical trial, it’s through clinical trials for you. Uh, and you’re solving each part of them, you know, like those last examples you gave. It’s real issues, you know, like today to even set an appointment. So really using the best tools for you to be able to.

Prescreen to select to get the patient in front of their, uh, sites. Uh, and, and, um, and investigators are really, really great to, to be able to do it. Uh, so I’d love now to, you know, go, go back on things you touched in the beginning, building the company, you know, from an idea to now having. Hundreds of thousands of patients impacted.

Your company grew. I think you’re more than 80 people in the company,

Selin Kurnaz: right? We’re 88 people working in 17 countries.

Naji Gehchan: Wow. And so tell me how, how did this go? How did you scale your vision and how do you keep it now and keep your people grounded? In this mission, you believed in the, when you started the company, now that it is grown to 88 people?

Selin Kurnaz: Well, I think the first thing is resilience because if there are hundred words that I hear on a given day, 99 of them is no. So if I basically run my life with nos, I had to shut down the company in two weeks. So this is a very, uh, challenging journey and you need to be uber resilient to, uh, move forward the next day assuming nothing has happened in the previous day and you haven’t punched in the face.

So that is very, very important. The second thing is that. Uh, you need to have the right co-founders and the right team because, you know, although you know I’ve been talking to you in here, I won’t be talking to you in here if this level of success has not been generated with all the people that I have.

So you need to believe in it. And you have to make sure that the other people around you has to believe in it. And I think there’s an easy way to solve that because you can talk everything you know, and then say, I believe in it. I believe in it. But if you are not the hardest working in the team to do it by yourself, to show it, to work on it, to sweat on it, people are not going to believe in you.

Or people are not going to believe in just the words. So you have to also show it, you know, if something is very difficult, put yourself into that very difficult situation. So when the team sees that, you know, you as the founder at 2:00 AM trying to fix something, then people respects you and they start to do as well.

So you cannot do this thing, uh, in my famous uh, word, which you cannot do this thing in your fingertips. You have to really immerse yourself into the situation. And then the third thing is that you need to have early adapters from a customer standpoint, uh, as well as ecosystem standpoint because you can kill yourself.

But if nobody is adapting, then uh, that’s also very challenging. And keep in mind that convincing this large pharma for these new approaches is monumentally difficult. Uh, ’cause their process is very long. Uh, they always look for very quantifiable metrics to say, uh, because they, they get a lot of options, so they have to filter out which option is the right option, not option, but there is nothing in the world that has become a, you know, a sensation, not in an overnight sensation, but even a sustainable sensation.

Without having certain level of infrastructure and investment, especially in the world of healthcare, this doesn’t happen overnight. So finding those people that believe in it and working with those people are significantly important. You know, I have all these people in these fairly large pharma companies.

I know who to call. I know who to cry in front. You know, I know who to to, you know, like fight this thing for me because these people know that. It requires time, investment and a lot of challenging days, and you need to have people in on the pharma side that’s an advocate of you internally and championing your company inside pharma.

Uh, because, and I’m think, uh, basically thinking that those champions are probably getting a lot of inertia and resistance even internally. Uh, to fight for this, uh, stuff, but the, those forward looking people are bringing the field forward. Yes. And you need to have some of them.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. Yeah. And, and a hundred percent.

And you know, when, what you’re saying about fighting crying, uh, again, I think you’re grounded. Uh, and as of those folks in biotech and pharma, we’re all grounded because, and we do this and we fight because we wanna. Better health for patients and, and trying to fix the health equity issues that we face. I, I, I wanna move now to, um, giving you a word, and I would love your first reaction to it.

I, I feel I know the first reaction to the first word, but I’m gonna try it still. The first one is leadership.

Selin Kurnaz: Very important.

Naji Gehchan: What about clinical trials?

Selin Kurnaz: My heart, I guess right now.

Naji Gehchan: Uh, women in health tech,

Selin Kurnaz: uh, challenging.

Naji Gehchan: Oh, I wanna know more now.

Selin Kurnaz: Yeah, because the thing is that. Even if you’re in the United States, which is one of the world’s most, um, forward-looking, uh, countries, uh, and one of the most wealthiest countries, um, you still get, uh, gender biases, uh, especially for in the women, uh, in healthcare because everyone wants to see the women in healthcare in junior positions.

But there are not a lot of people that want to see women in healthcare in senior positions and the very significant decision making level. And, uh, that is problematic ’cause you actually have more resistance. The more move up that you go when you are more junior, when you have less decision making power, people don’t see you as a threat and you don’t get a lot of, you know, resistance ocean level.

But then the more that you go up, the more decision making power that you have, the more you become a potential threat to the mankind. Then, uh, you start to get a lot of reactions and, and sometimes you get reactions that you don’t even know where that reaction is coming from, but then you started to peel that.

But no matter how, the difficult is, I always try not to take it personally. So, because if you take it personally, it’ll go nowhere. I try to take it, not to take it personally and try to digest it. But not dwell on it too much. Uh, and also, you know, like, understand the aspect is that life is not fair and, um, I’m not, you know, seeking for fairness in life, but I am seeking for success in the unfairness of life.

So that’s what I’m trying to do.

Naji Gehchan: Oh, I love this framing. And we, we certainly. Moved forward, but not enough. I’m, I’m a hundred percent with you. And, um, yeah, it’s, uh, it, it’s good to see where we, how far we’ve went, but it’s a journey and we can, we can see, we can go backwards, but there’s still a lot to go forward for, so For sure.

The, the last one is spread love in organizations.

Selin Kurnaz: Well, I think that spreading love should be, uh, the, the Democratic and that law has to be spread to every level, to every person. It needs to be a true meritocracy in that sense. Uh, and as a founder, I honestly don’t believe in titles, frankly. So, you know, like to me, the most junior person. The most inexperienced person is literally the same as me, the most senior and the flashiest title in the organization.

It’s all about sharing the same mission. Uh, and, you know, titles and all that stuff comes with time and all that stuff. You know, if you’re 21, it’s not your mistake. You are just starting. So the important thing is that do you have the business chemistry with that other person? Do you share the common mission and can you compliment each other?

You know, I have my skillset, the other person has their own skillset. Can you kind of, uh, basically bring that harmony together to create the best outcome? And you know, if you look at, in my organization, you know, we are very flat. You know, we don’t have like, oh, you can’t talk to the CEO at in this time, that time this restrictions and all that stuff.

It’s just like. You know, everyone has my, you know, cell phone number. They can call anytime, any hour for any issue. Uh, we are very open.

Naji Gehchan: I love this view of organizations and how you’re framing it. Uh, any final word of wisdom, Celine, for healthcare leaders around the world? Well,

Selin Kurnaz: I’m going to steal from what I’ve said, you know, resilience is key. Uh, being invisible in the world of healthcare, if you try to, you know, impose a particular innovation and change.

Uh, get ready for capital missile location because the way how the healthcare dollars are spent are not necessarily the places where the actual outcomes are generated. And fourth, enjoy the right. So I think, uh, no matter how complicated and challenging and, uh, everything it is, I think the way how I look at it, uh, when I wake up in the morning.

You know, is my family healthy? Uh, is the team intact? That’s it. So other than that, I don’t have a lot of, you know, uh, objective functions for today.

Naji Gehchan: Oh, well, so it’s a great reminder, uh, and you started with resilience. It’s a great reminder also how to keep ourself grounded, uh, as, as leaders, especially, uh, again, you’re, you’re super humble.

In the way you’re doing, but what, what your company did, when we talk about hundreds of thousands of patients who, uh, are now doing better, thanks to the work you’ve done and your partnership with, uh, a lot of people in the ecosystem, because I also see you as a connector between. All those people trying to serve patients, you’re the one actually doing it from the beginning to the last mile, as you call it.

Uh, so thank you again for being with me today. It’s been, uh, a pleasure to talk again with you and, uh, thanks for all your work you do with Massify and all your team.

Selin Kurnaz: Thank you so much Naji, for having you. This was a wonderful, uh, podcast and I definitely look forward to speaking you in the future ones as well.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show. For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to spreadloveio.com or whatever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire, change together and make a positive impact in healthcare one story at a time.

Selin Kurnaz: Wonderful.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose.

Naji Gehchan: I’m Naji your host, joined today by Christy Fernandez-Culle, CEO of DaVinci Wearables and former leader of sensing teams at Waymo Google. Self-driving and lifts, self-driving division.

Christy played a key role at Apple contributing to autonomous systems and releasing the first LID module in the 2020 iPad. She has spanned both the development of defense technologies at MIT Lincoln Lab and at scale consumer product technologies at Apple. Christy advises VCs and startups in mobility, autonomous vehicles and digital health, and serves on several boards.

She holds a PhD from Duke University and an MBA from MIT and lectures at Columbia University and MIT Christie, it’s just so good to see you again and have you with me today.

Christy Fernandez-Cull: Yeah. Thanks for having me. I’m delighted.

Naji Gehchan: Uh, I wanna first hear more about your personal story from childhood to tech and now being, um, an incredible, uh, entrepreneur in the health tech world.

Christy Fernandez-Cull: Well, thank you so much. I mean, um, for me, my journey started as, um. A little girl. My parents, um, you know, this quote isn’t theirs, but it was something that we held true in our family. Um, outside of family always being first, um, and having a foundation on faith. Um, it was really, if not you, then who, if not now, then when?

So it was this notion of even if you see, um, doors closed, you know, build a doorknob or find another door. And so a lot of. Um, our family values is, is really what anchors me on a day-to-day. And, um, this notion of being a dreamer and trying to understand and, you know, really kneel into, um, information and data and knowledge, truth be told, knowledge being at the root of a whole lot of power with, of course not power over.

And, um, a lot of my creativity, you know, when I was a little child actually, um, I didn’t come from a family of engineers. In fact, um, they were a family and Stelara family of entrepreneurs and, um, uh, property managers, uh, leaning into real estate. But, you know, as, um, every child on a Saturday, what, what do they wanna do?

They sort of wanna wake up. Mom and dad, uh, run downstairs and start the day at the top of the morning, which for me was about 6:00 AM. Um, my parents worked in New York City and, um, lived, um, in, uh, New Jersey. And so you can imagine the traffic now, um, you know, it’s about two hours each way. The traffic then was not all that different, and so while I wanted to.

Get up. Mom and dad wanted to sleep, rightfully so, because they were two [00:03:00] very hardworking parents, and so at a very young age. Uh, long story short is um, you know, I was a little bit shorter, we’re a lot shorter, uh, more petite and I couldn’t reach, um. The door handle. Um, it was a little high, uh, nor could I reach, um, the location of where the bowls were.

And so that, to be honest, started my journey in, um, well, when I was in, I think it was like fifth grade, I decided to build a serial dispenser. I didn’t know how, uh, but, and my parents didn’t know how, but what they did know was there was a hobby shop. Over at the next town. And of course I imagine lasers and, um, you know, a variety of different mechanics and levers and pulleys.

Um, to, to be able to pour bowls, uh, or cereal into bowls and milk, into those cereal bowls for every little girl, right? That wanted to wake up on Saturday mornings. Um, but, but didn’t wanna wake their parents up because then they would, they would be told to get back to bed. Anyway, that was sort of, um. My, you know, small example of [00:04:00] how you can dream of something, want it to become a reality and not just solve it or resolve it for yourself from your childhood dream, but you know, for every other, you know, child or little girl out there.

Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: I love that. So did you do it? Actually,

Christy Fernandez-Cull: I did actually. I built, and, you know, my father helped me. Um, you know, I’m convinced, um, in another life he would’ve been an engineer. Um, he, you know, my parents have always been super patient. And, um, if they didn’t have the answers, they would try to find someone who could help me.

Um, and that persists to this, to this very day. So yes, I did build it, uh, for my, uh, fifth grade, uh, science fair. Um, and a lot of my teachers were in disbelief. They’re like, no, you didn’t build this right. Why would you build something like this? But yeah, that was my journey into, um, trying to understand physics and engineering.

Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: Uh, this is, this is awesome. And obviously you said like it’s engineering, uh, it’s very early and entrepreneurship practically as you, as you build [00:05:00] this, I don’t know if you, you sold it at school, but it’s, it’s a great, it’s a great way to start entrepreneurship journey too. And then you went, uh, to, uh, apple, worked on iPad, autonomous vehicles, and now wearable.

What is kind of like the common thread beyond engineering or the technical aspect of it? Is there any common thread in your journey?

Christy Fernandez-Cull: I would say, you know, I in some ways was reprimanded, not by my parents, but by school of always having my head, quite literally in the clouds. I would look at the window, outside the window during school and I would look up at the clouds because I was intrigued by how they cast a shadow on my, you know, white paper that I was supposed to be taking notes on.

And I’ve always been very curious and asked way too many questions. And while in middle school that was viewed as a. You know, you’re gonna get in trouble. And this is another example. My parents came in, right? And rather than, you know, saying, okay, Christie, you shouldn’t be looking at the clouds, they actually [00:06:00] questioned the teacher, right?

So I come from a home of that support and foundation of my voice matters, and that independence matters. And so the common thread here is this notion of perpetual curiosity really lends itself hand in glove into. Whatever folks might think is impossible to try to make it possible, and that certainly resonates with, you know, apple.

Right them counter eye acting IBM at the time of think, uh, versus think different, right? And so, um, a lot of the common themes and, and what I’ve been, had the privilege and been blessed to be part of is how can we think about the problem space differently? To leverage technology in order to create consumer facing solutions that can surprise, uh, surprise and delight.

So to me, that’s the common thread. So what was, what was a negative middle school all of a sudden became this, you know, ever flowing, uh, sense [00:07:00] of positive energy in creativity. Uh, which again, I, I hold with me, um, to this very day. Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: And, and this is, this is actually something, uh, unfortunately a lot of times we, uh, start framing kids, uh, and making them stop questioning, ask questions.

Yes. Like we’re, we’re both parents. Sometimes it’s so hard to ask like the answer, the 100 question during the day, but you’re bringing such an important example and reminder, right? Like this curiosity and asking questions and dreaming and looking up the sky is yes, can, can grow into who you are today.

Yes. So tell us, uh, and make us dream about what, about your work at DaVinci Wearables. I know we connected during, uh, school and I’ve seen it, uh, really boring, but it’s been a while we’ve been chat. Where you’re at with this journey and what you’re building.

Christy Fernandez-Cull: Yes, absolutely. So, you know, at 15,000 foot view, uh, we wanna be the body API, [00:08:00] uh, for, for better health.

And, and what that really entails is, you know, imagine if, you know, when we, when we wake up in the morning, right? Um, we really don’t think twice about. Putting on clothing, A, legally we have to wear clothes when we leave the building. But b you know, it, it’s, it’s almost like our source of comfort, right? Um, so when we think about how to align ourselves with body intelligence, right, because we lack the insight to this very day, there isn’t a user experience that allows us to know when we lack hydration, right?

We can all like. Go to the restroom and see the color of our urine, engage that. Right? But there isn’t this real time, um, feedback to say what is, you know, what are my hormones telling me as I age? Which is pretty critical in particular for females because we’re constantly in a state of change, post puberty, right?

And understanding your hormones, understanding your hydration, understanding your nutrition, um, you know. Us as little girls post puberty. There’s a huge focus [00:09:00] on how not to have children too early. There really isn’t this source of education and physical education of here’s how your body is changing.

It’s a beautiful thing. Here’s how you work out with your body from a mental, physical, and social standpoint. And so at Da Vinci, when we talk about being the body API, it’s. Aggregating data from what consumers are wearing today to bring them from the present into the future, where it’s not a question of if it’s a question of when.

Our closing will quite literally tell us a lot about our biomarkers so that it’s a persistent, proactive awareness instead of what it feels like today, which is something’s wrong with me. I don’t love going to the OB, GYN. I don’t think anyone does, and you’re trying to really figure out the root of how you feel.

And because you don’t have this file and data set that you can bring right to the medical professional, they’re also trying to [00:10:00] figure it out with you based on correlations and look of tables from their training, right? So imagine if you had. Garments, right? So as we aggregate data from smart bands, smart watches, et cetera, we’re also infusing a gateway where every day apparel, athleisure apparel is actually lined with, um, intelligence, right?

And that’s a gateway into the Da Vinci platform. So that’s, that was a mouthful, but that’s where we are. And that’s the vision that, you know, that’s the future that we, that we see.

Naji Gehchan: That’s a powerful, uh, vision, especially as you, uh, as you said, you’re really, uh, working for women’s health, women’s tech, which is for years and still is unfortunately, very badly studied because of all the biases and mainly men’s health, uh, being in all those, those trials.

So, uh, as your first, where, which stage are you? Do you have, are you starting to prototype? Are you starting to, any people using it? [00:11:00]

Christy Fernandez-Cull: Yeah, so we’re chatting with, you know, a lot of the market segments that we’re focused on to date. And then I’ll, I’ll highlight the beachhead is, um, uh, the first is, um, universities and colleges, um, when those universities and colleges are also tethered to, um, health ecosystems and organizations as an example.

So one example would be Indiana University and Indiana University Health. Um, I’m choosing Indiana ’cause we happen to be headquartered, headquartered at Indiana and operations in Cambridge. Um, and then. So, so that ecosystem works hand in glove with a potential pilot with Elance Health as an example, right?

So, so it’s, it’s colleges and universities, it’s health ecosystems. Um, and, and, and then it’s, you know, we mentioned garments being sort of the gateway into the Da Vinci platform. So that would be athleisure. Um, partnerships. Um, so that’s where we are today. We have our, um, we’re B2B SaaS, a subscription as a service platform.

Uh, and so right now we’re, we’re [00:12:00] preparing for some pilots, um, with a couple hundred individuals. That are really aligned with that sort of flywheel that I just mentioned, right? A college, a university, um, um, a health, uh, organization within the ecosystem. Um, and, uh, so teachers bright for us we’re excited.

Uh, we do have our champions, um, that have get early access to our beta mobile application, uh, which is where we aggregate data, like I said, from smart bands and smart watches. Now, the activity tracker and the liners. Um, so that we’re lining, um, it’s sort of like an hourglass shape. Um, any sort of apparel.

Um, you know, that’s, we’re, we’re fundraising at the moment, so, so, um, you know, that’s, uh, we definitely have the patent moat. Uh, but in terms of the manufacturing, we have some prototypes. Um, this is

Naji Gehchan: great. This is great. Congrats for all those, uh, advancements. Uh, as, as you’re, as you’re thinking through this, because we talked obviously again about, uh, [00:13:00] important.

I, I love how you framed it like Buddy, API, uh, for, for better health, uh, for women. There, there is, uh, I imagine a lot around also the education about how to use this data because it’s, again, it’s like we’re not used to have such metrics. And what to do with it, what to do with them. Like have you, are you also providing, because immediately you get into like health, education, et cetera, which is another big topic obviously in this field.

Yes. Are you providing this too?

Christy Fernandez-Cull: Yeah. Great. Great question. So when we think about the three things that the mobile application. Is, is doing not just endeavoring to do, it’s to understand right, to learn by asking questions and then to act. So at the top of our, our mobile application, um, we, we know where the female is in her menstrual cycle, whether it be 28, 29 days or otherwise.

Um, and we’re not only tracking, um, and this is human in the loop, right? [00:14:00] What have you been drinking? So we use computer vision, machine learning algorithms to automatically detect the cal a intake, uh, how much you’re hydrated. And then we do a corrected. Body mass index scan. Um, and then, um, we also have our Da Vinci Companion.

So our Da Vinci Companion knows your history because your wearables right, dictate not only your heart rate, uh, history, but your your physical activity history. And, um, we’re able to basically nudge and say, here’s some activities that you might wanna entertain because of where you are in your cycle Now, um, in terms of the education aspect.

We do have sort of a, you know, Reddit, not that you’re, you know, tagging, but sort of a Reddit for women’s health. Um, so we’ve created our own correlation engine, data mining, tons of resources in the internet, but having a human in the loop. So a medical committee looking in to see. You know, how valid is this research with regards to which topic associated with women’s health outside of the menstrual health topic?

And so you as the [00:15:00] individual can ask questions in private, ask questions anonymously in our groups. Riffing off of what to expect when you’re expecting, it’s what to expect going through puberty, what to expect in your twenties, in your thirties and forties. And you know, while they might not. No, that is the, the medical committee won’t know it’s Christie Cole asking this question.

They’ll know it’s a female in this age range. Who’s asking this question? Is it prognostic diagnostic? That’s not our intention at this point in time because we’re data starved. Um, but at least, you know, we have folks weighing in and looking at the questions being asked, so we call it our Da Vinci Companion.

It’s our own correlation engine, trained on questions, trained on data and research articles in a variety of fields for women’s health. So that’s, that’s added, that’s embedded is this educational aspect. And then you get rewarded for asking questions, for doing workouts, um, for reading articles. Um, so we, we, we marry the qualitative with the quantitative in a l lighthearted like emoji style.

Did you like your run? Did you like the article, et cetera.

Naji Gehchan: That, [00:16:00] that’s fascinating. So, and you, you said something de companion, like

Christy Fernandez-Cull: Yes.

Naji Gehchan: Practically. That’s the vision, like getting and helping out as a companion women throughout their journey from puberty to uh, to adulthood.

Christy Fernandez-Cull: Yeah. We wanna democratize that right now.

To get a lot of these insights, you have to go to these technology first spas or proactively go to these sensor. Centers where you’re tethered to a variety of devices. And so in, in, in our vision and world, right? If you’re lining yourself with, with, uh, da Vinci and getting that, that body intelligence, I can write now on the phone with you, right?

Say, and, and we do have voice to text and text to voice embedded in the journal entry and in, in the article query it would say, Hey, hey, DaVinci, you know, I’m on day six. Um. What is the heart rate zone? Because I’m about to go, you know, on a run shortly after, after the call. Um, and it would do the voice to text, natural language processing.

It would analyze my data. It would analyze the [00:17:00] different heart, heart rate zones. Versus when I cycle, versus when I run. And it would say, Hey Christie, you should really hone in on, you know, heart rate zone two for this amount of time. And then peak at heart rate, zone three, just as an example, sounds a little more complicated, but you could also ask it, you know, Hey, what’s the day of my cycle and how much more hydrated should I be?

Or, or how, what should I eat? And that’s sort of the the use case goal, right?

Naji Gehchan: This is, this is great. Uh, I wanna ask you more a question about your journey as a, as an entrepreneur now, and is there any one advice you would give, um, a female founder in the health tech? Uh, in the health tech world?

Christy Fernandez-Cull: Yeah. I mean, I’ve, I’ve had a lot of folks, you know, highlight, Hey, there’s so many nos, um, that, that you’re gonna receive.

And, and outside of just thinking about how many nos. I think if you know, if you’re being empathetic and focused on the customer versus the product of what you wanna [00:18:00] create. ’cause there are many products that don’t see the light of day, but ensuring that you’re iterating with your customer. And that, you know, your heart is in the right place is, is really all that matters.

And understanding how to fail quickly, as counterintuitive as that sounds. Um, and you know, when you need to feel inspired, this is way too many tidbits. But when you need to feel inspired, I mean go directly to your customer. A lot of the times where, you know, let’s face it, everyone has second thoughts. I, um, am no different like anyone else, which is, um.

There are these moments of inspiration where, you know, I’ll have conversations with our champions or uh, word of mouth, new folks that wanna be champions and they really hone in on, wow, I wish I had this like yesterday, or wish I had this in college. Um, and I’m excited to be part of this. Um, a lot of folks have just volunteered their time and I just feel like that’s a huge blessing and inspiration.

Uh, and a lot of, a lot of the times they don’t realize like they’re [00:19:00] inspiring me in that very moment, but try to find those, those, you know, nuggets of inspiration to keep you going. Yeah. And remember why you started, uh, what you were doing. Um. That’s what I would say that was, that was probably like five things in one.

And I know you asked for one.

Naji Gehchan: No, but this is, no, this is great. And actually you’re touching something super important, obviously in healthcare, as you know, like I’ve been in, in this field for years. Uh, I love how you framed that. It’s when you need to be inspired, go to your customer. Yeah. And, and it’s so true.

It reminds you of your purpose and it reminds you why you’re doing what you’re doing. And this is part of what you’re doing in the health tech world. Uh, a any, uh, learning or, uh, thoughts moving from you work for large corporations. You brought, uh, really breakthrough innovations, uh, in these and kind of futuristic views to now being an entrepreneur, setting up yourself by yourself, and now building a full, uh, a full team and company with this vision.

Any. Any major learning? [00:20:00]

Christy Fernandez-Cull: Yeah, I would say, you know, it is hard. Um, and, and all the things that I’ve worked on, um, I would say starting a company, um, and sales in particular right, uh, is extremely hard. And so I think what’s important is, um, not just to think about your customer and the product that you’re trying to bring to, to, you know, however small or big, really change the world.

And in this case, women’s health. Um, it’s, it’s. A long time in coming to kind of flip the switch and script on how it gets funded and, and, and addressed, um, let alone just including women in clinical trials, um, is to understand your own individual differentiation, right? What is your unique value proposition and what makes you stand out as an individual compared to others who do what you do, right?

So it’s okay if at some point along your journey you’re like, you know what, this just is. For me, like I said, I think [00:21:00] introspectively, right? We should also assign ourselves objectives and key results and keep ourselves honest to our mission and vision. And I think equally important, if not more, is thinking about the selfless act of your putting this energy in for that greater good.

Um, and so part of that is being empathetic with others, but also being empathetic. To yourself, right? Acknowledging your own strengths and and weaknesses. And it’s okay to have weaknesses. Um, I have far too many to, to elaborate on this, on this call, but I think it’s really important, um, um, to really balance that with what you’re trying to achieve and, and acknowledge.

Don’t be too hard on yourself. I think it’s really easy to be hard on oneself, whether it’s body image or body mindset. Et cetera with the list goes on. Um, so that’s, you know, that’s another thing I would say. And whether it’s a big company, um, you know, fortune five, fortune 100, or a company that you’re [00:22:00] launching right in the hopes of an exit or a, um, um, or an IPO, um, knowing your value is critically important.

Um, because even if you don’t know, someone else is gonna see and know your value. Um, and, and maybe not be, you know. Equitable or equal in, in, in how they value your, your, um, insider service, et cetera. So, um, again, that was, that was probably five things or three things, um, than, than what you asked for. But that, that’s what I say.

Just having been in on both sides now.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks for sharing. Uh, Christie, I’m, I’m gonna give you now a word and I’d love your first reaction to it. Yeah. The first one is leadership.

Christy Fernandez-Cull: Yeah. Um, when I think about leadership, um, I really think about, um, moral compass. So some folks call it servant leadership.

Um, others call it moral leadership. Um, and it takes me back again to, to, to my childhood and the foundation [00:23:00] that, um, really I grew from and learned about. So, um. Kind of riffing off of the last question in this question. It’s, you know, whether I’m in a big corporate, um, or small to mid, mid to enterprise company, um, you know, one thing that I’ve held with me is my moral compass, right?

And not only holding myself accountable, but holding also the leaders around me accountable and how we, um, you know, build others up. Right? Um. And empower others to grow alongside with us. So, um, yeah, that’s what I think about when I think about leadership. It’s that empathy, it’s that love, it’s that kindness, it’s that compassion.

And I’ve been on the receiving end of both folks that just amazingly were empathetic at, really at the top of, of the C-suite grid to, you know, the opposite. Those that may not, may not follow a moral, uh, or servant leadership style.

Naji Gehchan: What about women’s health? [00:24:00]

Christy Fernandez-Cull: Oh goodness. You know, when I think about that, I just, um, my heart just opens.

Why to I, I want change, right? I want more, uh, proactivity, whether it be funding. I mean, we’ve seen the executive order and the push not only at ARPA H but the executive order, right? Where a hundred million was allocated, tens of billion was, was requested. Right? And you can kind of see those numbers and, and think to yourself, well.

That sounds quite small. Um, but, but the point of the matter is changes upon us, you know, um, the importance, equal importance is the follow through, right? Uh, not just that one inflection, but the follow through of multiple inflections. Um, where, you know, we’re not, um. Still hearing the theme of, hey, women are not little men.

Right. Which, that’s by Stacey Sims. That’s not coined by myself. But, um, in saying that, she’s saying a whole lot, which is, you know, there, there is a difference physiologically and we really need [00:25:00] to pay attention. Um, so yeah, that’s what I think of is, is tons more change needs to be, it needs to happen. And I’m feel blessed to even play a little small role in, in, in helping that change or facilitating.

Naji Gehchan: Oh, you’re playing more than a small one.

Christy Fernandez-Cull: What

Naji Gehchan: about, uh, da Vinci?

Christy Fernandez-Cull: Oh, you know, well, so many words. I mean, he’s, a lot of folks don’t realize that he’s a father of wearables. Uh, granted he didn’t live in a digital era, but from an analog standpoint, he was the first to put together a step counter, uh, with pulley and so forth.

So, um, he’s an engineer, he’s an artist. Um, and contrary to his, um. Folks in his time, he, you know, elevated women instead of sexualizing them. Um, I’m neither saying that was right or wrong, it’s just a fact of what he did. And then when I think about, you know, what we’re building in our platform of, you know, empowering really just to be better, right?

Be [00:26:00] better for women’s health. Um, I don’t know. It makes me smile, gives me, you know, butterflies in my stomach for, for multiple reasons. Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: The last one is spread love in organizations.

Christy fernandez-Cull: Oh, I mean, I, I come from a family of so much love and compassion and it’s sort of focused on, you know, how you leave others with your words, with your actions, um, whether it’s by faith or whether it’s just by, um, what you stand for.

And so I think there’s a whole lot of. Love through mentorship, love through allyship, love, through just, you know, wanting folks to be better if they wanna be better, and giving them that, that, you know, that gateway right. Um, to, to, to be better. Um, so I think it’s a much needed. I love this, the, your, you know, your, your podcast and, and I love.

The message that it’s conveying. I think we need more of it, [00:27:00] especially in organizations because, um, we talked about moral leadership and servant leadership. The challenge to making that a reality is the ego, right? Of many individuals. So the more love that we can kind of springboard off of, you know, that naturally goes hand in glove to minimizing that ego.

So, um. Yeah, that’s what I think of. We need, we need more love in organizations.

Naji Gehchan: I, I certainly do agree. I need a final word that wisdom, Christie for, uh, healthcare leaders.

Christy Fernandez-Cull: Oh. You know, I mean, I think find, you know, pay attention to the customer, find what you’re most passionate about with regards to the customer need and out of passion.

And to your previous question, love. Right. That really transcends, um. Or is a mechanism for transcending any blockers that you might have, whether it be in your organization or whether it be from a regulatory, uh, [00:28:00] standpoint, right? And we saw a lot of that, especially through COVID, right? A lot of organizations basically took their hats off of profitability.

Don’t get me wrong, they did make money, but the impetus and goal was how do we save lives, right? So now, if we think about today, how do we get communities? To embody that same sort of principle, not saving lives, but rather, which it could, it could ripple effect into that, but like helping communities blossom, um, and health is a great way to make that happen because lots of health solutions are not democratized, um, to the majority that, that, that quite frankly need, need.

Thank you. Another word I would say is thank you so much for having me, Naji. It’s been a delight and a pleasure.

Naji Gehchan: Know Kristi, thank you for, uh, being with me today. It’s, uh, it’s really awesome to catch up and have this, uh, conversation. So thanks, thanks again for being here and for your great words. I, I will, what, what you said, help community blossom.

This is powerful and I think it’s [00:29:00] our responsibility at healthcare leaders to make that happen. So thank you again for being with me.

Christy Fernandez-Cull: Thank you.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for listening to the show! For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to Spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to Spread Love in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast, where we explore leadership with purpose. I’m Naji, your host, joined today by Michael Pietrack. Michael has been recruiting in the pharmaceutical industry for nearly 20 years. He and his team has successfully placed more than a thousand pharmaceutical professionals during that time, leaving a positive impact on the industry.

Michael started his recruiting career with the Alpine Group, where he led the medical affairs search practice. In 2015, he co founded TMAC Direct, an executive search firm exclusively devoted to medical affairs. Under Michael’s leadership, the company was named one of the top U. S. executive search firms by Forbes.

In 2023, Michael joined Kay Bassman to lead the expansion of the already established and high performing pharmaceutical and biotech search practice. Aside from recruiting, Michael is also a speaker, recruiting trainer, and an accomplished author, and was recognized as one of PhRMA’s 100 most inspiring people by PhRMA Voice.

Michael is also a fellow podcast host on the PhRMAverse podcast, where he engages in insightful conversations with industry leaders. Michael, it is so good to have you with me today. Thank you so much. Thanks for the nice introduction. First, I would love to hear more about your personal story. What brought you to be a recognized talent recruiter and specifically the pharma and biotech industry?

Michael Pietrack: Well, it was really an accident. I started off as a baseball coach. I was a baseball player in college. Didn’t really know what I wanted to do with my life, so I got into coaching, and I had a knack for recruiting, and at that point, you’re recruiting players and talking to their parents, trying to get them to come to your school and be on your team, and then at the end of that run, because it was not a lot of money to be made in that world, I hooked up with a pharmaceutical industry recruiting agency called the Alpine Group, as you mentioned, and they put me in a place called Medical Affairs, And, uh, I just tried to make the best of it using all the skills I had learned as a recruiting coordinator in the baseball world.

So that’s how it happened. It was an accident. I wasn’t seeking it. And then you never left. Never left. Never left. And now I can’t. And now I can’t even imagine

Naji Gehchan: doing anything else. So what is, what is for you, what’s attractive in the medical industry? And I know we’ve talked like the first time we chatted about the impact that you can have obviously on, on people’s lives and as a recruiter, you place those leaders who will have that impact.

So I’m, I’m intrigued. Why can’t you see yourself anywhere else now?

Michael Pietrack: Well, when I first started, you know, it was really, I like talking to people that were intelligent. I felt like that was, um, that was just something that, that really meant a lot to me on a daily basis. But now it’s really about patience.

You know, now that I’m getting older, now that I’ve, you know, have lost a parent, now that I’ve seen my friends go through different kinds of therapies and diseases and things. I realized that we’re all going to end up being patients at some point in time. And so I really just like being involved in this industry.

And as a person that can’t really go and affect a patient’s life, you know, but putting the best possible person in the best position to help is sort of how I help patients. So I get a lot of gratification around that.

Naji Gehchan: And as you said, we’re all here for that purpose. So certainly by, by doing what you’re doing, you’re helping the industry reach our purpose even faster and better.

Uh, hiring is probably one of the hardest thing and it’s the core of what you’ve done. I love the similarities you said with being a coach, uh, in the baseball field. Um, can you share with us, like, what are the top three recommendations for a hiring manager to think of? Regardless of the role, but more as

Michael Pietrack: Oh, good question. I think about this a lot. I think the very first thing that a hiring manager needs to know is really know what they want. Sometimes I feel like a hiring manager is shopping and they’re just kind of browsing. They don’t really know exactly what they want. So have a clear picture of what you want, what good looks like and be able to act on that.

The second thing is not to hire clones of yourself. Okay. I think one of the biggest mistakes rookie, um, I’d say leaders make is they try to find another one of them instead of trying to find a person that fits strategically within the team, maybe complements somebody else as far as being different. And then I would say, you know, trust your gut.

A lot of hiring is just gut instinct. And what I tell hiring managers is if it’s not an immediate yes. It’s a no. So in to move people in and out, like sometimes a hiring manager will want to put somebody on hold or on the back burner. But look, those people aren’t gonna get hired. Just let him go, give him dignity and let him move on.

So those would be the big three things. Know what you want to do. Uh, you know, don’t hire clones of yourself. And if it’s not a if it’s not a yes, it’s a no.

Naji Gehchan: I love those advice. So now if I look at it from a talent being hired, how do you, um, what’s your relationship with, uh, people being hired? Any different advice?

Or is it kind of the mirror of what you just said?

Michael Pietrack: No, it is different. I can tell you as a recruiter, a lot of people that are in my seat only do what we call marketing. So they’re only trying to get the jobs. And then they. outsource with a team of their own to go and get the candidate. But, uh, what I do is I do all of it.

Like, I love the candidate journey and, and being a, a character in that chapter of their life. I just love that. So for me, I would say the big three for candidates is to. No, where you’re trying to take your career to use a baseball quote, I’m probably gonna misquote it. But Yogi Berra said, Look, if you don’t know where you’re going, any road will take you there.

And so the same thing, you know, you want to make sure that the move that you make is on strategy and you have a clear picture of the strategy. Otherwise, everything’s gonna sound kind of good. The next thing I would do is, is to let the person, I guess, tell the person that the people that they’re going to work with is almost the most important thing.

So the job has to check the people box. So really diving in, getting to know the individual that you’re going to either report to and also the strategy of the overall leadership team is paramount. And then three, don’t be scared to take risks. All the leaders that I interview on the Pharmaverse podcast, they always say they took some big risk that catapulted their career.

So I would say those are the, those are the big three things. Know where you’re going, make sure that people box is checked, and also don’t be scared to make risks, take

Naji Gehchan: risks. So you just mentioned your podcast and these are great advice for, for our listeners on both sides. Tell us a little bit more about your podcast.

Michael Pietrack: Well, again, another accident. Um, well, I, I was thinking about starting a podcast, but you know, in my world, there’s a lot of podcasts like in medical affairs. A lot of my competitors do a really nice job with their podcasts and just like a pharmaceutical company doesn’t want to be late to the market. I didn’t want to either.

But I, as I was moving to Kay Bassman into a larger leadership role, I started interviewing established leaders that I had in my network that I really respect. And I started picking their brains about leadership. Well, one of the guys I was interviewing. Said, oh man, I wish that was recorded. And then the light bulb went off for me and, uh, and I, so I started a leadership podcast, it’s called the Pharma Averse Podcast.

And the reason I call it the pharma averse is I wanna pull leaders from all different areas of the universe of pharma to get sort of the best practices about leadership from a, a, a lot of different people. Sort of a composite sketch of best leadership advice. And so that’s how the pharma averse was, was, um.

Was originated and it’s really Interesting to be on this side of a podcast now,

Naji Gehchan: well, and you have, uh, so you’ve had several interviews now, um, approximately 20, I think, uh, and great, uh, leaders and you, you talked about different topics within, uh, pharma, healthcare, biotech, is there like a one big learning from all those different interviews or one big threat that you would take?

Michael Pietrack: I would say that, you know, your podcast, the focusing on love, um, is really something that I see woven through, I would say 80 percent of the people that I interview is genuinely caring, like not, not fake caring. But genuine caring and people can know, know the difference when a leader genuinely cares about their people, they’re going to be a very strong leader.

So all the people that I’ve been interviewing that has been the most consistent thing mentioned is caring or in your your case love.

Naji Gehchan: I love that. It reassures me. You know, mine is biased. Obviously, I interview healthcare leaders who believe in this. It’s good to hear that within our industry, it’s 80%. As you said, people you interviewed.

Um, I’m going to move now to a section where I’ll give you a word. I’d love your first reaction to it.

Michael Pietrack: Okay, I’m ready.

Naji Gehchan: So the first one is leadership.

Michael Pietrack: The first word that comes to my mind is leading from the front. Is that a word? Yeah, that’s fine. Tell us more. Well, so, uh, another thing that I see not only in my own experience, but also through interviewing other leaders is, Leadership is not from the back, cracking the whip, getting the, you know, the, uh, the sled dogs to go in a certain way.

That’s not really what leadership is. It’s really like someone leading from the front, being like the expedition lead saying, we’re going to go up that mountain. I’m going to show you the way, and I’m going to lead from the front. And then as you’re leading from the front, you kind of. Slowly move the way back, making sure everybody in your expedition is is doing okay.

No one’s falling behind. Um, and so that’s why I say leading from the front. What about legacy legacy? The first thing? Well, I wrote a book called Legacy, so that’s the first thing that came to my mind is the book. But really, legacy is more about the qualities that you exude that people then begin to emulate.

And that’s what this legacy book is about, is about more about the legacy. You leave your Children, and it’s more about the actions that you do. So the actions that you take. And that’s true in leadership. It’s true in parenting. You know, it’s, it’s like you don’t want to be the parent that’s smoking a cigarette saying, don’t smoke.

You know, um, you want to lead, you want to lead and, and, and show them what good looks like. And then that’s the legacy that you leave, uh, the, the generation behind you or, or your team. The third one is personal brands. Personal brand. I would say personal branding is, is very similar to legacy. It’s about what you represent.

It’s the, um, it’s like if you think of, um, any brand, you’re going to have an immediate reaction to that brand. And the same thing with when you hear someone’s name, what that, what they feel, what they think, what they remember, all of that is what your personal brand is about. Now, some of that you can influence You know, through branding, you know, through social media or whatever.

Uh, but most of that is again, how you act, what you do, what you stand for, what you do in times of crisis, what you do when you’re, when you have to make a big decision, all those, uh, create your personal brand.

Naji Gehchan: So, and these two legacy and personal brands, obviously you wrote a book on legacy and I know you also wrote articles about personal branding.

I want to expand a little bit more on, on this topic. I’ve, you know, we talk a lot about it. Do we need to care about our personal brand? And like my first reaction to people is whether you like it or not, you would have a brand, right? There’s no, you can’t like decide not to have a personal brand. It exists.

It’s a matter of. How you shape it, do you want to touch it, et cetera. So as you worked on it, is there anything, how, how do you push people to think about their personal brand as a leader and is there any advice on how to do it in a certain way for you to achieve what you want to achieve in life, I would say.

Michael Pietrack: Yeah. So let me take the first part first. Should you have one? And like you mentioned, you’re going to have one whether you want to or not. Um, but it has to be strategic. A lot of the people that I talk to about personal branding, they really don’t want to put themselves out there. They really don’t want to like, they don’t, they’re not big fans of social media or whatever the case may be.

There’s something that they don’t want to be involved in and they think they have to. Make it all about them. But like even you with this podcast. I mean for you. It’s about sharing love within organizations It’s not about you. It’s about love same thing with my podcast. It’s not it’s not the Michael P track show Let me go on a rant every other week.

It’s let me showcase a leader and let’s learn from them And so all of that is establishing our personal brands So, uh, actually we have a podcast coming up about personal branding with someone. I think that’s really doing a great job of it. And all he does is highlight how good. Employees are every post he puts out.

There is. Let me tell you how good my colleague is. Well, so, so if someone is not really like into personal branding, even if you’re showcasing other people, your personal, your branding yourself as someone who’s selfless, someone who puts other people first, you know, someone that’s a great leader and someone that you I’d want to work for.

And so all that creates a personal brand. So how do you do it? Well, the first thing that you have to do is you have to think about what is your medium? Like, are you going to be a podcast host? Are you going to be very active on LinkedIn? Is Twitter your thing? Or is there some other forum that you want to?

That has an audience that you want to brand to like, for instance, you know, any other brand may have a commercial and they may choose to do that at the Super Bowl because that’s when the biggest audience is there. Well, maybe your biggest audience is linked in. I know mine is. So for me, I do a lot of my personal branding on linked in.

So once you establish where your forum is, then it’s all about frequency and content. And a lot of people that I talked to about this are like, Oh, I don’t want to have to come up with content and, and, uh, everything is content, whether it’s, you’re having a review lunch with Jennifer, or you’re having a team meeting in Boston and you guys go see some, uh, iconic element in that city, whatever the case may be, those, that content, everything is content when you put it out there on LinkedIn or whatever the form is, you have to be consistent with it.

So I’ll stop there because that’s a lot of information, but that’s what I would say is, is how to do

Naji Gehchan: it, but this is great information. And as you said, consistency about the content, I think is a, is a great piece of advice, uh, along with all the other pieces that you brought. Thank you. The fourth one is spread love and organizations.

Yeah.

Michael Pietrack: Well, I got to tell you, the first thing that I thought about was. First Corinthians 13 four, uh, which is in the Bible says, I have it pulled up here. Love is patient. Love is kind. Love is not jealous. It does not brag. It does not get puffed up. And it goes on. And then in verse eight, it says love never fails.

So when I heard this podcast about spreading love and organizations, the first thing I went to is love is. And when I think about my own personal leadership style, I fail. Often, but this is what I’m trying to do. I’m trying to be patient. I’m trying to be kind. I’m trying not to brag about my own accomplishments, but highlight other people.

I’m trying not to get puffed up when when agitated or when my ego is bruised. Um, I don’t, you know, in the list goes on. And I know that if I do that, A drug may fail, a business initiative may fail, but love is not going to fail. And so for me, when you say love, I think of, I think of that scripture. Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you, Michael, uh, for sharing also vulnerably, uh, a part of, uh, you as a leader. So I really appreciate that. Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders? I

Michael Pietrack: would say what I’ve learned and speaking more about love is the best leaders. It’s not about them. When I’m on the phone with someone and they’re talking about their career, there really are two types of people.

There’s the people that are really worried about the people around them. Helping them develop his leaders. And then there’s people that are all about their own career and their own career progression. And sometimes when they’re talking to a recruiter, they are more eye focused. And that’s that’s understandable.

But I would say the best leaders are not hung up on titles. They’re not hung up on anything other than the scope of the work and the people they’re gonna do work with. And so if I could impart one bit of advice, not only to candidates, but also to leaders, is think about the work. Not the title of the job, not what it pays, not what the equity is.

Yeah, those things are important, but they should be secondary to how, how vital the work is. How much, uh, intrinsic value will you derive from doing the work? Who will you be doing the work with? Is this a team that you want to go and try to win the Superbowl with, even if you’re the backup running back?

So that would be my advice.

Naji Gehchan: These are incredible advice. Uh, for everyone listening, I truly thank you so much, Michael, for being with me. It’s been a great conversation. I’ll make sure also we, um, for my listeners, you will have, uh, your podcast also featured to listen to some of the incredible, uh, leaders that you interviewed.

Uh, and we can all expand and learn as, uh, as leaders, podcasters on the different podcasts that we have. So thanks again for being with me today. It’s been a pleasure. My pleasure too. And we have to have you on the podcast. We will. We will. Thanks for listening to the show. For more episodes, make sure to subscribe on spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to Spread Love in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast, where we explore leadership with purpose. I’m Naji, your host, joined today by Jason Bhardwaj, an experienced life science executive with a broad background leading in startups and 20 years working in healthcare. Currently, Jason is the CEO of Nova and Cora, developing a recombinant protein-based treatment for DEB, Dystrophic Epidermolysis Bullosa.

Prior to this, Jason served for six years as CEO of another dermatology focused biotech. Jason has led or advised across a wide range of technologies, as well as indications in healthcare. Prior to life sciences startups, Jason studied biomedical engineering at Duke, received a master’s degree in business from Harvard and developed a decade of foundational experience in consulting, working with some of the largest healthcare innovators on a full functional suite of critical challenges.

Jason and his family are my neighbors here in Uten, Massachusetts, where he is involved in the community as a soccer coach, marathon runner, and most recently via a bid for the school committee. Jason, it’s so good to see you again and have you with me today.

Jason Bhardwaj: Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited.

Naji Gehchan: I’d love for us to hear more about your personal story. What’s behind the lines of your journey from biomedical engineering to consulting and now being a CEO of a biotech. Thanks.

Jason Bhardwaj: Yeah. Where to begin? I mean, I, I think, um, Healthcare and science have been a theme for me for a very, very long time, I think both by natural affinity.

But, you know, my, uh, both my parents studied engineering. Um, my mom was a mechanical engineer. She studied at Rice is where she met my dad, who was a PhD in material science there. And, um, so I, you know, I think that there was an infusion of that. You know, scientific thinking into our house, like we had the white board above the dining room and my dad would give us lectures when he came home, like that type of thing.

So that’s, that’s definitely the environment. And so, um, you know, I think there was a, a number of, I loved chemistry, uh, that was probably my favorite subject in high school. Um, and then when I got to, um, thinking about undergraduate institutions, et cetera, You know, Duke was really on my radar for biomedical engineering, and something had started to clip for me at that stage around biology, life sciences, and medicine, you know, and all those things at that naive stage for me were kind of on the table, and it felt like a good place to go and kind of figure it out.

Um, and so that, that was an important juncture for me, and I did think about pursuing medicine, and not really sure I had a great framework at that stage in my life for making the decision, but decided, you No, I wanted to point more towards an intersection of business and science. And so I studied biomedical engineering and economics, you know, uh, some institutions, uh, don’t have a quote unquote vocational business program.

Um, so that was my way of sort of, uh, doing, doing. That intersection academically as they were and, um, and then strategy consulting was meant to be like sort of a few year gig to figure out where to land in the health care ecosystem and I loved it and it ended up being more like a decade. But I always did have that sort of I want to build something type of an itch.

Um, and I, I did feel like the learning was there and I just love the people. Where I was working at Bain and, um, and so, you know, that’s, that’s what kept me there for ultimately bookends, a full decade. And finally, it was one of these, like, if I don’t push myself out of the nest now, like, when is it going to ever happen?

And, and so started, um, doing smaller, uh, healthcare, uh, ultimately life focus, life science focused startups. Um, and now it’s been a decade of doing that. And I’ve, I’ve just loved it. Um, and I, and I wouldn’t go back, but. The training and the exposure was really fantastic.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks for sharing, Jason.

What’s your biggest learning? As you said, now you’ve been on a decade building team, building biotech, being the CEO. What is your biggest learning through the past years of doing that?

Jason Bhardwaj: Yeah, I mean, there’s so many learnings. I mean, maybe to this, you know, discussion we’re just having of finding your path and what is it that you want to do?

You know, I think, um, There’s something to life science startups or, you know, or, or, you know, um, building a project from, from early stages. That, uh, for me personally, and I think everyone has their own personal index for, you know, gratification, satisfaction, et cetera. But the wins feel really big when you start at these stages and you bring something from, you remember when it was sketch on a napkin ish.

And, and so when you get the milestones like, um, IND moving forward into clinic. Or, you know, a successful readout from a clinical study or anything in between, you know, they, they feel really big. Um, and so that personally for me has been a real learning of, uh, find your place in the ecosystem that has that right balance of effort and gratification.

And look. There are losses too and you feel those too and you have to be able to make those, that kind of, um, arc work for you personally. And then I get why some people prefer a different, you know, portfolio approach or something like that. But for me, uh, that was a big learning is find your place in the ecosystem where you can add value.

And it really is a personal fit for your, for, you know, how you derive satisfaction.

Naji Gehchan: And it certainly is, as you said, humbling and gratifying at the same time, as you know, like this is something I also do. And. As you were speaking, like, each one of those myostones is so important and so big, and at the end of the day, you’re bringing hope and hopefully a new medicine to patients as each one of those myostones is hit, and as you take this molecule, From a piece of paper and to the bench preclinical and all those faces as we both know from, from that, um, experience, as you said, like building a project, building a company, uh, I’d love to hear more about your people experience while building those companies.

How do you think about building a team in a biotech to develop those breakthrough medications?

Jason Bhardwaj: Yeah. Um, the projects that I’ve worked on have been at the stage and scale as independent startups that we’ve had a very virtual model. Um, and so I think it really in that model, it really amplifies the importance of what you’re just describing of.

people decisions. Um, and so both of these, um, companies, you know, the one, the team I’m building now, and we’ve, we’ve just started hiring the core team. Um, and then the last company, you know, um, single digit size core teams. And as anyone who’s in the space knows, then you, you have a sort of portfolio of advisors, contractors, and other folks getting involved, CROs, et cetera, um, to augment that.

And so, you know, on both fronts, the, the sort of core team and The folks that you build around that, um, in that type of a setting that the people decisions are so, so important. Um, because, you know, if you have a sort of a weak leg of the stool, so to speak, or, you know, you really feel that, especially as a leader, um, you end up spending in order when there are weak legs of the stool, you end up spending way too much time supporting the leg instead of You know, kind of overall strategy and moving things forward.

And so that, that I think is the key lesson, especially when, when you’re architected that way, that the core is really important. And then, you know, similarly, though, I think, um, really making sure that you have the right partners. And for that, again, it’s a little bit like placing the ecosystem dependent.

There are partners who are really high capability that, um, are not geared to work with smaller stage startup entrepreneur. And so really, um, depending on the type of partnership, et cetera, like, um, having a, a, um, a sense of. What your criteria are and making those decisions, um, appropriately are really important as well.

You know, if you commit to a CRO for your key study and you just find that they aren’t nimble enough for the particular areas of your disease state or recruiting or organizing the sites, uh, it can be really, really painful to sort of switch gears.

Naji Gehchan: So I want to ask one more question about the core team, as you said, like, it’s hard to build a core team, uh, hard to hire the right people.

So how do you think about this as you’re hiring? Is it something, is there like one philosophy that you have throughout the past decade on hiring the winning team, uh, for, to help you build this, the biotech that you’re building?

Jason Bhardwaj: Yeah, I I’m gonna have to think about that. I mean, I the ones philosophy. It’s been so situational.

Um, you know, I’ll just give the example of how just having hired our first team member for a new team, you know, um, it for us right now. Manufacturing is the key. And so, you know, I think the framework and we were maybe it’s it’s a positive time to be hiring in the market, but we had some really great candidates.

And so, you know, really trying for that particular linchpin role for us, balancing the sort of, you know, the program management have because there’s so many resources. This role is going to need to direct versus, um, the thought leadership component, which is really do they have. Um, the requisite detailed expertise in the functional areas that really, really matter, you know, for us, it was downstream in particular, uh, development, uh, uh, for, for CMC of a recombinant protein, you know, that what I, what I do sort of ascribe to is that, you know, aphorism of, If you hire a B player, they hire C players, you know, so we really, really, um, I put an inordinate amount of time on the hiring process.

If there’s a rule there, it’s like, anytime I feel like I’m spending way too much time on, you know, the process or or number of candidates or, you know, orchestrating, you know, what my questions are, the interview versus my academic collaborator versus our CMC advisor. We put a ton of time and effort into that.

I’m glad we did. You know what I mean? Like the returns felt. So I don’t know that there was really, um, like a philosophy as much as a, like, making those investments to really have as high quality of processes you can and, and, and being very clear on what the particularities of that particular role are to, to, to make sure it, um, it, the person is set up to, to be the linchpin we need them to be, I think was really key.

Naji Gehchan: Awesome. Uh, another area you’re passionate about, uh, and as you were talking about your, uh, your dad,

I’m going to ask again the question. I’m not sure if you heard it, but there was. Okay, another area you’re passionate about, Jason, and as you were talking about your dad giving lectures, it reminded me probably of something you are working on currently. You’re passionate about community and education, too, and this is something you said from your very early beginning you’ve been very passionate about.

Can you tell us a little bit more about your work and involvement there, too? Because I feel everything is kind of interlinked at the end of the day.

Jason Bhardwaj: Yeah, yeah, that’s well, let me first address the analogy and then, uh, the specifics. So, um, yeah, I really do think that, um, a whatever it is a sort of learning mindset is so key to especially in our role and frame of work.

I mean, this is not, um, producing widgets. There is so much. Art and high minded science into what we’re doing and uncertainty. And so there is a lot of, you know, we’re students in life sciences. Absolutely. Um, yes, I, I do have, as you alluded to in the introduction, a new, um, side project, which is, um, school committee, um, bid here in Newton and Newton, Massachusetts and, um, you know, I think, yeah, absolutely.

There’s a lot of motivations for that. The biggest, of course, is having two elementary school kids, um, and then, which, um, many of my parents share that, and so, so that’s the skin in the game, and but I think, um, yes, there, there’s a lot of family history, not only what I mentioned with, um, you know, the lectures at dinner, but my grandmother was a, um, elementary school teacher and then principal.

Um, my mother went into, uh, teaching later in her career, um, English as a second language with my brothers in, uh, pre kindergarten education, and, you know, I, I didn’t pursue those paths, but I do, I do have a little bit of the bug. And so this maybe felt like a way to scratch an itch, I guess. Um, and not just that being involved in education, but sort of giving back in some mission oriented way.

Um, it sort of kind of coalesced for me. Um, and yeah, I was in between roles, uh, and had already been involved both in the community as a coach and other ways. a room parent and involved in the schools, but really started volunteering and signing up for whatever I could. And a buddy of mine was like, you, I think I was, you know, philosophizing around the soapbox about an issue.

And it was like, you should run for school committee. And my initial reaction was that’s crazy, but it sort of started a process. Um, that’s led to a few weeks ago, formally announcing and have. wonderful support from, you know, uh, other parents in the community who are helping me. So I’ve, I’ve learned so much.

Think about, uh, you know, ways to learn. I’ve learned so much about, um, schooling and the history of Ed, of Newton, which is a very, very rich history of education. The twists and turns that led us to where we are today. Um, and I think it’s an exciting time to get involved. So, yeah, that’s it’s it’s a long wind up for, um, an election in November of next year.

But, yeah, I’ll be running for my board. We’re 3, which, um. Every ward in Newton has a rep, there are eight, and, um, the entire town votes. So it’s, uh, that’s a totally new educational experience for me as well, the political one.

Naji Gehchan: But this is, this is great, and having an impact early on, I know we talked a lot, a lot about curriculum, how this is done, and being involved in the community and, and the education piece.

I know you’re big on steam, obviously. Uh, I, you know, like this is great to see this involvement from you and what you’re trying to achieve for, uh, for our community. Obviously I’m biased. My kids are also in the, uh, the Newton public school. So, so this is, uh, something also very close to my heart. Uh, and it’s great to see people like you helping out, uh, with the educational system.

Uh, I would love now to move. To, um, a section where I’m going to give you a word and I would love your first reaction to it.

Jason Bhardwaj: Right. So the

Naji Gehchan: first, the first one is leadership.

Jason Bhardwaj: Yeah. Leadership. I think, uh, my reaction is it is so multifaceted and it means so many different things. So we all can be leaders, but just finding a way to have an impact, to collaborate, um, to, to, to have an idea and move it forward.

I mean, that’s leadership.

What about biotech? Biotech. I think biotech, um, it just jumps off the page as exciting science and a way to help people. Um, we have so many unsolved problems in the world, medically, and it’s really just moving forward so fast now. I just find so much constant excitement from hearing what’s happening in the ecosystem.

Naji Gehchan: The third one is about education. STEAM.

Jason Bhardwaj: Yes. You know, I Steam gets talked about the most with gender imbalances, etc. But to me, I think that that connects to me with just excitement. Um, you know, science. And math and engineering. I mean, obviously, these were what drove a lot of my academic interest, etc. But I, I think, um, they shouldn’t be esoteric.

They should be approachable and fun and dynamic. And that’s how the school system should continue to approach them. And yes, find ways to broaden it to make sure it’s accessible to everyone of of all segments. I think, especially here in Boston, it’s easy to say that. I mean, we’re such an. Mecca for, um, steam based careers.

And so why not make sure we’re, we’re providing the, the, um, the, the best, um, seeding ground for, for the future innovators. What about spread love and organizations? Yes. Well, spread love. I I’ve now become more acquainted and I think. Uh, the, the name is beautiful and, um, you know, I think, um, spreading insights and connecting with people who are passionate about what they do is, is what an amazing way, um, to, to spread the love.

So, so I, I’m very honored to be, to be, uh, part, a part of the, now the, the volume of, of cool insights and learnings.

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom, Jason, for leaders around the world?

Jason Bhardwaj: Yeah, I, I think, um,

what to say, I, I, um, I think there’s so many different ways to go out and be a leader and make a difference back to my comments on the versatility of leadership. And so I think finding that way you want to make an impact, perhaps that’s attuned to, like we were saying, you know, your emotional profile. And and where you are most excited about making a difference.

You know, I think that’s where, in my opinion, you know, folks of abilities in all different spheres will have their greatest impact because you really like if you’ve got energy for something, um, that’s where it’s going to jump off the page. And I certainly feel that way with biotech and in my current line of work.

But maybe just bridging briefly back over to the school stuff. I mean, my wife noticed it with me, you know, for me, it was as I, the buddy was like, should you run for the school committee? And I was sitting there in my bed at 1130 at night. Watching old school committee meetings at 1. 5x, you know, like on, on, on Newton TV, it’s like, man, I really have energy for this.

It’s not work. It’s like, it’s, it’s fun. It’s play in his, you know, with a serious tone to that. And, um, and so I think finding that, that energy as you, you know, draw the arc of your career, I think is, is really great. Um, fun and important and will be ultimately how people find their greatest impact.

Naji Gehchan: Yes, and how you framed it is so powerful.

Find the way you want to make a difference. And there’s no small difference, right? And this is what you’re, what we’re talking about here. The difference in your community from education to healthcare. And obviously ultimately what you’re doing in the biotech world, bringing innovations to patients. So thanks again for being with me today, sharing.

your experiences and also what your, uh, all the impact that you’re trying to bring across Newton and beyond. Uh, it’s been a real pleasure to have you with me today, Jason. Thank you. Fantastic. Thank you so much, Naji. Really appreciate it. Thanks for listening to the show. For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to spreadloveio.

com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host, joined today by Afaline Belisario, a leader who bridges East and West, technology and the human condition, and past and present. Born and raised in Tehran, in a family with its feet in the past and its head in the future, she led a successful career in high tech and international business in the U.

S. After earning her PhD from MIT. But writing had always been her passion. Having written professionally in pre revolutionary Iran, she has published in major papers, including the Boston Globe and an essay, Movies with My Aunt, as part of the anthology, Love and Pomegranates. Today, she mentors startups, teaches, and writes about the clash between tradition and modernity and how the past can shed light on our technology fueled future.

A music lover, she is also a Cambridge Chamber Ensemble Board member and writes for their newsletter as well as on Medium. Afarine continues to discover new destinations globally. It’s a great pleasure to host you and have you with me today.

Afarin Bellisario: Thank you very much. It’s a great pleasure and honor to be on your podcast and speak with yourself and your audience.

Naji Gehchan: First, I’d love to hear more about your personal story. We’ve met through MIT Sandbox, where you mentor. I know you’re passionate about startups, but I really want to start with your personal story, from your childhood in Iran to high tech business to now being an author, teacher, mentor. What’s in between the lines of this great, inspiring journey of yours?

Afarin Bellisario: Well, first and foremost is that, uh, MIT Sandbox. I am, um, uh, I’m curious. I just want to know. I, I, I am, I learn, I yearn to learn and I yearn to, uh, interact with people and I’m not afraid of change. And that’s a good thing for, um, um, and at heart, at least. Entrepreneur. I mean, I work for big corporation, but I always have been.

And how they enter entrepreneurial or entrepreneurial if you like, uh, kind of, uh, position within those, those companies. Um, my story, of course, begins in Iran. I grew up in a family that, uh, and the mom was just telling me that, oh, there are parts of, uh, Iranians who, uh, will always, you know, the people, my, my age, a lot of them who are born in North Tehran, for example, they know nothing about the South Tehran, but.

I was fortunate where my grandparents, for example, were traditional people living in Bazaar. My grandfather was a merchant and my, um, but my father was a university professor. He was a doctor. My aunts, um, you know, everybody was educated. So we all moved to North Tehran, if you will. We, we were in the traditional part of Tehran and then we moved north towards more westernized, more modern Tehran.

And of course, you know, uh, more, um, secular is the same, same thing with lots of American movies and American, um, books and things like that. So I was fortunate to have my feet, one foot in one side, one foot in another, because I can understand the problems of this. This, um, this difference will, will, will create, uh, I know, for example, ladies who worked in North Tehran, in North Tehran, you have to be, um, you know, look like somebody who stepped out of a Bloomingdale’s or Harold’s or whatever.

And in South Tehran, people were, women were expected to wear, Uh, headscarf. And so therefore it is very, very different, um, different way of life, different way of everything. And, you know, uh, there were ladies who wanted to, um, to, to, to get ahead in life and they went to school and stuff and, um, maybe get a job in North Tehran in some of these, uh, beautiful glass, uh, office buildings.

But, um, And I know that for a fact. So they would leave their house because women in Iran lived with their parents. They leave their house, um, you know, with their scarf and a very long skirt and no makeup and something in their route to their office. They would be transformed. It’s sort of like a, almost like a Superman, but that would transform.

And it wasn’t that they wanted to be deceptive, but, uh, but that’s also explains what happened later on in Iran, because it’s, um, you know, so, so I started there and, um, I, my mind is like a sip. I mean, I, my memory, I mean, I, all the people were talking about, I was, uh, I would listen to everybody. I would just, you know, record all the stories in my mind and I would make stories.

I would change the stories that my grandma said and modernize it and things of that sort. But when it, when it, when I grew up, when I went to high school, it was clear that You know, uh, making a living with the writing is not something that, uh, one can do without, uh, sacrificing their, um, a lot of their principles.

And I wasn’t about to do that, and I was lucky enough to have a, um, to be very good in math. And, uh, you know, so I said, okay, I’m gonna, and this is not, I’m not the only one. A lot of people. Uh, a lot of, um, intellectuals in Iran have done that. They have a day job where they do whatever that there is that they do.

And at nighttime, they go and, and write books. So I was, I planned to do that. So at some point in my life, and now, you know, things change. I am, you know, the Iran was, uh, very tumultuous, uh, I, uh, Um, you know, uh, coming to United States to study, and I went to New York University, and then I, uh, transferred to MIT, and, you know, uh, sort of, uh, then the revolution happened, and that’s another story.

One of, one of these days I will write about that, because I was here, uh, when hostages were taken. And of course it was sort of, I

finished my PhD job and I said, okay, it’s here. Whatever. Then, uh, um, you know, uh, um, like many young people, um, I wanted a family. I wanted a husband, I want children. Uh, so it’s a, it’s sort of, I said, okay, well food here, maybe someday, but in my, in my heart of hearts, I knew that, uh, my life. And I was very lucky again that I started here.

I didn’t go back. I can, um, spend some time there and, and then he started my life like my father did. And that’s in America, as you know, better than I do. When, when you go to work here, you work full time and then you have a young family and there’s no evening hours to write anything. And of course, uh, English is not my native language, so, um, I had to learn a lot of vocabularies, you know, sentences, things like that.

And of course I read. I read, but I read everything. I read good stuff, bad stuff, whatever, whatever comes along. Um, so it’s a long story, but Eventually, I got to a point where my kids were were older and gone, and I had a chance to not work full time. And at that point in time, I said, Okay, I’m going to do consulting, I’m going to do mentoring, because I really and truly believe in, in sandbox and you have gone through that as well.

And you know how How useful that is to a lot of engineers and and students. So, you know, I said, this is my life. I mean, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna spend more time in corporate America, which is wonderful when you are doing it. But, you know, and then I started writing and I, of course, you know, like everybody else, the first things first version wasn’t very good.

But I used my mentorship and my entrepreneurial spirit. I said, I’m gonna have people read it and people read the first chat first version. And everyone says a wonderful story. You got it right. You got it right. And then of course, you know, version two and three and four and five and As entrepreneurs, we all know that the passion and the inspiration is one percent, and then the hard work and sweat is 99.

Um, so here we are.

Naji Gehchan: I, I love that. And your book, uh, your book’s name is Silence Whispers.

Afarin Bellisario: Yes.

Naji Gehchan: And I’d love to, um, I’d love for you to tell us more about, uh, about the book. Uh, I have obvious questions about, is it fictional? Is it your story, a story of other women? So I’d love to hear your version of in between the lines of this book.

Uh, before we dig more into, uh, some leadership questions also, uh, I have for you, uh, with your, Leadership.

Afarin Bellisario: Absolutely. So the book, well, as I said, I’m a very curious person when I first started. Uh, having a little time to myself. Um, I looked at, uh, you know, the question of what happened in Iran has always been in my mind and also we are technologists.

I was in the first generation of the smartphones. I was one of the people who are evangelizing it from, from, uh, from standpoint of, I don’t know, technology, uh, you know, uh, as you have time to pause and, uh, my good friend, um, uh, you know, there are Many, many professors at, at Sloan, uh, Professor Ancona, for example, who writes about, uh, taking a pause, you know, take a pause, think about it.

And, and, uh, so I had a chance to take a pause and say, okay, what happened in Iran? And what happened in Iran, if you look at the modernization, you know, middle of the 18th century, 19th century, this was a, Truly backward country between two different empires, you know, one from the North Russians and one from the East, you know, British Empire, which was, of course, in India, and then the other side of it, the rest of Iran was Ottoman Empire, which was crumbling and, you know, it’s a segment of Europe.

Um, and of course, Germans were very much involved in it, and the colonial power were very much involved with Ottomans. So, Iran was sort of being squeezed from all sides, from other sides. So, Iran had no choice but modernize to try to defend itself, try to stay a sovereign nation. So technology came to Iran, science and modernity.

And the way it came to Iran was by a lot of students went outside and they studied and, you know, foreigners came to Iran and started businesses and some Iranians started businesses, you know, factories, things like that. But with this modernity came modern ideas and secure. secular laws, uh, right of women, you know, women can’t be, uh, confined to the home and the chador.

And Iranian women, uh, historically have been brazen enough. And so, uh, they became even more brazen. Uh, and, uh, so we, we had the, the, I think that the tipping point point was the Early 20th century when you had a very weak central government and that, you know, they started a constitutional monarchy. But then, you know, of course, World War One happened, Iran was being violated from left and right.

Eventually, Reza Shah came to power, Pahlavi dynasty started. But that 20th century, years, give or tell. And I, you know, I did a lot of studies. Again, research is what I, what I know how to do. I, that’s what Emma taught me. It’s, you gotta do, you gotta look for things. You can have answers for it. You have to hypothesize things.

And so after all of that, I, for a while I was thinking about, and these are very, um, This is an obscure, um, you know, corner of Iranian history from the standpoint of Americans, because, you know, Americans are very interested in 1953 and the coup d’etat and the evolution. They’re not going back far enough, whereas the root of all of these Breakup within, you know, Iranians are of two minds.

One mind wants to be more modern than Americans. One mind wants to be more restricted than Taliban. So, can’t live in the same country. Is it the same country? Is it, um, are we all And the other thing is that I, um, I Started seeing the, the same roots, uh, the same problems, um, in America, because we’re also getting further and further apart from each other.

So as I said, you know, our first idea was to write some, you know, a book, whatever. And then, believe it or not, one morning I woke up with the idea of Gohan, my, my main character, this young woman who is going through this transformative, um, life to transformative country. Um, and that transformations give her some, some chance as well as she can take advantage of that.

So, um, that’s, that was the first. Uh, first, uh, inclination, of course, as I said, uh, uh, then I learned I had mentors and I had teachers, uh, um, I was lucky to work with some of the good ones and I thought how to do, um, um, I learned how to do character development and the plot development. These all came later in the beginning.

I just wanted to tell the story of that time in Iran, uh, through the eyes of this young woman. that I imagined. So, so ask me any question you want.

Naji Gehchan: I, I, I love it. So I’m really, I want to learn more about this woman and how much you relate actually to her in your story. And also you talked about the unfortunate both sides that we’re seeing, the extremes.

That’s it. That we’re seeing all across the world these days. Yes. Yes. So I’d love for you to tell me her story, how you relate to her and how you’re living in a world of more and more extremism on all sides.

Afarin Bellisario: Yes. So number one, let’s just start with Gohar. When I first started to write the letter again and to write this story, I had no idea how to develop a character.

You know, this is a person who does this. That wasn’t good enough. And one of the things that I work with this lady, um, Ellie, uh, Ruben, that’s, um, you know, the two of us, she was both my editor and my mentor, you know, in terms of editing, she never changed anything. She just said, this doesn’t work. Go and change it, but change it in your own voice.

It was a process. Um, you know, sometimes I got angry and she got angry and we almost, uh, you know, but we work together and she’s a wonderful person. And, uh, today we still work together on the sequels, but, uh, the, the. The thing that she told me is that when I, when you develop a character, you gotta sometimes look into yourself.

You know, how would you do? How would you feel? How would you think? And so Gohar, um, you know, shares a lot of characters with me, but she’s not me. She’s a different person. She’s doing things that Gohar will do, not things that I would do. When I, one of the couple of things that we share. Is number one is that, uh, we both very curious.

So she’s curious. She’s always thinking, you know, sure. What, what is about telling me that? So this why is, is there. So it’s for me too. And the other thing is that we share the, I don’t sing. I, my voice is terrible,

but, uh, but I do, but I love music. I,

That also I share with her. So a lot of characters like that, and I share with her, but she’s not the only character in the book, and she’s certainly not Not the only female character in the book. Um, and for that, um, I basically went back and thought of a book that I knew in Iran and, uh, uh, brought out the stories and the way, you know, they, they manners and then they, they, their lives and things like that.

And when I say the book is, Women, it is true. Uh, it’s a fictional story. The, you know, obviously the, the characters don’t exist, didn’t existed, but people like, uh, and we

did exist. So in that case, it is true. Um, now, the other thing that is true, my great grandfather was Russian and he married my great grandmother who is, that is true too, there were lots of Russians who, like the Iranians, who came to Iran and lived there for a long, long time. Uh, my own, my, my, my, uh, father, My paternal side of the family, my grandfather was from, uh, originally from this town called Orduban, which is no longer in Iran.

It’s actually, um, in, uh, in Azerbaijan and Georgia. It is part of Azerbaijan, but, um, it is in part of Nakhchivan, which is also an interesting story. I want to go there someday, but not yet. Uh, so, uh, my grandfather, for example, was very, um, very active in trying, and there was a very short lived, uh, republic in the 1919, uh, right after World War I, um, in, in Azerbaijan.

And my grandfather was very much into um, you know, this is before my time, but she would tell me the stories and, and, uh, you know, uh, how he helped out, um, you know, he sent money and, and things like that. So, uh, some of those stories, again, I heard from them. Um, I augmented that with, uh, with lots of research, uh, clearly.

So, um, So here we are. So it is true that the Russians did marry Persians.

Naji Gehchan: Fascinating. And, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s such a region full of history, way more complex than what media or news want to tell us about all this part of the world. Um, so well, thank you for shedding a different light on, on this and a different experience. Before I will go to another section, but before that you, there’s something that’s really, uh, I’m intrigued as a philosophy that you have, which is the past can shed light on our technology future.

Yes. And you mentor a lot of startups, really building the future of tech through MIT and other institutions. I would love to hear more about the specific philosophy of yours.

Afarin Bellisario: Yeah, I mean, um, actually I just wrote a little piece for my, my newsletter. It’s a, it’s, We think that, you know, all of these things, I mean, this is the thing, technology is fast, human being and laws and things like that are slow.

Um, if you look at, for example, a hundred years ago when radio was becoming, um, I’m, I’m a student of history. I love history. When I teach entrepreneurship, um, I always have one or two case studies from some old companies there because there’s a lot of lessons. in their successes and also in their failures.

I mean, I talked to them about Polaroid, how great it was, and then it wasn’t, uh, about Lang Laboratories, and these are recent pasts, 50 years ago, 40 years ago, but they were all there. So, so there’s a lot of lessons. Underneath all of these technologies, a human being Who has to use it for good or bad. And every time that you have a radically new technology that is, um, rapidly commercialized.

So once everybody, I mean, yes, a lot of people knew about radio waves in 19, 1800s, but it wasn’t until 1920s that radio became a common place and people went out and bought it. And, you know, there were all kinds of. Stories about what what business model would this thing work at and how, uh, vicious it could be.

I just found an article in a magazine written in 1929, uh, titled radio curse or blessing. So, so, so change radio with the Internet, with AI, with whatever you want. At the end of the day, in the beginning, all new technologies that are radical are both fascinating to people and also scary. But at the end of the day, we just have to come to a, um, come to live with them, to use them, the way we need to use them.

We, we can’t have them rule over us. I mean, and human agency is what makes us happy. I’m happy because this book and read it or not. Um, if somebody constantly tells me, read this book, read, I won’t, uh, because I’m actually a defiant person. That’s another trait I, I share with my, uh, with my hearing. Um, anything on the face value.

So we need to first of all, from one hand, chill out. Don’t be scared from another hand, not to get. Blown up by the by the technology. We gotta take it. We gotta make it human. We gotta pick a pick and choose what we want. Um, it really, really angers me when I go and watch some, um, you know, television. I’m going to go with streaming services.

I’m Amazon Prime, whatever. And instead of telling me what are these genres that I can choose from, you know, they show me all these movies that I may or may not like. Yes, of course, they, they, they help me with, uh, with my choices, but it’s also, it’s sort of a little bit of, you know, it’s, I’m put off by it, it’s like, you know, what are they saying?

Why is this so important? Why is why is this book on the top of everything else? Is that because Amazon is making more money? Is it because is it really good? Um, so we are losing, you know, this, this choices, uh, that are coming together. I’m an engineer, you always optimize based on something. And unfortunately, the, the, um, the most of our social media and most of our, um, you know, most of what we see is, is, is optimized.

On eyeballs and you know, commercial and things like that. So I don’t expect them. I don’t expect Amazon or Google or Microsoft to be ethical beings. Okay, so they’re corporations. They have to make money. But I think as humans, we have to. Um, start taking control of your own, of our own, um, destiny, so to speak.

Um, so it’s, that’s, that’s the philosophy behind looking always at the past because that teaches us a lot.

Naji Gehchan: I want to give you now a word and I would love your first reaction to it. Sure. So the first one is leadership.

Afarin Bellisario: Okay. Leadership is to, you know, to take, um, a team of people, um, to a certain place. And there are many, many different kinds of, um, uh, styles of leadership, if you will.

I mean, uh, a military leader might be, uh, also an operative and convince people and take them somewhere. At some point, you know, you have to say, I’m not gonna, in the middle of a war, everybody’s shooting at us. We are not, we don’t have time to, to, uh, to, you know, discuss everything. But, uh, you know, to, to, to the collaborative as much as possible.

So, a leader is the person who sees the, the, it has a vision, has a, sees the future. A leader, the good leader will share that vision, the places to go with others and take the whole team there. So it’s not that the leader is, you know, uh, across the river, whereas everybody else is still in the, uh, in, in the other side.

So, uh, so it’s a leadership is to me, that’s, that’s what it means.

Naji Gehchan: What about innovation? Well,

Afarin Bellisario: innovation is coming up with something new. But to me, it’s always something new that does something better. Better, faster, cheaper. It’s just that, you know, we learn, we teach that to our teams. Um, why is this thing better?

I mean, it’s fun. For better, you’ve been in MIT. So at MIT, we deal with a lot of technology, and a lot of times, you know, it’s the technology looking for solutions. I always tell people, Fall in love with the problem, not with your solution and because, okay, it’s always good to be to, uh, to be curious and to work on something that’s we don’t know what it’s good for yet.

That’s science. That’s wonderful. And but, but, Innovation has to do with usability. You gotta make something that’s useful to people, um, and they can make, make their lives better. I mean, it could be something to, um, I don’t know, cure a disease, maybe make food better, whatever. So, uh, to me, somebody who comes up with a new fancy dish and it’s a very tasty dish, that’s innovation.

Naji Gehchan: What about startups?

Afarin Bellisario: Startups. Oh, yeah. We are a nation of startups. Um, startups, you know, to me, are people who have a passion, um, and, uh, decide that, uh, um, the, the tried and true ways, the operations or whatever doesn’t work for them for one reason or the other, and they start up. Something new. Um, again, it has hand in hand, hopefully with innovation.

You open a, um, a new bakery in a, um, in the, I mean, flour bakery in, in Boston, you know, flour way close to Sloan, couple of them. So, uh, You know, it’s opening a bakery is not a big deal. It’s not innovation, except that she came up with with a new way of approaching the problems that was innovated. And she started a startup.

to make that innovation possible, commercialize, make it accessible to people. So that’s a, that’s to me, that’s a, that’s a definition of startup. And

Naji Gehchan: the last one is spread love and organizations.

Afarin Bellisario: Spread love, I don’t know, spread passion, spread, cause everything in the world, love, uh, moves the world. And it’s not only love, love between two, two entity, two person, one person and an animal.

You know, love is love. You know, when, when we are thinking about somebody else besides ourselves or some other entities besides ourselves, um, that’s love. You know, and that’s, uh. That’s, uh, and, and that is the, that is what makes the, uh, the, that’s, that’s a huge, uh, motivation. Um, and if we have a, um, organization where people feel empathy towards each other, it’s a good organization.

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom offering for leaders around the world?

Afarin Bellisario: What is it? Any advice for them?

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom for leaders around the world?

Afarin Bellisario: Stop thinking about, you know, making, you know, uh, I mean, if you look at people, all these leaders, they’re trying to create chasms between people so that they stay in power.

Um, people have more in common with each other. And then then differences. But if unfortunately, today’s leaders are, um, I mean, and they’re not leaders in my mind. They are. They are ours. The powers of being strong people. But, but those people and my, my advice to them is that, you know, wise up, you know, bring people together because otherwise we’re going to have.

You know, just going back to past and future. Technology is a tool and the more we make it may make it stronger. It also has the effect of potentially more danger. I mean, an atomic bomb is millions of times more, more dangerous than a knife. And, you know, now we have generative AI and all this other technologies.

We have tools of destruction and they got to be careful. They got to be very careful about, um, you know, uh, put you over the fire and, and making the differences worse.

Naji Gehchan: That’s a great way.

Afarin Bellisario: Differences. Yes.

Naji Gehchan: Yes, thank you so much for joining me today. Let’s bring people together. That’s a great way to finish our chat today.

Thanks again and congrats for your, for your book.

Afarin Bellisario: Thank you very much and thank you for having me. And yes, I love nothing better than trying to be a bridge between people. I think that’s, that’s what we need today.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji GEHCHAN
Naji, welcome to spread love and organizations. The healthcare leadership podcast, where we explore leadership with purpose.

I’m Naji, your host, joined today by Angela justice, an award winning Chief People Officer, executive coach and trusted advisor to top executives, a neuroscientist by training. Angela began her career as a management consultant at McKinsey, before holding senior leadership positions in medical affairs, patient advocacy and human resources. Most recently, she was the chief people officer and head of medical affairs at TCR therapeutics. Angela has diverse background and hands on experience in the C suites and boardrooms of healthcare, biotech and nonprofit sectors provide her with a unique and informed perspective. Her deep understanding of human and organizational behavior enabled her to drive sustainable change, helping leaders establish strategic alignment, address blind spots and leverage strength for exceptional results. As the founder and managing director of justice group advisors, Angela is dedicated to helping leaders earn and embrace their seat at the table. Angela, it’s

so good to see you again and have you with me today.

Angela Justice 1:13
Thank you so much, Naji. I really appreciate it. I’m so thrilled to join you here today.

Naji GEHCHAN 1:19
So I want to first hear more about your personal story and really what brought you to biotech, from neuroscience and now entrepreneurship, always, though, focused on healthcare leadership. So I’m really eager to learn more about you. Yeah,

Angela Justice 1:34
oh, thank you. You know, it’s, it’s really interesting. I think if I would have been asked, you know, when I was a kid. So I grew up in a small town in rural Minnesota, and if you would have asked me what I would be doing today, right? I don’t think one. I would never have even known the career of executive coach existed, that that would have never even entered my my consciousness. But knowing, you know that I’ve been able to weave together this career through, you know, academic research to management consulting, healthcare biotech, and now being able to advise and coach leaders and executives and teams in biotech and life sciences companies to help them achieve extraordinary results. And have, you know, a big impact in the world, it would just, I think, blow my young Minnesotan mind.

Naji GEHCHAN 2:31
So tell us a little bit more. How did that happen, like how, why neuroscience and how you ended up being so passionate about human behaviors, organizational behaviors, and you’ve touched through your career all those aspects, from actually building capabilities global leadership development to being Chief People Officer. I’m intrigued What drove you in that, and how do you see your current mission, being an exec coach, helping

leaders be better leaders in life. Science.

Angela Justice 2:59
Yeah, so, you know, I’ve always been just fascinated by human behavior. I’ve always been the person, you know, asking, Why did they do that? You know, how? How can we get them to do something different? What? What’s it going to take to make this change? All my life, right from the time I was very young, and in particular, one of the areas that always caught my curiosity was this concept of potential. You know, I was, I was a dancer when I was a kid, and throughout most of my young adult life, I was a dancer. And, you know, I even taught dance. So I was like an apprentice to my dance instructor for many years. And what I loved about that I love dancing, right? I love pushing myself to to be great. But what I loved even more was identifying those other dancers that had potential, and thinking about how you could help shape and nurture that, so that they could become the best they could become, so that the collective group of dancers, the company, the team, could really become great. And so this, this concept of potential, has always been something that’s been really like dear to my heart, and I’ve always thought a great deal about what it takes to both identify potential, but then also to shape and nurture and grow it. And that, I think, is really what led me to pursuing my my degree in psychology, and really understanding, or trying to understand the underpinnings of human behavior, and then ultimately taking that a step further and really trying to explore the neurobiological underpinnings, or neuro chemical underpinnings of behavior. Really wanted to understand this very deeply, but all throughout it’s been really driven by just this innate, intense curiosity for what makes people do, what they do, and how we can bring out the very best in people and help them achieve their very biggest goals.

Naji GEHCHAN 4:59
I love. So my first follow up question, and I’ll get back to potential, because I love how you framed it. But how do they do what they do? How do we as humans do what we do? And how can you as a leader

get the best of each one’s potential?

Angela Justice 5:13
Yeah, you know, I think I’m still trying to figure that out. To be frank, I think when you it’s one of those things, the more you know, the less you know right, or the more that you learn that you need to learn. But I think inherently, just having that curiosity about behavior really is seeking to understand why people do and continuously asking and exploring and kind of probing. You may not ever fully understand it, but at least it brings out, I think, a sort of empathy which also creates the platform where you can start making inroads, start having impacts, start understanding and then ultimately asking different and even better questions to move forward. So I don’t know that. I know why people do what they do. I do know that there are certain things that you can do consistently, or think about or ask consistently, that help shape behavior. And those are just some real basic behavioral science principles and techniques that I think are fairly universal, aligning incentives and thinking about reinforcing certain behaviors, both positively and negatively, and negatively meaning taking the bad stuff away, not not punishing. But I think there are certain concepts that that help us understand and help us influence. But boy, humans are still a mystery,

Naji GEHCHAN 6:34
and that’s what’s beautiful in being a humans and leading humans. And as you’ve been Chief People Officer, you’ve also led organization as an operational leader. Have you found the magic recipe to be able to foster this potential and make sure that you have a high winning team? And how have you, how do you think about this as an operational leader, but also when you were a chief people officer, how would you bring what are the key major aspects that you would look in within a leader, where you would know they would succeed with the team you have?

Angela Justice 7:10
You know, I think oftentimes what it comes down to is having a goal that’s bigger than oneself, and I think that happens both at the individual level, but also at the collective and team level or company level, right? If you’re focusing on something that is greater than you, something that really matters to you, right? And this is one of the reasons I love healthcare and life sciences so much, because we’re all in it, because deep down, we want to make the world a better place. We want to make things better and easier and safer and happier for humankind, and when you can really focus in on what it is that you’re doing and why, it propels action in different ways. Right? It motivates people to take the steps they need to take to get it done, because they’re not doing it just for themselves. They’re doing it for a bigger purpose, and that bigger purpose can be incredibly motivating, because it takes people away from, you know, themselves in this kind of egocentric perspective or perspective that they may have. So I think first off, as a leader, aligning understanding right the motivation, but then aligning to a higher purpose is something bigger than than just oneself. It sounds perhaps a little trite or cliche or obvious, but it’s critical, and it really works. So I think that’s really the first step.

Naji GEHCHAN 8:37
It is.

It is certainly critical, and certainly, as you said, in life science and healthcare, it might feel obvious, we certainly wake up every morning to bring innovation to patients and help help people, help us at some point live better. But as you said, it’s not that simple to wake up and remember that every day. So making sure that as a leader and as a team, we always bring this purpose beyond

any anything else, right,

like dynamics,

egos, what I think, what you think, I’m sure you’ve seen those throughout different experiences and big organizations, smaller biotechs, it always exists, but it’s really going back to, why are we doing what we’re doing? And at the end of the day, this is the main, big purpose that we’re here for. Yeah, exactly.

Angela Justice 9:30
And you know, so often you do, you know that, you know that’s your goal, you understand that that’s the company’s bigger purpose. And yet, to your point, you get stuck in these kind of squabbles, or, you know, turf wars happen, or conflict happens between teams, and to be able to take a step back, and I think it’s an active practice of taking a step back, but to do that and say, look, here’s the problem, right? Here’s the challenges that we’re facing. We’re trying to solve them because together. We actually want the same thing, and then looking at it as we’re in this together, right? We’re going to solve this challenge as collaborators, as, like, you know, allies, not as as people who are trying to compete or at different sides of the problem. We’re actually on the same side of

Naji GEHCHAN 10:16
the problem. Yeah, yeah, looking at competition outside, actually, versus inside and really in healthcare competition is just the diseases right that you’re trying to cure and fight for the patients. You said, you know, as you were saying, like daily practice, stepping back. Where do you place humility? Because I’m feeling the more you grow, the more you learn, the more you have to be humble and accepting that you don’t have the best ideas, and it’s actually the team who will bring the best solutions towards your purpose, have you? Is this something you consider, you think of as a leader, or as you coach leaders?

Angela Justice 10:54
Yeah, absolutely. I think that humility is is is critical, and it isn’t always a quality that is honored, right? I think, especially in in healthcare and in highly technical fields. Let’s say, when you’re building this tremendous expertise, you know, you think of the the surgeon or the physician who’s building this tremendous expertise, and literally have lives in their hands, right? Humility is is not necessarily the first thing that comes to mind is the competency that’s going to help them excel. And yet, when you’re leading in organizations, humility is absolutely critical, because to get the best solutions, to get the best answers, to move the organization closer to its bigger goals and bigger purpose. It requires the collective effort of everyone, and that means people need to be able to take a bit of a step back and be open to hearing and learning and collaborating with others. So inherently, that requires a bit of humility. It requires confidence too. But I think those two things can actually go hand in hand.

Naji GEHCHAN 12:04
So when you think about all the experience you had in the different roles and now being an entrepreneur and executive coach, have you set intentionally the direction of your career and where you are today? And I love that it started with the love of dancing and finding potential. So what were you intentional on all those steps?

Angela Justice 12:25
Well, given that when I was a kid, I thought I was going to be a trapeze artist, right? That was like my career goal, no, I can say with confidence, set the direction. It’s definitely taken some pivots and some turns, but I think that kind of guiding principle throughout has always been, you know, this, this desire to really learn more about people and have an impact on the world in a way that was somewhat meaningful, and healthcare, life sciences, that’s always been a guiding Passion. You know, I always approach to those, okay, directionally, where do I want to go? And kind of thinking, you know, if I can think, like, three moves ahead, then the next move doesn’t have to be the defining move. It just has to get me closer to the ultimate kind of goal. And so I’ve always tried to take that approach right. I want to be directionally correct. I want to have an idea of where things are heading. But I also want to have a little bit of optionality built in, so that I can take advantage of things as they come along, and be very open minded, really, in opportunities as they present.

Naji GEHCHAN 13:38
So I want to double click on this, as you’re obviously an exec coach with leaders, you’ve been a Chief People Officer also, and I mentor a lot of early career professionals too, and who are at different stages, but even advanced leaders, sometimes They’re more into focusing on today and the immediate job or the next promotion, versus taking direction exactly what you said, like directionally in the right way, and what I want to really kind of achieve in my life, versus, you know, my next career promotion, or the next 10% which I’m not saying is not important, but I’d love your thoughts about, how do you navigate this? And I’ve seen it in different countries, being very different. I can tell you, in France and some countries in Europe, it’s different than what I’ve seen also in the US of this, you know, like high stake of a title and, you know, a promotion, versus, like you know your purpose of the job and the impact you have. So I’d love to get your thoughts off. You obviously been a people leader for several years. Yeah,

Angela Justice 14:52
I think, I think you’re right. It, it is. It’s a tough it’s a tough topic in some ways, right? Because. There’s a lot of personal identity wrapped up in one’s career. And I think in the US, we see that in particular, like a lot of one’s sense of self worth comes from their title, their job, their role and and I think you know, what I like to encourage people to do again is to take a little bit of a step back and think about what it is that they really care about, what they really want to accomplish, what they want their legacy to be for their lives, and that isn’t just the next job. That isn’t the next type, right, that’s going to be taking a much broader, more expansive view. And when people understand or have a bit of clarity on what it is that really matters to them and where they want to head again, directionally, it liberates them a little bit to think more expansively about their careers. And look, I’m all for advancement. I think, you know, it’s, it’s wonderful to be ambitious and want to move up in organizations, but I think the concept of moving up in organizations is a bit missing the mark. I think what really people need to focus on is moving up in their lives and really moving closer to their ultimate goals. And when you think, you know, a little bit further down the line than just the next job, it also it opens again, it opens that aperture so you can be a lot more opportunistic about things that you take advantage of, right? So if you’re thinking, I want this next promotion, you might be laser focused on getting that and that job, and then if you don’t get it, you’re going to feel kind of bad. But if you’re more thinking about I want this ultimately, and these are the skills, experiences and connections, I need to get there. Then all of a sudden you see lots of different opportunities open up, and lots of different steps Open up. They might be in terms of advancement. They might be a job that moves you, you know, quote, unquote, up the ladder. But it might be about broadening your skill set. It might be broadening your experiences. And again, those just open you up for newer and different experiences. It kind of takes the pressure off, but it also just really makes you a much more rounded, valuable professional.

Naji GEHCHAN 17:14
I love what you said. Move up in your life. I will. I wrote it down. I’ll always remember this as a great advice for all our listeners, and one of the powerful questions you asked I always used that is, what do you want your legacy to be in life? Think, when you start thinking through this lens, you open up, as you said, to different different types of perspective and really the impact that you want to have on others and on the word as you live it. When we also discussed, you talked about potential today, we also discussed about amplifying your edge. So I think it’s related to potential. Can you share a little bit more your philosophy about this? Yeah, yeah.

Angela Justice 17:59
So you know, this is a concept that I I really honed, I guess, or really explored, when I was at McKinsey. So I was a management consultant at McKinsey and Company, and I was what they called a non traditional hire. So that meant I had a PhD, not an MBA. And, you know, look, I knew very little about business. I had run a dance studio. I had done a few little entrepreneurial things, so I had a business inclination, but I didn’t have traditional business skills or knowledge. And I remember, you know, the first month year, even at McKinsey, working so hard just to fit in, just to become more like my MBA colleagues, and it was exhausting, but it also wasn’t working. I mean, I wasn’t like, being revered as, like, this amazing hire, like, Thank goodness they brought me in. I knew that there was a gap that I had to bridge, and I wasn’t going to bridge it by trying to be like everyone else. So what I did instead was I thought a lot about what I brought uniquely to the table that gave me an edge, and what I came up with was, look, you know, they didn’t hire me to be an MBA. They have those that hired me because I was a scientist. They hired me because I was a behavioral scientist, and I could come up with different ideas and hypotheses and ways of helping our clients, helping the companies that we were supporting achieve their goals, by applying my knowledge of behavioral science. So rather than, you know, trying to fit in, I started to hone my edge, which was I was a behavioral science that approached questions differently. I took a very experimental approach to the work we are doing. And when I started approaching the work that way and really talking about it like, I started talking about myself that way and really showing up by bringing those behavioral concepts to the table, everything changed. Now, all of a sudden, I wasn’t, you know. The PhD who didn’t have an MBA, I was the behavioral scientist who was bringing you know, novel insights and approaches to our clients that would really help them make the strategies that we were developing stick. So I always think about coming up with what is your edge? What is it that makes you unique, different, valuable, gives you that competitive advantage that will help you, help your clients, your company, your team, whomever it is, achieve again, those bigger goals.

Naji GEHCHAN 20:31
Well, this is a great advice. As we think about diversity, I imagine also within our teams, diversity of thoughts, of capabilities, so as an organization and as leader, embracing that and being open for those who we brought for their difference and not trying to make them fit the mold, right? Is a great learning

Angela Justice 20:52
Absolutely. I mean, it really at the heart of it that really is a lot of what diversity and inclusion is about. It’s recognizing those unique perspectives, experiences, talents, skills, ideas that people bring to the table that are different. But so often, I see this with leaders all of the time, and I made the mistake myself, right? You want to fit in, and that was not what McKinsey wanted from me. They wanted me to stand out. They wanted me to bring those different experiences, and that’s so true in organizations as well. It’s really easy to want to fit in, but you’re there because you have something to offer. You need to learn how to articulate it, how to tell that story, and how to make it apply. But bringing those unique gifts to the table is exactly what makes organizations.

Naji GEHCHAN 21:44
So I will pivot now to a section where I’ll give you a word, and I’d love your reaction to it. The first one is leadership. Well,

Angela Justice 21:53
the first thing that comes two things come to mind, actually, one is legacy. And partly because we were just talking about the importance of leaving a legacy and envisioning your legacy, I think using that to shape your leadership journey. The other thing that comes to mind is followership, because I think it’s really two sides of the coin, but I personally like to focus a lot more on the notion of followership than just leadership, because I think when you think about others, when you think about the people that you are leading, you need to think about why they should be following you, what it is that you’re doing to help them, support them, elevate them, pull them together, and again, back to potential, how you can recognize the potential of your team to really maximize that for themselves, but for each other and collectively as well. So legacy and followership.

Naji GEHCHAN 22:48
So the second one you just mentioned is potential.

Angela Justice 22:52
Yeah, well, so what do I think of when I think of potential? You know, I just think of maximizing all ways, shape and form, and really try to understand potential, you know, it’s interesting, right? Because you’ll have people who have, maybe similar backgrounds, experiences opportunity, and yet some people just seem to have limitless success, and others seem to hit a ceiling. And, you know. So I think if we think about what it is that’s necessary to unlock that potential, for people, you know, again, to me, it comes back to having a bigger goal, something that’s bigger than oneself. I think especially for a leader trying to understand and unlock that potential is is really important. What about coaching, coaching, you know coaching. When I hear coaching or think of coaching, I think of it as just an incredibly valuable tool, a gift in some ways. I’ve, you know, had the great pleasure honor of both being coached and coaching. I will tell you earlier in my career, I wasn’t as convinced about the value of coaching, and then I got a great coach, and I saw Wow. What you know? What can really happen when you have somebody who is asking thought provoking questions, who is challenging you, pushing you, supporting you, guiding you again, the unlock for potential there can be can be absolutely phenomenal. I’ve experienced it myself by having a great coach, and I continue to get coached. It’s an investment that I make in myself. I think it’s absolutely worth it, and I have the great honor and privilege of coaching some really exceptional leaders and seeing the value it creates.

Naji GEHCHAN 24:41
The last one is spread love and organizations.

Angela Justice 24:44
I love this. You know, when I think of that, what immediately comes to mind is that quote. I believe it’s Maya Angelou who says, you know, and I’ll butcher the actual quote probably, but it’s something to the effect of people will forget what you said. They’ll forget what you. Did, but they won’t forget how you made them feel. And I think if leader, if as leaders, we can bear that in mind, and we can think about how we want to show up with empathy, with compassion, with love, right for the teams, the companies, the people that we’re working with, that creates a legacy. I mean that really, that changes everything. It creates a movement. It creates a legacy, and it unlocks the potential of individuals, teams and organizations,

Naji GEHCHAN 25:34
any final word of wisdom for leaders around the world.

Angela Justice 25:40
Mm, well, you know, I’m not sure if I have any particular words of wisdom, I will make an offer. Because I think a lot of you know, a lot of this really requires a lot of deep thinking and introspection, like, really, to maximize one’s own potential and that of your teams, you gotta really think about it. You gotta reflect and and really, you know, try to figure out what it is that you bring that is your unique edge, and how you can help others find theirs. And so I actually created for your listeners a worksheet that will help them identify their edge. So it’s a it’s just a simple worksheet with a number of prompts. They can just spend some time thinking about what it is that makes them uniquely gifted, qualified, differentiated, and how they can start communicating that edge and bringing it to their companies, their teams, their workplaces, and then they can use it to also help others do the Same. So hopefully the unlock right of potential here can can be, can be pretty magnified.

Oh, that is awesome. Naji, thank you so much for doing for doing it. I will certainly have it on the episode page with also, if you allow your contact so people can use it and ask the questions if they have, it’s really awesome that they will be able to practice what we talked about and discovering and unlocking our edge. I’ll certainly do it, and I’ll loop back with you on it.

Yeah, I’ll love to hear what you come up with. It’s a really fun exercise. It’s one that, you know, I think it’s worth revisiting from time to time, because obviously things evolve, but my clients that have done it have really found that it can have some pretty tremendous impact.

Naji GEHCHAN 27:29
Awesome. Well, great. Thanks

so much again for joining me and being with me today on this chat. And I look forward to doing the exercise and continuing our discussions offline, too. Thanks again for being with me.

Angela Justice 27:41
Thank you, Naji. Thank you so much, and thank you to all of your listeners.

Naji GEHCHAN 27:47
Thanks for listening to the show. For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to spreadlavio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts, lest inspires change together and make a positive impact in healthcare one story at a time you.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I’m Naji, your host, joined today by Rebecca Young, Corporate Vice President at FedEx Corporation and leads Operations Science and Advanced Technology.

In her role, Rebecca is responsible for driving critical aspects of FedEx innovation and transformation strategy, including scaling up robotics and automation, uh, technology, autonomous vehicles, decision science, and electromobility. She sits on the FedEx Strategic Management Committee, a C suite leadership group that sets the strategic direction for the enterprise.

As an expert in both advanced technology and logistics operations, she frequently speaks at high profile industry forums including Fortune, Word50, Reuters Momentum, CES, the AI Summit Silicon Valley, uh, and several more. In March 2024, Rebecca was recognized by Reuters event as one of the top 20 trade blazing women in enterprise AI.

who are demonstrating real influence, impact, and leadership in large scale enterprise AI deployment. Rebecca joined two public boards in 2023, Royal Caribbean Group and Columbus McKinnon, bringing to both her technology and innovation expertise and strategic perspective. She has also previously served as Board of Director for the Mid South 2022, and most recently, she is the author of What’s Rule?

Think differently about success and cultivate a happy life. A book that inspires readers to challenge the status quo, dive deep, think differently, and charter their unique path to success. Rebecca, it’s great to see you again and have you with me today.

Yeah, good morning, Yunaochi. So good to be on your podcast.

Naji Gehchan: I’m eager first, before going to your book that I really enjoyed, I want to first hear your personal story from childhood in rural China to corporate boardrooms. What’s in between the lines of your inspiring journey?

Oh, I, I would just say it’s a very long arc. And, um, I grew up, like, if I rewind five decades ago, and I grew up in rural China without running water or electricity.

And, uh, really to see right now, um, I am sitting as a, uh, Fortune 50 senior executive and a board director. Um, my life journey begins with, uh, a lot of difficulties in early life that, um, no money and not even, and not even enough food to go around in the village, but plenty of that. And then I went to Shanghai, uh, reunited with my parents at the age of seven, but that’s the difficult journey start with me having, um, just diagnosed dyslexia.

And, uh, had a huge challenges in school, even being viewed as the most stupid kid, um, like by the principal, which was like a really harsh for a child to actually experience. And so I had a tremendous struggle trying to fit in and, uh, um, and that lasted for many years until my mother, probably at the age of 12 me.

Told me the biggest life lesson. Um, she basically just said, I know you’re miserable, but you’re actually really smart and if you didn’t like what you experienced, you should have fight with all your mind. And, um, if not, your choice is accept the reality and be miserable. Which choice do you really choose?

That was a reckoning moment. Just made me realize my young self realized. But in life, you always have to fight and for a different outcome. So that ignited me. I eventually went to an elite Chinese university, which is Fudan University. And then that actually in a very different period, I was an accidental English major.

Um, but that was the early 90s when China was under through a tremendous amount of pressure. Opening up to the Western world. So guess what? English is the best golden key to, um, career opportunities than to exposure. So, um, I, I did many interesting engagement did management consulting for British companies to.

Enter into the Chinese market, and that somehow also and as well as an American delegation as their English interpreter, um, and that really ignited of my American dream. So, 96, I pack up my two suitcase had a hundred dollars in my pocket and a scholarship. To an MBA program, and so that’s how I actually just had the courage at that time to had a one way ticket, which took all my family’s kind of savings and my dad literally back me at the airport.

Please don’t go because we did not know anybody there. And by the way, that’s a one way ticket. You do understand if you fail. I know we wouldn’t have money or means to get you back, but I was young in my mid 20s. I was like, I wanted to pursue the American dream. I finished two years. I had my MBA, um, had a lot of, um, landing a summer internship with, uh, FedEx for as a marketing intern and did not know that it turned into a 25 year amazing career journey.

And pretty much, um, took me from marketing to operations to customer experience to advanced technology and eventually lead it to the scene. 1 of the senior most position at FedEx. And so that’s a little bit. Um, I’ll call my journey and, uh, um, it’s it’s just incredible.

Naji Gehchan: Wow. It certainly is. And, uh, you’re, it’s, it’s really an amazing journey of resilience, grit.

As you said, uh, you, you said really strong words, uh, in your, you know, beginning struggle to fit in and how, I love it. I remember we had a conversation with, uh, our friend Gail also, and I, I wrote down actually what you said that you said again today, like at your lowest point of your life, you have a choice.

Accept it and stay miserable or fight and change it. And I think this is part of the thread you keep in the book. So if we go, uh, to, uh, to, to your book, What Rules, uh, tell us more about it. Tell us an overview and why you wrote it, uh, to, to start with. And then we can go and dig into the rules themselves.

What

motivates you to write books? Yeah, that’s a really a great question. First of all, I mean, I never really imagined I would write a book and what motivates me was one of a conversation I had with another executive in when he told me he wrote a book to multiply the kind of reach and effect. And that inspired me to say, there are many people I feel fortunate in my life and my way of paying it forward.

Is to share wisdom, share lessons, learn to inspire others to be their best, and so that was the motivation to write a book, and you may ask why the name what rules Gail actually had a huge part of it. She has been my amazing executive coach. So one day we were just having dinner and she asked a genuine question to me, which is Rebecca, you know, everybody.

I mean. How what you accomplish is very huge. And even for some Native Americans, that’s harder to achieve to your level. And especially as women in the U. S., we always needed to follow specific rules and specific ways of working in corporate. So how did you, as a person coming from China, figure out the rules and just advance?

And I was very stunned by her question. So I, the next two words came out of my mouth was, what rules am I supposed to follow any rules? And, uh, it took a gal by surprise. And I think she couldn’t, she burst into a laughter and couldn’t stop for a few minutes. And then she recognized, she said, Oh, my God, you break the glass ceiling because.

You didn’t not really like like view the those rules as constraint. You don’t even understand it. So by not understanding you, you played your own game. And that’s how you break through. And that really inspired me to use what rules as a book, book name, because I think in life, a lot of times there are tons of unseen, um, Like, um, good meaning rules that, uh, guide how we do and, and what, who we should become.

But in the end, we kind of live our life by someone else rules by the conventional rules. And, uh, I always believe like life is too short to live based on other people’s expectations and. Um, it should always, like, be much more fun and fulfilling to embrace yourself, live a genuine, authentic life, and, uh, and not following any of those rules.

I mean, for example, I just thought to give you one example, I would say if you ask most people, what is your goal? Like what? What is your goal in corporate? And most people say make lots of money from the corporate letters, right? Our success tends to be defined by conventional rules as, uh, the wells and this social standards, but very seldom did people ask.

Is that your real goal? I mean, what is your real goal in in life? And, um, even for the industries you pursue, right? Or the business you do. Are you really genuinely happy? So those are the kind of more profound, the common questions I explore in the book and not to preach any ideas, but as a genuine kind of sharing and exploration to say, let’s dig deeper.

Let’s dive in. Let’s figure out like our passion and what we want to do in life.

Naji Gehchan: So let’s, let’s dive deeper and talk about what rules I love the title and and the story and I remember you said break the breaking the glass ceiling. I remember you used the term also in the book and in our discussion track the bamboo ceiling.

As it relates, I think, to what you left. But let’s go there. Let’s talk about The six rules you have in the book, can you share them first with us, and then we can probably dig in one in particular that you think we should prioritize above any other.

Yeah, so I identified the six rules we commonly follow.

And there are the goals rule, the strengths rule, the opportunity rule, the limit rule, the either or rule, and the happiness rule. So starting with the goals, typically, in, by any normal convention, especially Asian culture, the success of a life goal is to make lots of money and achieve high social status.

And what. We if we dig deeper, sometimes we could achieve those goals, but miss the mark. Does that really make us happy? What is our passion? So the ghost rule is really trying to dig deeper into our inner self, our passion, because when we start our passion, our life naturally project to a more happy and fulfilling path.

And the second part rule is the stress rule. And, uh, particularly as a female, and we tend to have a tendency of the negative buyers. Like, every time we have a survey about ourselves, like, my, my mind will immediately go into, like, ignore all the, all the good things said about me, what are the, the kind of weaknesses, and immediately dive in.

And that’s pretty good. That helps me address some of the weaknesses. Gradually in life. I realized that if I spend all my time addressing only the weaknesses, I missed the opportunity of like exemplify my like amplify my students so I can break through and for example, my current role is very unique role at the intersection of technology and application.

That is where I find. Um, the students actually project me to a totally different space. You have a ton of technology like executives. You have a ton of operations executives, but the combination of the two brings more power because. The intersection of technology and business application is where the value is generated.

So, that teaches me the lesson about don’t spend all the time trying to address your weaknesses. You want to making sure weakness doesn’t become an object of your success, but you needed to actually spend more energy to amplify the strength. So to break out and to get unstuck. Um, the third rule, which is opportunity rules, and in a nutshell, we always say opportunity is luck, but is it really?

So I would say two things. Um, one is, do you recognize when the opportunity actually show up? Second is, do you have the courage to take the opportunity? Because that comes with risk, right? So dig deeper. And oftentimes that builds, if you’re clear about your passion and your strengths, then you are more likely to recognize the right opportunity and be willing to take them.

And the fourth rule, interestingly, is limits rule or the failure rule. By taking the opportunity, you may fail at some point. And then doubt the decisions we make and we, I, what I, I want to share from my experience is limit or failure is temporary. If you don’t try hard enough and fail at something and always in the zone, then that’s very hard to break through.

That’s more like a comfort zone. Right? So we needed to actually be more intentional about pushing the boundaries, pushing the limit. And not to be governed by. Okay. That’s a safe zone. So that’s a force on high level is a force or the last. Then the 5th 1 is either oral, which is something we always struggle is, um, do we will have a work life balance and as a mother as a woman, and I struggled with that at the beginning.

I had a very unique past that. I literally at FedEx, I will say it’s two, um, I would divide it in half. So the first 10 years I spent as a mother raising two young children, and I did not intentionally go for a promotion because I was trying to really weigh what my priority in life, which is Um, being the best mother I can to my kids and spend time with them and that, that is because I couldn’t reverse my kids age.

I can always pick up my career, but I couldn’t at the same time. It doesn’t mean that I just like bamboo growing shoots. It doesn’t mean that I’m just like stand still. I, I spend the 10 years trying to study. Every aspect about FedEx business from marketing to product development to technology to back end infrastructure operations, customer experience, et cetera.

So, I was using the time to build my strengths while spending a lot of time with my boss. So, the next 10 years, it just, it jump started my career. I had a very fast trajectory all the way to the senior leadership. So, that taught me that in life, everyone makes different decisions. But it’s about integration, integrating what’s important to you along with career.

So that is a, it’s not an easy or it’s more like, can we find a path that reflect your different stages of your life, different reflecting your priority. And the last rule is happiness rule, which is my favorite. And so I grew up poor and my, my parents, the only criteria for me is, am I happy in that? That has such a profound, like, impact on how I view life is not being viewed as the status or the money.

It’s more genuinely, did I live a happy life? And, uh, that also challenge our goal. Sometimes, oftentimes, The conventional wisdom is you right now you celebrate later, but do we miss the opportunity to view life as a journey celebrating everything along the journey so you don’t like to delay your happiness until you reach that elusive everlasting goal.

Like, because if we, we kind of have the mindset about delay now, but like the growing out in the celebratory later, it feels like you always will chase the next goal because there’s always someone more successful, more powerful, have more money. Right? So I want to challenge that to say, if we’re authentic to ourselves.

Can we really smell all the roses along the way and be happy while growing, while challenging the new norm? So that’s in a nutshell about the six rules I wrote in my book.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much, Rebecca, for sharing them. It’s a lot of wisdom and powerful, um, Uh, powerful, uh, pieces you gave us, uh, I really want to dig into all of them, but I’m gonna do the hard exercise.

You said happiness is your favorite, and that was my next question. Maybe not saying the favorite, but the one that you would prioritize above most. Is there one of them that you would prioritize above most as you think about your life?

Um, I definitely thought like I will prioritize the happiness like the in terms of the most it’s it’s more profound than just say the meaning of being just talk about daily happiness, et cetera.

It’s more reflection about what brings joy in life, because when we are joyful, we are more productive. They always say fund the job. Like, which align with your passion, then the job doesn’t become a job. If you’re so happy, you’re so involved into it. So happiness to me is the summary about all the rules.

It centers around that you live a purpose driven life, that you find the right integration for you regarding what you are doing to your passion, to the family life. It centers around you have enough confidence. And in the clarity that you are not swinged by a lot of other factors, like, for example, even I take teenager for these days, a lot of social media impact.

A lot of times you look at all these fabulous digital life of people, they have the perfect life, perfect body, perfect everything, perfect vacation, right? And that that amount of pressure is real. And so in order to be happy, you have to really have a solid foundation about the self to say, this is the life that’s an authentic real life for me that I, I am happy about it.

And as we grow older in professionals, there’s also a level of define enough. So I love the book psychology of money. And I remember there was one. Um, kind of chapter talk about a big yard party and with all the hugely successful rich people in this, but there’s a writer there and people ask, how do you feel he’s that I’m I’m perfectly content here because I have something they don’t have.

And people are like, oh, he’s sending enough. I can define my enough in life from a material perspective. So, so that’s why, like, I put everything together in order to be happy. It takes a lot to recognize yourself, your passion, recognize that the things you are doing aligns with your goals, recognizing you have the confidence to embrace life as it is, that you have the resilience, you have the grit, you You actually also happening by walking towards your goals and celebrating everything along the way.

So that to me is a very profound kind of way of summarizing a happy, fulfilling life to say, do you feel like you’re joyful? Do you feel you’re happy? That’s a hard question. So, Najee, if I ask you, how do Are you happy?

Naji Gehchan: I was going to ask you this question, but you’re bringing really an amazing point. And I, um, you know, and that was my question too.

And I can answer also your question. I’m not going to avoid it. Uh, but, but what, is there any tips or what did you do or recommend for leaders as a work to detach ourselves From what, like the, really the title of your book, like what truths, as you said, because I feel like several times. You know, we are in this craziness of doing good, doing fast, being ambitious, uh, trying to get to the next thing, making it good and even better.

And when you get, you want to do more, you know? And I think for some of us, it’s really built into how we function and within a purpose. So, for example, I, I can share with you, we know one another, like my, my purpose is to make, uh, life better for patients who needs it, developing drug, bring it to market.

It’s really my purpose, but you mix it to ambition and then it becomes, as you said, sometimes, uh, you, I talk a lot with, uh, with leaders where exactly, as you said, you are in this constant pursuit of something that might be better at some point and not taking the step back and say, well, Let’s enjoy each step of the journey.

And in the several interviews that I’ve had with, uh, uh, with leaders who have got to this place with really amazing careers, every single person told me the same thing we did not enjoy as much as we should. the journey and celebrating the small steps that we’ve done that actually are way more enjoyable than whatever job we achieved at the end.

So any tips or how do you do it to force yourself to change those rules, as you said, and find your happy place and your personal garden, as you call it in the, in your book?

Yeah, that’s a great question. So I heard that a lot. Also when people hugely successful people looking back, Would it be? I wish I actually spend more time enjoying the journey versus the never ending to go chasing.

So I think the kind of mental model we can think about it is a hamster on the wheel so you can always like a move, right? And but if it’s continuous, you never really, that’s a never ending goal. And we don’t want to be that. And first of all, I will say ambition is actually great. If we’re not ambitious people, we will not be aware.

We are right now. So having a goal in life have an inspiration. Ambition is, is amazing. But don’t feel that as the end goal is the only place you can celebrate. You want to break it down to say, okay, if I am, I view as my life as as a journey towards the destination. And can I just. Be more intentional about small wings along the way that gets me there.

So for each step, when you’re intentional. You want to be, um, and then you’re happy. So I’ll give you 1 example. Um, there was, uh, 1 summer, I attended a famous consulting companies, some, like, 1 of the summit. And it was hugely successful people. So the 1st exercise is pick 2 cards. And they have poster cards.

One depict what you feel right now. One depict what you feel hopefully in 18 months and never like almost universally. Most people pick now is like a lot of struggle. You can see the images. Lots of mad messy doing and so it was almost universal and interesting. I was at the stage. I was pretty content.

That moment, so I picked in my first picture. As a beach with hammock next to the palm tree. And then my next one is hot air balloon. They were stunned. They were like, that’s your first image. I said, yeah, I work so hard. I recently got a promotion the last 18 months. I got a promotion. I joined the two public boards.

So I feel like I should have a moment of celebration before I chase my next goal. It doesn’t mean I was standing still. But it doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t immediately discard that was like, Oh, what’s my next goal? So it boils down to be in being intentional about celebrating those moments that are being team with people you care.

Also, you love because I the joy of my life aside from a successful career is my beautiful family. I have a loving husband, two wonderful children. Cool when is a senior in college when it’s going to college? I’m so proud of them. We celebrate all the moment. They are proud of me. So, those brings additional joy to that journey.

I,

Naji Gehchan: I love it. Uh, and you’re, you know, as you’re sharing this great example about, uh, the picture, I, I feel like you, you were the only one actually who said this. And sometimes you have this pressure about, well, no, I, I have to be. like, you know, this other image of, you know, struggle to end up at a certain time in a happy place where actually you’re, it’s a great reflection on saying, well, let’s celebrate the small milestones instead of only, uh, the, the end point, which for many people like us, I think, It never like the end point keeps on evolving to be more and more.

So sometimes you end up like, I

mean, that’s why I said what the rules, the rules is you always like the bigger, the job title, the bigger, the paycheck, the more wealth anybody gets, it’s the happiest place, but the reality, if you challenge that, it was like. Is that a really?

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. Yeah. So can I ask you, how do you, what’s your definition of success that you as a leader and a person today, how do you define it?

I, I view the success is I’m a better today than yesterday. So it’s the continuous improvement is the ultimate definition of success. Is life is a journey. It’s about continuously learning, continuously experimenting, continuously be better. So, if I look back today versus last year, I can see I, I have new skills.

I, I actually mentored more people help other people. I touch more people to be more successful. I advanced a technology for that that actually will be hugely important for the business. I view that as success. So for me, the success, interestingly, is not a job title or the social status. It’s meaningful progress along the way, as well as continuously improvement of myself.

I guess that’s a non conventional. Definition of success. It’s a great one. Meaningful

Naji Gehchan: progress. It’s a great one. Rebecca, another question that I, you know, I was thinking as I read this and as you were talking today, as a leader within your organization, how do you apply those rules for your teams? So how are you translating all this wisdom and developing your people, hiring them, managing them, growing them, managing their performance?

I’d love to hear your translation of this.

So that is very important question is what the rules translate is create the most positive, nurturing environment. For team team members to achieve their best, which means encourage them to identify their strength. I mean, in my group, we do strength finders. So once you actually go through the exercise, you recognize everybody’s strengths is different.

So finding their strengths, um, elevate them in terms of giving them the right assignment. And, uh, and give them, like, um, I think really stretching assignment that were take them outside of their failure, like, outside of their limits and, uh, experiencing new potential, give them a joy and encourage them to embrace failures as opportunities.

So one of the whole cornerstone of culture, I help instigate academics is. Quality driven management whenever the key principle is view failures as opportunities. So, um, if you view that as a kind of guiding principle, then you give people the ability to fail small, fail fast in order to succeed and pushing their boundaries and limits.

And so I, so all of these roles actually play very well at work. Is help team members identify their strengths, give them aspirational goals and also as leaders be okay with sometimes the failures, not a huge failures, but have the ability to tolerate the necessary failures in order to have a breakthrough is a huge like foundation for a successful team, reaching their full potential.

Naji Gehchan: I would love now, uh, give you a word and getting a first reaction to it.

That’s fine.

Naji Gehchan: The first one is leadership.

Leadership is, uh, not, uh, it’s about bringing the best from, um, everybody.

Naji Gehchan: What about work life balance?

I wouldn’t use the word of balance. I think, like I said, the rule is the integration. When you look at the balance, it means almost like zero sum game. When you integrate work life, you have a much more positive kind of attitude towards challenges and, uh, just tackling the challenges and it makes the best out of the situation.

Naji Gehchan: The third one is touchstone.

So the touchstone gives like a me and I hope the readers orientation around the most important things in life and in my book there’s a whole section kind of dedicated to that is exploring deeply, dive deeper, exploring yourself, exploring your passions, strengths, and the core.

kind of opportunities that excites you and that leads to better orientation about what we want to accomplish in life and also do the trade off of what you can afford to lose and what you cannot. So making the decision that most relevant to each individual.

Naji Gehchan: The last one is spread love and organizations.

I think that’s all about creating the most positive, nurturing environment as I said. that helps people achieving their full potential.

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom, Rebecca, for leaders around the world?

Um, I would just encourage, um, like listeners, if, indulge me to read the book and identify, um, to, to actually break free from some of the conventional constraints and build a clarity about the passion, about the strength.

And also, uh, have, like, charter your unique path to success. That’s my final word.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, Rebecca. I certainly recommend it too. And I love how you’re framing it, breaking from the conventional rules that we’ve set in our minds and really in this pursuit of, uh, of the breed rules we should set for ourselves.

Thank you so much again. It’s been a real pleasure to, uh, to see you again and have this conversation and congrats on your book.

Um, thank you. And, uh, my pleasure to be on your podcast.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

Naji Gehchan: I’m Naji, your host, joined today by Karim Benadji, Chief Medical Officer at Inspirno.

Karim has nearly 20 years of experience in biopharmaceutical oncology drug development and most recently served as chief medical officer at GV20 Therapeutics. He previously served as senior vice president head of clinical development and operations for At IO oncology, where he oversaw the development of early and late phase portfolio assets, including the FDA approval of lead Gobi in collateral carcinoma and the phase three sunlight that led to the FDA approval of long serve in combination with the vaccine.

Bifacizumab in patients with metastatic colorectal cancer. Prior to joining Tayo Oncology, Karim spent 13 years with Eli Lilly in oncology development roles of increasing responsibility, including overseeing several immuno oncology programs. Karim received his MD from the University of Oran and completed his oncology fellowship in the Universities of Oran and Paris.

He also received a Master of Science in Pharmacology and Therapeutics in Oncology from the University of Paris. Karim, it’s so great to see you again and have you with me today.

Thank you for the invitation, Nadji. Pleased to be here today.

Naji Gehchan: I would love first to hear more about your personal story. What brought you to medicine first and now being an executive in the biotech industry?

Karim Benhadji: Yeah, so it’s really an interesting question. So I was born and raised in Algeria. I grew up there and when I was really in school, uh, also including in high school, I was really, I had a passion for math, for science, biology, but also computer science. At the end of high school, I was really wondering what to do and I had really strong attraction to technology, uh, computer science, and you had to make a, to make a choice at the time.

And I opened myself to, to suggestion that medicine might. The, uh, good option for me because I like science, uh, because in the field you have research and so on. Um, but I didn’t really know much about it, uh, at the time. But I took really the risk to say, okay, let’s try medicine and see what could happen.

And I really loved it there. So I did my, um, I got my medical degree and then the question after that was, Okay, What specialty to pick up, right? Oncology at the time was really a confidential specialty, uh, not many options for patients at the time. And I had the opportunity to discuss with oncologist, oncologist that got, uh, uh, her specialty, uh, just around that time.

And I said, okay, this might be a really interesting. So let’s go there and see. And really, really quickly when I started my residency in oncology, I really loved it. I mean, I mean, you have really sick patient, you’re taking care of them, but you have the aspect that the field is really evolving very quickly.

You have the research aspect that you are really trying to look for innovation, new solutions for patients. So I really loved that. And I said, okay, this is really, I really, I really like it. And, uh, I would continue in this field. So I continued that and then, uh, moved after that to France to continue my training in oncology.

And because of a research aspect in oncology, I went to the lab and then spent one year in lab doing research. So that was a really, uh, passion for me, really research and looking for new, for innovation for patients. And after that, I was really facing dilemma what to do going back to, uh, clinical practice, uh, doing a PhD after the master, or I got randomly a cold call from a recruiter who was looking for physicians to go to industry.

And then I was introduced an opportunity for Lily to be a clinical research physician. And then I went Entered the industry at the time, I was really curious about industry because as physicians we’re not really export the industry. Your exposure is at most through, at the time through sale reps. Um, we don’t know really what was like black box.

I wonder with the idea. Okay. I, we spend there couple of years and see how it goes. And, and again, I love that Lily really gave me the opportunity to really learn about drug development in the industry. Uh. Got, uh, exposure, uh, to a local experience in France, regional experience in Europe, and then global experience later.

Uh, experience in medical affairs, late stage development, early stage development. So really great career, uh, at Lely that, uh, I really learned everything about drug development there. After nearly 13 years, after a little bit over 13 years as at Lely, the question, okay, what to do next? Um, as a drug developer, you’re to get a new drug, uh, approved for patients.

And I was introduced to an opportunity at Thai Oncology at the time to lead a team, build a team, but also, uh, to get a drug to the finish line like COBE, uh, that was later approved. And, uh, In try parts of Columbia, Katina, GFR to rearrangements. Uh, so that was the key driver where to go to Taiho ecology to get a drug approved.

And I was really glad that I had an opportunity with, uh, that could be approval, but also line extension for long serve in combination with the message in map and Colorado Council. I was able to build. Great team and also got exposed to a different set set up in the pharmaceutical industry, not a big pharma smaller size.

Uh, so you have less expertise in house. Uh, you have also a different style of decision making. Uh, so that was a really great experience and that drove me really to go. We should really further to go smaller organizations. So I, you know, Took the leap and then, uh, to take a job as a CMO in a small biotech and then changed recently to be the Chief Medical Officer at, uh, Inspir now.

So that, that’s really my journey. I really love and I have passion for drug development and bringing innovation for patients.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks for sharing this. And, uh, you’ve, you’ve finished it with the framing of your purpose, which is developing and bringing those, uh, medicines for patient. And it’s, we both know it’s hard.

Biology, it’s hard and having the opportunity to take an asset from early to late phase and getting it in patients hands at the end, making it the medicine is super hard. And you’ve done it, um, Early, late, small, big pharma from France, Europe, U. S., like in very different settings. Uh, what is your key learning through all those experiences, uh, building teams, as you said, and developing drug and oncology to get them to market?

Is there any key learning you would, you would give us?

Karim Benhadji: I mean, yeah, diversity. I mean, you, um, I mean, we come, we are all different, right? Even within the same family, people are really different. And, uh, you get exposed to different culture, different way of working, uh, um, different opinions, styles, and then even within companies and then even in the same country, you see a really different style.

So I think that fascinating aspect where you see different cultures, uh, you, Europe, uh, uh, U. S. Or Asia.

I

Karim Benhadji: always really loved it because it’s really you’re trying really to make your case and to bring people together from different cultures, different backgrounds together for a common purpose. That’s what I really love that aspect that we have that opportunity in Pharma to do it because we work almost globally to bring solutions for patients.

Naji Gehchan: I love it. Like you went immediately, you didn’t go into science and the technical aspect of drug development or clinical operations. You went into people and bringing diverse cultures together on a common purpose. So can you share a little bit more? Because my next question would have been leadership skills that you learned.

So I’d love for you to share a little bit more. What have you developed as leadership skill or the skill you look, uh, as a CMO to build in your team? Um, through through your journey.

Karim Benhadji: Yeah. So so we you don’t get any training about leadership, really. And when you’re really early in your career, you say, okay, oh, the CEO is really the leader.

When you talk when you hear about leadership is you’re really looking really behind. See, who is the general manager? Uh, those are the leaders of the company. But really, with time, you realize that. And then you learn that everyone can be really, really a leader. You don’t need to be a manager to be a leader.

Uh, you can be an individual, uh, contributor and then be a really leader. It’s really to bring people together, uh, and then, uh, working together for common purposes, we discussed, um, for leadership for me is really about being authentic. So we are really empowering others, bringing. People together, but you, you need to be a really authentic.

I mean, you can fake it. People will, will realize that even if they don’t tell you that if you’re, if you are high up. So I think authenticity, being humble, uh, being sometimes vulnerable and then, um, really trying to bring people together and telling them why we are doing this, because at the end of the day, it’s really for patients.

I mean, we all have. Being exposed to patients maybe, uh, directly in as an MD, but also, uh, hit by cancer in family and so on. So it’s really personal and then patients with cancer, I mean, if it’s advanced, they can’t wait really. And every day that we lose in bureaucracy or, uh, making a decision, it has an impact ultimately for patients.

So bringing that also perspective, uh, to everyone is really important.

Naji Gehchan: If you go back in time. to, uh, when you graduated from med school oncology, you went into research in the labs and then you joined pharma and biotech. What would be the advice you’d give your younger self

or something you wish you knew or acted on as you started your career? Yeah,

Karim Benhadji: I think I change over time and I think, uh, probably taking more risks. Because, I mean, culturally, I was probably not open to more risks, uh, as I am today. Uh, so, um, so I took some risks early on in my career, but, uh, I think really being more open for, uh, taking more risks.

Not meaning that you jump over right and left, but, uh, and then also being open to different perspectives, uh, early on. That would be my advice to my young self. Well,

Naji Gehchan: now if we look forward with the different, uh, drug you developed within the oncology overall, obviously it’s one of, um, the places where we’re seeing a lot of innovation, a lot of investment, and we just chatted briefly about, uh, the landscape these days.

What are you most excited about in the next decades for patients living with cancer?

Karim Benhadji: It’s really innovation. I think when I look back 20 years ago when I was just fresh, uh, young oncologist and today, I mean, the number of options, the changes that occurred for patients. I mean, patients are really, uh, took advantage of that, but we still have a lot of things to do.

Uh, I think you see innovation with precision medicine. That’s something. you have not dreamed of, uh, 20 years ago. So I expect that to continue and with, uh, precision medicine, giving access to patients because we have innovative tools right now, but not everyone really have access to those. And then it depends.

Where you are, uh, depends, uh, uh, if you are lucky to have the big center next to you and then access to those therapeutic, uh, options. We have seen a tremendous, um, opportunities with cell based therapies. Uh, so I expect that innovation will continue, uh, in, in those fields. I mean, the artificial intelligence will bring also, uh, new opportunities.

I think it’s I’m always, I call myself, um, a realistic optimist. So I’m really optimistic. I realize that 90 percent of what we do, we go to trash bin. However, in the process we learn a lot and then we make progress to patient. And sometimes it feels just small, but when you add up all the different, uh, Options that would be really, uh, great options for patients.

We see right now, uh, ready from a suppose a D. C. S. So, you know, ecology has, uh, just love these days. Uh, who knows? You will might get surprised in the future. So expect that innovation will come from areas that we are familiar with, but also it can come from. Uh, something that we are completely blind to right now.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah, and you know, as you were sharing your, um, when you were, you know, in Algeria, thinking about your future, you talked a lot about computer science and you love tech, and I was thinking, like, oh, this is the moment, you know, like this is, this is where the full circle is happening with tech coming in. So you shared a little bit about, Obviously, like everyone talks about AI, but really about like computational capabilities and what we can do with this from a drug development to discovery to, uh, any, any thought about this and how, um, the intersection about computing and biology might take us in the next years.

Karim Benhadji: Yeah, I think a lot of companies, a lot of labs are working right now about integration of AI and cancer discovery, basically identifying targets, but AI in order to work, you need really a lot of information, machine learning, and then build your model. And then, uh, so I think. Still have a way to go, but I think it can be there particularly if you use it for chemistry or identifying targets.

But at the end of the day, you still have to do the experiment to see if that works. Uh, so I expect also AI will help a little bit to make our life easier when you do clinical development and clinical trials. Uh, and also earlier on when you do, uh, uh, early discovery. That’s a way to go.

Naji Gehchan: Oh yeah. I fully agree.

And this is, this is the. where humility kicks in. Biology certainly humbles us once you do the experiment and get it into humans. Um, but yeah, exciting future ahead. I’m going to give you now a word and I would love your reaction to it. So the first one is leadership.

Karim Benhadji: So, yeah, I already mentioned it. I mean, the first word is really authentic.

Um, so you got to be a really authentic, uh, as a leader. And then you need really to have a mission that’s clear for you and then, uh, communicating to people. And it’s really as a leader up to you, really. to go to people and explain. Don’t expect people just will read your mind and understand the mission.

So it’s, it’s really, uh, you are here to serve the people, uh, and then get them going in the same direction and with the same speed, uh, toward the mission.

Naji Gehchan: The next one is drug development. For me, it’s the passion.

Karim Benhadji: That’s my first reaction. Um, drug development is really a long, can be painful process. Um, and I said already that in oncology specifically, a high rate of attrition.

But you need really to keep optimism because in the process, you might have a few patients, even if the drug is not working. And you need to Find joy in in simple things. I mean, initiating a trial way. That’s a big celebration. I’m getting a database log. That’s a good celebration. At the end of the day, you design experiments.

You need to execute them and get the results because we owe that to patients. If you start a trial, you have really a question that you want to address, and then you’ve got to execute it. So a lot of things. I mean, people really talk about child development about. We design, uh, trials, we design, you know, designs and so on.

But at the end of the day, once you do that, you need to execute that. If you don’t execute it, you won’t get the answer to the question that, uh, uh, you are asking yourself.

Naji Gehchan: Uh, I love that you’re bringing this because it’s, it’s so true, right? Like we always are excited, which is normal, right? With intellectual Part of drug development, designing trials, thinking about it, the probability of success, but obviously the discipline and how we execute.

And this is the long part, as you said, of making sure that you get, you get things done well executed for the patients where we’re serving is crucial. Uh, and you also reminded us, I think it’s always important to remember that few of those experiments actually end up with a drug being, becoming a medicine for patients.

And that’s truly the humbling piece of what you do every day, what we do every day. We, we celebrate The successful drugs, but also we should not forget to celebrate those who are advanced science, but probably couldn’t bring the, uh, the last phase three child for it to become a medicine. And so it’s, it’s a great reminder that you’re bringing, I don’t know if you have any examples or how you led your teams through this, because I think like those are the big parts of the biotech word that we live through.

We, we work years and sometimes it go and it’s great. And sometimes it Does not so I don’t know if you have any, uh, yeah, I think you’ve got

Karim Benhadji: to be optimistic. And then even when everything is really failing or you’ve got to bring that optimism to the teams and then have the team see the positive things and not focus on the negative things because things will go wrong all the time, but you need to have people say, okay, We, we, we, we got some negative things, but, uh, we are really marching toward our mission and then help the team see the positive things.

Um, at the end of the day, I mean, it’s really a process. Uh, I think people want positive outcome. That’s not always the case. It’s it’s really more the exception rather than the rule. Uh, and then helping people really understand that even if it’s a failure for the outcome of trial, we have patients at the end.

I mean, patient, they come with hope. Sometimes we had a few of them and then. Even if there is that small piece, I can see that. And then, uh, that’s really brings, uh, energy to the team. Say, okay, this is why we are doing it. Uh, and then we have those people in the process. If it’s positive, everyone is happy.

Naji Gehchan: Oh, totally. And as you said, like we, we really don’t control the outcome, actually. Like we can. design optimized, but really we control the execution and bringing a high, um, high quality data with, uh, integrity that we’re all committed to in this industry to answer the scientific questions we’re asking and making sure that we’re focusing on what we can control.

And then the other uncontrollable are really part of. The experiment itself. So what

Karim Benhadji: I say is really towards is really speed and quality. I mean, you’re in the quality, but it has to occur really quickly.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. So the third one is, uh, somehow related, uh, biotech, uh,

Karim Benhadji: biotech. So it’s really an interesting world.

And, um, because

You have

Karim Benhadji: the concentration of really in a small environment of really everything. I mean, you have the science, you have the business, you have drug development in between, and then you have to juggle with everything. So it can be really overwhelming for people, uh, but can be also exciting because you will Uh, do very different things.

Really in the same day, you can interact with investors, the board, and, uh, you are still doing drug development. You talk about science, and you can still, at the same time, you have to fix the copier because no one will fix it for you. You have to do things yourself. So I think the, the biotech wise is really, uh, fascinating.

Uh, you get really, uh. Positive experience there, if you like it, and not everyone would really like it. Uh, you got to do things that you have done so many years back in your career. Um, you might not do it as well. Uh, you won’t have also the expertise that you’ll find in big pharma or midsize organizations.

And, uh, you need to admit that you can’t know it all. And if you need to find expertise outside when you need to, so it’s, it’s really a great, um, experience and it can be stressful because right now the environment for biotechs, uh, is, uh, is very stressful in order of, uh, raising funds. And then, uh, that’s, that’s, uh, complicated for the field right now.

The last one is spread love and organizations.

Karim Benhadji: Yeah, so that’s a really interesting one. So when I saw , your, the title of your podcast, I mean, first time. Okay. Oh n It’s really interesting because it’s really bored, uh, ’cause people don’t talk about really loving organizations. Right. Uh, but when you think about it, I really like, um, the bold approach that you’re taking it because at the end of the day.

I you need really to take care of patients, take care of all your people surrounding you to help the patients and you need really some love in the process. Otherwise it’s not going to work. Uh, so you can call it differently, but, uh, I think that’s really important. And then, uh, we want really to work together for a common mission and you can’t achieve that without love.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you for that, Karim. Any final word of wisdom for leaders around the world?

Karim Benhadji: Be positive, believe in your mission, um, and, uh, take care of the people, uh, that, uh, surround you and help you, and then you will find success in the process.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much again for being with me today and this great chat.

Karim Benhadji: Thank you for the invitation.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to Spread Love and Organizations podcast.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I’m Naji, your host, joined today by Suman Lal, managing director of technology innovation studio, TINTS, a physical space in Kendall square that brings together business leaders, scientists, serial entrepreneurs, investors, Industry experts, corporate innovation teams, and policy experts to explore and apply tools and models in innovations.

Suman is also a senior advisor at the Cambridge Innovation Center, CIC, that operates innovation campuses and labs across cities in the U. S., Europe, and Asia, and in his previous role worked closely with the leadership team to advise diverse stakeholders, uh, stakeholders in cities and regions around the world on building innovation infrastructure and ecosystems.

He is also senior advisor to the Venture Café Global Institute that operates the Venture Café gatherings in 15 cities, often described as the heartbeat of several innovation districts. And I can attest to that. Suman has deep experience in the area of technology commercialization by making independent inventions, licensing intellectual properties.

From major research institutions to four new companies and operating venture studios, where he took interim CEO roles at the portfolio company. Prior to this, Suman did technical sales and distribution for 15 early stage companies over a five year period, gaining valuable insight into how early stage companies transitioned into profitable and scalable businesses.

He has an MD in clinical medicine and an MSc in human genetics and did his PhD in precision medicine and clinical pharmacology. Suman also received his MBA from MIT as a Sloan Fellow focusing on innovation and global leadership. It is so great to have you with me today and, uh, see you again. Thank you, Najee.

Suman Lal: Thanks for having me. And, uh, yeah. Looking forward to this conversation.

Naji Gehchan: First, I want to hear more about your personal story. We know one another, but I want to dig in your personal story this time. How did it all start medicine, genetics, pharmacology, and now a serial entrepreneur and startup builder.

Tell us more about you. Yeah, I know.

Suman Lal: Happy to, happy to give some background. So I’m, uh, you know, originally from India and, uh, back, uh, back home in Kerala, where I come from generally, you know, you don’t have too many career choices if you are good in your studies and, and then, you know, you go to medical school or, or become an engineer.

So I, uh, uh, just happened to, you know, uh, get through the, the entrance exams, uh, to, to med school. And, uh, yeah, in the second year of med school, what actually happened was I, I happened to pick up a book by Ayn Rand and, you know, read, read Atlas Shrugged and then Found and Head and at that time that kind of influenced me a lot.

And I sort of decided that, Hey, this is. I’m not going to be a doctor. I want to, I want to explore other things. So that made the rest of the four or five years easy in terms of going through med school, because I knew that I was not going to, you know, uh, continue in that place in that journey. And, uh, uh, I realized that medicine can be in some ways, put a lot of constraints around you in terms of areas where you can practice.

uh, geographically also, right? And so I, I decided to step into the world of research and that, that really took me to Singapore. And I thought actually I would stay for one year in Singapore, but, uh, you know, the place was very comfortable and, uh, Singapore was investing a lot into building a huge, uh, life sciences and healthcare innovation cluster in the city, and I thought I should just be a part of it.

And, uh, I ended up, uh, staying in Singapore for 12 years. Uh, so part of that was, uh, doing research, uh, doing my masters and my PhD. Uh, but then I also realized that, uh, I’m not. A lot of this has been like experimenting and actually trying to see if I really like it and if not, move on. Right. So that, that was the case with medicine.

That was the case with the research, but remember each experiment was. costing me five to six years, right? So, so that was my second experiment. And I realized I’m not going to be an academic research with a tenure track and stuff. So I thought I should go into industry. So I decided that the best way to do, uh, to learn about the industry and the world of business is to do sales.

And, uh, you know, I became a salesperson, um, I became a distributor, uh, for almost 15, uh, companies in the early stage, you know, life sciences, uh, field. I can tell you, uh, this was the most humbling experience, you know, your MD, PhD. Just gets thrown out of the window. Nobody cares. Right. You’re basically trying to sell and, uh, Oh, it actually helps you really prepare for your future dating life because you know, you get rejection every day, like, so, so, but, but amazing experience.

I think I actually gave a talk. At one of the institutes in Singapore to the postdoc association that basically the gist of the talk was all of you guys should just quit what you’re doing and do other things. No, no, you’re not going to get a Nobel prize. Okay. You’re not going to discover this molecule to cure cancer.

Um, there are a lot of other things to do in this world. So try, try other things. And one of them could be sales. Um, so, so I did that for five years and it was just incredible. Uh, very humbling, but very, very valuable experience. But, uh, after five years and, you know, becoming a Singapore citizen, I thought I should, uh, try something new, which is where we crossed paths in the world of MIT, because I only applied to one place by the way, right.

And I know, uh, when I was looking at what is a, what is a great, uh, Institution with a background for people like ourselves to go to. Uh, that is, it was not a question, right, in terms of, look, I should just come to MIT. And well, it’s been 10 years since I made that decision that I can share more, but that was really what, uh, the, the, the pre MIT US days were like, I mean, that, that was the first half of the journey.

Second half is like, yeah, we can, we can get into the details of that has been fun. Well, I want to get into the details of this and really maybe as you go through the details of the second half, as you said, or this past decade, I really want to think through it because you’ve been like challenging yourself.

And as you said, like each bet you made, like you’re an MD, you’ve done PhD. So it’s long bets. And then re challenge all your knowledge and all, uh, yourself to do something with curiosity, with more. And you obviously now building an ecosystem that would bring all those different experts that you’ve been at some point to bring, to bring breakthrough innovation.

So I’d love as you talk to us in this past decade, uh, in, um, in Boston after MIT, uh, how do you think through it? With your past experiences and expertise that you’ve built. Yeah, I think, you know, it’s, you know, talking about moving from one thing to the other, there’s, it’s a lot of, there’s a lot of good curiosity, but I actually think it is also for me about, I also, I used to think what brings me the biggest joy.

And to me, it has always been the joy of understanding something. And that’s kind of why I’ve stayed in school a lot, you know, learning, there’s continuous learning, right? So, I’ve always designed my life and career around, is there an opportunity to learn? So whether it is in medicine, whether it is in research, whether now you’re doing sales between by the, by the way, between all of those three, now we are talking maybe 15 years, right?

And, uh, coming to MIT of course was incredible learning experience, but then in the world of innovation, as you apply that in, in the real world. It’s, it’s nonstop learning again, right? And but this time, as was the case, uh, at MIT in the Sloan program, you’re learning a lot from not an academic environment, but also from, uh, your peers and your colleagues and customers and other innovators.

And you know, in the world of innovation, now this is, you’re talking about scientists and, uh, inventors and investors, entrepreneurs, and, uh, you know, industry executives. It is, everybody is trying to, and everybody I realize is like me and, you know, have their, had their own journey to get here and want to do something impactful and apply all their knowledge in solving, you know, the variety of problems that we have in this world.

And there is that, there is that connection that you have with all of these folks, but also a shared purpose and, and it has been just amazing to be able to work with. Interesting people doing interesting things. And that is what most of the last 10 years has been. And because of the broad background that I’ve had, uh, I could basically apply it in any area of healthcare and life sciences, when you talk about medicine and, you know, healthcare.

But, uh, interestingly, my first startup turned out to be in cosmetics. And, you know, I I ended up in hair care, who knew, right? But talk about pivoting. Uh, and you know, the market tells you where you should go and, uh, yeah, that’s, that’s, uh, that’s what got me started and that took me to New York. Um, so I spent five years in New York City.

Uh, where I was actually all about haircare.

Yeah. That’s fascinating. I didn’t know about that. Yeah. You know, guess what? The first job after MIT Sloan with my MBA as a Sloan fellow was to actually take over and operate a hair salon where I was the, I was a hairstylist. So this is what I did in New York for two years after graduation from MIT. And, uh, I can guarantee you, my parents were not happy.

I mean, they have not been happy since I left medical school, but, uh, since then it has been downhill because, uh, you know, dad calls me one day and like. You, you told me you’re going to America and, you know, going to MIT and doing an MBA. I heard now you are a, a stylist, like, what are you doing with your life?

So this was hard to explain. And uh, I did tell him that, look, this is about, um, product development and this is about, uh, entrepreneurship and, uh, yeah, that didn’t, that didn’t fly very well, but. Yeah, but it was an amazing journey because we were originally developing a product for medical devices and we realized that we could actually use the same principles of the technology to break the disulfide bonds in the hair.

And, well, we know the world of, uh, you know, uh, medical devices and drugs really well. There’s a lot of regulations. Guess what? In the world of cosmetics, there is no, nobody, nobody is regulating it. And, and because of that, there’s a lot of very toxic stuff out there, which is being used every day. And I found an opportunity to actually develop something that is safe, a safe way to straighten hair.

But then there was no regulatory hurdles. I could just open up a salon and try it. And I did. And, uh, yeah, that was the first few years of, uh, New York City and doing cosmetics and beauty and hair care in New York City. I can guarantee you it’s really fun.

So, so take us from, uh, doing cosmetics. And haircare in New York City to now building tents. Yeah. So, and tell us a little bit more about this amazing new venture that you’re creating. Sure. The short version of that is, uh, I, uh, I brought on a, an amazing CEO to, uh, to take over the project in haircare who came from the world of beauty and cosmetics.

And then I was exploring what else to do. And this is really serendipity, right? I was having a coffee with one of my friends. And, uh, really talking about what’s next. And he said, maybe I should meet his dad. And, uh, uh, I ended up meeting his dad who turned out to be a professor at Columbia who had developed an amazing technology, uh, using intravenous omega 3 fatty acids.

You know, the fish oil that we all take, uh, are supposed to take, uh, uh, which if you inject it, you could actually reduce, uh, tissue organ injuries. By 90%. Now we are talking about, you know, heart attacks and strokes, uh, which can be prevented by this injection of the safe, uh, fish oil. So I, I, I looked at the results and I was like, this is amazing data.

Um, I could actually commercialize this. And I actually formed a company from, uh, based on the technology from Columbia university, uh, to actually develop a therapeutics for treating stroke. And, uh, well, I joke that I didn’t really move from, you know, very far. I went from hair to brain, uh, but it really went very, you know, a completely different space from beauty and cosmetics to now, uh, early stage biotech.

So I found myself as the CEO of a startup in biotech, but that took me into this amazing world of, of drug discovery and development, which I think is the most fascinating The most complex, I once commented on LinkedIn that, uh, you know, it’s easier to send something to Mars than actually develop a drug.

I mean, it’s just, you know, it’s, it’s biology, right? I mean, you cannot predict what’s happening and yeah, I’ve sort of stayed in that world since that brought me back to Boston, which is the Mecca for, uh, for biotech, for doing that thing. So, you know, people like you and the rest of our colleagues. Uh, doing amazing things in Boston.

So I came here and, uh, you know, the first place I took a desk was at CIC, the Cambridge innovation center. And again, you know, uh, chance. I clicked the newsletter, which, uh, an internal newsletter from CIC, which, uh, led me to joining CIC in their consulting team. Uh, which, uh, was really about talking to, uh, cities and states and regions around the world to build places like Kendall Square.

So that was really about building innovation ecosystem. So I found myself on two ends of this innovation spectrum. On one end, I was trying to see if this molecule binds to this target. What is the affinity? Is this a development candidate? What kind of experiments you need to do to get, take it to an IND?

Um, Thank you. And at the same time, I was also talking to governments in Singapore and Saudi Arabia and, you know, Mexico and Latvia about, uh, how do you build an ecosystem and innovation ecosystem like this? And, uh, so that, that was an amazing experience, uh, which, which led me to really understand the power of communities and the utility of space.

Thanks. As a very anchoring mechanism to bring people together and, you know, post COVID, it became really relevant. And I should also mention that what we learned at MIT in the world of system dynamics is incredibly, which is an incredibly powerful field. I wish it was applied in a much more, you know, uh, in a variety of settings.

Um, and I, I looked at, if you look at Kendall square, it’s an ecosystem. And I realized that, Hey, I could actually build an ecosystem, a mini ecosystem in, if you look at it through the system dynamics framework, where space is the anchoring setup, like CIC, the Cambridge innovation center, where we just now the world’s largest innovation campus, by the way, um, where.

On top of that space, and that is, that is what I’m building right now. This is the technology innovation studio. If you take space as the base layer, okay, you’re talking office space, co working space, labs, all of that. And you build a layer on top of that, which is a, which is about a curated network. And you bring people around specific topics.

interest groups. So for example, I formed a quantum interest group to look at applications of quantum in different areas, starting with discovery, uh, one in consumer products, uh, you know, health, productivity, and wellness, biotech, et cetera. That becomes a very active layer where people come together. When you bring interesting people together in from different areas, Interesting things are bound to happen.

So that’s the second layer. The third layer is where I have opportunities to actually do consulting for all the people that want to engage with the Boston ecosystem and through the studio. And that’s mostly for large corporates. And the layer on top is an innovation lab where anybody can come with an idea and experiment and develop their MVP and do their customer discovery, market validation.

And if you think there is something interesting there, we form a company and then what, right? So that, that’s why I am building a layer on top of that. And this is in participation with the MIT. alumni angels of Boston, uh, and New York actually to form an angel group, right? So think about it as an ecosystem tense.

The Technology Innovation Studio is a mini ecosystem where it’s a combination of a dedicated physical space, a curated network, high quality events and programs. Consulting, product development and innovation and investments. So that’s, that’s really what I’m building. And I have no illusion that this is going to be quick.

This is a 10 year, 20 year game. It is really designed for keeping myself busy, satisfy that curiosity and joy, uh, aspects. But, but really ways to create value in the innovation world and also have structures and vehicles to capture that value. I know this is a, sorry, this is a long answer, but that’s really, you know, it’s, it’s really a, uh, a mini ecosystem that I’m building.

This is, this is ambitious, great, powerful. And my follow up to this is if you look into the next decade. You know, we talked about the past and now we’re talking about the future with what you’re building. What are you most excited about to deliver through Tins? You know, in the intersection of tech, medicine, innovation.

Yeah, so I think really what I’m hoping to be when I say I as in Tins becomes a When I say, you know, it’s a studio, but it’s actually also a playground. It is an, it’s a mechanism to accelerate innovation. And I sort of become, my keyword would be Playground, studio, facilitate and accelerate innovation, right?

If I can actually, and be an enabler, and if I can be all of that to work with different stakeholders, whether you’re a scientist, whether you’re an investor, whether you’re an entrepreneur, a small or a big company, I could actually work with each of these stakeholders In the innovation ecosystem, and you’re talking also about governments and agencies and all sorts of groups to help accelerate innovation.

And that could be by infrastructure, that could be by making a medicine, that could be by developing a new business model, uh, or education. I hope that TINSS becomes a new model for innovation, an innovation engine, which can be then replicated. In innovation cities around the world, and I want to develop that model, which I can then replicate because fundamentally these stakeholders and the nature of innovation in all of these ecosystems are the same.

And I want to develop that prototype here, experiment with it, get to a certain point where I can take it to other parts of the world, and hopefully I’m able to do that through my partnership with CIC, which is now the world’s largest innovation campus and is already present. In 11 going on 13 cities, so it is a road map to expanding globally through CIC, because it is also about physical space, as I mentioned, it is an anchoring element of this.

So CIC, if I may say, is the biggest sort of cluster. In all the cities that CIC operates. Okay. It started in Japan three years ago. It’s this biggest hub in Japan. Okay. Biggest hub in Kendall square, biggest one in Rotterdam in Warsaw. If I can actually work with the biggest cluster to actually now also deploy in these ecosystems, I believe it can be, it can be really powerful.

So that’s my dream.

And I know you do everything to get there. So I’m looking forward for this journey. Uh, that started really great. Like, you know, we will have backlinks in our podcast to your website. You’re doing amazing, uh, activities already through then. So really congrats on picking this up that fast. I’m going to give you a word now, uh, Suman, and I would love your reaction to it.

Yeah. So the first one is leadership. I have come to realize that, and I think about this every day. That to make true impact, I’ve looked at again from a, and I’m actually really making the Venn Sim diagram with my colleague on the system dynamics model of accelerating innovation. And if you draw that diagram with all the variables in there, you would really come to the point of realizing that it’s fundamentally about Issues like trust and leadership that makes the maximum impact and that has a, that has an enormous impact, which applies, which, which amplified impact, I should say across everything.

And part of the reason why I am developing an innovation immersion program for high school and college students intense is to bring them into our world and show them examples of leadership. Because that’s what makes all the difference. You have to, you have to lead. There are amazing talented people who are really great at what they do, but also need direction and that leadership to then bring that together into designing something or making a product or building a business and, you know, solving a problem.

So I find it as, and I, I try to be. learning and be surrounding myself with the leaders that I can learn from every day. And I find that, uh, yeah, there’s a long way to go. I mean, I know you it’s, it’s humbling. Uh, but, uh, yeah, long answer, but I should say that it’s, it’s really the most important word. I mean, I’m glad you, you, you mentioned that.

So the second word I’m sure you’d love to is entrepreneurship. Yeah. Well, I have some, uh, Bill Olet says that, you know, everybody can be an entrepreneur and, uh, you know, His book says it’s, uh, it’s, uh, it’s about disciplined entrepreneurship. Doesn’t apply to me because I’m, I’m really not disciplined about, you know, most things.

But, uh, I, I’ve been wanting to actually maybe take a class or talk about the case against entrepreneurship. I actually believe that it’s not for everybody. It actually, uh, requires it. It’s, it’s not just about getting out of your comfort zone. I think it requires a, uh, a lot of things to come together. Uh, to be successful in that journey.

And a lot of people are not really designed for it. And I, I, myself, I have been an entrepreneur for a very long time and I question myself every day, like, is this, is this the right thing to do? I was. Uh, yesterday evening, I was, uh, uh, listening to a founder who has built a 4 billion company who basically started his talk by saying that the biggest challenge for him was, was really trying to decide whether this is the right thing to do and to jump into the world of entrepreneurship.

And it was not easy. And we talk a lot about. people who are successful in the world of entrepreneurship because you know, that’s what we read in the news, but, uh, it is a tough space. It’s, it’s, it’s really about a lot about failure, but getting back up and trying again. So I think it boils down to grit.

And, and, and really not, not giving up and fundamentally how long you can keep doing that. I mean, we all, uh, look to the courts by Terry Roosevelt about, uh, you know, the man or the woman in the, in the arena who, you know, who, who is still standing and then actually, you know, fight in the battle. So I think, um, you’ve got to, you’ve got to really enjoy the journey.

And I think, I think one part that people also always may not consider is. health, family, friendships, uh, you know, whether your spouse, uh, is, is, is on board with these things or your partner, um, there are a variety of considerations and these are not taught in schools and, uh, you know, when you, when you just try to do this in the real world, well, uh, that’s, that’s when you get punched in the face and it’s, uh, You, you ought to, you know, at some point you’ll start enjoying it and drinking your own blood.

I think that’s, that’s, that’s the real world of entrepreneurship. So I, I would say beware of what you wish for. The third one is Kendall Square. Yeah. Yeah. I think I feel very blessed. I’m right now, uh, sitting at the Venture Cafe in Kendall Square at CIC. And if you look at it from, I sort of, you know, tend to take it for granted sometimes, but if you look at it from the rest of the world perspective, America leads the world in, in, in the area of entrepreneurship and innovation.

And if you go to zoom in, you know, Boston is one of the hubs, uh, for, for innovation and technology and entrepreneurship. And when you come to Boston, it’s Cambridge and in Cambridge, it’s Kendall Square, right? And it is the most innovative, without a doubt, I think it’s the most innovative square mile on the planet.

And to be immersed in that ecosystem and work in the center of the center of the universe of innovation. Uh, it took me 25 years to get here, but I think it’s a blessing, uh, to be surrounded by, you know, like minded people, uh, who are working to change the world. And, uh, it’s, it’s actually, it’s magical. And, uh, I think it is reproducible if you actually do it the right way, but it always takes time.

Uh, but meanwhile, one of my desires and goals is to Leverage what is in Kendall Square and develop mechanisms to transfer and share and collaborate and partner with other similar aspiring cities around the world. Because at the end of the day, we are all trying to solve global problems and it has to be achieved through collaboration and Kendall Square cannot do it alone.

And there is great talent. Technology, great people everywhere. And I would love to see that those highways being built between Kendall square and, and Riyadh and Singapore and, you know, and Madrid and Tokyo. So, uh, and, and other places. So, yeah. Um, that’s, uh, that’s how I’m, that’s my view of the world right now.

The last one is spread love and organizations. Wow. That’s, uh, you know, I. I am really, uh, looking forward to working closely with you on, on learning about, you know, all that experiences and, uh, that you have, uh, gained over time. I think it is also related to the topic of leadership that you started off with, because fundamentally if you don’t demonstrate and, and, and, and apply compassionate and authentic leadership in organizations.

then it’s very hard to achieve its full potential. And I hope by some of this work that you do and by others, we get to share that knowledge and experience of authenticity. of compassion, uh, of hard work and empathy. And those in combination is, is designed to make not just individuals, but also organizations really achieve their true potential.

And, uh, yeah, we, we continue to do our part and be in that journey. So, uh, we are all students, uh, in that respect. Of course, and, um, it’s one of the shared purposes we both have. Any final word of wisdom, Suman, to health, to healthcare leaders around the world? Well, I, I think, uh, healthcare, uh, is, remains out of reach to A big part of the world, even in 2024, and a lot of us in operating in different aspects of healthcare have a tremendous responsibility to, to bring care to where it is needed.

And sometimes it does not require amazing technology. It is really doing what is right, doing the right thing, um, and, uh, keeping the patient in mind. And sometimes actually even stepping into the world of actually prevention, uh, which is probably better than cure. And, and at those times, you know, we, we have to, of course we all have, we all have the responsibility to, to build a business and have the organization successful.

But in the world of healthcare, it really requires looking at problems through a different lens than in other industries where. You have the human being and the patient in front of you. And, uh, and that might require unconventional thinking and business models. And I hope, uh, industry leaders set an example for that and, and the rest of the world, uh, will, will follow.

Well, thank you so much again for being with me today. It was a great conversation. Thank you. Thank you so much, Najee. And, uh, yeah, I look forward to. Uh, continuing to, you know, hear, uh, more of your, uh, your, uh, podcasts and, uh, other speakers and also learn from all the work that you’re doing. So thank you.

Thank you for having me. Thank you. Same, same here. And I’m sure we will cross paths, uh, through tense, uh, in the near future. Thank you all. Thank you all for listening to Spread Love and Organizations podcast. Subscribe and connect with us on spreadloveio. com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement our world so desperately needs.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Welcome to Spread Love and Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose. I’m Najee, your host, joined today by Diana Haidar, Director of Direct Sales at NASCO Insurance Group. Diana has been a key part of the NASCO Insurance Group for 20 years, starting in third party administration and then moving into the direct broker business.

She now covers Middle East direct portfolio, including medical, general, and life insurance. Diana started her career as a certified psychotherapist. Then worked at a mountain hospital with children with special needs. She holds also a master’s degree in hospital and health management from OSCP and ESAR.

With 20 years of hands on experience in the medical field as a professional, as well as an insurance industry, Diana has been involved in various aspects of the business, from operations and sales to planning and growth. For over two decades, Diana has been empowering teams, encouraging fresh perspectives, and finding new ways for NASSCO Middle East to grow in the world of direct saves.

She’s a leader dedicated to making a lasting impact on the insurance industry. Diana, it’s so amazing to see you again after so many years and have you with me today. Yeah. Thank you, Naji. Really, it’s really amazing to see you too. We’re not gonna say for how many years, because let us keep our ages.

Diana Haydar: It will age us, yeah. Yeah. But a lot of years so far. And I still remember Naji from school days. From literally all the ups and downs and growing up, the teenager’s time, all these times that you spend together. I’m really happy and proud of what you are also Najee now, to be honest.

This is something that makes me proud a lot. Yeah same here, Diana. And really, my first question to you was, let’s catch up, let’s catch up on your journey from our school days, as you said, very early on in Lebanon to, then you did physiotherapy, and now you’re one of the known leaders in the insurance industry in the Middle East.

So can you share a little bit more your personal story with us? Yeah, sure. Naji, I grew up in a family, in a very modest family in Lebanon, Where my dad was in the army, in the Lebanese army. My mom was a housewife and we are four sisters. We are four sisters with very close ages. So we are really too close as you can imagine a house with four girls, how it looks like.

So growing up was extremely amazing. We have beautiful childhood memories. We have teenage memories, which are really amazing. We are so close to each other. Thank God. This is something this is a blessing that we still enjoy it till now, despite that we everyone is in different country. I have two sisters in the US, one sister in Lebanon, and I’m here in Dubai.

But despite all the distances, we are too close. And this is really what marks my childhood the most Najee. So we were at the same school. You and me at the same class, maybe for 14, 15 years, next to each other. So the school memories are the best memories that I have. We really enjoyed our time a lot.

And I think That our future started from school time because we were lucky to have a school where we had freedom of speech. If you remember very well, Naji, we used to do this political debate sociology, economy talking about the war, growing up during wartime. So we had a lot to talk about and which made made us a little bit older than our age comparing to to other schools where they didn’t have the chance to have these conversations with their teachers and with their superiors.

So it started from there. The leadership started from there being delegated the class representing the class. Many times you and me together. Also, actually, many times we were elected by our colleagues at school. So basically, my childhood was a very good childhood at home at school. The only terrible memories I have are the war times which we had to suffer from moving from a country, from a region to another, running away from where they are bombing now.

Are they bombing Beirut or or outside Beirut? So it was really it was really something that I can never forget. And having to struggle with, as I told you, Naji, my dad was a soldier in the Lebanese army. And at a particular time they were they were like attacked by other militia.

By other countries. There was like the civil war and then the war against our country neighbors and the Lebanese army were really attacked so many times. He had to hide at home. My mom had to clean his clothes and put them to, to dry inside house because nobody from the neighbor should know that my dad is here.

So that they don’t attack our house. So we have, I have this black side of my childhood. However, it taught me a lot, Najee. It taught me resilience. It taught me finding solutions. to any problem that we might encounter in life. It taught me all the family bonding that we have.

And the neighbors also, we were all on one heart. We were all hiding together in the same shelters. And so this war, wartime, it really marked my childhood also. We learned from it. We learned from it, especially that we don’t want it to happen again. So this is the childhood. I’ll move a little bit to my university university past.

So I started, as you said, as a physiotherapist in the Lebanese university, which is the national university in Lebanon. And I was lucky to to work at many at many areas, especially with the kids, with the children having special needs, with special needs, so that you meet these this segment of the population who are in need of, who are dependent who struggle, especially in Lebanon, at a country where it’s not really equipped.

For with people with determination, people with needs. So you have to, you feel with the parents, you feel with the children with the entire medical system, how much it’s, it doesn’t support these these diseases. They have to beg to do some surgeries for their kids because insurance companies do not cover congenital cases.

They have to go and get get help from the ministry of health. And the Ministry of Health in Lebanon is really is really politicized, if we can say it. So depending on from which religion you are, you might get help or not. So this is like the struggle that we used to have. And then I started to feel that I enjoyed the therapy.

To be honest with you, Naji, I worked as an establishment and as a freelancer for around from 2003 till 2011. But meanwhile I spotted in my character that I can be a leader. I can be more than a physiotherapist with my patient and one single and one single cell or cabinet. So I discovered some skills, which I didn’t know that I have.

And this is during my, my my career life. And this is where I was also hired as a consultant for physiotherapy and NASCO group. So NASCO at that time, we had the split with with an existing TPA, a third party administrator. Let me just explain what is a third party administrator. So we manage the the the insurance company’s entire cycle.

The insurance company, they sell the policy, the medical policy, and they pay the claims. The entire approvals customer service the contract with the healthcare providers, the claims processing, all these, the reconciliation, financial reconciliation are done by a TPA. So this was my area of expertise.

I started as a simple consultant for physiotherapy guidelines, So how many sessions to cover this? How many sessions to cover? What are the guidelines? And then I liked this job. I I got involved in in NASCO group for this role. And I did my MBA meanwhile, in the ESA, in Ecole Supérieure des Affaires, in hospital and health management, as you mentioned in the introduction.

And I started from there. And I started growing and and like getting promoted inside inside NASCO, and I’ve been with them for the past 20 years. So everyone now will guess the age, but it’s fine. And yeah, and now I’m I moved to Dubai three years and a half ago. I moved to Dubai when after the Beirut blast, There were so many signs.

There was the collapse the economical crisis, all the crisis, all this stuff. So there was there were so many signs talking in my head that Jana, you should leave. I have three kids, Najeeb. And I wanted so bad for them to be a little bit less afraid. Then I was when I was a kid, so the memory of the Beirut blast they heard it.

We were not in Beirut. We live far from Beirut. However, we heard it. My husband was in Beirut. We lost contact with him for about two hours, so it was horrible. This period was horrible to us. So and then there was, the revolution and before that in 2019, and which also we had to struggle a lot to reach work to all this stuff, but it was really horrible.

So I got this opportunity in the UAE and Dubai and I came here. I started. Literally from scratch. Picking a new house, all this picking new school for the kids meeting new friends starting from scratch, even though I’m still, I was still in Nasco. I was transferred from Beirut to Dubai.

However, you have to build. To to prove yourself in this new environment, and I can tell you, Naji, the environment in Dubai is the, is there’s a huge difference between the environment, especially the work environment in Dubai than in Lebanon. And I started, and thank God, now three years and a half have passed, and I feel that I’m, I’ve been here since forever, and I like it.

where I am. I’m extremely happy with all the changes that I’ve done in life. It only evolved me to the, it only took me to a better place for me and my family and my kids. So this is a small brief, not sure if it’s too small. Thanks, Diana for sharing. Obviously, a lot of what you said touches, goes to home.

I want to, before I ask you about Dubai, because I’m interested in what are the differences, as you said, really like leading cross countries, because I’m sure you are leading also a team across the region. So I’d love to go there. And for you being a woman in leadership, I’m really interested to dig in there.

But just before that, if we go back, you talked about school, you reminded me about the debates, the healthy debates we had, the revolutions we did sometimes. So what did you take from, from school, from your years in Lebanon with the childhood and war, really from a leadership standpoint, did you reflect about who you are today as a leader?

And what brought you to who you are today from what we lived before? Of course, Naji. I believe I am what I am now because of this period that we that we had in that we had in Lebanon and the school time and the war time. So you’re referring to school and war time, no? Okay. So it taught us a lot, Naji.

If you remember very well, we used to be at the classroom when they start when the bombs start falling. So they took us all in the bus, go back home or they call their parents, our parents to pick us home. So imagine you are a kid, nine, 10 years old, and then your life is at risk, your parents coming to pick you up.

Their life is at risk. Your siblings and other classes where you don’t know if they are afraid or not. All these it’s, it, it made us stronger. It made us stronger. It made us more agile in our corporate world now because change can happen like this. Everything is okay. You don’t know what’s going on.

Then suddenly you have something, a major thing happening around you, which you’re not involved in, but it is happening. So you have to act fast. You have to think fast. And most importantly, Naji, is the tomorrow. We used to go to home and we did, we do our homework because tomorrow we might be going back to school.

It’s not that the word stops. So I’m not sure if you also, my parents used to be extremely strict at that point, is that if today there are bombs, Tomorrow there are no bombs. You’re going back to school and you’re going to focus on whatever the teacher is telling you. So this split between the fear and focusing on your future is what we apply on every single day in our corporate life.

Because everything is moving. Look at the pandemic. Look now what’s going on in the Middle East. And I work in the Middle East. And then suddenly you have to shift this is going on. However, I need to go on also with my career with my objectives with my vision with leading my team with what’s going on.

What should be going on in my career. So this really made us what we are. So to double click on this, Gianna obviously you’re in an industry that is by itself transforming we’ve been hearing it for a decade at least now, and for sure tomorrow will be even more change and you’re in a region, as you just said, In custom turmoil and challenges.

So how are you applying those leadership skills that you just shared with us? And I love how you framed it. I’ve never thought about it that way, but I certainly lived exactly the same as you did, like dealing with the unexpected, but then immediately refocusing on tomorrow as if tomorrow will just be normal again, regardless, right?

And you have to go through it and doing your homework, right? I think this discipline of you have to do whatever you need to do, regardless of if tomorrow would exist. So how are you transmitting this Largely to your team now, and several of them did not live this right. I’ll you, I’ll give you a small example.

Before I came here I moved here to Dubai in 2021. So in 2019 there was the revolution in Lebanon, the civil revolution. And it was, it was a big thing back then. So half of the population was like participating to these riots. And I live, as I told you, I don’t live in Beirut. I live a little bit far from Beirut.

So they used to close the roads. With with how do we call it? Tires, like flaming tires. So I have three how do we call it? Obstacles of flaming tires on my way to work. It’s, if it’s, there’s at J’ita, there’s at Dawra, and there’s at Jisr al Watin. So I have to pass only because I live in J’ita and Zouk Mosbih, mainly.

And I have a team and we work in medical insurance. where people will not stop falling sick. People will not stop needing for for their medication, whether chronic or acute medication. People has have planned surgeries. You have all these stuff. And I used to handle the portfolio, a very big portfolio for best assistance.

So I had a thousands of members, which I need to take care of about. their, about their experience, their claims, their complaints, all this was part of my job. And I had a team of four, four people, and we all live outside Beirut. So every day, because they close the road at 5 a. m. Imagine they start closing and putting fire to these tires at 5 a.

m. And personally, not only because whether you are supporting the revolution or the riots or not, in my perspective of life, nothing should stop you from doing your job. I cannot make excuses that they are closing the road, the roads, they’re blocking the roads. I have to be there and so is my team.

So I used to wake up at 4 a. m. and it was the entire time of the revolution at 4 a. m. get dressed kiss my kids goodbye and my husband and go to work before they close the roads. And so is my team. And I had to do this you So that they also have the courage to do it also on their own and to come to the office because in our job, we cannot work remotely, especially with the internet condition in Lebanon, and there was not also the pandemic was not there when the revolution starts started.

So no one was really ready for a work from home environment. So I made sure. I didn’t skip one single day. We were there for our clients. We were there for everyone who needed us. Of course, we limited a little bit our moves because when they block the roads, you cannot go anywhere. We made sure to leave the office at also the exact time where they open a little bit the roads for people to go back home and then we reached we and we reach our home safe and we look at the tomorrow.

What time we’re gonna move. Would it be worse? Would it be good? So this is a small example. Where nothing stopped us where I have to to be the strongest. I have to look the strongest. I have to behave like I’m the bravest. Although I cannot tell you, Naji, that I wasn’t scared. There was a time where I moved a little bit late from home, and they blocked the road in front of me at Zouk Mosbih.

And khalas, there was fire everywhere. So I had to go from the mountains and Abu Mizan area, if going from Layat, Bikfaya, and going down like one, one, one hour and a half just to to skip all this in the mountains and then go to work. And I was extremely scared. Because I don’t know the roads.

I’m alone. I’m a woman. The security and safety at that time work like you can forget about them in Lebanon. So and but I made it I made sure to make it every single day for my team. And then I knew that if anything happens to me. The team will do the same with or without me. They will never skip a day.

They will never stop serving the people that they are supposed to do to serve. And this was for me and I believe for them, a huge lesson and resilience. and staying positive and on knowing your responsibilities, Najeeb. Yeah. And you’re touching something super powerful that, we talk a lot about, it’s this huge, true care for one another.

You said something powerful, like they would be here for me. They would be here for, Each other and they would never skip a day for again, because you’re the purpose also that you’re driving is you said something super powerful. Nothing can stop you from doing your job and I would add like because you see your job and it’s true, super important for patients who need it and they need you.

So you were here for them and your team was working in the health care industry. It’s a huge responsibility and an insurance particularly. At that time and the country like Lebanon is not something that that it’s easy. The insurance, the health, the access to health care is not something for granted in Lebanon.

They pay a lot for their insurance or their private insurance because the, like the national insurance, the ministry of health, no need to tell you how they work. So they pay a lot. For their medical care, they have the right to get the right access to this. So since you opened this, I had this question in mind because usually insurance in Middle East plus globally, I can tell you here in the US, it’s the same and Europe is the same.

They don’t have this. Very positive, let’s say, image on truly helping people getting access but rather, and I’m in an industry, as I’m in biotech, biopharma, where it’s also like the image outside can be different from, leaders like you doing what you do on a daily basis to get people access to medications and healthcare.

So can you speak a little bit about this and what you’ve done? Because obviously as you shared your story, everything was driven to make sure that patients get their treatment and you lived with with really, not full justice or fairness towards who can get treated. You talked about the kids you help who were not covered by the government.

So what is your perspective now that you’re a leader in this industry, in the insurance industry and how you make sure that access is equitable for patients? Actually, this is a very sad, ugly truth that we live in. So if the access to healthcare are splitted between Lebanon and the UAE okay.

In Lebanon, the access to healthcare, it’s it’s sitan looks. It’s something that not everyone can afford. It’s luxury. Yeah. It’s luxury. It’s non-regulated. It’s you can insurance companies can just put limits and exclusions on any disease. You have a cardiac disease story.

They can just put some limits unless you fulfill some some obligations having all this stuff. This is in the private insurance in the public sector. You have, unfortunately, Nagy, these are the statistics like three years ago. You have only 28 percent of the Lebanese population, they have private insurance.

All the other, all the remaining people, they fall under the public sector, which is broke, which is, it doesn’t even exist. The infrastructure is not even there. So the government, the governmental hospitals are somewhere where you run from, you run away from them, you don’t trust them because the employees at governmental hospitals are not there.

Our governmental employees. I don’t want to go through these politics. But unfortunately, the corruption in Lebanon because of the corruption, we lost all trust in anything that is related to the public sector to the government, including the public scheme, the healthcare scheme, including the governmental hospitals, including all these, all the entire healthcare system.

So you have this 80 sorry, 78% of the population without any insurance. Okay. Having to back at the Ministry of Health. To get their health care to have to get their procedures done. And this is was also part of a project which I worked on in 2016. I’m gonna tell you about it later on. It was a beautiful project that it’s one of the success stories that we made.

It was when the Ministry of Health did some privatization on the health care management, and they outsourced with TPS with third party administrators, but it was only for a period of four years. And we did a lot. Unfortunately, then they don’t have the budget. They don’t want to do it again. So they went back to the to the old to the old public man.

So you have all the the people that are not insured with the private insurance are all left. Alone, left alone, you have somebody who has who has a heart disease. If they have a heart attack, they go to a hospital. They would not admit them unless they put a huge amount of money as a deposit.

They will refuse to treat them. So imagine the, this, the struggle, the amount of struggle that people have in Lebanon for this. Moving from Lebanon to UAE, UAE is much more how do we call it? Regularized, excuse my English, Najee, sometimes. It’s regulated, yeah. It’s regularized.

You have the medical insurance is mandatory by law. In the UAE, it is mandatory. No one is entitled to stay in UAE unless they have medical insurance. They will not even issue your visa, your residency visa, unless you have a medical insurance. So this is a major change that I saw here. And plus, in UAE, they don’t have the right to exclude diseases.

to put limitations to to, to all this, like the struggle that we have in Lebanon. However, due to the difference and the and the purchase power and the UAE insurance is extremely expensive. And I was going to ask you like people, so you have to have it, but you should be able to afford it.

Exactly. So you have to be extremely at a certain wealth to be able to afford good insurance. Yeah. However, there are some basic products done by the government, which are okay. At least you don’t die at the doors of hospitals, even though they take care of you, depending on your policy, which is a little bit normal, but at least here in the UAE, you know that you can be taken care of.

In case you are in and this was an extreme relaxed mindset that I had when I moved here and I was extremely happy that I live now in such country. Yeah. So it’s interesting because obviously healthcare systems are pretty broken all over the globe. Like I’ve been in Europe as now in the U S so there is what you’re saying is true.

There are, there is this limit of. At least people in urgent need are covered for their health care. But still, unfortunately, we see it in every single country. And in the U. S., I’m sure you’ve seen all those debates about people not being able to afford health care. Because of as you said it’s either so social economics, it can also be because of diversity, certain minority groups.

So it’s certainly something that we we need leaders like you to keep on working and making sure that healthcare is is a human right as it is, but unfortunately it’s not applied that way. Yeah, exactly. If you, if we go back to my very first question I wanted to talk about, which is leadership in different countries and being a woman in leadership in the Middle East.

Can you share with us a little bit your learnings along the way? Yeah. Actually, I’m lucky that I work at NASCO, to be honest, where they really value women at all positions. I cannot tell you it was an easy journey. Because being a woman in the Middle East and the Arab countries, you are always labeled as fragile, you are labeled as dependent, you are labeled as being emotional at not being able to to, to think objectively, et cetera, you are labeled.

Whereas, now actually, I can tell you, not because I’m a woman, the hardest decisions, That are made and decisions. I want to split between decision making and execution. I can only see in my surrounding. I’m sure there are lots of leaders, men who are extremely amazing. But from what I see around me, the decision making and the execution, when it’s a woman leading these two areas, it is certainly a successful result.

Because we want to prove that we can, when men don’t feel that they need to prove it. It’s already for granted. He’s a man, he can do it. Whereas and they fall in this trap, because they take their work for granted sometimes. They don’t. They are not. I don’t want to say decision makers, but you know the confrontation between men and men, the frictions that happen in the corporate world whenever it’s a woman versus man, it’s softer.

It reaches to a middle ground. So I see this a lot. And again, I’m proud that I’m at NASCO because this is this. This place gave me a lot of empowerment being a woman. However, it’s not an easy journey at all. Every single day in every single meeting, Naji. Of course, I’m not comfortable in my skin as my men colleagues.

Especially when I am the only woman in the room, especially when also I’m with a client. And when I’m with another executive, I need to make this huge first impression to be able to crack the preset mind. If I miss this first impression, I will, I might be labeled with the nonsense that I told you previously.

So it’s not an easy job. It is doable. Again, it is how much the woman is focused to prove it and she can do it and she can prove it. But she has to stay focused really Najee. We women, we cannot take our jobs for granted. Unfortunately, like you guys, we need to fight harder. But again, fighting harder is also getting where we want and giving results more than anyone else.

And I certainly agree when you say about decision and execution and that you do it, we see it all over the world. Women leading get to better outcomes. And there is something I’ve also learned by moving to different countries. It’s what you’re saying can also apply to. To to minority groups, if you’re the only different person in a situation, it immediately becomes you want to prove that you can, right?

I love how you framed it because it’s You try harder. You try harder. You try harder. Yeah. Yeah. Which, which sometimes is, it feels unfortunate and unfair, right? Totally. Like why would we get all those assumptions as you said, why do women have to prove, over prove themselves to to get what, where they want, but you’re bringing the other side of it, which is actually, you will prove that you can and you’re doing it.

I want to move now to a section where I’m going to give you a word and I would love your first reaction to it. So the first word is leadership, heart and mind. Oh, tell me more. Two words. So this is something that I read recently. I had some leadership course with a great professor and he, he used to describe Leadership is winning the heart and mind of your team.

So anyone can be a manager, Najee. Anyone can calculate your KPIs. Anyone can make the job done, make the task done. Anyone can monitor your presence at the office. But not anyone can mobilize you to be a better person to look at the same vision to have a strategic mind. Mindset unless it’s a real leader.

So if you don’t win their heart and mind. With your empathy, with your humility, with your leading by example, with all this stuff, in my opinion you are, you will never be a leader. You are, you were never, and you will never be a leader. It’s not about having things done. Everyone can have things done.

It’s about it’s about looking at your team, talking to your team as if you’re talking to yourself, feeling for them as if you’re feeling for yourself.

What about insurance? Security.

So can you share a little bit more, especially how you, because security is very interesting and I’d love to get your thoughts about the future of insurances in the next decade. So imagine Najee, you are now you are now sitting in your room and your child is playing with the ball at the garden and then he falls.

Or she falls and they break their leg. Okay? You don’t you don’t know what to do, okay? You have the medical part, which, where should I go? Which doctor, which facility plus will I be able to afford if a surgery is needed? What if they need this? What if they need this? Having an insurance, I’m not, I’m only talking about medical, but I also manage all the other lines, but this is maybe the most like personalized example.

So imagine all of these, whenever you have a medical insurance, you don’t think of all of these, Najee, you just put your kid in the car, go to the hospital, which you have access luckily with your insurance card. You don’t have to worry about all the logistics. Somebody else is paying the bill. Somebody else is checking the eligibility.

Somebody else is doing the medical due diligence etc. You only, you are only taking care of your kids. Emotions and the trauma that they had, and you don’t have to worry about anything at all. This it was a lot. It was a lot because look at the countries where they don’t have this luxury. Somebody falls sick, they might think 100 times before they take them to a doctor because they cannot afford, they might take them to low level doctors or hospitals or whatever, because they cannot afford an average.

Medical facility. It’s not within their insurance cover, or they don’t have access to it for some reason. So they have ipso facto, they have a low level of health care. And this will this might mark all their entire life know how many people die because of lack of health care access.

Whether not being accepted at the emergency hospital, whether being treated by Medjugorj medical facilities or doctors, because this is the only way they can afford medical medical health care. Being late at their treatment, for example, in Lebanon now, Naji, I’m sure that cancer drugs are not imported anymore to Lebanon.

There is a shortage in cancer drugs. You know how many people in Lebanon are dying because they are not having their chemotherapy? I have one relative, two relatives actually, who are suffering. One of them died because there was no treatment. She was out of chemotherapy for more than six months. There’s no, because she’s not insured under a private insurance.

She has she has to go to the public insurance where they tell her, sorry, the government is broke. We’re not getting, we’re not getting any aid from anywhere. So imagine, so whenever you are insured, all this stuff you don’t have to worry about. And this is vital. This is not a luxury. This is vital.

So But would Jana, would the affordability of insurance become something where it is vital and accessible? Do you think we will be in a future where people can afford it? Honestly, they cannot all afford the same level of health care. We are not in like socialist regimes here in the Middle East or in the Arab world.

And which, in my opinion, it’s not something really bad. Because to have a good medical insurance, you have to be successful in your life. Which also, it might be tough a little bit, Najeeb, but people who invest on them, on themselves. at school, at university, at work, work hard, it will pay off. They will be able to afford whatever they want.

I’m not saying that everyone had the chance for this, but whenever you had the chance and you work on yourself, you can afford. Unfortunately for the people who didn’t even have the chance, the people like living in a war zone or in a very poor area, They will not have the chance to get proper education and then get high positions in, in, in in their work life and then get good insurance.

But the minimum, the bare minimum can be accessible for people as long as governments are regulated and not corrupted. Na. Yeah, and you’re bringing like that. That’s a whole different story. We can talk about trying to bringing the two visions of the word, right? And what a place like more in the U.

S. is actually very similar to this where you work, you succeed, you get what you want. It’s a capitalistic view of things. So those who can’t afford it would be considered the lazy ones versus those who work hard. And then there’s another view of work, which is more some parts of Europe where actually it’s not lazy, it’s just bad luck and the society has to take care of you as a human.

It is a big debate. But it’s. It’s one, I think we can go into in another podcast, but the third word I want to give you is Antoinette, yeah Antoinette everything that is beautiful in life. at school. Najee, you cannot know how much I owe this establishment.

You don’t know how much they, I have done great friends such as yourself and all the other friends that I have. The personality that we had, you remember Najee, one time we did a revolution because there was one student who didn’t pay his tuition. Oh, I don’t remember. You remember very well. So all these movements that we did at school, all the culture that we have.

I still remember, if you remember The teacher, the talks that we had about World War Two, about all the political regimes with Mr. Malham Nassar, teaching us what is Marx, although he was an Arabic teacher. We used to debate about communism, about Marxism, about socialism, about all this stuff.

I, I am so grateful to this period of time and which I I envy the students there now. I hope it has the same culture now. I don’t know, honestly, I’m too far from it now. I hope it still has the same culture. Yeah. So for everyone, Antonia is obviously our school where we went to the first 15 years of our lives.

Yeah. Yeah. And certainly, you’re bringing something that is so true that I feel I try at least to replicate along the way is having those healthy debates, right? You can have different views and we were a mix of different cultures, religions, backgrounds, but you can still open up and debate them respectfully while understanding others view.

If you remember Najee, we were few, like few schools had this diversity of religion and cultures. So we were really lucky because we had these debates. As I see some other, like my friends who used to be in a more closed school communities. They didn’t know there’s the other person, the other side of the religions of the cultures.

They didn’t know until they were, they, they were at work and their work life. We were lucky that we had this experience when we were too young. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. And again, like that’s a full topic, but it certainly helped you take out what unfortunately these days a lot of leaders are trying to do is putting fear in our heads about the other.

And if you really don’t know the other, the fear bubble up. But when you sit with them, play with them, you realize that as human beings, we’re all similar. You think they are all your enemies until you, you see their point of views. Yeah. Yeah. The last one is spread love and organizations is sorry, spread love and organizations.

A must, the word that I would think of is it’s a must. The corporate world is such an evil world Naji, unfortunately you have, I am sure that you know that very well. It’s the selflessness. that it’s not there anymore. It’s the selfishness. So everyone wants to reach their goals by crashing the others, by labeling the others, by ruining the reputations of others, by whatever.

So this teamwork, this spirit, the love, the culture, I’m not sure it’s there. enough anymore, unfortunately. But you are here, we are here, and there’s more than 150 leaders I interviewed who certainly are spreading it and trying hard to do it. Any final word of wisdom, Diana, for leaders around the world?

It’s not for the leaders. Actually, I’ll start with the people who haven’t discovered yet that they are leaders. So I would say this if my team is listening to me now or my old team in Lebanon is listening to me now. You all guys can be leaders. It’s just believe in yourself and be yourself because this is the most important bit.

Most important advantage that you have. It’s only be yourself and you can make it. This is for my team now and for the leaders across the world. This is a song like a cliche, which is nothing lasts forever. You will not be sitting in the same chair. You will not be sitting in the same position.

People will remember you for the good impressions that you made. And this is this comes with leadership. It’s not an easy statement, Naji, because we all struggle with stuff, with mental issues. The conflicts, the trauma that we have from our childhood. But, and we, unconsciously, we spread them on our team.

We might be tough, we might be non empathic, we might be, all this stuff. Guys Again, nothing lasts forever. Just keep this good impression while you’re here on Earth so that people will remember you. Now, my first boss, actually, this is a side story, he is my mentor. He used to be my mentor.

It’s been a long time I haven’t spoken to him. So Also, he marked a lot my leadership style because he used to be a great leader. So what I try to do also now is to have the same print on the team that I need. I wish that they will remember me the way I remember my first boss. I’m sure they will.

And what an amazing way to finish this conversation. Jenna, thank you so much for being with me today and sharing all those stories. Thank you so much, Nadia. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to Spread Love in Organizations podcast. Subscribe at spreadloveio. com or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Together, let’s inspire change and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time. Thank you.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host, joined today by Alison Fragale, a research psychologist, award-winning professor, international keynote speaker, and author, on a mission to help others — especially women — work and live better by understanding and applying the science of people. Alison excels in translating her deep academic expertise is in status, power, negotiation, and influence into actionable advice. Alison is currently Professor at Kenan-Flagler Business School at the University of North Carolina and her research appeared in several news outlets such as Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, The Boston Globe, to name a few… Alison, I am so excited to have you with me today and look forward to our chat!

Alison Fragale: So excited. Thanks for having me.

Naji Gehchan: I’m really eager to go into discussing your impactful academic work and also new book Likeable Badass, but first I would love to hear more about your personal story, what brought you to researching people!

Alison Fragale: 100%. I always say this was not my childhood dream. I don’t know if I had a childhood dream, but it was not this. So here’s my story. I am growing. I’m growing up. My dad was very raised, very poor and managed to pay for his way to go to college. He was a first generation college student and he was very successful in starting a small business where I grew up, but he had really raised me up.

You need to do practical things, Allison, practical things. And so when I was. Uh, starting out, I was thinking about a career in business because my dad said that’s a practical thing to do. And so I went to school and I was a math and economics major in college because that was the closest thing I could come to, to studying and pursuing a career in business.

And I had always had an interest in human behavior and psychology. There was a class offered in my high school. Every class that I could fit into my schedule in college I took, but at the time I had these words that I had to be. focus on a practical career and I did not have any guidance at the time as to how an interest in human behavior could be turned into my father’s wish for a practical career that could pay bills.

So I didn’t do anything. I graduate and I take a job at McKinsey as a management consultant. I wasn’t exactly sure what I wanted to do in business and everyone said this was a good job and if you could get it this would be amazing because you would see so many aspects of business and you would, if you didn’t want to be a consultant, you would at least learn a lot about where you wanted your business.

career to be. And I was not at McKinsey very long before I realized this was not for me. And I looked at the lives of my clients and I couldn’t find anything that I found inspiring that I wanted to do. And I describe it as my quarter life crisis. I thought, uh oh, I’ve picked this career. I was all set up to go to pursue my MBA and I wasn’t liking any of it.

And I hadn’t at that point. Um, ever really explore, like, what did I really like? What did I want to do? I just was following along, trying to get to the next level of success with what people told me to do. And so I always say, when I talk to younger students, or I talk to people now, and I say, the best job in the world is a job that you love.

And the second best job is a job that you hate. Because when you’re unhappy, is when you start to really explore what do you want out of life, out of work, and you get a lot better answers. So one night I walked, I lived in Chicago, I walked out of my apartment across the street to Barnes and Noble and I went to the psychology section because I knew I liked human behavior and I bought a book called Careers in Psychology and I took it back and as I’m flipping through it, I read Organizational Psychology, which I did not know existed in what I had been exposed to.

I kept thinking I could be a therapist or I could teach psychology, you know, in high school, organizational psychology. And there, all of a sudden I had this Eureka moment. I have this somewhat interest in business, although I’m not really sure I want any of these jobs that I’m seeing, a real deep interest in human behavior.

I was also, that interest in human behavior was very much sparked by being at McKinsey, which is an odd job from an interpersonal perspective, where you’re constantly a newcomer and an outsider in a world where your clients really don’t like you. I mean, they make movies about the consultants, right? No one wants to work with the consultants.

And so I had to think a lot about how do you negotiate with people? How do you influence them? How do you motivate them? So I was having all this real on the job. organizational psychology experience. And as soon as I saw organizational psychology, I thought, that sounds like a great blend of the things I know and the things I don’t know.

And I applied to go get my PhD in organizational psychology and apply. I was, you know, this is 1997. So yes, you can search things on the internet, but not quite as efficiently as you can now. So I had to figure it all out and apply. And I, and I went and got my PhD and then ended up. Uh, as a, as a professor, as an organizational psychologist, and it, I think I picked really well the second time.

I am very much inspired and love what I buy and what, love what I do, and I wouldn’t have found it, I don’t think, if I hadn’t picked, I don’t want to say poorly, if I hadn’t been in a situation that really didn’t fit me and, and prompted me to think about what, what do I really love and gone and got that book.

I wish I had saved it. I feel like it’d be like a great artifact, but it’s long gone in my move. So that’s how I ended up here. Well, thank you so much. It’s, uh, it’s really inspiring and I love how you’re sharing it. I had early in my career and what I discussed now with, uh, as you said with, you know, when I mentor, uh, people, there is sometimes this question, like, I don’t know what I love.

Like, I don’t know what I want to do. And I had this advice very early on. Well, someone who told me, you know what, write what you actually hate doing. And it helped me so much because I, like, it gives you some sort of framing of knowing what you don’t really want to do, and then it opens different perspective on what you like.

Naji Gehchan: So I really relate to what you said. I love that you framed it that way. Yeah. That was great advice. I’ve never heard that said that way. That’s totally true. Yeah. So now, as we’re thinking about organizational psychology, like, how would you frame it overall? And then I will go more into the four topics of your research that you’re passionate about.

But help me understand, like, we all know organizations have some psychology, have some dynamics, sometimes good, sometimes bad. How do you think about that? Yeah, so psychology, broadly defined, of any different kind, is going to be the study of human beings. What do we know about people? How are they similar?

Alison Fragale: How are they predictable? The organizational psychology, specifically, is going to be, what do we know about human beings that’s going to be advantageous to us? to work better, to work more efficiently, to work more effectively. So I always joke when I teach my MBA students, when an MBA students, they’re very focused on the quant classes, uh, my accounting, my finance, the things with right answers.

I need to get good grades in these things. And I would always joke with them, you right now in organizational psychology, organizational behavior, You’re not worried about this because you’re not, you’re not working right now, but I promise you, a decade from now, 20 years from now, everything about work that keeps you up at night is going to be a people problem.

No one lays awake at night worrying about their Excel spreadsheet. Everyone lays awake worrying about people who are not giving them the respect they’re due, who are not giving them the answers, who are, Creating obstacles in their way, you know, not taking the meeting, not respecting the boundaries, whatever it is, they’re all people problems.

And so that’s what organizational psychology is really about is to think about if you understand all the people that you have to interact with and want to interact with, if you understand on average how they’re likely to think, feel, and act, because they’re human beings and human beings are kind of predictable.

So if you understand that science. That gives you a tremendous advantage to think about, okay, well, you know, similarity attraction. We like people who are like us. That’s a well known psychological truth. Well, if I know that I can start to bring that into that knowledge into the way that I show up. Okay.

We have things in, you know, in common, neither of us really like to fly, but we fly all the time. That’s a point of connection. All of a sudden. Yeah. Um, we feel like we have some kinship. So that’s how we can start to use psychology and the, and the truths and similarities of people to how we can authentically show up in ways that are going to get us the results that we want.

And that’s what I try to help people do is I try to help people think about their audience. Like, what is this person doing and what do you want them to be doing? And then how are you going to be able to think about all the variables in your control to get the outcome you want from that? other person.

So that’s why I find psychology so fascinating because it has rules, but then there’s always individual circumstances to think about how do you use that science to work that, get that particular person to move in the way you want them to move. I, I, I obviously love it. And, um, I so believe in it. And as you are talking about, you know, like the technical aspect, the math aspect with your MBA student, we obviously see it like an organization, as you know, like I’m in a biotech word, you have like the high experts who are very scientific driven, et cetera.

So as you think through this, because it’s so, it’s so true, what you said, it all come down to people at the end, the organization of psychology and how things are dealt with. And this is what keeps me up. at night, as you said, way more than the scientific narrative, if you want, or the unmet medical need, which is way clearer.

But how would you help leaders see the importance of this, especially if they come from a background of purely technical, like MD, like me, PhD, who usually tend to see this as, you Secondary. Yeah, I think people tend to see it as secondary only until they’ve struggled. So that’s when I would have, when I would have my full time students, they were young enough that they hadn’t really struggled too much.

They hadn’t been managing people. They were in school full time. When you have somebody who’s engaged in working, so you take a physician, for example, if they’re a clinician, right? And let’s say they’re patient facing and say, try to get your patients to do. what you want them to do, what you know is in their best interest, right?

Is the spreadsheet or the data or the study or the paper the thing that’s going to move them? Maybe it should be the thing that moves them, but maybe it’s not, right? Maybe it’s the fact, right, that they’re, that they’re a big, you know, Chicago Bears fan and their doctor can talk Chicago Bears. Okay, now I’ll listen to your recommendations.

So thinking about, um, When people are in the, in the engaged in work and trying to collaborate with people every single day people will have some great successes and every single day people will have great struggles. And so what I help people do is I say, okay, tell me something where it’s hard for you to move people.

No one, everyone can think of an example. And then what I try to do is help give them strategies for how could you use human behavior in addition to. All the other tools that you have, right? So we are not going to, um, I mean, so being an expert is a psychological tool because people trust experts. People listen to experts.

So having expertise, having data, having science doesn’t run against psychology. It’s part of psychology. Why would this person listen to me? Because I come from, uh, I have data I come from, I’m educated, I come from a basis of knowledge, but there are all the other factors as well. And I help people point out what they are.

So I’ll use similarity as an example and then say, okay, well let’s think about how we could use this, or let’s think about how you could, where you could, um, where you’ve seen this type of thing work. And that normally is what I really like about it, is it, everyone is always a psychologist all day long.

So as long as they’re engaged in work, you can pretty quickly point out a problem, or They can agree it’s a problem. And then you can think about, okay, what tools do we have that we can add in to what you’re already doing that would get you more likely to get you the results you wanted. So I listen to you.

It’s a great segue to where it’s, uh, you mentioned it like status, expertise, power, influence, and this is. A big part of your research. So as you, um, as we talk about these four words, status, power, negotiation, influence, those you, uh, have really deeply researched. Can you share a little bit more with us your research on those topics, what comes out and how to think about them?

Yeah. So status and power. Um, status, I’ll talk about what they are first, I’ll spend, I’ll talk about those two first because that’s, uh, I speak about all of these things, but I do a lot of research in the area of status and power. So status is respect. It’s how much we are respected and valued by other people.

That is, if you look at status in the dictionary, that is one definition you’ll see. There are other definitions of how we use the term status, but when psychologists talk about status, we’re talking about that specific definition, which is how much does one person respect and regard another person. So it’s not your standing or your title, but it’s, it’s respect and value.

Power is. Do you control resources that other people care about? So I’m a parent of a teenager. If I have the keys to the car, the keys to the car are a resource that the teenager cares about. That gives me some power. If in an organization I have the formal authority to control the budget, to say yes or no, to hire and fire, those are all valued resources.

They give me power. Those are related but distinct. A lot of times the people who are the, are very highly respected, um, have the resources and they’re the people who get put in the positions to be able to control everything. So you can see them go hand in hand, but they are very distinct. And one of the things I help people understand is how to manage them separately because there’s a misconception that people have that is If I’m powerful enough, everyone will respect me and sometimes that can happen.

We can, we see someone who’s in power, we think we must have done something good to get there and we respect them, but a lot of times that is not what occurs. What’s more likely to occur is the opposite, which is if people respect me, they’re more willing to give me power. So when you think about situations where you have had the discretion to give someone power.

Sometimes we give someone power by electing to work under them. And we allow them to, we say, I’m going to give you power over me by being your subordinate. I’m going to give you power. I’m going to, I’m going to advocate that you should be promoted. I’m going to advocate that you should be paid more. We can give people power.

I’m going to vote for you in an, in a election, or if you’re applying for something. These are ways in which we can say, I’m participating in you getting more power in this world. Well, we’re only going to do that. If we have a choice for people that we respect, you would never put more control in the hands of somebody that you didn’t think would use it well.

And so we. One of the mistakes that people make is not recognizing how foundational earning respect is to being able to get all these other tangible things that we want. And for some people, and this is, I do a lot of work, I don’t exclusively speak to women or do work for women, but women, working for women is an audience that I care very deeply about, because what we know is that some, um, Characteristics are awarded less status than others.

So generally speaking, woman is awarded less status than man. And so what that means is that some people don’t automatically get as much status as others, and that makes it harder than for some people to get power. So a lot of the challenges we see with women being able to be represented at top levels of an organization, um, being able to be paid at.

you know, for their worth at the same levels as men, et cetera, can have their roots in status issues, which is if we don’t respect two people equally, we won’t reward them equally. And when we understand that, that’s painful, but it’s also gives us a path forward of thinking about, okay, well, as psychologists, we actually, back to this idea of thinking about your audience, we know a lot about how people decide whether or not they respect another person.

It’s not an arbitrary decision. We pay attention to certain things. Particularly how competent and capable they are, and how caring they are, how other oriented they are. And when we see somebody that we think, um, really knows what they’re doing, and really cares about people other than themselves, that’s the winning recipe to be respected.

If you think about, like, your Rolodex of who do I respect? Chances are, every, every single year, you’re like, yep. I think they’re very capable and very caring. Yep. Yep. Check. Check. Um, so that’s status and power. That’s the distinction. And that’s a lot of the work that I do is looking at really how to manage status and how to manage status as a tool for one, living a happy, fulfilling life.

Status and power are both fundamental human needs. I mean, we all human beings seek them and they are critical to our life satisfaction and our physical and mental health. And so I always tell people that. Lacking respect and lacking control are psychologically and physically just as damaging as living a life without friends.

But the, but the message that I really try to convey to people is Um, focusing on status as getting your audience to respect and value you is one of the most important things we can do when we’re interacting with other people, because once we do that, the other things that we really value, like being in control, and then negotiation and influence.

Negotiation is a tool for being influential. If you don’t respect people, it really doesn’t matter how many good negotiation tools and strategies I teach people. They’re not going to be successful sitting in front of their audience. So it ends up being the foundation for anything we want in our relationships.

And you can be respected and still be a poor negotiator, but it’s hard to be a great negotiator if you’re not very well respected. So this is, this is great. And let’s start first with the status and power, you know, like let’s talk. a little bit more. So on the status part, you talked about being respected and valued by others.

And it touches a lot as leaders, behaviors, how you show up, you talked about caring and delivering. But you also talked about, for example, women having this Already like a status that might be perceived as lower and I would say like minority group members not being born in a specific place, the genetic lottery.

We all live, uh, and we named them, right? Like several other pieces of, uh, of diversity that we can talk about. So this piece actually, this is where I would love to hear your thoughts about it because that piece is somehow we can’t control it. It’s who we are, and it’s more I’m feeling like the biases that can come with status that makes your status maybe lower or higher, depending on the society you’re in.

And then there is a piece where your behaviors are making your status to be respected by others, et cetera, because you care and you deliver. So help me understand these two and what part you should influence, not influence as a leader. Right. So 100 percent agree with all. First is many variables influence status.

It’s not just gender. Uh, so there are in status, we think of ascribed characteristics that influence status. So those are things we generally do not control. They have no basis for, for capability or anything, but, and they’re often things that are set. at birth, but they are outside of our control and unrelated to our actual skills and abilities.

So you would have gender, you could have race, you could have other kinds of physical characteristics, height, weight, ethnicity, religion, you name it, you can have a status, can be affected by it. Um, then you have achieved characteristics. So if I have Um, a Ph. D., which I have a Ph. D., so you might say, oh, okay, well, you have a Ph.

D., so I might assume that, although other things being equal, you’re more competent and capable than somebody in your field who doesn’t. Okay, that could be something where I have control over it to some degree, and people will draw conclusions about it as well. And then we have Um, all of the, the behaviors in which, uh, we can exhibit that we show up moment to moment that can affect how we perceive how capable and caring somebody is.

So, and those are things we can exert a high degree of control over. So, some people are potentially. I would call them at risk. So you come from a medical world, right? And I, as you, I’m not that kind of doctor, but some people can be born with greater propensity for some health, bad health outcome than other people, right?

That’s like an ascribed characteristic. It’s not your fault. You didn’t cause it. But guess what? If you live the same life as your neighbor, Your life statistically may not be as good because you have a risk for a health outcome that your neighbor just doesn’t have. And so therefore, what are the most controllable things you have left to make sure that you do get the life, the longevity, and the quality of life that you deserve?

You may have to change your diet, right? You may have to change your sleep pattern or your exercise or whatever it is, and your neighbor doesn’t? It’s unfair, but let’s talk about what variables you can control. And so in status, we understand the unfair piece, the piece that you inherited. And then there’s the pieces you can control.

And a lot of that is about how do we show up and recognizing that we have this at risk status, at risk situation allows us to be more proactive. And I always, you know, a lot of times what happens with, with people in status is people don’t worry about theirs until they find out they have a status problem.

You show up in an organization, you start doing your work, you’re like, I’m smart, I’m caring, I’m capable, like what’s, what’s to worry about? I’m not really thinking about my gender or my race or anything, like I just doing my work. Until someone undervalues you and then you realize they are not honoring your status and now you’re mad and you don’t like it and you want to fix it.

But now the, the per, the, the person has already decided that you’re not a person worthy of respect. Can you change their mind? 100%. You have changed your mind about people, I’m sure, in the past. I have too. But you know what? It takes a lot longer because once you’ve decided you don’t value that person, they have to consistently kind of prove you wrong enough times until you finally are going to change your mind.

It’s a lot easier to shape it at the beginning. So I always say like if you think you have a risk for having let’s say heart disease, no doctor would probably say just you know what wait and see if the heart disease shows up and if it shows up come back and then we’ll fix it. That’s often when people call me about status.

So what I like to think about is how can you be proactive and know that everybody is at risk at times. Based on some characteristic of being undervalued. The proactive things to do would be to control how you show up in interactions. And the simple advice I give people is in every interaction, ask yourself, like, what can I do in this moment to show up as.

Capable, I’ll often use the term assertive for that. It’s not just about being assertive, but to say I’m a person who has the skills and, and persistence to get stuff done. If you show up that way, that’s really beneficial for your status. And if you show up and say what’s the thing that I could do that shows that I’m very caring and oriented toward other people, that’s really beneficial as well.

A simple example would be offering advice where advice is welcome. advice allows you to show up as an expert. Hey, I know something. And if I’m doing it in service to you, then I can show up as caring. Um, talking about, uh, My, um, capabilities, right? And my, and my, um, qualifications. This is something I always used to feel really uncomfortable with when I stood in front of students.

I stood in front of audiences as I say, I don’t want to really give my resume. I just want to kind of show up and just talk to you. But people don’t know who I am. If I’m not saying to them, hey, um, Here’s my qualifications. Here’s the different things I’ve done. Then they would have no way of knowing and they’re drawing whatever conclusions they’re drawing based on my gender and everything else they can see about me.

Um, but I also want to talk about, you know, Hey, um, I’m, I’m caring as well. So I, even from an introduction on stage, I could talk about both my skills and accomplishments, but also things that create similarity with my audience and talk about my, the personal side of me so that they can see me as a person they’re connected to.

I may think of as. As friendly and other oriented, I tell jokes sometimes. That’s kind of my natural style, but jokes are actually really, um, affiliative behaviors. So you can start to think about how do I show up in interactions where I can bring both the capability and the caring and it’s subtle behaviors and things like that, that we do get a lot of control of.

And for people who are at risk of lacking status, I always say, The quicker you do that in a relationship before anyone has a moment to think about you, you want them to start thinking about you in this most positive way. And you can often do that in 30 seconds, five minutes in an, you know, in an interaction to, to get that relationship often in a way that advantages you.

These are such amazing advices. So I’m going to keep on getting your advice on another topic, negotiation. Okay. Can you share with us like the one advice. As, as you go into a negotiation, is there one advice or one behavior we should be doing to try and get to where we want to go in a negotiation? So I’m, I’m going to give you a couple, okay, move first, move first, okay, the, the, the first mover, the person who puts the offer or the proposal out there first is going to do better.

So a lot of times we want to sit around and see what the other person has to say generally does not help us out. So when you go into negotiate, go with an idea of what you want. And put it out there, okay? Even if it anchors the others? That’s exactly what you want it to do. You want it to anchor them in a way that’s advantageous for you.

The alternative is they go first, you get anchored in a way that’s advantageous to them. So, now, Again, when we, if we, if I was going to do a whole course on this, we can find exceptions to everything, but in general, the research shows, and this is one of the things that contradicts people’s assumptions a lot, they think the person that speaks first loses.

I should hear what they have to say. And you can, but what’s likely to happen, particularly if you’re not extremely well prepared as to what a good outcome is, is that you’ll start to be anchored to what they’re saying because you’ll think that’s what they want. If I move too far away from it, they won’t say yes.

I also want that person to like me and you’ll start to slowly creep, you won’t creep all the way to where they’re going, but you will start to creep in your own head to be a little bit more concessionary and that’s okay. It just doesn’t end you with an outcome that’s as good for your purpose. your side.

So when we go first, um, we can get all those same effects working in their brain instead of our brain. Now, if you’re nervous about going first, and I’d say even if you’re not, a corollary to go first is go first, with multiple solutions. So three is a magic number. Hoodings, like, here’s three different ways I think we could solve this problem.

I could see it doing A, we could do B, we could do C. And A, B, and C, what they have in common is they’re all solutions that you would find acceptable. But they differ in, um, there are various ways that you solve the problem. Of that strategy, It still allows you to go first, but it also is very good at building the relationship because we like people who give us choices, and when people give us choices, we see them as more reasonable, more interested in solving the problem, and particularly, you know, for, we know of a lot of science, women is one, is one category of people who, when we are too assertive about what we want, we get backlash in negotiations.

So a three strategy, a three solution, proposal is a really good way to do it because it’s saying, I’m still going first, but I’m, but by the fact that I’m giving you choice, I am managing how you think about how aggressive I’m being in a way that is building trust in me. That’s good for, good for me, but good for both.

So I’m going to venture now in a, maybe a tricky space, but since you’re passionate about psychology people, you said we are predictable as humans and like all the science of people and the current word, you know, where we’re going today, like, We’re seeing it all over the place. Wars, unfortunately, in all the parts of the world, extremism, etc.

Can you make sense out of all the ongoing craziness from your psychology of people, and how do you think about this? Yeah, I can make sense of it, um, I can understand it, and I think a little bit like, I’ll use the medical analogy again, um, that you joke, like you joke, like when depending, when you have a medical ailment, the salute, recommended solution depends on the specialty of the provider you go for, right?

You go to the surgeon and the surgeon’s like, yes, this is a surgical fix, and you go to, you’re the internist, and they’re like, okay, here’s the medical fix, um, so as I’m going to tell you, it’s status and power, they’re fundamental human needs. Okay, those are when those things are taken away from people, people will do anything to get them back when people feel like they are not respected.

They don’t behave well. When people feel like they don’t have any control, they don’t behave well, and they are desperate to get those things back. So if you think about things anywhere from world conflicts to, to like political debates at the holiday table, whatever it is, those are fights for status and power.

Um, now you layer in, um, a world in which now there is no such thing as a private conversation. Why I think why it feels like things are getting worse is that When we have an audience watching us, or a perceived audience watching us, all of the, like, lacking status, lacking power, now feel worse because everyone knows about it.

Now we feel ashamed. We feel like we can’t change our mind. It’s what people were saying, like, why are these negotiations now so intractable? Because negotiations involve people starting with position A and position B, and then figuring out how to find position C that works for everybody. But if you’ve gone on record to 10 people, a million people, a billion people, and said, I am going to go get position A, then you end up with position C.

You worry that the world is going to think that you lost, when in fact that’s not at all what happened. And so when we’ve created Uh, a world in which there’s no such thing as a private conversation. We’ve made it very hard for people to change their minds. We’ve made it very hard for people to pursue interest based bargaining, which is, okay, if you want A and I want B, C actually gets you everything that A gets you, it gets you everything that B gets you.

It’s a good solution. It’s just a different one than we both came in with. That’s actually what smart negotiators do. But if the world doesn’t understand that, then I’m now very concerned about how I’m going to be perceived. What am I concerned about? My status. Are people going to respect me less based on this?

So I am like the surgeon who thinks everything can be operated on, okay? Status and power can explain all of it. Adding in the fact that all of it is now done in front of essentially a worldwide audience is, is making these things feel fundamentally different than I think they felt to us at a point like earlier in our history or when we were kind of growing up.

That’s an incredible perspective. I’m going to give you now a word. And I would love for a reaction, like what first comes to mind. The first one is leadership. Difficult.

I think being a leader is really hard. I think it’s one of the reasons why it’s, you know, a, um, a topic that people can endlessly want to read about, learn about, be better, um, because it requires us to set vision. Um, I think that’s probably the easier part. And then mobilize people to follow that vision.

And that’s the psychological part. And that’s trying to reach a lot of different people, um, who want a lot of different things and get them all to act in concert on a, on a, on a vision. It is really, really hard. Um, and so I think, uh, it’s one of the things that gets me like excited about doing the kinds of work that I do is to know that to lead is challenging, predictable psychological reasons.

So I have a question on this. How do you reconsider leadership with status, uh, and power? Is it, are they totally related? Is there different types of status and power depending on your leadership position? Like, how do you think about this? Yeah. So, again, the, the academic in me thinks of a leader as somebody doing these two things, setting vision and getting people to follow them.

Not everybody then, and then there’s power is do I control resources? So again, if I go back to, if I have the car keys and my teenage son wants the car, I have power, but I’m not a leader, right? There’s no vision. There’s no followership. Right. Um, and you could say, and, and, and then status being respected.

Alison Fragale: Now, a lot of people who are well respected, people want to follow them. But then they also have to have the second component, which is, am I setting the vision and a direction for people to go? So that’s where you could find a Venn diagram, if you will. There’s certainly an overlap in the center where a successful leader is going to set vision and get people to follow them.

They’ll control the resources and they’ll be highly regarded and respected, and that’ll be part of mobilizing people to follow. So you have the space in the center, but you can always find people who are just one or two out of three, depending on what’s What’s going on? I would, I would say, could you have a leader that had you, you can, it’s hard to have an effective leader that has no status.

Cause I think you’d have a hard time mobilizing people to follow if nobody respects you and the vision. Um, but certainly you can have people in power who don’t have status. And then I would say, it’s not really clear. They’re actually leading anything. So you can get, I think you can get all of them. I think I, I can, I can draw the Venn diagram and put a person in each of those, each of those spaces.

The second one is influence. Um, yeah. So, I mean, I think about what comes to mind. Um, I think it’s what we’re what we’re doing all day long is getting other people to do what we want. And all of these things are tools. So status, power and negotiation are just different tools for influence. If you think about it, right, negotiation, if I’m going to move first, or I’m going to present three solutions, those are just specific techniques to get somebody to do what you want them to do, right?

I control the resources, so you’re a little bit afraid of me, and you need to do what I say, so that I get the resources, and I get rewarded. That’s a tool for influence. It’s why people want Uh, care about power. And same with status. If you really respect and value me, you’re going to more likely do what I say.

One because you trust it’s right, and two because you care what I think and what I think about you. And so all three of those come together and um, influence kind of sits at the top of the pyramid of our, our, our human goal when we’re interacting with other people. The third one is Likeable Badass. The title of the greatest forthcoming book on September 3rd, um, Likeable Badass.

Alison Fragale: So that’s my book, uh, uh, how women get the success they deserve. Um, it, uh, is really my catchy term for that stuff we just talked about with status, which is how do you get status? You get people to think. That you care about people other than yourself. That’s the, that’s my, I use likable for that. And then this idea of you’re capable, you get things done, I put something in your hands, you’re going to succeed.

That’s, badass is my term for that. I always joke that if I called it, you know, capable and caring, no one would buy the book. But, It, uh, it, it is, it has a specific meaning and I, I break it down in the book. I say that’s the way to remember it, but it’s really rooted in psychology of person perception is these are the two dimensions that people are paying attention to when they decide are you a person that they respect.

And the good part about this is that although it feels unfair. That some people have to be more strategic about getting the respect they deserve than others. This is what everyone wants to be. When I say likable badass, no one ever says, nah, not interested. Everyone’s like, yes, that’s exactly what I’m going for.

That’s how I want to show up. Absolutely. I, that’s how I want people to think about me. So there is an authenticity that can exist with this strategy, which is getting. Getting status is being, is showing up the way you really want to show up anyway and being perceived the way you want to be perceived. So that’s how I got the title.

Alison Fragale: And what I do in the book is break down the science of where does status come from, from these two dimensions, and then most importantly, how can people start to use the variables in their control to influence how people see them on these two dimensions? The last one is spread love and organizations.

amazing mission and goal. So I, when you, when we got introduced and you were telling me about spread law, I like, I was like a hundred percent, um, signed me up of thinking about how to be, and again, just like likable badass, right? I, have you ever found someone where you said spread love and someone said, no, not interested?

It is a universal, um, goal of things, things that we’re striving for, of thinking about, um, how to have, like, psychologists often talk about task significance, which is a much less, like, fun way to talk about it, of, does the, do the things I do matter, right? Do I, um, make a positive impact on other people’s lives?

And we see in psychology that the, when people have task significance and they think the things they do matter, it is one of the. biggest intrinsic motivators that human beings have. And when people feel like their significance is threatened, it does not matter what other perks, how much money you pay people, whether you have a foosball like table in the lobby, how many free drinks and snacks there are.

When people feel like the things they’re doing don’t have significance and don’t matter, it’s a, it’s a huge deterrent. It’s normally, it’s normally when people exit. So I think spread love is the, like one of the biggest. human motivators we have that gets us to show up every day and be excited about our work.

Any final word of wisdom, uh, Alison, for leaders around the world?

Alison Fragale: Final word of wisdom. Okay. Um, Be yourself in the most strategic way possible. This is one of the things that I always, um, say is that strategic and authentic are not opposites. You can and should be both. So, you know, just as an example, when I said we like people who are like us, like you can be strategic and say, hey, Hey.

We have a lot of things in common. I’m going to talk about those things that we have in common, but there are things we legitimately have in common that we can tell we both light up when we start to talk about. That’s the very authentic piece of it. So that would be my advice is, um, you know, don’t reject it.

being strategic because we have to be strategic with thinking about other human beings. But that does not mean, strategic does not mean the opposite of authentic. Look for ways to bring those together and one of the things I love to do when I talk to individual people is to say, tell me who you are and what do you naturally like to do?

And then let’s think about how we tweak that on the margin to get you better results without you abandoning the way you like to show up. And I always promise people there’s always a way. There’s always a way to layer that in. So strategic and authentic. You can be both. Well, thank you so much. I can really stay with you for hours discussing it.

Probably we need to do another follow up discussion after the book is out, likeable, badass. I’ll be waiting for it, reading it. I think it’s in September, right? September. Awesome. thank you again for being with me today and for this incredible chat.

Alison Fragale: Likewise. Again, I round to any time you want. I love it. Thank you.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host, joined today by Carl Dahlberg, a physician innovator whose passion is solving important problems for real people.  Holding degrees from The University of Michigan Medical School and MIT Sloan School of Management Carl has a multifaceted background spanning technology, medicine, art and business.  He’s co-founder of the MIT Sloan Physicians Group and a mentor with the MIT Sandbox and UM6P Explorer innovation programs.  Carl blends medical proficiency with entrepreneurial spirit and relentless creativity to drive positive change in healthcare and beyond.

Carl, it is great to have you with me today!

Carl Dahlberg: Great to be here, thank you.

Naji Gehchan: I would love first to hear more about your personal story and what’s in between the lines of your journey.

Carl Dahlberg: Oh, I, uh, I always feel funny talking about my journey because it’s, I feel like sort of a, uh, pinball machine. I, I’ve had a whole, I’ve got kind of a weird background. Um, I started out as a computer nerd, uh, back in junior high school, before it was fashionable to be a nerd. And, uh, from there I went to college and I got a degree in computer science from the University of Michigan.

And I guess what I liked about working with computers was making things happen. Uh, you can give it instructions and tell it to do something and something exciting would happen. That always appealed to me. Um, from there, I worked out in Silicon Valley for a little while doing IT, uh, for a computer reseller.

And that was interesting. I love living in the Bay area. Uh, from there I went to Chicago and I worked in the financial, uh, derivatives trading industry, also doing IT for a while. And, uh, these were interesting years. Chicago was a fun place to live. And, and, uh, the trading industry is very, uh, how do I put this?

There’s a lot of human energy and making a trillion dollars change ends every day. And, uh, it was something that I just couldn’t get excited about. You know, the movement of money didn’t really matter to me. And I decided that I wanted to go to medical school. I ended up going back to my college, University of Michigan, where I kind of found that the people that most appealed to my personality were the emergency physicians.

I liked being the one to make a diagnosis and, uh, in emergency medicine, you never knew what you had to do next. You had some sort of problem and it might have been something that you had done many times, or it might be something completely new, but you had to interact positively in the situation. So I did my residency and then, uh, I moved out to Massachusetts and been practicing clinical emergency medicine for almost 20 years now.

And a few years ago, I started realizing that all that creativity and, and desire to innovate and solve problems that I liked about working with computers. Uh, just wasn’t, you know, uh, wasn’t being applied. I really looked at the way healthcare was being performed, and you watch the same problem being solved a few thousand times in a row, and you begin to, you know, shake your fist at it and think, can’t we just do something about this at a higher level?

And so, so it doesn’t happen again. Um, and that led me to get involved in a medical innovation event. Uh, there’s a whole bunch of, there’s a very good medical entrepreneurship and innovation community around Boston. Uh, And I kept meeting people that went to the Sloan School at MIT and found them very engaging.

And so I, I went there to get an MBA and training and entrepreneurship and global innovation. Uh, yeah, it’s kind of, it’s kind of a weird career among sort of ping ponging around different industries.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks a lot for sharing a card. It’s, uh, it’s a great journey. It’s not weird. It’s a great journey.

But I’m going to follow up on a question because you’ve been, as you said, your career span between tech, business, and medicine and kind of combining those. Is there, you feel any common thread in between all of these different experiences that you’ve had?

Carl Dahlberg: Yeah. I mean, I, I get excited about solving problems and, uh, I get most excited about solving important problems for real people.

I think this is a thing that drew me into emergency medicine is that, uh, you are, uh, whatever problem is in front of you is kind of by definition, the worst thing that has happened to that person, uh, in a while. And, uh, it’s an emergency, like they need something done with that. And I like the creativity of taking a situation and trying to make it better.

Um, and I think that that is why I didn’t stick with the financial industry because I like solving problems for people. Um,

Naji Gehchan: that’s the thread. I love that. Solving problem for people. And I, I’m an ER doc too, as you know, uh, it’s certainly, you feel that you’re solving a problem that is saving a life. And obviously in the healthcare industry broadly, this is what we, what we Uh, we, uh, we work for and this is what we do.

Uh, can I ask you what is the most exciting problem that you feel we will be solving in the next decade? Oh, boy.

Carl Dahlberg: Um, you know, I think there’s a total overhaul that needs to take place in the U. S. healthcare system. Um, This is not a specific problem that needs to be solved, but, uh, I think we have this sort of triple point where we’re spending an incredible amount of money, you know, far more than any other industrialized nation and getting very mediocre.

healthcare outcomes in terms of population health. You can, uh, you can measure that any number of ways. And we come out, you know, kind of the middle of the road when compared to other countries. And at the same point, uh, we’re same time, we’re burning out our healthcare, uh, workers, you know, physicians and nurses are, are leaving, uh, and honestly patients are firing us allopathic healthcare, uh, in frustration, you know, the systems that we’re creating, Aren’t solving the problems people have and I think the industry is the big problem is that the industry needs to be redesigned.

So it solves people problem better. And I think a lot of savings will come out of that. Uh, and that’s the problem I’m excited about solving right now.

Naji Gehchan: So can we dig into this? And I know you’ve been mentoring a lot of entrepreneurs, startups, obviously working in the healthcare space and trying to solve it.

Is there a single advice when you, uh, when you meet with those entrepreneurs? Who are solving those big issues that will help the society. Is there any advice that you would give them as they start this journey?

Carl Dahlberg: So every, every situation is different, but the things I mentor people on are, uh, sort of listening to the customers that, you know, talking to the people that are actually going to be using your solution to figure out, uh, what exactly the problem is as they see it.

And, uh, how they measure that and then designing a solution from there. Um, I think that’s a pretty consistent focus. I work with a lot of student teams at MIT and, and they’re very brilliant people, much smarter than I am. Um, but being brilliant often blinds you to, uh, sort of the listening that you have to do sometimes.

I think this will resonate with you as an emergency physician. You know, it doesn’t matter what you think is wrong with the patient. Um, what matters is what is wrong with the patient and you have to discover that and you can only do that by learning. Uh, so I think that’s the first lesson is to take your assumptions, uh, list them out so you know what you think and then put all that aside as you go listen and explore.

Naji Gehchan: I love this. Um, as you, um, as you’ve been doing this with several entrepreneurs, seeing startups and also through your, uh, amazing background of solving all over the time from IT to now saving lives, what is your biggest leadership lesson really between again, leading ER, And helping entrepreneurs and startups solve some of the most complex issues in the world.

Carl Dahlberg: So it’s funny that you ask that, you know, I, I, I didn’t used to think I was a leader in any way, you know, Hey, what do you do as an emergency physician? You’re not in charge of, might not be in charge of the department or the hospital or, but, uh, in emergency medicine, just working as a clinician, you lead people through, you know, some of the.

Most transformative experiences of their lives. You, you lead the team, uh, to align the incentives and. Uh get the nurses and the techs and and the radiologists and everybody else working on this problem any consultants you have Anyway, um, I think Aligning the incentives is the best model of leadership.

I have right now um I think that the old model of physician leadership is that the Physician has all the authority and all the knowledge and tells whatever everybody else to do and I think that’s very antiquated Um, I think modern leaders Are not The owners of intelligence and the owners of the plan that they, they embody the mission and that their main skills are to communicate the mission to the various participants or the various stakeholders or team members.

That, uh, you know, you bring the why and

Naji Gehchan: help the other people bring out the how. That’s powerful. Embodying the mission and aligning the incentives. I’m going to go to a section where I will give you a word and I would love your first reaction to it. The first, uh, the first one is innovation.

Carl Dahlberg: Innovation, creativity, and resilience.

What about entrepreneurship? So entrepreneurship is taking an idea or the idea of an innovation and actually turning it into something in the real world. To my mind that means solving an important problem for people. for people.

Naji Gehchan: So, so I, I love, I love how you always come back to not only the real problem, but for real people.

Can, can you expand a little bit more about this thread you have and this philosophy you have about, about it being for real people?

Carl Dahlberg: Uh, you know, when I, when I get involved in business, it’s an academic exercise for me. Um, I get most engaged when I am helping someone. I think that capitalism itself exists to serve the needs of people.

Uh, and, and this, I come to this perspective as a physician, uh, I have no problem with making a profit. Um, but I think that the organization should serve the needs of its customers, the needs of its employees, uh, and the needs of its stakeholders all together. And, uh, That makes healthcare a little different than other industries, right?

If you’re selling widgets, then you can sit back and say, I’m maximizing value to shareholders. I did my job, but I don’t think that’s enough in healthcare. And I think that we have too many people that view it that way. And, and it’s, it’s taking us healthcare off our mission.

Naji Gehchan: The third word is health equity.

Carl Dahlberg: So, Hmm. Hmm. Health equity is second nature to me. I, I think, I guess health, health equity to me means learning to see your own biases, your implicit biases that you don’t recognize you have. It’s kind of like learning to see your own eyeballs. Oh, which is tough and usually takes the assistance of somebody outside of you to do.

As an emergency physician, I provide health care without, you know, any knowledge of who can pay and who can’t. That doesn’t matter to me. It’s a fortunate perspective in the system. But I have to recognize that, you know, the places that I practice in the U. S., we have resources that other parts of the world don’t have.

Interestingly, one of those resources is not intelligence. You know, we are not the smartest people in the U. S. And, uh, I think that the creativity and the, the, the spirit of innovation that comes from working with limited resources, uh, is actually a great teacher and that we can all learn from that. Um, I’m not a fan of physicians that walk around saying, I know the best and I’m going to tell you how it is.

Uh, I’m much more of a, uh, a fan of a physician that says, here’s what I want to accomplish, and this is why, and how can we accomplish this together? Is that a reaction to that one?

Naji Gehchan: It’s a great, it’s a great reaction, and I relate to several things you said. The last one is spread love in organizations.

Carl Dahlberg: Oh, spreading love in organizations.

So, I’m a big fan of spreading joy in organizations. Love is a little nebulous to me, but joy, I understand instinctively. Um, you know, when you say go spreading love, you know, maybe you love your boss. That sounds weird. Do you love your employee? I think that empowering people to find joy in their practice.

Is is more on the mark. And when I say joy, you know, I’m in touch with my own joy when I’m solving problems for people like that is a joyful activity for me. It’s not always fun, by the way, there’s a often it’s confusion between joy and fun. Um, the two go hand in hand, but frequently you can be working on a really hard problem.

That’s really meaningful to you and not having much fun at it because you have to hit your head against a proverbial wall a few dozen times. Um. That makes sense to me that resilience and focus on the mission, uh, spreading love and organizations I think should be a natural by product of people finding joy in what they’re doing.

Naji Gehchan: I love this. Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?

Carl Dahlberg: Um, boy, I feel like, I feel like I have a lot of wisdom to offer. I just have, What I’ve experienced, I would say healthcare leaders, uh, should communicate and, and gather and bind together. I think there should be clinical input into leadership at all levels.

And because if you’re a healthcare leader, you know, your clinicians own the mission. They are the people that are enacting your mission. And if they’re not having input into the systems you’re creating, um, You’re potentially making a horrible mistake and you’ll never know unless you’re listening to them.Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, Carl, for being with me today and this great chat.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host, joined today by Emilia McLaughlin, founder and CEO of kyron.bio, a startup based in Paris dedicated to pioneering tomorrow’s therapeutics. Originally from London, Emilia moved to Paris in 2017 to pursue a PhD in parasite molecular biology at the Institut Pasteur. Upon completing her PhD, she founded kyron.bio with the aim of enhancing the efficacy of protein therapeutics through innovative glycan modifications. Since its inception, Emilia has successfully recruited a world-class scientific team, established a state-of-the-art laboratory, secured core technology IP, and garnered over €1.2M in competitive grants from the French government and the EU. Additionally, she has raised €1.1M in equity funding. Currently, the company is testing its first therapeutic in human serum and has developed a robust pipeline of innovative products. In 2024, Emilia was recognized as a Woman in Leadership by the European Innovation Commission. She is passionate about empowering women to take on leadership roles and supports academics who aspire to transition into entrepreneurship.

Emilia, it is great to have you with me today!

Emilia McLaughlin: Thank you, Naji. Great to be here.

Naji Gehchan: I would love for us to hear more about your personal story.

What brought you to biology and now founding and leading a biotech?

Emilia McLaughlin: Yeah. Okay. Um, so I think I’ve always been very, very interested in people and, um, illnesses, medicine. I, I really strongly considered, um, being a doctor for a long time. Um, I don’t really enjoy being in hospitals and that was one of the things that put me off, but I, I really wanted to find a way to help kind of, um, deliver.

therapies to humans, whether that was me doing it personally or helping the kind of, um, the generation, generation of those medicines. And I, I thought a long time I went, I studied biochemistry and, um, I thought afterwards again about doing a grad scheme for, for medicine. Um, finally decided that it was not for me and that I wanted to pursue a more academic route.

Um, I fell into parasitology, um, while I was at UCL during my undergraduate and I ended up with a brilliant, um, professor, Professor Osborne, where I, I worked under him on the malaria parasite. And I absolutely loved that project because you never question why you go to work when you work on malaria, you know, half a million people die every year and it’s an incredibly, um, We need a lot of brains on this to work on this.

And I found it fascinating both from the biological side and also, um, from the human side as well. So that kind of led me into this world of parasitology. Um, I then wanted to continue in that field, um, and that led me to my PhD in, um, in parasite molecular biology at Institute Pasteur in Paris, where I looked at African sleeping sickness.

Um, I love my PhD, but I knew that I didn’t want to stay in the lab. I think at that point, I began to recognize there was a bit of a distance between the academic research and what was going on for people in the field. Um, and it felt that what I was doing, you know, spending hours on a microscope, looking, looking at tiny green dots, um, trying to count how many GFP there were or something.

I couldn’t see the translation and I’ve always been a people person and I love working with, with people. And I think that’s where. I didn’t know what I wanted to do when I finished my PhD. I’d never thought really about starting my own company. Um, and then entrepreneurship kind of crossed my path because, uh, actually due to a tech incubator that kind of had been contact in contact with me since the second year of my PhD.

And they were like, we think you should join. We think you’d be great. You know, they make it kind of no risk from the minute I joined them. The incubator is called entrepreneur first for people that know it. And they kind of put tech and business profiles together before they have an idea and before they have a team.

The minute I joined that incubator, I was like, this is the world I want to be in. This is absolutely fascinating. The pace, the impact, the, um, the possibilities, the excitement, being so people focused as well, you know, now my job all day, uh, day in, day out is talking to people, and I absolutely love that and what I, the work that we do is also for, for patient populations and for individuals.

And I think that’s always been really, really important for me. And whilst I loved the academic path. slightly lost that connection, especially where I was working on a rare parasitic disease that is basically in remission now. Um, the WHO doesn’t recognize it as a, as a public health concern anymore. So it’s like, well, yeah.

Well,

Naji Gehchan: thank you so much for sharing this. And I, what you’re framing at this really, I love how you said biology and humans. Uh, so, You know, as you were talking about what you do today as a, as a founder of, uh, of the biotech you’re leading, you said it’s mainly with people and human and discussing with them.

And obviously this is not, I would say what people would, the first thing would come to mind, uh, for startups and biotech, you know, like it’s more about the science, the discovery, what, what are you doing? So I love how you. framed it. I’m sure. And I know there’s a lot of science behind it, but I want to dig a little bit deeper on, on this aspect.

And how do you see the people aspect actually of the biotech as a leader?

Emilia McLaughlin: I think it’s absolutely central. I think it comes in a few axes. The first is in the people that you hire. Um, Um, and having a very, very strong team with you, um, and in being a leader to the people in the team that, that, that you’ve recruited, um, number one, so your job as the leader is to support them to, to be the best they can be.

Um, secondly, it comes in the external communications of the company and making sure that what you’re doing, um, is. There is a problem that you’re solving and someone needs what you’re working on because I think that it’s very easy as an academic biotech, you know, when people got academic backgrounds, just to solve scientific problems because they’re interesting and they’re challenging.

But that’s not what we’re trying to do. We’re trying to make an impact for people. So it’s really important that we’re constantly out there talking to patients, talking to physicians, talking to patient groups, talking to people in the pharma industry. Talking to people that have many more years than, than experience than anyone in our team does.

Um, because combined, that’s where we’re going to really be able to find where the pain points are and be able to make sure that any product that we develop is needed by the industry. And we’re not going to just develop something that someone else has gone and done anyway. You know, um, that’s the only way that you’re going to is by.

being people focused. And that’s what I believe.

Naji Gehchan: And really like focusing on this unmet need, as you said, and the people you hire. So if I, if I move to how, how did you build your team? How do you hire people? Uh, and how do you bring talent into your organization? I’d love to know your philosophy.

Emilia McLaughlin: Yeah. Um, I think hiring is one of the most important things for a startup success.

It’s, it’s incredibly challenging and it’s incredibly, um, It’s, it’s incredibly time consuming. The best advice I’ve ever been given was by another founder. And, um, am I allowed to swear on this podcast?

Naji Gehchan: Be yourself.

Emilia McLaughlin: Yeah. Well, basically he said, if it’s not a fuck, yes, it’s a no, um, that’s like, I’m constantly reminding my team when we’re going through the recruitment process and we’ve been recruiting for six months, nine months, whatever.

It’s taking forever to find the perfect profile. But I think hiring is somewhere you have to be a perfectionist in a startup. You’re going to get it wrong. Yeah. People change, people have different needs, people’s things, you know, their life changes as well. But I think that you need to really follow your gut in terms of who you think can cope and who can cope in an academic lab is very different to who can cope in a startup.

You really need to Cut out all sorts of perfectionism out of people because perfectionism kills speed in a startup. And so I’ve learned a lot in my personal journey about the traits that I’m looking for in someone. I want everyone in the team to be an entrepreneur. I want everyone in the team to be a hustler.

These are not necessarily easy things to find, especially when you’re trying to recruit directly out of PhD, but they, they definitely exist, but you’ve just got to hunt for them. And it takes time when you find the right people. It’s amazing. And it’s worth waiting.

Naji Gehchan: I love the, what you shared and I usually frame it and if there is a doubt, there is no doubt, like whenever you feel a doubt in it.

The more polite way to put it. Yeah, probably. So, you know, like probably the S side. Uh, well, you, you talked about some of the trade, entrepreneur, hustler, Obviously, like the background of science, et cetera. Um, so during the interview, like I’d love, since you’re passionate about this, like, how do you assess this?

Have you made wrong hires? What is the wrong hire? Is it the wrong casting? I’d love to understand how you think about these only have successes. Please let me know how you did this.

Emilia McLaughlin: Of course, I haven’t only had success. There’s another founder. Another piece of advice I had was it’s about a 60 percent success rate.

And I see, I find that as well. Um, and that if you’re hitting that, it’s pretty good. Um, I think I’m getting, we’re really learning as a team. Um, it’s not just me, it’s other members of the team as well. We’re learning to really assess. Um, what does someone truly and deeply want from their life? Um, and are they prepared to work out of their comfort zone and go the extra mile?

And I think there’s a lot of ways that you can assess that. You can assess it practically by putting them out of their comfort zone in a case study and saying, okay, come back to me with, with answers to these things in 48 hours and see how they cope with it. You can assess it by putting them on the spot with kind of more personal questions as well.

I like to like really ask people about, um, about more personal angles of how they cope with stress and things like that in interviews. So I think there’s, there’s a couple of ways that you can do that, but above anything, I think you have to listen to your gut as well, because while someone might on paper look perfect, if your gut feeling is that they’re really not just going to be able to handle it, then You know, you have to trust that and go with it.

And, and I need to also trust other people in my team when they’re recruiting that, that if their gut’s telling them, no, it’s not going to work, then that that’s, then that’s a no, you know, if it’s not, if it’s not 10s across the board, it’s, it’s a no.

Naji Gehchan: So you, you are also passionate about, uh, helping transitions from academic, specifically women into, uh, into entrepreneurship and, um, building startups.

Uh, what, what is your biggest advice for, uh, From your learning experience, you would give people who want to do this jump?

Emilia McLaughlin: I would just say be brave and take the leap. I think particularly with academics, we often feel that we need to get everything right. And we need to have everything, we have to have all the answers figured out. But you really don’t, nobody does, and you’ve just got to throw yourself in and do the absolute best that you can do in, in, in, in any moment.

Nobody knows the future. Nobody knows what’s going to happen. You know, we’ve got to just try our best, but it’s the opportunity cost of not trying, um, I think is, is where you, where you’re missing out. If you don’t put yourself out there, I think. I’m particularly passionate about supporting other women in this transition, because I think women have a tendency to be more risk averse.

And, you know, a lot of people, when I started my company, particularly female colleagues would say to me, you’re so brave. Wow. You’re so brave. Why are you doing that? And I’d look at them. I said, why, why am I so brave? What have I done? Like, you know, I haven’t jumped off a, you know, I’m not jumping off a. Um, a bungee jump or something.

I’m, I’m just trying, you know, it’s not, it’s not, I’m not, uh, it’s about your perception of risk for them. They, they were seeing all the risks, but none of the upside. And it’s like changing that mindset of like, yeah, but the possibilities are also incredible. So I don’t see it as, uh, as brave. I just see it as like, it’s, it’s an opportunity that you’ve got to grasp.

And I see

Naji Gehchan: that you would do it again and again. And I love this energy that is transmissible. Let me ask you something specifically about Women Founder. You know in the US, and I’d love to hear your thoughts about it globally and in France as you’re in France now. It’s, it’s unfortunately still hard, underrepresented and underfunded, even though I think like more and more data is showing that, uh, companies founded by women and led by women performs better.

So how is it in France? How do you see things in Europe? Are we getting better there? And how are you advocating for that?

Emilia McLaughlin: Yeah, I think it’s incredibly similar. It’s across the board. You know, it’s 1 percent of companies are founded by 100 percent female founded companies. And only a small proportion more are male and female co founded.

But, you know, it’s a very small proportion of companies that are just led by women. I think, um, that that there is challenges with the ecosystem, but I also think that there’s a lot to do with that risk taking mindset of female individuals and how we can support them to feel comfortable. You know, I’m part of a women in leadership program.

And when we get together as a group of women, you just notice how How much we were often afraid to make mistakes, I guess we want to have all the answers figured out and how to basically encourage women to just be more bullish on things, just to go for it. Even if they don’t have all of the answers and they’re not perfect, how can we just say, just give it a try?

You know, it’s worth, it’s, it’s worth the risk, take the leap. And I think we’re not taught as a society to take, to, to, to push ourselves in that way so much. Um, And that of course applies to many men as well. It’s not only women, but I think that that, that partly contributes. And then there’s other challenges around, you know, job instability of running a startup.

You know, there’s, there’s not much support for that. I do think as a, as a female founder, I get additional support actually. Um, I would say like, I’m very well supported by the European innovation commission. They’ve been incredibly supportive to me. I’ve got a I’ve got a, um, Women Tech EU grant from them that specifically, um, supports female deep tech founders in the EU.

Um, and through that, I’m mentored by some amazing women as well. Um, and that really helps me. So I think there’s things that I’ve been able to access and benefit because I’m a female founder. Um. That said, you know, the pharma industry, a lot of the leaders are, are led by, by most of the leaders in the pharma industry are men.

So I’m, I’m operating in a very heavily male dominated, um, industry when we look at the leadership side and that is challenging, but I’d say in the startup world, it’s beginning to become a more supportive ecosystem, but I think we need change at the level of empowering women to, to feel that they can take the risk and maybe some way of.

mitigating that it feels like such an extreme career risk, I think, for some women to take the leap to be a founder. So how can we support them in that?

Naji Gehchan: Certainly. And, uh, yeah, I’m, I’m obviously also passionate about this and what we can do, uh, not only from a startup, uh, I see those moves happening in a lot in Europe and the US to, uh, support for, uh, founders startups, but the, the it’s better, but as you said, there is a long road and certainly also for corporate where, uh, this is one of the biggest.

focus that we should be having as leaders, uh, empowering women. Um, how, how do you know when, if we move into the science part and just for people to know also about what you do, uh, within your company from a biotech standpoint, how would you define what you do in a simple, in a simple way? What are you working on?

Emilia McLaughlin: So we work on sugars. So sugars are carbohydrate molecules or glycans that added to the surface of, um, of protein drugs that are really important, um, for the efficacy and the longevity. So how well a drug performs and what we have at Chiron bio is a unique set of tools to control those sugars. So, um, physically how long they are, how many of them they are and how they behave in the human body.

And we’re applying this, uh, specifically to autoimmune diseases, whether it’s a, whether it’s a huge unmet need, um, less than 50 percent of patients are in remission from disease. And we’re using these innovative approaches to sugar engineering to design versions of drugs that have much, um, higher efficacy in, in, in patients.

Um, and so that, You know, we can target some of these major issues in the industry of, of patients being in chronic pain for, for life at some times. So developing much more, um, efficacious treatments for the patients.

Naji Gehchan: This is great and certainly impactful. What is currently your biggest challenge? Is it scientific?

Is it funding? What is your biggest challenge as an organization?

Emilia McLaughlin: That’s a great question. Um, I mean, there are so many challenges when you’re on the laptop. Um, they range from very, very small things to very, very big things. Um, I think the biggest challenge for us globally is getting the commercial development right, like making sure that we’re developing our, yeah, it’s our, it’s making sure that we’re really, um, yeah, it’s, it’s the commercial development side.

I can, I can dive into more of that if you want, but, um, it’s, it’s the making sure that we are developing a drug that rheumatologists will say, yes, this is going in my patient.

Naji Gehchan: Well, this is, this is, I love that you’re framing it that way. And can you remind us which stage you are, if it’s, Public, obviously, like, I don’t want you to go to things.

You don’t want to share, but

Emilia McLaughlin: yeah, you

Naji Gehchan: are. And why so early in your stage, you’re starting to think about that. That’s, that’s a great point. Uh, actually I talked with some biotechs. They, you know, they are focused on their pre clin and the innovation they have, and they don’t think about like, let’s make sure that it gets into patient’s hands at the end of the day, because this is what we should all be doing.

Great. So I love that you framed it that way. So can you help us understand where are you in the journey?

Emilia McLaughlin: Yeah, we’re preclinical, but I think we, you know, we, we have a set of tools that we can apply in a lot of different ways. And so my job as a CEO is to find the absolute best path where we can apply this.

And I think probably contrary to other biotechs where they’re spinning out one specific molecule and they’re fixed on their path, you know, they can’t do that. they can’t shift at all. We have a lot of potential with what we’re doing for the sugar engineering. There are so many ways we can apply this in the, you know, in, in the, in the pipeline for us, but for our first kind of commercial success, we need to get it right.

And that’s why it’s very, very important that. We are choosing the best application. That’s going to have the biggest impact in the clinic. Um, so, and for me, it’s really the clinicians, because those are the people that make the decision. Of course, in the U S there’s also the healthcare providers that we have to think about the pricing.

We have to think about this a lot, because if we can’t be competitive on pricing, no, one’s going to want our, our eventual drugs. So I think it, it’s very important for me that we’re building something that is for patients. And the person that will decide whether it goes to a patient will be the clinician.

So that’s where we’re very focused on, on that side of things, uh, in understanding, um, how can we make things better for the patients?

Naji Gehchan: So I mean, yeah, I would, uh, move now to a section where I’m going to give you a word and I would love your first reaction to it.

Emilia McLaughlin: Okay.

Naji Gehchan: The first one is leadership.

Emilia McLaughlin: I would say freedom.

Naji Gehchan: Oh, I want to, uh, it’s the first time I hear this reaction after 130 plus interviews, I’d love to learn more about it.

Emilia McLaughlin: You want me to expand?

Naji Gehchan: Yes.

Emilia McLaughlin: Yeah. Um, I think like being a leader is, there’s a lot of freedom in that. Like you, first of all, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re your own boss, but also you have your freedom to run your team and, and, and do things be dynamic, be agile in the way that, that.

That you want to do it. I think there’s a lot of freedom in being a leader. Um, and you, you get to, I mean, I’m, I’m really talking about being a CEO here, but where you get to, to choose your team, you, you get to, you know, design how the team runs and things like that. And there’s an awful lot of freedom there.

Like the, the kind of

Naji Gehchan: what about entrepreneurship,

Emilia McLaughlin: uh, excitement,

Naji Gehchan: biotech,

Emilia McLaughlin: um, patients.

Naji Gehchan: The last one is spread love and organizations.

Emilia McLaughlin: Um, leadership would come in.

Naji Gehchan: Can you expand on that?

Emilia McLaughlin: Well, I mean, it’s what I’m thinking, what comes to mind when I think about your podcast and kind of building up like leadership and, and, and hearing from different leaders.

Um, but I think leadership is also about spreading love in organizations and, and within teams as well, and making sure we’re working together in a collaborative

Naji Gehchan: way. Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?

Emilia McLaughlin: Um, I think it’s just keeping the patients, um, at the forefront of what we’re doing.

I think it’s really, really important. Um, we have some amazing innovations out there. How can we get these to patients as fast as, as fast as possible?

Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, Emilia, for being with me today. And a huge congrats to what you’ve achieved already with, um, with your company. And wishing you all the best in the next steps.

Thank you again.

Emilia McLaughlin: Great to chat today.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host for this special episode in partnership with Boston Biotechnology Summit, a bridge to collaboration and innovative synergies between healthcare stakeholders. I am joined today by Jonathan Levy CEO of Pepkon. Jonathan is a Pharmacist from University of Paris with a masters in management from ESSEC Business school. He has worked in various environment of the healthcare sector in France from pharmacy to hospital, and also in big pharma and startups. His last role before joining Pepkon was within Truffle Capital a French VC; where he participated in several investments in biotech and also company creations, m&a and licensing deals. Two years ago Jonathan joined PepKon, a startup developing first in class therapeutic peptides in oncology, first as a COO, and now leading the company as its CEO.

Jonathan Levy: Thank you, Naji. I’m very happy to be here with you.

Naji Gehchan: Well, first, congratulations again on winning the first prize of the Boston Biotech Summit in 2024. Before we go there and what you do at Pepcon, I’m really interested and eager to hear more about your personal story, what brought you to pharma, healthcare, and now becoming a CEO in a biotech.

Jonathan Levy: Thank you. Okay. So, yes, so when I was young, I was, I was very interested in science, uh, medicine, and I think it’s, so helping others.

Uh, I really was looking up to my, uh, family members, like my grandfather and my aunt who had that DNA of being a doctor, you know, and helping others. And uh, and in the same time, I was very interested in the business aspect, leading companies and wanting to have a positive impact with my hands on, uh, you know, always daring to be in very challenging situations.

Uh, because that’s, I feel that’s where you learn the most. And so I have the example of my, uh, I mean, several entrepreneurs around me, like my father was CEO of a big company. So for me, being an entrepreneur in the biotech field is really a perfect mix of my aspiration in medical and business field.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks for sharing that. Can you tell us, uh, that now that you’re doing it, I love how you’re framing it between science and leading organization and the biotech feels like the best of both were to. Can you share with us what have you learned so far as a leader and as a, as an individual who has built this company from early on?

Jonathan Levy: First, I’d like to say that I didn’t create the company, I, I joined it a few months after it was created. And, uh, I think the first thing I’ve learned is, uh, I mean, I don’t know if that’s something you learned, but it’s humility because I’ve joined a project that was, uh, Uh, I’ve had a very, like a breakthrough science with a few amazing people.

And I, I had to like recruit some, uh, other, uh, great skilled people, you know? So the first thing for me was big, humble, uh, listening, learning. And then after a period, I. And I started to really, uh, take the leadership, uh, be the strategic vision, uh, take people with me, you know, and, uh, of course take the decisions.

So that’s why I, uh, I became a CEO of the company and, um, and I think it was an amazing experience for me to, to, to become a leader as a very young age because I learned, uh, a lot and very fast.

Naji Gehchan: So as you’re going through the journey, you know, I always said like science humbles us. I love that you started with this. Like there’s the humidity that you’re building, I imagine by building the team, as you said, but also with the science you’re, um, you’re starting, you have great science so far preclinically.

Can you tell us a little bit more about what you do and what you’re trying to solve at Pepcon? Sure.

Jonathan Levy: So at Pepcon, uh, we develop therapeutic peptides, which come from Uh, the academic research of, uh, the lab of Professor Philippe Caroyan, so it’s French academic research. And we developed first in class therapeutic peptide.

What’s very unique is we’re exploring a new, uh, cell based pathway, which targets CD47 in a very selective way, which means that it’s killing cancer cells while sparing healthy cells. It’s very different from what’s currently in development. And we, and the lead product we have demonstrated efficacy on several indications, including solid tumors.

Uh, several kind of leukemia also, even refractory patients. Uh, so we’re now conducting preclinical studies on animals and our goal is to start a first in human clinical trial, uh, end of next year. For that, we need a first to raise a Series A. And as of now, we’ve, uh, been lucky enough to raise 5 million euros, including several grants from a BPI in France, which is a look.

Naji Gehchan: Well, it’s also a testament of your work, you know, and I wouldn’t just frame it as like, even if you’re doing it. Um, so as you look through, you’re saying, but actually going through series A, building a phase, uh, phase one with multiple indication in oncology. Uh, as a CEO today of the organization, what is your biggest challenge and what is your biggest opportunity you see for the next, uh, month?

Jonathan Levy: So I think every biotech has the same challenge. It’s a race against time with limited resources and really like daily ups and downs. So I think one of the main challenges is raising money. And it’s also raising money and differentiate yourself on the scientific aspect. in a very competitive and international environment.

And I think it’s in, in, uh, oncology, it’s very, uh, I mean, oncology is really a very competitive field. You really have to demonstrate the differentiation and you need to convince not only the doctors, but also the investors, the pharma company, and, uh, uh, you have to fit with the strategy, you know, the pharma companies and also take.

In consideration, uh, the, the real data you have. So it’s really a mixed of, uh, of, uh, uh, the data, the pharma, uh, need the business investors. And, uh, of course, and what’s most, most important is, uh, the patient because it’s, it was started with patients at the end. The, the common goal is, uh, bringing patients, uh, safer and more effective treatment.

And that’s really the, uh, the, the goal of, uh, of PEPCON, and, uh, I would say another challenge. I think it’s a common, uh, common one for CEO, it’s recruiting the best team, the best skilled people. Of course, uh, you bring to the team people who are way smarter than you with skills that you don’t have yourself.

And the job of the CEO is to bring out the best of each of us, of each of the team member, uh, motivate them, inspire them to, to, to be with you in this, uh, in this journey. And then, uh, take the best decisions for the, for the company. So, uh, yeah, in the end, I’m very, I mean, I’d say it’s because you asked for the challenge, but there’s the opportunity to, I say the opportunity is that I’m just lucky to be part of the, this project, which is fascinating.

I’m learning every day with people who are, uh, way smarter and experienced than me, and, uh, I think the opportunity that they motivated every day. By this goal, which is, um, really a noble cause, which is, which I feel is bigger than, uh, than this. And

Naji Gehchan: this is, this is crucial as you’re saying, it’s the core of what we do in this industry, uh, trying to bring new hope, new medicines for several people who are in need, uh, for, for better treatments.

Uh, you, you did a great segue to my next question about team. So as you’ve been building your team, growing your team. within the startup. How do you think about it as you scale up your company and move from a stage to another? Um,

Jonathan Levy: so first, as I told you, the main thing is, uh, is to bring to the team, people who are very skilled, but it’s also bring people who have the same motivation and values. So, so we share the common goal, you know, of, of treating patients. And, uh, uh, we also look at personality and soft skill because we really need the team to be, uh, working together well in order to, to advance the project.

So yeah.

Naji Gehchan: Perfect combination of skills. And as you’re saying, uh, focusing on having the shared purpose, you said, and the shared values with your organization. Is it when you think about it, I know for the Boston summit, you came to Boston, where you won the prize. Is there like. Top line differences that you felt between the ecosystem that you have in France and in Europe compared to the one you saw in Boston?

Jonathan Levy: Uh, yeah, of course, Boston is really like when you go there, you arrive there, you feel that there is a huge ecosystem in a very small place with all the investor or the pharma startups and all the best hospitals. So I think the combination of All these very, uh, smart people in the healthcare sector is really, uh, a great opportunity to move the projects, maybe, uh, faster and, uh, and, uh, but I would say that in France, so we have a great ecosystem, which is, uh, growing up, um, more and more.

And we also have. Uh, great, uh, financing opportunities in terms of non divertive opportunities. So, um, uh, I’d say that, uh, the Boston ecosystem will be a great next step for us. And that today we, we are, uh, well established in the French ecosystem and that we have many great opportunities here in France.

Naji Gehchan: No, for sure. But I’m biased. I’m French too. But it’s, I think the science has no limits, has no frontiers, and you guys have great science and great teams working on this science to bring it to people. So wishing you all the best in this journey. I’m going to move now to a section where I will give you a word and I would love your reaction to it.

So the first one is leadership.

Jonathan Levy: As I said before, first is being humble, listening to people in the team, and then, uh, providing really a strategic direction that motivate them to, uh, give the best, follow you and, um, and, uh, you really also have to take the decision for the team in the end. It’s even if people give you a lot of advices, a lot of information, it’s you who have to handle the decision.

and give the example and the vision. Yeah. Second one is innovation.

Uh, I say innovation in, in healthcare is, uh, not some thing. It’s like not only something new. It’s, uh, it’s not only an invention it’s, Something that is new, but that also will have, uh, will be useful for patients that will make their life better. And that’s what we, of course, all work for. Um, I’d say that, uh, we’re lucky to have very smart people in the lab.

Very smart scientists with amazing, uh, inventions and, uh, to make them innovation, you need to take them out of the lab and bring them to, to patient. And, uh, that’s, uh, that’s the job. That’s the job of a company.

The third one is VC VC. You like venture capital. Yeah. Um, venture capital is, uh, necessary because you can’t Advance a project in biotech with without money. Uh, not easy to convince because they are very smart and they have smart analyst. Uh, but I guess they have the same goal on us to bring, uh, uh, value, to create value, but also to bring, uh, an innovations to patients.

Naji Gehchan: The last one is spread glove in organizations.

Jonathan Levy: Um, I’d say so spread love for me is to grow, uh, to help people around you grow as well. So to share your experience to help people help them be happy and they, um, achieve their personal goals and ambitions. Um But with the aim, like the common aim to, to reach a shared goal, which is, as I said before, bigger than every individual.

And that we can, we can only achieve by working together as a team, with the team, but also with partners, voters, investors, and of course patients. Uh, we, I mean, yeah,

Naji Gehchan: that’s it. Any final word of wisdom gen for healthcare leaders around the world?

Jonathan Levy: I don’t know if I , I have wisdom to share, but I taste that. I, I’d say that in, uh, in, in oncology, uh, but also in other, uh, disease. We all have friend or are relative who are sick, who have cancer. So our common goal is, uh, to help them, uh, to bring, uh, something new for, to, to increase the life of patients. I think it’s, uh, for us, it’s more than a job.

It’s, uh, it’s a patient, it’s, it’s a mission. And, uh, I guess together we, we’re going to, to, I mean, we aim to, to enhance, to advance science, but also advance, uh, uh, health care. And, uh, regarding that. Very often, you know, we have some, uh, um, started competition and I never look at my, uh, I mean, colleagues as competitors.

Really. I think there is, uh, uh, there is a need for everyone to, to bring its science and there, and there is not only one company that we reach. reach the goal, it will, uh, will need everyone.

Naji Gehchan: This is a great way to wrap up this great conversation. I love how you said it: It’s more than a job.

It’s a mission. And it’s so true. We, all of us, Share this mission to hopefully be able to bring more life To patients and more years to their life too. So thank you so much Jonathan for being with me today.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I’m Naji, your host, joined today by Anthony Yanni Senior Vice President and Global Head of Patient Centricity at Astellas Pharma. Anthony practiced Patient Centricity as a doctor and drug developer before the term even existed – by listening to patients and applying what he learned to offer better care. Now a veteran of senior leadership roles in hospitals and industry, Anthony is among the world’s leading advocates of Patient Centricity as a proven model for healthcare delivery and medicines development. In articles, interviews, talks, and now a book, he reveals Patient Centricity as an overdue disruption that will improve and speed up the treatments many people are waiting for.

Anthony Yanni: Oh, thank you, Naji. It’s great to be here.

Naji Gehchan: I’d love first to hear more about your personal story before going to patient centricity and really why you became a physician and what brought you to the industry and now being an executive and thought leader.

Anthony Yanni: Yeah, so, you know, my journey began a long, long time ago, um, when I decided I wanted to go into healthcare and become a physician. And, um, when I went to medical school, my focus was really on how do I spend as much time with patients? I was very, much energized by the interaction physicians had with patients in the exam room with their family members.

And so, when I graduated medical school, I did a residency in internal medicine, and I spent over 12 years working directly with patients in the exam room at the bedside intensive care unit, all the aspects of patient care that most of us are familiar with from, uh, internal medicine specialists. It was just an amazing experience.

I loved every minute of spending time in the exam room and talking to patients and their families. From that role, I also had an interest in business, and I, uh, subsequently became chief of internal medicine and then chief medical officer of a hospital system, which really gave me a perspective on the delivery of care.

In a broader sense, uh, how do systems deliver care? How do you manage systems? How do you deal with regulations and governments and payers? Um, and so I was really fortunate to see health care from the exam room, from the administration of hospital systems and the delivery of care. And then from there I went on into pharma, first working in regular clinical development role, writing protocols and developing medicines, and then finally into what is now patient centricity, uh, which, um, again, I’ve been in this space for, uh, well over 12 or 13 years.

As well, we could talk more about that.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks for sharing, uh, uh, Anthony, uh, you transitioned from being a clinician to the industry. And so you, you said the very early days of medicine, you were looking how to spend most of the time with, uh, with patients. So I I’d love if you go back in time, what would be your biggest advice you would give to yourself?

As you did this transition.

Anthony Yanni: Yeah, it’s it’s actually I talk about this in the book as well. And this idea of always be open to opportunities. I think I’ve tried to follow that path in my career. You know, you always want to have a plan. You always want to understand where it is. You want to end up, but always be open to change into opportunities that might Okay.

Not be something that was on your mind prior, but gives you an opportunity to do something that’s exciting and, and, um, and, uh, and gives you energy. And so that’s sort of how I approached the transition from clinical practice into hospital administration from hospital administration into industry. Each time I saw an opportunity to have an impact on patients, and that’s what really my, was my baseline focus.

Naji Gehchan: I love it. Opportunity to have an impact on patients. So let’s talk about patients and patient centricity. So it’s your focus, your passion, your obviously publishing, uh, around it for several, uh, years. And now a book, uh, can tell us, well, the name of the book is a Bandana and a Blue Hat. So let’s start a Blue Bird Band.

And a Bluebird. Yeah, A Bandana and a Bluebird. Um, so let’s start first by defining what you mean by patient

Anthony Yanni: centricity. So patient centricity has been a term that’s been sort of used over the last maybe five or seven years, and I think it’s been used in different ways. So I define patient centricity in two ways.

One is an operational definition. It’s the, uh, active integration of patient insights into all decisions leading to patient solutions. So the patient takes part in all of the activities when we’re developing new medicines, new solutions for them. And their inputs help us to make different decisions than we would have if we had not engaged and learned from them.

The second definition is a cultural one. It’s the conscious awareness of the patient in every role, every day, and in every activity inside of a company. Both of those definitions are critical if we are truly going to have a patient centric process that changes the way we develop solutions and changes the way we work together with patients and patient groups.

Naji Gehchan: So can we go on each of one and how as leaders we can influence each of one? So the first one, as you’re saying is, uh, if I did to make it in a simple way, correct me if I’m wrong, I’m thinking One is external. So how to make sure that the insights and the voices are of patients are influencing all the different steps you said from drug development to commercialization.

And then the other one is the internal work to make sure that we are making decisions based on what’s best for patients. So if we, can you give us some examples, use cases and how as leaders we can ensure both are going forward hand in

Anthony Yanni: hand? So I would define it just slightly differently. I think you’re right that it has to be an internal and external component, but I define it in two categories of work.

One is operational work, meaning how do you, how do you make actionable the patient insight? So for instance, many companies might go out and ask patients their opinions about certain diseases and certain treatments. But if you don’t connect that to action. We haven’t changed the way the next generation of solutions are being developed.

We’ve done part of the work, but not finished the work. Patient centricity is more than asking patients for their advice or their input. Patient centricity is asking for it and then utilizing it. So that we change the way we make decisions. So that’s the first piece. Operationally, how are we utilizing patient insights to change the way we develop medicines?

The second piece is the foundational piece. It’s the culture of the organization. The culture piece is what makes the act, the operational piece sustainable. So if you have, we have five teams that were four teams that work on the operational component inside of Estella’s and one team that focuses on the culture.

But if we didn’t have a cultural piece of the entire organization wasn’t saying every day that when I go to work, it’s for the patient. My job is to deliver solutions. you know, with patients for patients, the operational piece wouldn’t be sustainable. So what we do is we create a culture where everyone understands the focus of their work, the purpose of the day.

And that also helps with organizational recruitment and retention satisfaction at work. So there’s a whole benefit to the cultural piece. But if you can keep the cultural piece positive, the operational piece that you’ve created will be sustainable. Both of those are critical to having a patient centricity function that’s, that is impactful to patients.

Naji Gehchan: This, this is really great and I deeply believe in this, like, driven by purpose, obviously, for, for us to deliver for the patients we serve. Uh, are there any tips, example, as we go through it? Because both of us know when we’re leading large cross functional teams, and I’m assuming, but correct me if I’m wrong, the culture you’re talking about is really a cross functional culture.

the organization cross functionally, not only one, not only development, not only marketing, MetaFair, like I, are you thinking about it cross functionally? And if it’s the case, do you have any good examples where several times teams are so taken in the daily tasks and things we need to deliver that Patients become remote somehow, unfortunately.

So how can you remind people? How do you do it in a tactical way for your people across the organization to keep this always in mind? Yeah, so

Anthony Yanni: it’s, it’s absolutely true. It’s absolutely critical that it involves every geography, every role, every day. That’s the way a culture is built and sustained. So we do engage everyone from researchers to development people, commercial folks.

As well as finance and HR team members, everyone should understand that their role is critical to the work that we’re doing. The way, the way we did this is, you know, the how is creating cultural programs that are, that transition from passive to active. So many companies have Great. Um, you know, uh, pictures on their walls to talk about the culture they wish they had.

That narrative piece doesn’t last very long. It just becomes wall art after a while. If you don’t connect it to active ways, the team members can participate. and remind themselves and continue to learn that they are part of a culture that’s unique and we’re privileged to be part of. So, we have active programs inside of the company that everyone, everywhere can participate in, including a patient centricity university, which is a curriculum based learning opportunity for certification centricity, where you can participate in each level, grow, and ultimately in the final Um, in the final certification level, you can come back and teach the organization what you’ve done.

That was unique in delivering a patient centric approach to solve a problem. And then you become part of the teaching faculty of this university. So going from a passive to active culture is the key in any industry to having a sustainable, positive culture and impact.

Naji Gehchan: Certainly living it as you’re saying, living it with actions.

Passive to active, uh, when you’re, do you have any good, strong example? I’m sure you do on where this culture actually enabled what you said operationally can be done for patients. If there’s one you’re really proud about that you literally changed how we think about patients and one of our processes in the

Anthony Yanni: pharma industry.

Yeah, that’s a great question. And I I’m so proud of so many things. I can tell you that we have teams, the four teams that are active in the operational. part of patient centricity. We have a team that specializes working with research teams. We have a team that specializes in understanding the patient in the real world setting.

So they’re working with development and medical teams and commercial teams. We have a team that specializes in behavior, um, understanding the patient, um, in their interaction with the healthcare system, the healthcare providers, their caregiver. And we have a team that works with developing relationships with patients.

When we started, Each of these teams was meant to parallel the entire discovery to delivery system that exists in pharma. So, for instance, that team that works with the researchers, we have transitioned from starting to work with them to them requiring part, requiring their teams to, to engage our teams before they make decisions on the molecules.

They actually ask about. and regularly want to understand the exam room approach for the treatment of the disease they’re thinking about in the research lab. The commercial teams, when they’re talking about patients are talking about products. We don’t as a rule, patient centricity is brand agnostic. We don’t work with any brands.

We’re not salespeople. We bring the patient into the system so that all the teams can work more efficiently. But you know, I’ve been in rooms with commercial teams where they talk about Not how many sales they’re going to have in a region, but how many patients can be treated. How many patients are, you know, are, are waiting for this particular, um, solution.

I mean, that’s remarkable when you start to hear folks inside of an organization talk about patients first. Um, regardless of the role that they’re playing in. Many of these roles are highly technical, as you know, but to bring it back to the patient, it’s remarkable. And just as an aside, just as a quantitative measure, we, um, do pulse surveys periodically.

And the last pulse survey has been a while back now, um, just to level set the pulse survey nationally, internationally, globally, and in the U. S. The positivity rate of employees is In various industries, across industries is about 18 or 19%, meaning are you do you feel positive about the role you’re in? 18, 19%.

That was a Gallup poll in September of 2023. We did a pulse survey and 80 percent of the team members believe they were contributing to a patient solution. 80%. That’s a remarkable result. Of not just what we’re doing, but the belief, the true belief that they know they’re contributing in the work that they do.

And it’s important

Naji Gehchan: that it is remarkable. And I certainly relate to that and believe in this. Right. And as you’re saying, we, uh, we are all in this industry for for a noble purpose and being reminded day by day why we wake up and each one of us has this part. to at the end get it to patients. So I love how you’re framing it and where you’re going.

And ultimately, yeah, all that we do is. to make life better for, for those patients who need our treatment. So it’s, it’s really great work that you’re doing with, uh, with your teams. Thanks for sharing this. Any tech, uh, advances when you think about patient centricity that you’re, if you look at the future, the next decade, there’s a lot of discussions about not only, technology in life sciences, but also computational science, et cetera.

Is there any tech that you’re really excited about and you think that will transform and improve patient centricity?

Anthony Yanni: I think There are two specific areas that probably need to be addressed regularly. First is, I think the technology of virtual reality, augmented reality, bring opportunities for us to show internally or to share internally the patient experience more specifically.

We’ve done that with VR, uh, and patients who have impaired sight. I think that changes the game as far as how we understand the work that we’re doing. The people that are waiting for solutions and the importance of us doing it in the most efficient way possible. Um, and it changes the, the, the, the internal teams understanding of, of really, even if you believe wholly what we’re doing, it changes the depth of the understanding just to have that small little experience.

that patients might have. As small as it is, it helps for us to understand it. The second thing that always has to be addressed these days is, is um, artificial intelligence, AI. I think there’s this excitement about the opportunity and I do think it, it does present an exciting future for understanding the patient experience, but I am very cautious when it comes to that.

I think we have to be very careful. As it is deployed to understand what are the impacts of larger data sets. Large, large amounts of data does not necessarily mean better information. And sometimes larger data sets can actually confuse the issue and confirm things that you want, wish were true, and maybe not necessarily give us the truth of a larger population.

I think we need to accept the fact that this is something that’s going to happen. We need to understand. before we try to use these larger data sets in this artificial intelligence as to what is specifically the question we’re asking. How are we mining this information? How are we going to review this information to apply it appropriately?

And how do we most, most importantly protect patient privacy? at all costs because that’s the, that’s what they deserve with this most precious pieces of information. Um, the, the other thing with, um, AI is that it will never take the place of live interactions with patients. You need to be in the room or these days maybe on Zoom to talk to people to understand what it is.

that is important to them. As the conversation progresses, it can’t just be a static question that’s answered on a form in or in a data in a data lake that is that is captured. I want to see that patient. I want to understand their life. I want to understand their context. And I talk a lot about this In the book about context being incredibly important behavior being incredibly important.

We need to understand that each patient is different and while large amounts of data are going to be necessary because we can’t talk to a million patients talking to patients does add unique and valuable information beyond simply tables of information.

Naji Gehchan: So I want to move us now to a section where I’ll give you a word. It’s And I would love your first reaction to it. The first one is leadership.

Anthony Yanni: Leadership is a balance. Can I give more than a single word answer or can I, okay, good. I didn’t know if I was supposed to just give one word here. I think leadership is a re, a required balance between, uh, innovation and risk for us to progress in the future in a positive way for patients.

What about purpose? The reason for the day each of us in every industry need to have a purpose as leaders. We need to ensure we support that purpose too often in industries, not just health care, not just pharma. We expect the purpose, but don’t support it. And in fact, we’re letting down the actual team members who come on board expecting that their purpose.

will be able to be executed and fulfilled. So as leaders to the first part of the question, we need to support the purpose with a culture that is true to what we claim it to be.

Naji Gehchan: And I want to give a shout out to, uh, Jill Donahue, uh, who also shared this and have, uh, she has a book that launched.

previously on the power of purpose. Um, so I completely agree.

Anthony Yanni: Jill’s a terrific example of somebody who understands probably more than anyone, the power of purpose, uh, which is her book and the fact that purpose drives, um, efficiency, it drives satisfaction and it drives outcomes.

Naji Gehchan: The third one is a bandana and a blue bird.

Bandana and a

Anthony Yanni: bluebird is our symbols for patients, the patients that have taught me my lessons in developing the patient centricity function. They represent, they represent the very solemn and critical contribution patients make every day to our learning, to our evolution. And for me, It’s the commitment from, from me to honor their memories and their, their, um, willingness to share these private, private stories and, um, experiences with their health care providers and those in their network to hopefully change the way we deliver care for the better.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you for sharing this and your book will be. Uh, available very soon and we will, uh, we will share it on the podcast for, for several of us to learn more about the stories of those symbols and how we can improve patient centricity. The last word is spread love and organizations.

Anthony Yanni: That that’s that’s an easy one for me. I mean, everything we do should be with love as the common thread, right? We we are all going to be patients. We are all going to need the health care system We are all working every day for those people who are waiting for solutions and whether you’re in health care or any other industry Is there a better way to work than with love, than with that commitment to believe in what you’re doing, the greater good, and with the hope that at the end of every single day, we can go home and know that we did our very best.

And that the people who are waiting can rest assured they’re on our minds, they’re in our hearts, and that we’re doing what we can.

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom, Anthony, for healthcare leaders around the world?

Anthony Yanni: Yeah, I think, uh, my, my final word is one is a challenge. As I, as I point out in the book that this is the time. We can make a difference. We have a purpose. We are at a point now where we can disrupt the way things are and how we develop medicines and start to develop them with patients, for patients, with their benefit and their needs in mind.

We can change the way we deliver healthcare and transition away from treating patients and start to care again for individuals. And together, linking these systems, we can truly change the way. Medicine is developed and healthcare is delivered. Now is the time. We can do it. Let’s, let’s do it together.

Naji Gehchan: Now it’s the time.

Let’s do it together. I love this. Thank you so much, Anthony, for joining me today. It’s been a real pleasure to talk to you again and hear more about what all the work you’ve been doing. Thank you again.

Anthony Yanni: Thank you, Nigel.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to Spread Love in Organizations podcast. Subscribe and connect with us on spreadloveio.

com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement our world so desperately needs.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I’m Naji, your host, for this special episode in collaboration with MIT Sloan Healthcare and Bioinnovations Conference, an event that brings the healthcare ecosystem together.

I have the pleasure to be joined by Colin Stultz, who will be Professor in Medical Engineering and Science, Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science, Co Director of the Harvard MIT Program in Health Sciences and Technology, Member of the Research Laboratory of Electronics, and Associate Member of the Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory.

Cullen is also a practicing cardiologist at the Massachusetts General Hospital MGH. Cullen’s scientific contributions have spanned multiple fields, including computational chemistry, biophysics and machine learning, for cardiovascular risk stratification. He is a member of the American Society for Biochemistry and Molecular Biology and the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology, and he’s a past recipient of the National Science Foundation Career Award and the Burrough Wellcome Fund Career Award in the biomedical sciences.

Currently, research in his group is focused on the development of machine learning tools that can guide clinical decision making. Colin, it’s an honor to have you with me today.

Collin Stultz: Thank you for having me, Naji, and thank you for asking me to participate.

Naji Gehchan: Before we dig in AI as a catalyst for care delivery, which was the topic of your panel at the conference, I’m eager to hear more about your personal story and what’s in between the line of such an inspiring journey.

Collin Stultz: Yeah. Thanks. I wish I had a, um, a simple way to explain getting from getting to where I am today. It was quite a circuitous route. Um, so I’ve been immigrant. I was Born in Jamaica, West Indies. We immigrated to this country when I was four years old. Parents came from poverty and came here to, uh, achieve the American dream.

And one of the things I like to, you know, tell people is, like, my parents, um, religion and education were terribly important to them. So, as a youth, the two things that I remember the most was going to church and studying. I was a big nerd for, for, for most of my life. And it was a good thing because it kept me away from all of the bad things in the neighborhood that I was Surrounded by.

Long story short, came to, um, Harvard, loved mathematics, did, uh, math and philosophy for an undergraduate major. And, uh, my parents wanted me to go to, uh, medical school and I really didn’t, wasn’t keen on it at the time. I wanted to do something in, in pure mathematics, but, uh, pure math really didn’t help people, um, the way that a physician could.

So I went to medical school, wasn’t really fond of that, left for a year, did research, came back, finished up medical school, completed a PhD. And then went on to do an internship and residency and several years ago. Here I am now. So the one thing I can say is what led me to this point is a bunch of different interests throughout throughout time.

And what I have followed more so than anything was, was what I liked. And it primarily dictated what my next, what my next steps were. And the only reason I belabor this point is, uh, because I, I am a little bit of an outlier, given the background, you know, I don’t come from an academic pedigree, parents do not come from money, but, uh, here I am at Harvard and MIT trying to do things I think that can benefit people long after I pass away.

And, um, holding positions that I think my father never would have dreamed. And, um, I think for anybody who’s listening from a similar background, such things are possible, um, with a lot of hard work, some tenacity and a little bit of hubris.

Naji Gehchan: Well, Colin, thank you so much for sharing this. It’s so inspiring.

Is there one thing that you would give your younger self advice as you were going through, uh, through this journey that I’m sure, as you said, it’s built on hard work, belief. Is there one advice that you would give yourself? When you were younger.

Collin Stultz: Yeah, failure makes you better. And, and, and I think that, um, failure is, is very hard to, uh, to, um, understand and process in the moment.

But after the fact, I think, you know, you realize, um, what you could do better when you fail. And that’s really important. So I think we view failure as being a bad thing. It never, it never really is. But it’s hard to get anywhere unless you do fail. What’s important is learning from when you fail. And if I could have Sat myself down and told myself that a long time ago.

I think the road might have been a little bit easier.

Naji Gehchan: So now if we go through, uh, one of the topics you’re fond of and the topic you discussed and led this panel on AI as a catalyst for care delivery. Um, this is obviously AI is a very hot topic. We hear about it a lot these days. Can you share first your high level thoughts?

about artificial intelligence, specifically in healthcare. How do you think about that?

Collin Stultz: Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a great question. And I think a lot of this is, is conflated with what we see on TV, on science fiction shows, what we read in the, in the newspaper. We think about AI as being a series of, of techniques where you just press a button and then machines and algorithms do things that humans used to do.

Uh, well, that humans can do and I think in the health care for some things, that’s that’s that’s probably okay. But the health care, it’s not, I, I think decisions with regarding, uh, with respect to one’s health are typically done in an informed manner, taking into account the patient’s wishes and their value systems.

Things that are very hard for an algorithm to parse. So the way that I think that AI will, will function in the future in, in healthcare is that it’s going to provide important information that the healthcare provider can factor into their decision making information that leverages lots of data. So.

There’s, if you look at even the average person’s medical record, there’s tons of information there. Tons. Um, and so you can imagine the scale of information for those who have been ill and had many interactions with the health care system. Health care providers don’t look at all of those data because we can’t.

It’s too voluminous. But algorithms can computers not limited by large amounts of data, and it can process every piece of data without ignoring even the most the most minutia or the things like that might seem the most irrelevant and in that way, find new relationships and new new, uh, find out new things about patients that we would never have found out otherwise, because a piece of the data that we don’t look at.

And so I think that’s really the power of being able to uncover. hidden truths about patients, hidden facts about patients that are otherwise hard to decipher, and that the healthcare provider, that really is important for the healthcare provider, um, in, in helping them to discern what’s the right actions to take for a particular patient.

Naji Gehchan: So I think you’re, uh, you alluded to that. And if we want to go into a more use case, uh, specific, how do you see this playing in care delivery? specifically, and are you seeing some applications? I know your research is on this. If you can share some of those.

Collin Stultz: Yeah. Yeah. So I think one of the, so I’m going to focus on, I think I think it’s the most promising for the future.

And, um, it is a lot of care nowadays happens when the, a patient goes in to see their provider in the hospital or God forbid, they get admitted to the hospital with an acute, with an acute illness. And most of the of the therapies that are prescribed are when you’re sitting in front of a health care provider and they’re using the data right in front of them.

How do you look at that point in time? What’s your weight? What’s your blood pressure? What’s your heart rate? And what information they have up until that time in terms of what lab tests have you had with additional studies? But, but. But there’s so much of life that happens outside of one’s precise interaction with the health care system in a hospital setting.

And can you expand the information that the health care provider has to things that are at home? So, Information like, you know, how, how active are you at home? Can you climb up by the stairs or not? And can you record someone’s activity? How many steps they take throughout a day? Are they symptomatic at home?

What’s their heart rate at home? What’s their blood pressure at home? What’s their electrocardiogram? And I think we’ll be able to infer a lot of this information in an unobtrusive way in the future with our smart devices. So, um, case in point, there is a large, uh, Mayo has done a large study. in terms of detecting atrial fibrillation, which is a very common, um, arrhythmia that many patients have.

In particular, it’s very prevalent in patients with, with, uh, with heart failure and, um, from just from an Apple watch. So, you know, several hundred thousand patients have tried to detect when they have this bad arrhythmia from some, some such easily, you know, you don’t have to go into a hospital to get a 12 lead electrocardiogram.

You don’t have to be examined by anybody. It’s just by something rare on your risk. And so can we use similar types of data to infer more things? Can we infer things about the cardiovascular health? What’s the cardiac output? How much blood is your heart pumping per minute? And that’s something that typically you can only get by an invasive procedure by sticking catheters into the heart itself to make these measurements.

What are the pressures inside the heart? And can you use this information to predict are you going to be admitted to the hospital? What your potassium is, what your lab values are. I think we can get the same sort of information that you would get if you were admitted in the hospital and we could come close using simple sensors in the outpatient setting.

And so we like to refer to this as, um, um, like an inpatient information at home or inpatient, uh, uh, uh, monitoring at home. You get the same level of monitoring you would if you were admitted, but it’s in a home environment. And I think that’s a sweet spot for a lot of these things.

Naji Gehchan: This is great. And I saw recently Apple actually did get, uh, through the study, I think some approval, right?

Collin Stultz: Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah.

Collin Stultz: That’s right. Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: So, so you’re bringing this idea of expanding, I love how you framed it, expanding the information that you can get for in hospital patients outside of home and really leveraging just to have a more holistic view of the patient. When you are treating them and making a decision.

Yeah,

Collin Stultz: that’s right. So you could imagine if like the patient could be admitted to the hospital every day or come into the hospital every day and get information and titrate medications and make decisions based on that all from the in home environment. Because at home, you could get the same information you would as if they were standing in front of you in a hospital or in the clinic.

Naji Gehchan: So as you look into the next decade, right, and more of those connected devices, more data will be analyzed and ultimately having all our data records in one single place that we can probably use. What is the most exciting advancement in medicine that you think we should all be watching for the next 10 years?

Collin Stultz: It’s a great question and I, you know, I am biased. I’m biased. Right. Because I, I am necessarily biased to the things that we’re doing in, in, in my group. That’s the thing that I know most intimate, intimately. There are many things that are important. Uh, and just to be, just to be fair, um, we, uh, in a hospital, you could, you do a cardiac ultrasound and it looks at, it’s a very detailed study, just like an ultrasound looks at a baby moving the mother’s and the mother’s abdomen and pelvis.

You, um, can get an ultrasound to see how the heart is moving. and get a lot of detailed information about the heart function, the valves, and various structures in the heart. And there are data from a number of investigators. To suggest that you can get similar information from the type of, uh, from these, um, ECG monitors.

They are akin to what you get from the Apple Watch. Not precisely the Apple Watch or the Fit Beta, one of these wearable monitor devices. But you can, but from those simple signals, you can get similar types of information that you would get from an ultrasound study. And in our group, what we are working on is sort of the equivalent of digital twins.

For cardiovascular patients. So for a given patient, what can you infer from the electrocardiogram or the simple simple, uh, uh, signals? What are the pressures inside the chest? What’s the cardiac output? All of these things that are normally obtained from an invasive study in a hospital. Can you get them at home with just a patch monitor?

And can you use this to put on, um, to do experiments with patients? So what do I mean by that? So if I have two drugs. that I think, um, would be good for you to take. I could give you one drug, see how you do, take you off the drug, wash out, give you another one, and see how you do. Now that’s clearly not beneficial, right?

Because one of the drugs may have very bad side effects. Maybe toxic, but if I had a digital copy of you in the computer, then I could give that drug to one digital copy, the other drug to another digital copy and follow their trajectories in time to determine who’s going to have an adverse event and who’s not.

And so I can do these, what we call in silico experiments to come up in a reasoned way, the optimal therapy for a patient. And we’ve been putting a lot of effort into that. And I think if for some class of patients. So those certain types of hard failure, I’m very optimistic that we can do quite well in that endeavor.

So that, that’s the thing that I’m the most excited about, um, in the pipeline.

Naji Gehchan: This is phenomenal. Like having our digital twin, as you call them, to run those experiments instead of actually doing it on us. Um, how far are we from doing that? I know some companies, you know, They have research on, um, you have your research on how far away would I be able to test a drug as you said.

Collin Stultz: Yeah, I think, I think a lot of, um, work has been going on to try to make general digital twins. So that’s twins for any patient, irrespective of what their diagnosis is. irrespective of what their medical history is. And that’s a very, very hard problem. Many different diseases are in the textbooks. Um, and and if you’re going to try to do this, generally, you need a tremendous amount of data, a tremendous amount of high quality data to be able to do this well.

And it’s our premise. That if we can narrow this down to specific groups of interest, so we can do this for patients with a particular type of heart failure, can we do this for patients with particular type of diabetes, that we can make, that it lowers the data burden and allows you a better chance of building robust models.

That can predict patient trajectories, how a patient will do in the future over time and response to different perturbations, different medications, different interventions. So, so right. It is true. There’s a lot of work in the space. I think the work that’s going on in space necessarily because how the problems are posed.

are very data hungry, require tremendous amounts of data. Our approach is really a focused one and on specific diseases.

Naji Gehchan: So I love that because it’s a specific use case where you can gather the data you need and deal with it. So I have to follow up questions to this. The first one, um, I was born physician, I’m in drug development.

It is so hard. Up to now to predict once you get a drug, how are you going to react to it? So, um, I would love to get your thoughts about those in silico, the precision about it, how should you think about, and probably even getting it into clinical development, actually, instead of, uh, participation, but even as a predictor of response, as you said, and side effects that you can get, how do you think about, about it again, as science.

several times humbles us once it gets into human.

Collin Stultz: No, it’s good. It’s a good, it’s a good question. And the work is ongoing. So the precise, um, answer is still, is still stay tuned. But I will say that I think that one, all of the information that we have would be there, uh, in a patient’s genetic profile.

Their transcriptomic profile and the various tissues of interest, their medical history, what they eat every day, right, where do they live, their, unfortunately, where their, what their zip code is, all of, all of these things come in and affect clinical outcomes, and much of this information is encoded in, in the medical record, not all of it, but a lot of it, and their proxies for things like the genetic profile.

In the, in the medical records. So my sense is that there’s a, that there’s a lot of this at both the structured and the unstructured data that we’re just not leveraging as much as we can. It’s a hypothesis, admittedly, that all of this information is there. But if you can leverage it, um, leverage it, it is my view that you have a good chance of being able for, for important clinical problems.

You won’t do it for everything. I’ll do it for everything. But, but, uh, to give you a specific example, patients with heart failure, a certain type of heart failure called, uh, heart failure with reduced ejection fraction. There are four different drugs that we like to get all patients on. Not every patient can tolerate all four drugs.

So for the specific question of patients in this class, Can you experiment with these different four drugs and see who will tolerate it and who will not ahead of time? And I think the data are, are, are there and of sufficient quality to answer directed questions like that. So, so I think we can make progress, but like, you know, like most things, it’s for the right question.

And what’s the sweet spot?

Naji Gehchan: I love this. I want to go on the data piece. Obviously, everything is based on data, as you said, and the quality of data that there is in. And I can’t but think about the biases in the data. So I would love to hear your thoughts about this, specifically on the biases, the lack of data we have on certain ethnicities, on women.

You know what I’m talking about. So I’d love to get your thoughts about this.

Collin Stultz: Yeah, life is very unfair. Life is very unfair. And medical care is, unfortunately, suffers from some of the same, uh, unfairness. Um, as I, as I like to say, all individuals are biased. And I’ve said this many times before. Some people choose to recognize that they’re biased and mitigate it.

And some people ignore it. And, and I think, so I think we have to begin from the premise that there is bias in the data. Data are assembled and we decide what to, what to acquire by individuals who are inherently biased. And that’s again, as I’ve said on other occasions, that’s not a nefarious statement. I think it’s just a statement of fact.

So, um, realizing there’s bias, how do you mitigate it? I think the way that people ordinarily think about this is that they identify groups that have not benefited, um, like that others have. So women in cardiovascular care and in many other way, um, areas, people from underserved, uh, backgrounds. And you try to say for these algorithms, how do they perform in these groups that are traditionally underrepresented or where these methods don’t perform well.

And I think that’s a, that’s a necessary thing that we need to do. But the thing that is always in my mind. What groups are we missing? Because if you come to this with a preconceived notion about specific groups, are you missing, um, groups that you would not have, have, have thought of, right? So in the 19, uh, in the early 1900s, 18, I don’t know if anyone would have thought of black women as being a group.

That they should focus on. I don’t, I don’t think that would, it’s an extreme example, right? And I think things about mitigating bias would have excluded that group. And I just wonder, it’s always in the back of my mind about what are we missing that we are not paying attention to because we’re blind to.

So, for me, a part of this is not only coming into With it, with, uh, with some, with some prior notion of what groups are, are, we tend to have, we tend to be biased against, but trying to discover from the data, what groups we are not performing with, what groups, what subgroups are, are we intrinsically biased and learning about our bias from it.

So, I think we can try to mitigate the biases that we know might be there, but also try to discover new biases that originally might, might be blinded to it. And I think both parts of that. It tries to guide our work as well.

Naji Gehchan: This is so powerful. Uh, what, what you said, I always think about what groups are we missing?

This is. This is so powerful and so true. I’m gonna give you now, Colin, a word and I would love your first reaction to it. The first one is leadership.

Collin Stultz: So, my first reaction to a leader, well, I’m gonna, a leader is, the first word that comes to mind is follow. Because I think a leader necessarily is a follower.

Um, um, leadership in part is about listening to others And in a sense, following, or maybe following is the wrong term, but being sensitive and paying attention to the things that are important to them. So I said following, but maybe what I’m trying to convey is, is listening. And I think that’s an important part of leadership.

Um, you know, I don’t want to get on a political rant here, um, because, you know, it’ll get me in trouble. But I will say, in general, politicians, Right. Widely construed. Um, there are leaders, but they’re, you know, but listing is not part of their, of, of their, their portfolio. And I say that broadly and, and, um, for me, there are ports in many of them, many of them, not all, many of them are poor examples of, of leadership.

Naji Gehchan: The second one is health equity.

Collin Stultz: Hmm. So when I, when I hear health equity, the first one that comes to me, it’s a right. Health equity is a right. I believe it is a right of every individual to have good care that is the same as anybody else’s. And that’s, that’s a terse statement that’s categorical and that’s an easy one.

That’s an easy one.

Naji Gehchan: I certainly do believe in that too. The third one is Chad GPT.

Collin Stultz: Oh, let’s see. I don’t know what I want to say. It’s overrated. Overrated. So I, I think, uh, chat GPT for me, the, the really important thing, it’s an example of what some of this technology can do. What can we do with large foundational models?

Uh, you know, large transformer models, the types of things that they can do. Um, It’s, it’s overrated in the sense that we often believe what it says to a fault and in the medical space, there are numerous examples where it is incorrect. Producing, um, data that are, um, incorrect and harmful. So I, and I wish that others would sort of focus this as being an example of the types of things that the technology can do rather than focusing on chat GPT in and of itself.

Naji Gehchan: So before giving you the final word, I see a picture behind you. So I’m going to give you his name. Einstein.

Collin Stultz: Oh

Naji Gehchan: yeah. And I’d love your reaction to, to this.

Collin Stultz: So I love this. I love this quote. Um, I’m going to read it. It says great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. And I am certainly not in the, in the, in the sphere of, of, of Einstein by any way, shape, or form, but the sentiment is something that I, that I, um, I think is a motivation, as motivates, um, in that, um, and I’ve had, um, many, uh, a number of famous scholars.

Um, tell me about the difficulties that they’ve had in their career when they had a new idea and an inability to get funded and an inability to have people to listen to them. And it took decades later. And they were, you know, my old advisors, the Nobel laureate in chemistry, amongst other things. Other very famous engineers here on the MIT campus.

I think are examples of that. So that for me is a motivational statement from a mind that was much greater than mine.

Naji Gehchan: The last word is spread love and organizations.

Collin Stultz: What was the first one? Organizations and?

Naji Gehchan: Spread love and organizations. Oh,

Collin Stultz: I see. Spread love and organizations. Um, that’s very broad.

That’s very broad. I, I think, um, there are, I think about doing good things in the world. That’s what I think. And, and I think that things that aspire us to learn from one another, communicate, um, and, and, and engage in dialogue, um, about new things. Um, technology and otherwise is, is only a good thing for us overall

Naji Gehchan: engage in dialogue.

So important. Any final word of wisdom, Colin, for healthcare leaders around the world?

Collin Stultz: No, no, I think, you know, I think the healthcare people like, like you and, and, and, and like I, we dedicate our professional lives to the health of, of those who are sicker than us. And, and, um, and I think it’s a, you know, it’s, it’s, It’s a noble profession, and I think as long as we, as healthcare professionals, keep that at the forefront of our mind, we can never go too astray in doing good.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, Colin, again, for being with me today and this great chat.

Collin Stultz: Thank you so much. Hopefully I’ll see you soon in person.

Naji Gehchan: Hope to see you soon. Thank you all for listening to Spread Love and Organization’s podcast. More episodes summarizing MIT’s Sloan Healthcare and Bioinnovation Conference are available on spreadloveio.com and wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us to get most recent episodes and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement our world so desperately needs.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host, joined today by Patricia Boulogne a Certified Functional Medicine Practitioner, Coach, Chiropractor, Speaker, and Author. Pat has helped thousands over the last 35 years stop adapting their lifestyle to pain, and chronic problems by focusing on the whole person. The result is that her clients and patients, find out the WHY and the CAUSE of the problem, and identify the starting point: what, why, where and how to begin their health journey to live longer, better and healthier. Pat is the founder and principal of AskDrPat ~ HealthTeamNetwork, a company dedicated to skyrocketing your health, lifestyle, and mindset with strategies and programs that make sense, and help you age gracefully, think, move and feel better, and live longer and happier!

Pat, It’s a pleasure to see you again and have you with me today!

Patricia Boulogne: I’m really happy to be here. You know, I love to share knowledge and I like to help. I like to see people thrive.

Naji Gehchan: It’s great. It’s really a

Patricia Boulogne: great opportunity.

Naji Gehchan: People thrive, live longer, happier. I think all, everyone is eager to hear more about how to do that. But first I want to start with your personal story.

What’s in between the lines of your journey and becoming the doctor and business person you are now?

Patricia Boulogne: Well, you know, one of the things that happened is that when I was going to chiropractic school and I just finished chiropractic school, but I knew my father was not well before that he dropped out of a heart attack.

And that was really quite upsetting, you know, at the time because, you know, I always thought about like, what is it that I could have done, um, or what, you know, with all the resources and tools that I had access to, he didn’t take care of himself. He didn’t, um, you know, he’s. Occasionally, he smoked a pipe, um, and had a glass of scotch and, but he really didn’t take care of himself.

He didn’t eat well. And um, it came as a surprise to everybody, you know, because it was, as I said before, it was sudden, but it always made me sad because I kept on thinking like, oh, I could, maybe I could have done something. And that, from that experience, I decided that I was going to help other executives and entrepreneurs and business owners, you know, live their lives to the fullest and be as healthy as possible, um, moving forward, because it’s a lot, sometimes it’s a lot simpler than what we make it out to be, and it isn’t as complicated or feeling overwhelmed, because a lot of times people, when they hear the word medicine, they kind of shut off.

And they don’t want to know, they’re thinking like, Oh, I’m going to leave it to the doctor, you know, and I like to speak very simple language. I like to keep it simple. Um, go back to like, you know, know that the cart isn’t before the horse, the horse is before the cart when someone leaves with working with me, you know, and going back to basics because you have to know your foundational lines in those numbers.

They really count.

Naji Gehchan: So thanks for sharing this. And you’ve been helping, as you said, leaders be better, healthier, more fulfilled leaders, uh, for themselves and their teams by focusing on the whole person. Can you share more about that and what do you mean by whole person?

Patricia Boulogne: Well, you know, a lot of us, you know, we, we get so busy, you know, that we start sacrificing our relationships, our careers, and our life to move forward.

And we don’t have all the tools, but if you. know what to do. You can go into the game with more sustenance. Um, and what I mean by it, people used to ask me all the time, because I had a very busy practice on Cape Cod, and people used to ask me all the time, like, how do you do it? I see you here, you’re like going.

And I ate well, I had good thoughts, you know, and I exercised, I moved, I did some, I mean, You know, what I told people to do, I did myself, and what I realized by doing those simple things of, you know, you’re, you know, you’re mastering your mindset. Mastering your mindset is huge, no matter what industry that you’re in, but especially for your health, when you have that mastered and that you become a priority instead of putting everything else ahead of you, then you can even be, you know, you can have more consistency with being productive.

You know, you sleep better, think better, move better. You’re like physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, socially, and especially financially. You can make better decisions.

Naji Gehchan: So, I love this idea of mastering your mindset. Can we double click on that and tell us how to do it and what happens next?

Patricia Boulogne: Well, I always, you know, I think, you know, going from having something that’s a habit into a ritual is a key component and essential.

And so that, um, you know, the habit into the ritual, you have to be silent. What is that? So, I have a, um, You know, something that I give out when I’m, you know, doing webinars and things like that where I talk about like what are those five things that you have to do. And I would say when you first get up in the morning, bathe your body in water, not outside but inside also.

Every organ in your body will love you for it. Also take 20 minutes in the morning. Maybe you have to wake up a half hour earlier to do that, but have that, you know, like so that you have that downtime and you’re doing it as a meditation or a prayer. Whatever it is that you need to center yourself, pick nine things that you can focus on that day.

Three for your business, three for yourself, you know, and three for your spirit or your family. Um, and then, you know, write those down and do and make a, A nine before nine ritual. Um, and, you know, the last thing is, is like, you know, be kind to yourself, you know, take breaks. I just posted something today about, you know, taking a one minute break for breathing, you know, breath work is really essential.

And I’m thinking, wow, in just one minute, you can, you know, energize your body, you know, you can have a quick fix. And you can also fix that last two by the way. Um, and then you can also be more calm. And so if you’re more calm, then stress isn’t going to take over you. You command stress. You’re in the commanding seat of that.

So that mindset portion of that is, you know, having that positive mindset with a positive mental attitude and all these other wellness initiatives gives you the success that you need and gives you the stamina and also the energy to make it through even your longest day.

Naji Gehchan: I love those practical advices you’re giving us.

Uh, can you share now a little bit more about your book? I love the titles. I’ll let you talk about your book, the title, and what’s in it.

Patricia Boulogne: Yes, the book is called Why Are You Sick, Fat, and Tired? And The book is about discovering your health’s weakest and strongest links. The purpose of the book is to show and shed light on where to start your health journey.

It’s a workbook. It’s a guidebook. It’s an advocating tool. You can take this to any learned physician. The results from the questionnaire, then there’s, it’s the questions, there’s 11 chapters of questions, 12 11, meaning men, 11 for women, and in those questions, it’s like a deep dive survey, like a system survey for the body, so that, I have, I’ve had people say to me, as a matter of fact, you know, like, my doctor’s never asked me that, you know, but it really helps you identify where your weakest link is at.

Cause then you know where to focus your time, your energy and your money. And then you can reset your mindset, you know, and also your health at the same time and be able to move forward and keep moving forward and a consistent fashion.

Naji Gehchan: So is there any, you know, any magic formula, uh, I would say if you want to try to improve your.

Lifestyle and be healthier because this is the promise you bring to, uh, people you see. So I’d love to hear from you if you have any, uh, any magic formula for, for, for me and all the listeners here.

Patricia Boulogne: Well, my first advice and magic formula is to make sure you’re well hydrated and you need 50 percent of your body weight in ounces, you know, for that.

The other thing is, is that everyone’s so individualized and everything’s personalized. Okay. And on some level, what I do is very concierge, um, is that I look at each individual, you know, blueprint of persons, like, you know, where do you want to go? What do you got going on? Where do you want to go? And what are you willing to do?

You know, and if you’re willing to do something, there’s always something you can do. I have a, lot of, you know, tricks up my sleeve, so to speak. Um, and how to like, Oh, do this instead. Or, you know, I told somebody I was talking to last night in my last call just said, I’m having such a hard time sleeping.

And I said, take a little extra calcium before you go to sleep. Don’t take it in the morning, take it at night, you know, and take it a couple hours before you go to sleep, you know, and then Make sure you’re, you know, distance from blue light from the TV if you’re watching TV or your, you know, computer or telephone, you know, and then, you know, stop that and just have that peace of mind with that a good two hours beforehand, a minimum of 30 minutes.

You know, and then have water next to your bed so that you can keep the temperature in the room, you know, and those, those are like, little things that people don’t think about very much. Um, you know, or they live someplace where, you know, this morning I had garbage trucks going down the street at 530 in the morning and I thought it’s time to get up.

It’s time to get up and do my routine. Um, and you know, and like get thicker skin, like stop getting so upset about stuff that really in the big game plan of life doesn’t matter, you know, and so that I’m thinking, is this going to matter to me 5 years from now, you know, a year from now, then don’t worry about it.

And maybe for better sleep. Because there are so many people, sleep issues are an epidemic in this country. And so, as far as the sleep goes, if you can’t sleep, just ask yourself, what is it that’s really going on here? And if you can do something about it, get up and fix it. Do it. Get it over with. And then give yourself permission to go to sleep.

And if not, dictate or write it down because in less than eight hours, it’s still going to be there. It’s not going to go away and there’s nothing you really can do about it. So when you adopt that mindset that anything is possible and that this aspect of this can be, it can be put off till the next day, you already put it off anyway.

So, let’s just, you know, just like accept it, move on, keep moving forward, you know, and keep good thoughts. So, start the day with a, you know, good positive thought and if it’s, you start and you have, uh, it get, you know, waylaid or derailed, you know, you just gently, energetically push that thought away, cancel it and then you keep on moving on forward because you, it’s just like you’re.

The energy that you need, it will cost you 10 times more energy when you’re upset or stressed out than if you just stay calm and stay centered.

Naji Gehchan: Don’t sweat the small stuff. I don’t know if you’ve read this book, but I love it.

Patricia Boulogne: I do. You know, I actually met that guy in Boston once. time. Um, when I used to live downtown Boston, um, we’re talking, this guy goes, Oh, I’m going to go see him right now.

And this guy knew a friend of mine in the building that was in, knew him. And I said, I want to meet him. And so he goes, we can come with us, you know, come and have a drink. And then, you know, he goes, we got something else we got to do, but we’re going to meet for a drink first before we go to dinner. Like, all right.

I meant, I never say no. That’s one of my big things. Never say no to a great invite. Yeah. Ever.

Naji Gehchan: That’s great. Uh, so it’s really, uh, you’re giving really great tips for us to take care of ourselves. And I love how you frame that it’s, uh, because we hear a lot about making it a habit, but you’re pushing us to start thinking about making a habit.

a ritual. So can you give us a little bit more what you mean by that?

Patricia Boulogne: Well, let’s just take, you know, the, there’s a, a thing, a rule called the 2190 day rule. And the average person takes anywhere from 18 days to 265 or 54 days, about eight and a half months in order to make a habit into a ritual. So it’s like, it’s a non event.

So you’re just get up and you go do it. And so, If you look at the 20 90 day rule, or the 21 90 day rule, if you do it for 21 days, you know, then you can do it, whatever that is that you are successful with for 21 days, then you just do it for an additional 90 days. And so if you do it the additional 90 days, you’re at 111 days, which is more than halfway through.

Um, and so it’s just, you know, it’s just being consistent. Everything is, you know, it’s like consistent. I use the word consistent a lot, because when you’re consistent, you get better results. And also, if you have an accountability buddy, You know, somebody that’s just like, you know, like, well, I have a hard time walking more than a block.

Well, walk a block until you can walk farther, walk as fast as you can, as far as you can for as long as you can, just get out and move. You know, my second patient in clinic was a 92 year old woman, and she was a little scared. She was a good old Southern Belle girl from Atlanta, Georgia, because that’s where I went to college.

And I asked her when she came in, I’m thinking what’s a 92 year old woman coming into a chiropractor for and wanting to get advice about how to do it better. And I’m thinking she has so much that she can teach me. And so I asked her what she did for exercise. And she said she lived in a neighborhood that was turning so she would take her Dixie cup out and go water all her plants in the backyard.

And I said, well, how many plants do you have? I thought she was going to say, like, 20 or something like that. And she said, Oh, you have 150 and I’m going like, you know, but and what she did is she just made it into, you know, exercise and put the mindset that that was exercise for her, which helped her stay in better shape, you know, and keep on moving because her line was, Dr.

Payette with his beautiful Southern accent, if you don’t move, you’re going to die. And that is just so true.

Naji Gehchan: So thinking about now more leaders, do you see anything different for us managing teams and organizations and how to ensure a better health and lifestyle for our teams and also for us? Like any different advice you would give?

Patricia Boulogne: Well, you know, you’ve got to look at what, you know, when I look at somebody, what I do is I look at, what do you got to do in a day? You know, and it’s just like, what’s the most important thing you have to get done so you’re not doing emails the first thing in the morning, or else you’ll get sidetracked, you know, and all of a sudden it’ll be 2 o’clock and you haven’t done anything.

And so it’s, it’s taking a look at that, like the, the eating, you know, proper diet and nutrition is, you know, is so important, um, proper exercise and getting up and moving so you’re not sitting down so long, you know, there’s studies showing that sitting is not a really good idea. And then, you know, getting enough sleep or even taking a nap or doing the breath work that I talked about today in my post on LinkedIn.

It’s just a simple, simple, simple thing that you can do. And there’s a lot of simple things that you can do that you just don’t sometimes think about. And then for like leaders, you know, to have that harmony and that balance and being able to think better, you’ve got to really have a clean diet. And you have to really be a little bit ritualized, like how much sleep am I getting?

You know, and not sweating the small stuff as you well pointed it out and at summation of that. Um, you have, you know, you first have to identify where you’re at though and that’s a big problem. A lot of people think that like, Oh, I’m okay, I’m healthy. You know, we’ve all heard the story about the person leaving the doctor’s office and a couple of days later dropping dead of a heart attack and they were given a clean bill of health.

You know, it’s a lot of times people can be very thin, but have a lot of fat around their organs. It’s called VAT fat And, or visceral fat and, you know, and then looking at like, you know, like, what is it that’s like leaders need, like, you know, like, what is it that, you know, what’s an easy thing for you to do on a regular basis so that it’s, you know, that you can have, you can think better, you can feel better and move better.

You have those tools with you, you know, so you’re always driving a Ferrari as opposed to driving a jalopy and for a body. Putting that, um, you know, and because you can, you know, delegate, leaders are really good delegators. And, you know, if you know that you like, I need this, this, this, and this, you can delegate it out so that it gets done for you.

And then that way you’re not consuming extra time doing something that is somebody else can do for you in that aspect.

Naji Gehchan: So I’d love to give you now a word and get your reaction to it. The first one, the first one is leadership.

Patricia Boulogne: Well, leadership, you know, I think that, you know, when I, when I talk to leaders and talk about leadership, I, you know, think about my first words that come to my mind are parents.

Because parents are children’s first leaders. They mimic you, and by the age of five, they get you down to a science, and wrapped usually around your finger, their finger. And so, you know, I look at, like, leadership. I look at, you know, when somebody can be who they say they are, and take the appropriate action to implement, to go, going forward.

And when somebody does that, and keeps their word, especially for me, How I feel is that I can honor that, and I respect that, and I can follow that.

Naji Gehchan: The second one is mental health.

Patricia Boulogne: Well, do you know that May is Mental Health Month? And mental health, we, I think a lot of times we have a problem with it, because in the United States, for instance, we don’t, Um, we’re never taught how to eat and the gut brain, um, connection is huge and a lot of mental health like the anxiety, the depression, you know, the, the antsiness, a lot of the times that comes from the foods that we’re eating and the miscommunication from the food to the brain and we’re eating poor foods, we’re eating fast foods, we’re letting that, you know, um, create, change how we.

respond in relationships and we don’t sometimes don’t realize people who are hypoglycemic sometimes are really irritable and or somebody’s really sick. They’re really irritable and you don’t really know that, you know, so that’s what, um, you know, the mental health part of that is like, that’s and the 1st thing I.

talk about in mental health is you gotta hydrate, you gotta eat well, you know, you have to exercise, you gotta create movement. I had a patient who was very depressed and when I was on Cape Cod and um, her husband says the only time she moves is when she comes to my office. And um, I said, well, what motivates her?

She goes, she likes you. And I said, well, tell her to come in Monday through Friday, you know, because, you know, I’m going, if that’s what it takes for her, you know, maybe a little bit at a time that can be reversed, you know, and, and I go in, in how that one thing, sometimes that we have stuff that happens to us when we’re growing up, that we hear something the wrong way and we keep on sabotaging ourselves and keeps on hitting the wall and keep on hitting the ceiling and not being in a free flow fashion.

So we all know what. Being in our vibe is like. You know, when you’re on your game, you’re moving forward, you know, and it’s everything is that all the pieces of the puzzle are fine in the places that you want to have them in. And when they don’t, it can be overwhelming. And even where work would be normal, in those instances, work feels like you’re being overworked.

And it’s just, it’s just like a different perception, like how do you change that? And it changes with mindset, one thing at a time.

Naji Gehchan: The third one is, Einstein’s time.

Patricia Boulogne: I love Einstein’s time. You know, I was driving on 495 in Boston and I got pulled over by the police. Well, actually I pulled over. They pulled in behind me because I thought I was having a problem.

And I was listening to this book that talked about Einstein’s time. And I wanted to take notes, so, and I knew I had enough time that I could listen to that chapter again and take down keywords and, um, and possess it. And what Einstein’s time is, like, when you’re in your vibe, um, is that, you know, things just flow for you.

And, you know, you don’t have, like, you don’t worry. You don’t have that level of stress you’re able to, like, you know, uh, Be in one with your situation. The day that I was listening to that, I was covering a doctor’s office up in Lawrence, Massachusetts, and, um, the one I walked in, I was telling this girl the next, the day before that, and I said, you know, what happened to that?

You know, so and so and so and so, cause I worked in this office before. And, uh, she said, well, how many people do you want to see? And I said, fill me up. And so I walked into the office and it was the standing room only when I got there at 9 o’clock in the morning. I went, Oh my God, I’m never going to get out of here.

And I decided to take that thought, get rid of it immediately, cancel it, you know, not look at my watch. Because if I looked at my watch, I was going to go back into Newtonian time and just do it. And I finished, I was like 15 minutes after the hour, but I, you saw a significant amount of people in a four hour time segment, like around 55 or 60 people.

It’s, you know, and it just like, it just flowed. I didn’t, you know, think, I didn’t think about it, you know, and it was enough. Where families, it was more of a family practice. So you had the mother, father, you know, and the brothers and sisters all jammed in this one room that thinking, wow, and just do it, get over yourself, you know, and do your best job that you possibly could do.

And if you run late, you run late, you know, it’s not the end of the world. But that’s Einstein’s time when you’re in your vibe.

Naji Gehchan: The last one is spread love and organizations.

Patricia Boulogne: You know, if you, you know, there’s a, I recently heard this song called, um, I am woman and, um, and it talks about, you know, when you put out what you want, you know, to the universe, the universe provides for you.

And when you’re in your vibe or in Einstein’s time, that happens all the time, all the time. So if you put out love. And you share the love that you’re, that you have within you, because we all have, we’re all geniuses, you just have to learn how to express it, and that whatever you put out, you, you, it comes back to you.

And you know, that’s, you know, when I, when you say that, that’s exactly how I feel about no matter who I meet. Uh, and someone, uh, coined me, um, the other day and we decided that I should, uh, market myself as a, um, as a grace magnet. And uh, they said, cause you just have that knack, you know, you have, you know, something happens and you get, you get it taken care of and, um, and I’m really resourceful, too, and I’m not scared to talk to anybody.

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom, uh, Pat, for healthcare leaders around the world?

Patricia Boulogne: Say that, the beginning part of that again, please.

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom? for healthcare leaders around the world?

Patricia Boulogne: Well, I think, you know, one of the things that when I was in chiropractic school and our schooling was very similar to, you know, Western, like traditional medicine doctors, except for we didn’t do the prescription part of it.

And, you know, I would look at people who are standing, you know, you know, treating people and I think you need to lead by example. And you need to, you know, so I think that healthcare practitioners should do exactly what they would tell anybody else to do, you know, and they need to be their own example and going forward because then you get people who are, you know, who can say yes to you, who respect you and who could trust you, you know, and if you’re going to have be a trusted authority, you better be your word.

And you better like, I want to see you in action. You know, when I see you in action, I’m going to, it’s like if it doesn’t, it doesn’t resonate to me, you’re the last doc, you know, you’re the last doctor or the last professional I’m going to see in that industry, I’ll go find somebody else. But I think it’s really important to be able to trust somebody and to be able to, you know, be able to ask questions and, you know, not talk, you know, when you go in to see them, not talk about their dog, whatever is going on with them, unless you have like, you live next door to them or, you know, and the such.

So I think that that’s important.

Naji Gehchan: I love it. It’s walking the dog as, as we say, you know, I’m being a physician, I definitely relate to what you said. And also you talked about leadership with your children. Uh, it’s, if you try not to walk the talk with your children, it’s even, you get immediately the feedback, right?

And it’s, well, you didn’t do this, and you’re telling me to do it. Why? So I think it’s, you know, amazing to these two, I love it.

Patricia Boulogne: Yeah. It’s just like, my girlfriend’s son was very incredibly intelligent, and, um, so he would ask me every once in a while when he was even, he was three years old, he could read.

Um, so he would ask me to read books to him and so I’d read and I didn’t feel like doing it. So I’d skip pages and he goes, Auntie Pat, you forgot the part about, remember, you know, go back a couple pages. You know, you forgot that. Did you make a mistake and turn too many pages at once? I said, sure did, Sam.

Never do that again. You know, he caught me every time. You know, but I think we, I think we need to spend time, you know, with, you know, children and they’re, you know, and developing their, you know, consciousness. I mean, this same kid when I was in, when I lived downtown Boston was sitting there and he was looking at his mother’s a doctor.

His father is, is a, a significant massage therapist in Boston and he was sitting there and he said, Oh my God, your spines. I had one of those spines that hung on a hook, you know, my off in my immediate office at home and he goes, Oh my God, that guy must be in so much pain. I said, why is that, Sam? He goes, look how crooked his sacrum is.

He was five years old. So, but he, he knew body parts. He, he was way ahead of the game.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much for being with me today and for this great chat.

Patricia Boulogne: I appreciate it. I really enjoyed, I really enjoyed being here. It was a lot of fun and it was informative.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host for this special episode in partnership with ESCP Business School and its specialized Masters in Pharma and Biotech Management. I am joined today by Jessica Leygues, General Secretary of Women’s Cancer Institute. Jessica is an engineer by training from AgroParisTech, and started her career at Alcimed consulting firm where she spent eight years developing new healthcare markets (biotech/medtech) for entrepreneurs, start-ups, SMEs and large corporations as well as for the public and semi-public innovation sector, including the French Ministry of Research, research institutes, competitiveness clusters and knowledge transfer centres. Strongly committed to optimization initiatives for healthcare systems, Jessica then joined Celgene, where she was responsible for a partnership hub aimed at developing the healthcare value model. In April 2020, the midst of COVID pandemic, Jessica became the CEO of Medicen Paris Region, Europe’s leading health cluster, where she redefined the strategic positioning of the group in order to launch concrete reindustrialization initiatives to accelerate growth in the French healthcare industry and boost national sovereignty in order to recover from the COVID-19 pandemic

Jessica, It’s great to have you with me today!

Jessica Leygues: Hi, thank you very much. I’m really honored to be with you today. Thanks.

Naji Gehchan: Can you first tell us more about your personal story, from engineering to redefining healthcare at a country level, what is behind your inspiring journey?

Jessica Leygues: Hmm. Um, when I chose my, my orientation when I was younger, what I wanted to do most, of course, like a lot of people now is have a true impact on the world.

So when I chose the life sciences path with this agro biotech engineering school, I truly believed what we would focus on would be sustainability and so on. But At that time, it was still really focused on productivity and the values were not the ones I was looking for. So at the end of this higher education, uh, background, I really didn’t know what to do to be the most, uh, useful as possible.

So I started. As a consultant, uh, in the biotech, uh, sector, and it was really interesting because I had the opportunity to work with, uh, entrepreneurs, uh, with, uh, institution leaders, uh, with, uh, healthcare authorities, with, uh, um, industrial companies. So it gave me a sense of where You could have impact and where to start when you want to, to truly, um, spread values, uh, from within organizations.

And it was really inspiring to see, uh, that in France, that, that there was a lot of, uh, experimentations. And, and, and, and people organizations that want to change the system. Uh, so I had the opportunity to test what it is in the public sector, in the private sector and healthcare, obviously with a really, really, uh, um, a comprehensive, uh, sector to, uh, to, to, to, uh, to change things, uh, as a patient perspective, as, um, uh, a whole system perspective, uh, in, uh, in terms of, uh, macroeconomy.

So yeah, I never got back to anything else.

Naji Gehchan: So it’s through this incredible diverse experience, right? You talked about consulting, you’ve done biotech, you’ve done pharma, you’ve done government, nonprofit now, uh, is there like a key leadership thread that you’ve been taking with you across all those different experiences?

Jessica Leygues: Yeah, I would say there are many, uh, key learnings that I got along the way and, and maybe to start what is really important for me, uh, is. Where you can have the most impact is not necessarily when there’s 300 people in the room. And this is what I learned, uh, going from a big, uh, group to, uh, 30 people team when I was leading, uh, the medicine Paris region by your cluster.

Uh, it’s. Yeah, what stroke me is that when you have one on one discussions or really really small teams, um, a way of working and thinking this is at least for me and this is maybe a way of of uh of thinking and working this is Easier maybe sometimes to have a power to change lives and to influence people uh to have the opportunity to really Work on, uh, profound and deep, uh, change in people’s life, way of thinking and way of working.

So I would say today, uh, and today, uh, it’s even stronger for me because we are beginning from the start a whole new project. This Women’s Cancer Institute is from scratch. It doesn’t exist yet. Uh, so I’m building a whole new team now, and this is a great opportunity. Opportunity to me to have the opportunity to really work on, uh, personal life and, and, um, uh, professional life balance, for instance, and, and, and truly get to know people to get the best of them.

And, uh, and to help them, uh, get bigger and bigger, uh, in a, in a federative project that this is really something important for me. I, I, I meet a lot of people that think. Managing more and more people is a, is an achievement is an objective, but that’s not my objective anymore. I would say smaller teams are sometimes a bigger way to, to move forward to have an impact.

Naji Gehchan: So I want to, I want to go there. I want to go on two things. First, if you can tell us, uh, what, what’s your, what you’re trying to achieve in the women’s cancer Institute, as you said, you’re just starting. So I would love to, uh, for our agents to learn more about it. And from there, tell us how you’re thinking about building your team.

What are you looking for while hiring people? How do you build your team for you to be able to achieve the purpose of, of this Institute?

Jessica Leygues: I would say it’s all about values, but maybe I shouldn’t say that too loud because in France, you know, it’s all about the curriculum vitae and your background and your, and your.

Um, you know, degrees and so on, but actually when I look at CVs, I don’t, I barely look at the, the, the, uh, higher education background. I look at what people do in their personal lives, their engagement and so on. And this gave me. A sense of what they are what they truly are. Um, So again, i’m not saying it’s what everyone should do or it’s it’s enough But that’s where I start and for me, it’s really important.

And now we are starting this new team and really I they just Uh arrived a few days ago So I will tell you in a while if it’s working But this is really all about values and and shared share an objective a common objective You And another thing really important, I think, is, uh, it’s quite obvious, uh, you, you’ll tell me, but fight for what you believe in, and, and I know sometimes it can be really, really harsh because, uh, there are so many struggles, so many big challenges we are facing now, and we are all feeling guilty because sometimes we are not able to, to go to 100 percent of what we would like to put in place, uh, if we, if we, Think about environment, for instance.

Uh, we are not all able to change 100 percent of our lifestyles. Uh, but I truly think small steps are important and, uh, a step by step approach is really, really, uh, impactful. Um, and this is a small water drops that feel oceans. So this is also some, something I’m trying to work on with the teams. I, I’m looking to, to work with is really it’s you.

Um, to, to get happy with small victories and to work on concrete, small projects. Another thing I learned is that when you have, um, a strategic work plan and you know where to go and you’re really frustrated because people can’t always follow you, uh, it’s my, one of my key learnings is that you really need to stop and to help people Get on board and to listen to them and to help them, um, Getting into it and and feeling that this is a common project and again to do so you have to work on really Concrete things really small projects We all have Really high expectations and ambitions that we want to go there at once uh And and this is and i’m saying this but this is still something where i’m working on because sometimes it’s still frustrating things Don’t go fast enough never but on a human perspective, this is so Intense and so rich to stop and to talk to people and to learn from them and to include everyone’s vision into your yours into your vision and uh Bye Actually, you can’t do anything if you don’t, if you don’t do that.

Even though you succeed, if you’re by yourself, nothing works. So step, small steps, inclusive way of thinking, participating way of, of decision. I think this is, uh, what I learned, uh, along, along this short wait.

Naji Gehchan: Well, these are incredible gems you’re bringing. You know, you talked about small steps, you talked about inclusiveness in the decision making, um, and really this idea that you said, like, fight for what you believe in.

So along those lines, I’d love to know if you also go through your COVID experience, right? Like you had to manage through tough times, you have to manage on reindustrializing a country, sovereignty, et cetera. But if we go on the leadership aspect of all this, sometimes I feel like we, people can be hang on the idea they have in mind and fighting.

This is why I wanted to take what you said, like fight for what you believe in. Am I assuming correctly that you’re thinking about a general belief, a general purpose that you want to achieve, fight for it? and really get those small steps done for you to get there. And how do you think about this while managing team with setbacks?

I imagine during COVID times you had a lot of setbacks from different parties and then sometimes beliefs will go down or we’re never going to achieve it. How do you deal with this on a daily basis with a supreme, like a very moving environment that was COVID for you?

Jessica Leygues: This is a really good question. And even more accurate that I got, um, to the, um, uh, medicine management in April 2020.

So at the beginning of the COVID crisis. So had, I had never seen the team I was about to, to manage. And as you said, in a really moving and challenging environment where needs and expectations were just crazy from day one. But even though external issues and challenges and business model, uh, um, questions and positioning in the ecosystem and relationships with, uh, institutions and our members and so on, we are crazy.

I. Spent a lot of time internally with the teams because this this This organization is non profit as you said uh, it’s an it’s it’s something you you join because you want to Help and you want to be useful and and the team I joined at that time was Lost because the business model, it’s still, even though it’s not nonprofit, you have to pay people and it’s a 30 people team.

So you have to find ways of sustaining a certain amount of revenue. Uh, everything was changing so fast. We were wondering if we could hold on a nonprofit, uh, model, or if you were becoming a startup. You know, and it was really deep as a, as a questioning for, for, for the team, for the, uh, the values and the, the, um, the objects, uh, itself of the organization.

And to me, it was really important to spend. more than half of my time with the team to understand how we could build something that that would be really, uh, differentiating and impactful on the outside. And this was at the time quite, um, new because all, all people that succeeded, that, uh, preceded me, uh, didn’t Choose this way of working.

They didn’t spend much time inside. So it was a it was new and we built Values we built what we wanted to do with this organization and I think this is one What what really explains what we were able to achieve over the the next years and during uh, the covid crisis during which we had to again to understand, uh, a few thousand of of uh, You Players Expectations and so on and find the best compromises and solutions to help the whole ecosystem to grow so again What helped me is listening to these guys.

They were very different people, of course coming from different areas and Younger and and and older and so on but I learned from them and the the idea I I built on what we should achieve was theirs actually was it was really a Co a co construction And and I think this is So that’s something, um, that drives me over overall, because if I sum up the objective of the project I’m leading now, the Women’s Cancer Institute, actually, we’re talking about basic research, translational and clinical research, uh, care, But it’s all about a holistic approach, how to better understand what really matters for patients.

Um, what is their lives, their situation, their psychosocial environment, um, and how we can help them as much as we can. But, On their definition, and I know in the health care system, it’s really difficult because, of course, everyone wants to do their best and think they know what’s best for people, but it’s not always what we think.

So it’s all about including patient feedback, um, to build really personalized answers to every individual. And this is why this project is so important to me. And this is why we called it the Women’s Cancer Institute. It’s not the Breast and Gynecological Cancer Institute. It’s all about people, in this case, women.

But this is really, again, a matter of connecting to people, listening to their needs and co building what we can achieve with them. not thinking we think what we know and what we think is better than theirs.

Naji Gehchan: I, I love it. And I’ve, I’m sure you will have a tremendous impact that is needed for patients and women specifically, uh, within this Institute.

It’s, um, it’s so important. And I totally relate to what you said, like several times. We think we know what other one versus actually listening. And hearing what people want and act on it. So I love that it’s the core and heart of what you will be doing. Jessica, I want to go now and give you a word, and I would love a reaction to it.

The first one is leadership.

Jessica Leygues: It’s funny because these days I’ve been thinking about how leadership is close to Being a parent and how to think about health care as I just mentioned and I think and I heard Um a u. s. Psychologist a few days ago. I’m sure you know her It’s becky kennedy and she said for her a parent and a leader Was someone able to connect to to himself herself and connect to other and it was a definition of Sturdiness and I really connect it to this definition.

I think this is really something that that defines me as well um, because again, I think our strength is is is this Synergy this this ability to learn from others to better understand how they work what they can bring to the world to A family, an organization, a society, uh, and it’s just the same thing with patients.

So I would say leadership I could of course I could mention exemplarity and blah blah blah But what I really want to focus on today is really this this Ability to connect to others But also to connect to yourself. And this brings us back to what I mentioned before, fight for what you believe in. You really have to, um, to be aligned with what you say, how you act, what you represent.

And I think a good leader is someone who managed to do that. And it’s not easy, of course. And not everyone has the chance to find, um, the right place to do that. It may be a lifetime, uh, journey.

Naji Gehchan: Yes. And you talked about this alignment, right? Like the heart, brain, and practically the hands, right? Like that will make it, that will make it work.

The second word is innovation.

Jessica Leygues: I could spend days on this word because, uh, definition is different from one context to another. I think I will repeat myself, but for me, how, how. Translate, uh, discoveries into progress. It, it’s what we look, uh, we, we are looking for when we talk about innovation, and it’s all about, again, including the users into the whole process of innovation.

There are people with really bright minds and good ideas and the best intentions in the world that. Develop solutions without including, uh, the potential users. And we see that a lot in healthcare and specifically in digital healthcare solutions. And it has been a really strong fight for me when I was leading, uh, the medicine bio cluster.

Because, yeah, it doesn’t work. When you don’t, when you don’t work with people for these same people. So I would say it’s all about co construction and the ability again to connect and to understand what are the true unmet needs. Sounds obvious, but we see every day that even in 2024, it’s really not easy.

Naji Gehchan: I fully agree. And it’s like less construction these days than building together. But you’re here. This is why we’re here, right? This is why we have leaders like you and, and several of us trying to make it work. The third one is women’s health.

Jessica Leygues: Again, a lot, a lot of things to say. Um, Maybe I would start with a few, not figures, but at least, um, pieces of information. What we notice is that the, um, the number of, of death by cancers decreases more slowly for women than for men.

What we notice as well is that, um, in when, uh, when a cancer arrives in a couple, it happens a lot that the couple doesn’t survive. And it’s six times higher when the woman has a cancer. Of course, I’m talking about, uh, it or couples. Um, so these are a few examples of what we wanted to look further into, uh, women’s cancers.

More specifically, if I go back to women’s health more broadly, there are cultural challenges from the design of, uh, clinical trials to the way we look at symptoms of a, of a disease, um, uh, the way we look at the pathology. The how you how you use treatments everything is based mainly on men tests, uh, we know much better how a man reacts to a stroke or or any Uh a high number of uh Not funny, uh, events.

So this is a lack of chance for women because they die more because we are not able to help them as fast as we do for men. Uh, so this is again, something we have to tackle. And I don’t know that the exact figures of the world, but in France, it’s really, really high. There are cultural reasons. There are, uh, factual reasons.

I mean, even from the preclinical tests, uh, on mouse models, Uh, it’s male models we use most of the time. So we would have to change a lot of things. Um, and, and we have a lot of examples also of things that are moving quite slowly, but still they are moving. If we talk about. Endometriosis, I don’t know how to say that in English.

Um, for years and years, we thought that that women were just complaining about usual stuff. And it’s quite recent that we realized maybe it wasn’t only that. Uh, so, so this is a really a way of looking at things. And again, now this topic is on the table. I can see everyone is looking into it and I’m sure things will, will be able to evolve.

more efficiently than other topics. When you think about the fact that a few decades ago we thought babies didn’t hurt.

Naji Gehchan: It’s

Jessica Leygues: just crazy when you think about that now. Okay. But at that time it wasn’t. So we have to change the way we, we think of the way we look at it. It’s really a cultural matter. And this is why this Women’s Cancer Institute is quite a, comprehensive project because it involves as well prevention, health literacy, the way we tackle fake news.

So it’s really a broad approach, not only about how to better understand, um, uh, the cancer development and the, uh, the spatial temporal evolution of tumors, for instance. It’s not only that, it’s really much, much, much broader because we have to change the way We think and the way we act, even though we don’t realize it at all.

Naji Gehchan: Yes. And I love how you’re framing it, right? It’s really a social change that you will be acting and that we all need to act on versus just gathering data or fixing, you know, a disease. It’s, it’s beyond that. It’s really the way we look and think about things. And, and it’s interesting not to open the very hot topic of AI these days, but obviously, as you said, like, Everything is based out of data for white male.

Of a certain age, right? I’ll stop there. I don’t know if you want to. Yes.

Great. The last. No, please go ahead.

Jessica Leygues: No, no, it’s just about to mention that, um, again, AI. There are a lot of hurdles to be able to. Make the most of it and in france particularly and we were talking about social issues and cultural issues That could be another Dedicated podcast though. I won’t be long on this matter.

But again understanding what what what people uh fear about it Would be really helpful to unlock a lot of things in France at least Because when you see that people are able to share their data on any Channel, uh social media and so on but as soon as you talk about health Nothing is possible. I think we We haven’t Tackled the issue the right the right way yet

Naji Gehchan: The fourth word is spread love and organizations.

Jessica Leygues: I think we quite covered the topic actually from different parts, but it’s all about being yourself and connect to others. And I’m not sure love is the word I would use to, to talk about all of this, but actually we talked about kindness, care, deep interest, true listening, relationship, trust, respect. So what, what is it if it’s not love?

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?

Jessica Leygues: What comes to me first is the, is the Pareto distribution. Another thing I had to struggle with and to get over my frustration about was the fact that you cannot bring everyone with you. Uh, and actually it’s not a problem if you think about the 20 percent of early adopters and people that will be able to follow and to try and to experiment, uh, and then build on success stories.

That’s actually a quite good way to go. And for healthcare, I would say it’s also the way to do because there are so many difficulties in the global healthcare systems in terms of time, in terms of sense, crisis for different healthcare professionals types. And I would say work, experiment on what’s, what’s, what you truly believe in on a, on a, on a team team.

Scale on a hospital scale and then being able to show how it works and how you can spread it I think this is always a um Yeah, something to try and and go by even though it’s still frustrating on a day to day basis for me So I’m saying that to myself actually

Naji Gehchan: Several times what we reach we are applying it and trying hard to apply it for ourselves It’s it’s Well, thank you so much again, Jessica, for being with me today and this incredible chat.

Jessica Leygues: Thank you for listening to me and I hope it was useful and I’ll be happy to hear the hundreds of people you, you interviewed and, uh, and, and please continue doing what you do because this is so important.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much. It’s a, it will be beneficial for several of us listening to it. More episodes in partnership with the ESCP Business School are available on spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host for this special episode in partnership with Boston Biotechnology Summit, a bridge to collaboration and innovative synergies between healthcare stakeholders. I have the pleasure to be joined today by Mark Namchuk. Mark joined Harvard Medical School in January 2020 as the Executive Director of Therapeutics Translation. In this role, he works with HMS scientists to identify and harness basic insights into clinical therapies, creating an infrastructure that advances the School’s scientific discoveries along a translational trajectory while training the next generation of therapeutics investigators. Mark joined HMS after a 24-year research and development career in the biotech industry, working in a number of areas that included drug discovery, translational science and pharmaceutical development. In 2015, he joined Alkermes as Senior Vice President of Research and Nonclinical and Pharmaceutical Development. Mark had previously held a number of senior research positions at Vertex Pharmaceuticals over 17 years, including Senior Vice President of North American Research and interim Global Head of Research.

Mark, it is great to an honor to have you with me today!

Naji Gehchan: Before we dig in your masterclass during the summit about Optimal Roadmap from a New Idea To a Helpful Medicine, I would love first to learn more about your story and how you became this influential leader and pioneer in biotech?

Mark Namchuk: Sure. Uh, I always, from a scientific standpoint, what I first fell in love with Was how chemistry and biology interacted and and more specifically how biology seems to use energy in the most creative ways to do biological processes or get things thing one to stick the thing to.

And after finishing my PhD in enzymology and doing a postdoc in immunology, uh, I got my first industry job, uh, and about two years into it, this was when I was at Cubist, uh, I was made a project lead for my first antibacterial discovery project and really fell in love with the process of drug discovery, um, really from a scientific perspective, in order to do it well, you need to understand Chemistry, biochemistry, biology, pharmacology, properties of molecules, medicine, all of the pieces and how they fit together.

And every job I took since then has always had a little bit of that piece still in it. Uh, so as I, uh, left Cubist and went to Vertex, uh, started out at the bench and then was there quite a while, uh, and ended up in a more senior position and really had the opportunity to see Vertex go from a company that had its first drug, uh, all the way through to where it ended up today.

And that journey, uh, all the way along really kept to those same principles of. A love of what applied science and drug discovery can do, how can we do that better, how the pieces fit together. Uh, and then similarly, when I went to Alkermes, uh, different therapeutic areas, first time I’d worked in CNS drug discovery, uh, really passionate about trying to improve, uh, healthcare in the area of serious mental illness and addiction, and still very passionate about that area.

But a different, um, stage in my career. I came in as a senior person, wasn’t sort of building my career all the way through. So an opportunity to take a lot of the lessons I’d learned earlier in my career and, uh, decide how I wanted to build the research culture there and a chance to, rather than grow along with a company, but maybe put a stamp on something in the way I’d like to build it.

Naji Gehchan: So I want to go there because in the first chat we had together, we talked a lot about leadership, the culture we build and how this impacts science and ultimately the patients we serve. So you you’ve done it, uh, growing in a company, starting a company, you’re seeing company kind of being built and then going to the next stage.

What is your main leadership learning as you’ve done it and how you think about leadership, building a biotech science company?

Mark Namchuk: Yeah, I think I would touch on something you said in your intro. I, I’m a big fan of this term servant leadership. I think the first thing I’ve always felt is very important is to remember that drug discovery in particularly in the earlier phases through phase two is a deeply creative enterprise.

And everything you should be doing should be fostering your ability to support that creativity. So what are important components of that? A, uh, the people who you have on the team. Do you bring in people that A, have, uh, it, especially in Boston, we have this wellspring of extraordinary scientific talent, but there are these other pieces that are very important too.

How well do they think across disciplines? How much do The people on the team love working with that individual. Um, B, I think we all are familiar, particularly those of us that have worked in industry, there’s timelines and there’s milestones and all these pieces that can be important. You can’t let them, you can’t let the process completely hijack the creative enterprise.

And as a leader, sometimes your job is to fight that a little bit. And then, uh, I would say, lastly, uh, one of the things I always tried to do, and, uh, hopefully did well at times, but held my leadership teams to, is a couple of basic principles. The first is, Your job as a leader in of an enterprise like this is to be the coolest person in the room.

When bad news comes, your job is to also be the person that takes all the stresses that the company might put around that bad news on yourself so that your team feels free to still work creatively and do the jobs that they were hired to do. And B, how approachable are you, uh, from a scientific perspective?

I think too often you have, uh, you have scientific leaders that, uh, feel like their job is to be the smartest person in the room. And I always felt that, uh, That my job was to, to, uh, with conscious intent, not be the smartest person in the room, surround yourself with people who are brilliant and know that your job is to conduct the symphony, not necessarily, you know, ultimately, as leaders, sometimes you make the final decision, but you’re really trying to give everyone in the room a chance to play their instrument well, contribute to the beautiful music and feel like their part is being valued and seen.

Naji Gehchan: I love this example and image, right, about being the conductor and making sure that everything at the end, the creation of all those individuals and people, we’re doing it as, uh, as a larger team. Uh, and as you build this one key component in drug discovery development, I’d argue in any company, uh, is how you build this so that people can stay creative.

And deliver, because as you said, you touched on the timelines, certainly we need to deliver on timelines. You’ve lived also companies. You said from the very first idea to them becoming commercial, how do you combine all this? I know that you talked about servant leadership, the notion of trust to be able to make it happen.

Any, any big learning you would say to us as leaders and operation operational leaders. to keep this happening?

Mark Namchuk: Yeah, uh, maybe two things. Uh, maybe starting at the team level first, uh, one of the, I was really influenced by the book Quiet. Which is a book on introversion and, uh, many scientists are quite introverted.

And I think we’ve all been on teams where you’ve got the classic, uh, type A personality that dominates the room, et cetera. I’m a relatively type A person. So I find myself having to censor myself at times, but what are you doing in that team environment when you’re running the team to ensure that that brilliant quiet voice is heard, right?

At the right time, and there’s simple things you can do that, for example, is, uh, for folks that are, uh, That need a bit more time to think deeply about a problem, get in contact with them two days before the meeting, cue up what the topic is going to be and not necessarily have this as a debate exercise where in 30 seconds, you have to articulate your point of view, building a culture around all those ideas being heard and valued structuring meetings.

So there’s places where you genuinely intervene and those quiet voices are heard. I’ve found to be the most productive way. To make sure that all the ideas that are on the table to foster creativity. Uh, I would say the second piece, maybe a level up from that is to understand that when you are the leader of a project and a goal has been set.

When you’re going to take the responsibility for that goal, but sort of let the team off the hook. They’re 1 of the things that I really believe in is, uh. That ultimately for a scientific enterprise, you have control over the quality of the experiment. If you’re doing really creative science, you have no control over the outcome.

So as, as you get into a more senior role in a company, your salary, your bonus. And your responsibility is to the corporation. You now have, if you run a larger group, many ways that you can be successful. I can have project one work. I can have project two work. I can have project three work. That’s not the same as if you’re only running one project or if you’re running a component of that project and giving the people in the team the opportunity to continue to do good work and understand that if, even if the project doesn’t turn out the way you hope, but they did a work that they’re going to get an A is one of the most important ways that you can ensure that people continue to take risks in the work that they do, as opposed to try the easiest things.

And then I would say lastly, and this is something I talked to the students at Harvard Medical School a lot is, um, I think of biotech in particular as an argument between science, medicine, and business. And it is at times an argument. I, I think any of us that have been in senior management have been in times where everyone is working in accord and in times where it’s a relatively vigorous debate.

Um, I think if you get into a senior role like that, Part of the art is knowing whose turn it is to win. So if you’re the head of research, do you know enough about clinical development to know that for this project, it is now the time for the clinical development group to win in the argument. And that means you maybe don’t do some things you’d like to do or for the company as a whole, it’s time for the financial argument to win.

And so I think from a leadership perspective, training yourself to be bilingual enough that you can have a good conversation with the head of clinical development or the CFO to come to a good conclusion is really important, but also knowing when it’s your turn to push. That it’s researchers turn, for example, more of my career to win for lack of a better way of putting it, finding that balance is very important.

And I think that getting those right is how you can balance the necessities of the company at times, but not necessarily have the corporate goals washed down to your entire team where they feel like suddenly they’re responsible for the stock price. I think that can be a very dangerous way to make people take on a pressure, which honestly, as a leader, that should be your.

Not necessarily theirs. They should be creatively going on to do great science on the next experiment.

Naji Gehchan: Those are incredible insights. Thanks for this, uh, Mark. There’s a lot, a lot to learn from, uh, from what you said. And if I take them now from the leadership aspect that you brought, uh, into what you will be sharing and what you shared, uh, during the summit, really the roadmap and the optimal, uh, roadmap from new idea to a helpful medicine.

So there is. A lot. And as you said, so this is why I love starting with the leadership aspect of things because we hear about all those innovation, but drug development, discovery, development, and bringing it to market is hard. We’re constantly humbled by all those discoveries that never gets there and few of them getting there.

So, I’m eager to hear a little bit about your thoughts on what is the optimal roadmap and how can we bring those ideas from ideas to patients, actually.

Mark Namchuk: Yeah. And I think, uh, uh, I’ll start by saying, uh, I, I have a phrase that I use a lot to build on what you just said is, is, uh, biology will treat you, teach you great humility.

And so understand the world that we’re in, no matter how well planned we’ll have. Uh, I think that in my current role at the medical school, uh, a mission I, I, I want to take on. And I think is a value is to understand the impediments. Between an initial insight at the bench. To getting into phase two, where we can really ask that question in a human being, is this a medicine that has benefit and is well tolerated enough to be used?

I think you can divide many of those impediments into a few buckets. One thing that we’ve tried to do, Uh, within the therapeutics initiative is to bring expertise that would more typically be seen in the pharmaceutical industry in drug discovery science and have that scientific expertise available at the highest level to our P.

I. S. within the H. M. S. community right from the beginning of their idea. So if you are thinking about translational work, Can we partner with you as translational scientists? You’re a brilliant P. I working at the cutting edge of biology in this particular area. You’re interested to see what might happen in terms of drug discovery with that idea.

Let’s make that easy to do. Let’s bring in scientists that you’re going to respect because that are scientific imprimatur. Let’s have a science first conversation. As opposed to this is what you’ll need to do to get an investment opportunity. Let’s really focus on the science first and see if those initial steps can be done more efficiently.

I think the adjacent component to that that I’m very interested in doing is rethinking academic industry collaboration to make the transition from that initial idea into more hardcore drug discovery more efficient. One way to do that Is to work on collaborative structures where scientists from a company, for example, and the academic scientists are working hand in hand very early in the process.

And when benefiting from both sets of expertise to try and get to the best world that one can to, um, be able to, um, move that idea more efficiently. So, and then at the philosophical and business level, I think that we need to put more emphasis on the, how well a partnership facilitates high quality work, moving from the initial idea to phase two as a primary goal.

Maybe even when that might make the financial terms a little different. As opposed to the financial terms as being the primary goal, which sometimes can happen in these negotiations, particularly depending on what the stages of an asset and I think there is a lot of work that can be done to really harness the benefit of scientific minds on both the corporate side.

And on the academic side where everyone is doing what they’re really good at. So I’ll give you, let me give you like one concrete example that really bugged me during the COVID pandemic, but I think is, is a great example where there are things that, uh, we’ve done in industry for decades that are not as well inculcated into academia yet.

So, uh, if you’ve ever worked in infectious disease and you’ve worked on an antiviral or an antibiotic. You know that in order to have a clinically effective agent, you need to essentially shut down all replication of the pathogen. So for antivirals, and this has been shown for SARS CoV 2, for hep C, for HIV, if you take the, uh, adjusted for free fraction, IC90 plus potency of that molecule, it’s a reasonable predictor of clinical outcome.

And yet, for numerous, I’ll go as far as saying thousands of publications that came out from the academic world during COVID, they would use the IC 50 as the main driver of both efficacy and therapeutic index. And because of that mismatch, a lot of the work we did in drug repurposing was never going to work.

There’s an example where if what we knew on the act on the industry side in terms of drug discovery was more broadly disseminated in the academic community, I think we could have done more productive academic research during COVID. And those, that’s just a simple example of the secrets we don’t share with each other very well, but that the science in the middle could be so productive.

Uh, and so I think that’s really what I’m, part of what I’m going to talk about at the conference, but also I think a bit more of a call to action to rethink the process. I think there’s a lot of benefit to everyone involved, but to build it around scholarship and scientific advancement.

Naji Gehchan: Great. Uh, you’re talking and focusing really on the collaboration that we can do between academic partnership with, uh, with industry. You’re mentioning also about a different way of thinking on investments, right? Like where to take the risk. You’re pushing towards, if I understand well, and this is what I would love to dig a little bit deeper, um, early on starting to think about the phase two trials and how you’re getting to clinic and probably take a higher risk.

If I understood well, in the beginning to be able to keep being creative and building the drug that will get to clinic faster? Am I, am I getting it the right way?

Mark Namchuk: I’ll

Naji Gehchan: clarify

Mark Namchuk: it a little bit. I think that, that what I’m really advocating is, uh, if you’ve got a biology idea, even at the very beginning of an academic, in an academic setting, there are certain Experiments one can do that are more translational, that if you have a capability within the university and people that live that world, ask those questions earlier.

So in a way it’s getting to some of those hard questions very early in the process. Academia will never do a translational work on the scale that industry does. It’s just cost prohibitive and skills prohibitive, but are those first framed in a way that if the answer is yes. All parties, including a partner, subsequently, would see value in that answer.

And I think it comes back to being informed by what questions will eventually be asked as you go to the clinic. So I, I, I know your background, Nadja, you and I are fellow travelers in some of this. I always like to think about a project in the early phases in my industry days from designing the proof of concept trial.

To economize on the experiments you were doing to decide when the drug was ready to go. It’s set your pharmacology strategy. It’s set your non clinical development strategy. It’s set whether you had to invest heavily in a biomarker and find a responder population versus you didn’t need to and I think that same sort of thinking going to be applied in maybe in a less comprehensive way in academia.

So, uh, I, I, I think it’s less about, uh, the economic de risking. It’s more about the value of trying to find scientific synergy earlier in answering those questions in a different order than we have traditionally.

Naji Gehchan: Marc, as you were, as we were talking also about those, um, efficiencies as you frame them in those partnerships. I couldn’t, but you know, like these days everyone talks about AI and some use cases, right? And you gave this example about COVID, IC50 versus IC90. How do you think about AI in these things? You know, and I was, as you were describing the COVID example, I’m like, yeah, well actually if data is proprietary and we’re not putting it out, probably we wouldn’t have even know, like AI wouldn’t have picked it, but I’d love to.

Got to get your thoughts about use case of AI in drug discovery and improving efficiencies in the system.

Mark Namchuk: Yeah, um, I think a lot of the best use cases for AI are probably taking place in companies right now because they’re a gonna have a much deeper bench of data. That they can go back to an AI, like any computational approach is going to be best informed by best information.

So I, I, I can say that, um, a lot of work is being done in small molecule generative AI. That’s quite impressive where you can do more from an initial crystal graphic structure. Do a good job of a comprehensive early chemistry campaign. And I think that work is just getting more and more productive. But I would go back to, uh, it’s best informed by having a real bonafide hit on a real bonafide structure.

A question I’m asked a lot of times is, uh, now that we have alpha fold. Do we need all of these other iterative methods to do structure biology and things and the feedback I hear from my corporate colleagues are doing this every day is alpha folds. Okay, but it is a relatively low resolution. Apo structure so a little at this in its current incarnation.

Not that informative from a design standpoint. Now, will it get better with time? Sure. But I think we still have to go back to having a better partnership between the advances in AI in the experiments we run. And I think that partnership, but in the academic setting, one of the things that I, um, I would like to see more of is, uh, Really advanced computational people working hand in glove with people that have deep expertise on the drug discovery side.

So the experiments are designed and then fed into the most advanced models. Let me give you another concrete example is there was a lot of work used done during covert around, uh, repurposing to identify Targets that could be useful targets for covert infection based on large screens of of either the existing pharmacopeia or pharmacologically active molecules.

And, uh, often the mechanistic conclusions that would say, oh, this particular receptor is important for covert replication. We’re flawed because the screens were run at very high concentrations of molecules that are highly molecularly promiscuous. So that there’s nothing wrong with the AI and the computational people are brilliant.

And, and so, but what was fed in, uh, one specific example I, that I was, uh, uh, was some work I was involved in was, uh, seeing that, that, uh, receptors that were more traditionally involved in. Uh, psychiatric medicine like serotonin receptor, et cetera, we’re coming up in rescreening with molecules that hit those receptors, but at very high concentrations of the molecule, if you look at the pharmacologic profile of those molecules at that concentration, there are 100 targets that could be interacting at that concentration.

So it’s a simple example, but I think it’s where we have to think about. Goes back to the symphony example, how do we work together in experimental design to marry the advances that we have in machine learning pertinent data to the question being asked. So, I, I would like to see that done better. I think that’s held back having this, like, aha moment and true drug discovery for AI.

The advances are extraordinary. Our ability to create data is extraordinary. Um, but I, I would like to see it better married, I guess, would be my point of view at this point.

Naji Gehchan: So, Mark, I’m gonna now, uh, give you a word. In this section, and I would love your first reaction to it, whatever it comes to mind. All right.

First one is leadership.

Mark Namchuk: Uh, my reaction to it is I don’t know that there is such a thing as leadership as a proper noun. I think for it to be real, it has to be a blend of, of you and your authenticity and how that melds to the work that you’re trying to lead.

Second one is innovation. I don’t use the word anymore.

Naji Gehchan: Tell us more.

Mark Namchuk: Yeah, I, I, I, uh, it gets used so often in so many different contexts. I don’t know what to do with it. And so, uh, I, I will admit this is more of a personal thing. I have a bit of an adverse reaction to the word now, because so many things get categorized as innovative, and the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

So, uh, I, I think I would, I guess if I was giving a one word answer, I would say overused. In the sense that, uh, I don’t know what it means.

Naji Gehchan: I love this reaction. If I take the word war that is also already used, innovation, breakthroughs, like all those words, the buzzwords that we have and really apply it to medicine and what we talked about, drug discovery and development and really outcome is bringing them to patients at the end and changing their lives.

Is there one that you’re most excited about for the next decade? Is there one technology? I want to say one innovation, but I’m afraid not to say the word innovation.

Mark Namchuk: Yeah, I would say no. I think as a, maybe a broader principle is, uh, if I look back to when I started 30 years ago, we largely had small molecules and the dawn of protein therapies as our only two, uh, methods.

for manipulating disease biology to get a good clinical outcome. That, those days are done. And so now there is a plethora of tools. They’re at varying levels of maturity. And I think for the first time we can now look at a disease and say, let’s pick the tool based on the nature of the disease, as opposed to say, we have to make a small molecule to treat this disease.

And I think the potential for that Is enormous. Uh, I think all new technologies have their impediments. So, for mRNA or RNA based therapeutics generally, uh, nucleotide based therapies generally, delivery is a big issue. But I think over time, that will get better and better and better. I don’t know where the speed of light for that will be, but I don’t bet against the progress.

And it just opens up an entirely different way of looking at a medicine. Like it, I’m not so sure we have to be concerned about drugability anymore. Because we have this whole argumentarium of ways that we can go after something at the expression level, where the only thing it has to stick to is the messenger RNA.

And that, that I’m very excited about that. That opens up enormous areas that we could get into that just were not available two decades ago.

Naji Gehchan: The third word is health equity.

Mark Namchuk: Yeah, I think that, uh, a responsibility all of us have to live into as best that we can, uh, probably as a discovery scientist, one of the places where I often feel like I can do the least good in the sense that, uh, the biology leads you to different areas that, uh, something looks like a good target.

What you’re going to take to the market is dictated by developability and commercial viability. So I think that an area where, uh, in my current work, I think a lot about it, and it comes back to the health equity principle, is there are areas of enormous Unmet need where, um, they’re just not great areas, uh, economically, but perhaps we can have more of an impact at the academic level.

A specific example of an area that is in enormous need of I’ll use the word innovation. Uh, but, uh, advancement, uh, is addiction therapy. Very difficult business. Generally speaking, uh, the, uh, the neurobiology is very complex. Yet, uh, if you take a look of places where addiction is most prevalent, it’s hard to not come to the conclusion that economic disparity in some ways is overlaying with our ability to get good care for these sorts of things.

And so I think there are, uh, disease areas that. Um, we should really put concerted efforts behind. I think they can disproportionately affect our most vulnerable and we can have, for example, have a cancer moonshot. And I think that’s a very worthy thing to do. But we have a pretty good system for bringing cancer therapies to patients.

It works quite well. I think the shame of it is our system for advancing medicines. Often fails worst in places where the economics, uh, and the people who would be best served just don’t have access to that medicine. I mean, uh, infectious disease is another great example where, uh, a lot of, uh, a viral infectious diseases are, are going to be most prevalent and most devastating in less prosperous countries.

And so how do we square that up again with my background being more as a discovery scientist? How do we get better discovery science aimed in those areas in a credible way that it actually eventually becomes a medicine? This is definitely something I’m thinking about in my academic career.

Naji Gehchan: Um, certainly in my work, as, as you know, I’m also constantly thinking about this and also my, where I come from, my upbringing is certainly something that I’m very attached to.

The last word is spread love and organizations.

Mark Namchuk: What was, I’m sorry, what was the first word? Spread

Naji Gehchan: love and organizations. And organizations.

Mark Namchuk: Uh, so, uh, boy, could we use a little more spreading of love these days. So I would just say bullion, let’s do more of it. I think that there, there’s a, um, there’s a, uh, a debate going on in our society now that I think would be well served To maybe embrace that philosophy that you brought up.

So I spent 24 years in the pharmaceutical industry, and I can think of no industry that is more roundly criticized yet. Uh, if 1 takes the economics out of it and takes a step back. I think a lot of the work that’s done in the medicines that are produced are unto themselves pretty virtuous and can help a lot of people.

So I think from an org, when we think about organizations, and we think about our critiques of organizations, and that can be government, that can be different companies, that can be different corporate entities. I think the organizations themselves need to think a little bit more about their sustainability.

Through the lens of how they benefit society and not just the pure money of it. And there’s, I, I’m actually kind of a, uh, a fan of the whole principle of conscious capitalism, where capitalism is very efficient, but it can have a heart. And when it does, it’s often a better business. I don’t think you have to separate those things.

And, um, I, I think that. One thing I’ve always believed and have been saying a lot lately, unfortunately, uh, just given how loud our arguments are these days is try and find the 10 percent of truth in any criticism. And then maybe take the moment to go back to the critic and thank them for that truth. And that’s just not our reaction these days.

And so I think that, um, we could all present company included do a lot better at trying to see the, the virtue in what someone’s bringing up as an idea or an advancement rather than only the critique. Maybe that’s a better way to find some mutual express on our way to trying to be a little bit more loving.

Naji Gehchan: Try to find the 10 percent of truth. I love it. And the criticism. Well, any final word of wisdom mark for healthcare leaders around the world?

Mark Namchuk: Sure. Uh, well, first of all, thank you for having me. This is fun. And I appreciate the opportunity. I think the, um, one thing I would say is, uh, what ultimately we do when we do it well, is a valuable and virtuous thing.

And I think when we’re focused on that. Uh, you know, if you go back to the old George Merck quote about being patient focused 1st, uh, I think we ultimately are both better, uh, more productive people. We give more back to society, but we create followership of principled people that are in things for the right reasons.

So, I think part of being a servant leader is making sure that your mission is appealing to the kinds of people that you want to have in your organization. So, I think, uh, all healthcare leaders. Have an obligation to explain to the folks that work for them the, uh, ethos of what they do and why what they do, uh, is, has, uh, value in its principles.

And I think that often is, uh, is going to get you a lot more buy in than the dollars and cents arguments, which we have to manage, but I think are often not as compelling.

Naji Gehchan: What a great way to finish our conversation. I could spend hours chatting with you. It was a real pleasure. Thank you again for joining me and being with me today, Mark.

Mark Namchuk: Thank you again for the invitation. It was a pleasure.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform. More episode summarizing Boston Biotech Summit can be found on our website or your preferred podcast app.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host for this special episode in partnership with Boston Biotechnology Summit, a bridge to collaboration and innovative synergies between healthcare stakeholders. Matthias Lambert a Senior Scientist in the division of Genetics and Genomics at Boston Children’s Hospital, and Instructor in the department of Pediatrics at Harvard Medical School. Matthias identifies as a patient-scientist, navigating life with a rare congenital myopathy. His research focuses on studying the mechanisms that contribute to the pathogenesis of rare muscle diseases including his own genetic condition. He is actively engaged in pioneering efforts to advance cutting-edge therapies for these conditions. His work is supported by prestigious grants from the National Institutes of Health, the Muscular Dystrophy Association (MDA), and the AFM-Telethon. In 2024, Matthias plans to establish his own independent research group.

Matthias, it is great to have you with me today!

Matthias Lambert: Thank you. It’s a great pleasure to be here as well.

Naji Gehchan: Before we dig in drug discovery and development, your passion and your focus during the summit, I would love first to learn more about your story and how you became this incredible leader and pioneer in research.

Matthias Lambert: So I was born in France. So I’m from France. Um, I went to science school. pretty quickly. So, um, after graduating from high school, um, I went to university in Lille. So it’s in the north of France. Um, I did a bachelor, master and a PhD, uh, on science, uh, and said physiology. And I was studying the muscle, uh, skeletal muscle.

And then I went for a postdoc. I went to Boston in, uh, 2017. Uh, I joined the lab of, uh, Luke Anker. Who discover the gene for, uh, the dystrophy in the, in the eighties. Uh, and so I’m working on different neuromuscular disease such as muscular dystrophy or, uh, al Myopathy. But more about my story, I would say I was a, a patient before being a scientist because I was born with a, a Lin Myopathy, which is a very rare, uh, neuromuscular disease.

Um, and so for 25 25 years of my life, we didn’t, we didn’t know the genetic cause of this is because I was the only one in my family, um, with this disease, very rare symptoms. And so when I was, uh, doing my PhD in France, I also had my physician in the same lab. Uh, so basically my physician became my colleague at the same time.

And at some point, you know, I was, you know, when I was studying the skeletal muscle, I, I, I went through, different papers that describe my symptoms for rare conditions. So I told my physician, you know, we should look at this gene. And basically what we did is, uh, took a blood sample and three months later the results came back.

And basically say that the gene that we were looking at was, uh, the good one. Uh, so it’s, this gene is called TPM3. And, uh, right now, I have established my, also my own research direction in the lab here in Boston. After my PhD, also working right now. on this DPM3 gene. And this is basically the, the basis of my future lab.

So yeah, this is my, my story.

Naji Gehchan: Wow. Thanks for sharing, uh, Matthias. And it’s, uh, it’s great advancement from discovering the gene to now opening a lab. Hopefully you can, uh, target that. So we’re going to talk about this. Uh, and I’d love first to get your high level perspective on drug discovery from a patient scientist.

As you would describe yourself, um, how is it different? And how do you think about drug discovery?

Matthias Lambert: I mean, this is different because we are not only scientists. Uh, basically the discovery that we’re gonna, we’re gonna make, they’re gonna be for patients, but also for us. Um, and so that’s the perspective is, and the, I mean, the perspective is very different because you wake up every morning and you say, maybe the discovery, the discovery that I’m going to make today, it is going to change my life.

Uh, in, uh, like, uh, health, uh, health wise. So, this is very, very important. That’s, I would say, the first, the first thing. Uh, and then, the, the, the drug discovery, uh, area, I think, right now, maybe, a little bit overlooked because we have a lot of gene therapy right now in the market, you know, we have CRISPR and I think it’s also a good time to, to, to recenter also our focus on genetic discovery because we have maybe more than 10, 000 FDA approved drugs that, for example, were not tested in my disease.

And so basically we have maybe drugs on the shelves that have maybe an effect on rare disease. So as those compounds, we know the toxicity of those compounds. We know that they are safe. Uh, they are already being done some development of those drugs. And so it would be very easy to, uh, repurpose, uh, those drugs to, to another condition.

Naji Gehchan: So as you were talking about it, you, you spoke about CRISPR, you spoke about probably screening the drugs that already exist. We know the talks about them and are they effective? Can I ask what are you most excited about from a technology standpoint that you think will literally change and accelerate drug discovery, uh, of, of this specific CPM3 gene, uh, and myopathy, but also in great diseases?

Matthias Lambert: I think I’m very, so I think there is two sides. I’m very excited by the gene therapy, uh, area because I think CRISPR, it’s an amazing tool to basically change the mutation, correct the mutation, the mutation you want, you can correct it. And we know how to do it in a dish. But right now it’s very difficult to get this correction to the cell in the body to basically deliver this compound, this technology to the muscle.

And so this is one thing that is very difficult right now. And we still more, I would say more development, uh, for the, I would say for the skeletal muscle area, for the neuromuscular disease area. Um, so that’s one thing. And the other thing is about CRISPR is right now. When you correct one mutation, it’s like I would say, like, uh, a personalized treatment because for a same gene you can have different patients with different mutations.

So basically you will need different design in your CRISPR to, to, to make it work. Um, so that’s, that’s one thing. So the second side I would say about drug, uh, so I’m talking about small molecule, it’s you can maybe find a small molecule like a common pathway across different patients. So it will be less personalized treatment, but like I would say a more common treatment across a population of patients.

And I think I’m very excited by combining both. So, having, uh, small molecules that could help the, for example, the delivery of the CRISPR in the muscle, that could be one thing. Or, decrease the toxicity, also, of CRISPR, that could be also another thing. So, I think The next step for me, as I see, is to combine a small molecule with a gene therapy.

There will be, you know, when you think about, for example, HIV, you have, it’s usually a tree therapy. You have three compounds that do different things. And so gene therapy is going to be the same, you’re going to have a cocktail of different drugs, different technology that will help each other to reach the same goal, which is to correct the mutation and to, to, to restore the pathology.

Naji Gehchan: So as you think about this, what are for you the biggest challenges you’re facing for you to be able to get there?

Matthias Lambert: Uh, money, funding, first, uh, people, second, uh, for, for example, for me, I would say on this disease, there is maybe five or six lives in the world working on my, on my gene for this disease. So there are only a few people working on it.

So the development is very, is, uh, slow, very slow. Uh, and also on a patient perspective. It’s even more slower, I would say, because you also, you have two different timeframe, you know, like one year for a patient is very long, you know, when in one year you can have your, like the series, you know, you can have, uh, the, your data that, that can, you know, be worse, you know, after one year, but for a scientist, one year, it’s nothing, you know, because one year you can get funding and you can get some preliminary data.

So it’s, It’s also a different thing. So first, yeah, coming back to, to your question. Uh, yeah, the, the, the, the people, the funding. So, I mean, both are, you know, together, you know, uh, if you don’t have money, if you don’t have money, you cannot, cannot hire people working on this. So yeah, that’s, that’s the main issue right now.

Naji Gehchan: And then, um, in money, I imagine you’re talking about funding, like having the funds for you to be able to do the research, build, build the company, have the people who can help you out with this. And I, uh, I really loved your framing between time perspective. So I want to talk more about this because as you said, for science, probably a year is nothing, but from a patient’s perspective, a year is a lot and a lot can happen this year.

So as you’re both, On this, uh, on this, uh, specific disease, I’d love to hear how you balance this and how you would push us actually as healthcare leaders to think about rare diseases, because it’s certainly one of those aspects that is hard to crack. Uh, and I would love to get your thoughts, what we should do.

Matthias Lambert: I think. Like, patients should be involved in the research, uh, that would be one thing, you know, like, uh, can be, you know, sometimes I go to conferences where, and you have both patients and scientists together, you know, and I think it’s a great thing to, to hear from the patient, you know, what, what do you need, what is the most, Like what do you need right now, you know, and sometimes you can be surprised, you know what they say, you know, sometimes for a patient just for him to just to eat, to eat alone, you know, on his own, uh, before being able to work, you know, uh, in my disease, for example, you know, uh, I can work, but the, the main issue is the, the breathing, you know, my diaphragm is very, very, very weak.

And during the night, you know, I have a, I’m, um, uh, sleeping with a by uh, a bipep. And so it’s a it’s a life threatening threatening disease, you know? And so I would like to have a for example, the technology uh, therapy that will target the diaphragm, you know, let’s say. So that’s one thing, you know? So when you can refocus your science to a particular goal, you know, that could, that can also meet the goal of a patient, you know, that’s very important, I would say.

And then you have to work with Industry, uh, and of course, like agencies like the FDA to, to accelerate the path, uh, to have, you know, right now we’re talking about end of one treatments, uh, things like, like that. But again, NF1 treatment will treat one patient. And so, you also have to have this balance also in what you want to do, you know.

You have to think about, you know, a path that can, that can work for every patient. And this is, I think, very difficult right now.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks for sharing this, Matthias. As you think through the next steps, with, so now you know which gene, you have some ideas about targets, what you want to do, how are you thinking about clinical research and drug development in this space, and the next steps after this huge discovery that you’ve, you’ve done in the

Matthias Lambert: So, so after I, um, I knew, I knew the gene, so I went to Boston working on condition with sclerodystrophy, and at the same time, uh, I talked to my boss and said, okay, I would like also to work on my gene and, you know, on my disease.

And at that time, there were no, no model, uh, no animal model, no cell, uh, Cell models about, about this disease. So what I did is to make a mouse model. And the cool thing about it is this model basically recapitulates, uh, the, the symptoms and the phenotype that we see in patients. So that’s, that’s one thing.

Um, and so with this model, so you can do one thing is to better understand the disease, because right now, you know, as I say, it’s a very rare disease. So we don’t have a lot of. patients in the world, which means we don’t have a lot of samples to study. So it’s very difficult to study right now this disease.

And so when you have a model, you can spend more time to study the disease. You have more samples, you have more materials, you know, to work on it. That’s one thing. And then the second thing is to treat. Uh, so you, my idea is to, and this is what I’m doing right now, is to develop different strategies to, to, to rescue the phenotype in this model.

And once I will get, I would say, a solid, uh, data and good preliminary data, that’s my goal will be to, to meet with industry and say, can we do something, you know, can we develop something that can go to the patient?

Naji Gehchan: Uh, yeah. Great. Um, it’s really massive work and great job that you are doing. I’m glad you’re advancing the science.

And again, as Uh, you’re passionate about it and you’re doing moves and it’s important to follow the steps. And I know, uh, the timelines are longer than you would ever hope and we all would ever hope. But, um, I’m really glad to see, uh, where you’re going with it and wish you all the best for it. Uh, I would, I’m gonna pivot now, even though hard to pivot.

Uh, but I would love to give you one word and get your reaction to it. The first word is leadership.

Matthias Lambert: Uh, leadership, I would say maybe leadership in science. Um, leadership in, um, I would say something pretty new or so, like, uh, inclusion in science, I would say. Talking about inclusion and again, we are talking about the patients being included in the research, but also being having like people with disability, you know, included in science.

And I think it’s very important to have right now this People, you know, working in, in this field because for the past 10 years, this is, so it’s, um, there is, um, a paper from, uh, that that’s been published and seeing that basically scientists with a disability are the only minority that has decreased.

over time in science, and you have a very few, just very few, uh, scientists with disability, uh, funded by NIH in the U. S., and I think, again, it’s very important because, you know, you need to have a leadership from institutions, from agencies, uh, in this because when you have, uh, the patients. I went to science.

This patient had to face so many barriers, so many challenges. And so, I like to say that patients, it’s a very good, it’s a very good problem solving. Uh, because we have to solve so many problems. Problems in our life because, uh, because of our health condition, this is, I mean, just for me, you know, when I go somewhere with a wheelchair, you know, sometimes I have to take a different path because you can have a step.

And so, you have to solve a problem, you know, and the, you know, you have to solve, like I was saying, life, you know, like, uh, um, in, in, in the moment. And so I think you need, we need to have more people like that in science and we need a leadership. We need people from the top that say, okay, let’s do this. Uh, we need to create a path, we need to include more, you know, we need a task force about this.

Uh, I think it’s very, very important. Uh,

Naji Gehchan: that’s such a strong reminder, uh, Matthias, for all of us. The second one is innovation.

Matthias Lambert: Uh, innovation, uh, I would say now innovation is going pretty fast. I mean, every year you hear about a new technology, you know, a new, a new innovation. Uh,

I would say that in the field right now, the innovation, to be honest, like the last 10 years has been CRISPR. Again, that has been the big innovation that I would say can, at some point, cure, I mean, that’s a big word, but cure any, any disease. Um, but what we are missing right now in term of innovation is how to deliver this in the right tissue.

And I think tomorrow, uh, if you have a company that fine, you know, like the right, uh, the, the right animal, molecule technology to deliver this, that’s gonna be a game changer. That’s gonna be a game changer because right now we know for any mutation, we know how to correct a mutation in the dish. Uh, we know how to correct.

the mutation in the mouse because the mouse is pretty small. Um, you have also less, uh, uh, I mean, response in the mouse, but when you go to the patient, to the human, it’s totally different. And, uh, there were a lot of cases right now, like in the past five years using, you know, genetherapy and the CRISPR that has, you know, adverse events.

And death, uh, in patients. And I think right now innovation tomorrow is definitely the delivery. If you have this technology, the game, the game is done. Well, there is

Naji Gehchan: a lot of work ongoing. The third one is rare diseases.

Matthias Lambert: Uh, I would say what, what is a rare disease? You know, that’s a big, you know, big question because I am in the field, but every day I learn something new, but rare disease, um, and depending on the, on the country, you don’t have the same definition of a rare disease, depending on how many patients you have, you will say, Oh, if you, you have this threshold and the threshold of number of patients is different in the U S compared to Europe, for example.

And so now we’re also talking about ultra rare diseases. Like mine, you know, when you have a few patients, and when I say a few patients in the world, it’s maybe 100, maybe maximum a thousand. And so, when you talk about rare disease to a company, and you say, oh, there is 500 patients like me. In the world, you know, they’re going to look at you and say, okay, but I’m going to get my money back, you know, uh, which is, which is true.

Uh, but so we need to have an ecosystem for rare disease that right now doesn’t exist. Uh, a path that can work for both, you know, we need to unite, you know, academia and industry on this question and, you know, involve, you know, investors. Uh, the FDA, of course. But right now, that’s, I would say one thing that is missing for rare disease is the ecosystem.

Uh, how to, how to make a, a, a compound technology treatment that can be, that a family can afford. Because when you think about some of the gene therapy, it’s like millions of dollars. And so, uh, it’s, uh, It’s a lot of money, of course, but also in the other, on the other side, you know, you need for the, for the, for the company to invest the money, you know, they’re going to invest the money and they need at some point the money back, you know, to find a path for this.

So we need a new, we need to think out of the box for the rare disease. And again, I think having patients. in the, in the discussion is very important.

Naji Gehchan: The final one is spread love and organizations.

Matthias Lambert: I would say, um, that’s a difficult one, you know, uh, I would say, you know, like Humidity is one thing, uh, because again, I’m having the view of a patient, you know, every day you, you, you know where, why you are here, you know why you are in the lab. And so you ever saw this? empathy. Uh, and sometimes you have, you have too many empathy, you know, when you have a rare disease, you know, uh, that can, you know, destroy you.

Uh, and so, but I think empathy, it’s very good to, to spread a good vibe and love in an institution. Um, and I was Thinking, yeah, um, again, empathy is, you know, every time, you know, I see, you know, when I have a difficulty, you know, in institution, you know, especially talking about my, my disability, you know, disability, I say, you know, you should maybe for 30 minutes, you know, take my wheelchair and you’re going to see what I see.

Um, and then maybe it will open, you know, your eyes. On the world that you don’t know, and it’s okay to, to, you know, you don’t know about the world of disability, you know, but it also opened my eyes in the world that, that I don’t know. And so it can be in terms of culture, it can be in terms of, you know, uh, belief.

Um, it’s basically how I accept. different, you know, views, but trying to learn about those views will help you. And so, you know, again, talking about inclusion, you know, it’s good to have, you know, when you talk about disability, it’s not, it’s good to talk not only to people with a disability, but also to other people that don’t, don’t have a disability, you know, trying to open this world.

So, yeah. Open the word. I will say it’s, uh, and I think open your, your world to others. It’s a good way to, for them to understand you and to spread, uh, love. Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: Well, mats, open up your word. That’s such a beautiful charge. And ask, uh, for, for us, uh, any final word of wisdom. for healthcare leaders around the world.

Matthias Lambert: Um, I would say listen, listen to the patients. Um, definitely include patients because, as I say, we are good problem solvers. We know where to go because we don’t have time to make a detour. Because when you have a rare disease, usually a rare disease is no joke, it’s life threatening, and you, you have to go to the point, directly.

And so, sometimes, I mean for me, it worked, you know. That’s a quick example, uh, for 25 years, you know, my physicians, My medical team in France didn’t know about the gene. It took me a few months to read some papers and figure out, you know, the gene that caused my disease, you know, and that’s one example, you know, I believe, you know, that, you know, when you listen to the patient, when you include patients, when you include, include patient scientists, you know, you know, our metrics Or not, you know, publishing in nature, uh, or metrics, or, um.

to save lives. And so that’s totally different, you know, uh, our metrics also to, um, I don’t know if I’m going to be able to make it today, you know, because I’m going to be too tired to go to the lab. Or, you know, uh, you know, our programs are different when our viewer is, is, I mean, our view is different.

And so again, if you include this view, um, and it’s on, you know, how to make, you know, the right decision for this, you know, Type, you know, this question, you should, yeah, it’s, um, usually the patient know more about their own disease than any physician in the world. So that’s, that’s one thing, especially when you have a rare disease.

So, yeah, again, I’m repeating myself, but listen, listen, listen to the patients.

Naji Gehchan: Oh, my chest, uh, can’t thank you enough for this inspiring and incredible chat. Uh, our metric is to save lives. This is how you framed it, and this is the main focus and, uh, KPI we should look at. Uh, thank you again for all you’re doing.

Um, it’s, you’re advancing certainly science and you’re improving, uh, lives, if it’s not immediate, in the near future, I hope, for several people around the world. So thank you so much again for joining me today and being with me on this show.

Matthias Lambert: And thank you so much for, for this opportunity. And I hope that, you know, if there are, you know, any, any patients, you know, listening to this, um, don’t, don’t be afraid, you know, if you want to, if you have an idea, go for it, go for it.

Naji Gehchan: You’re such an inspiration and a ray of hope for so many. So thanks again for joining me.

Matthias Lambert: Thank you.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform. More episode summarizing Boston Biotech Summit can be found on our website or your preferred podcast app.

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host, joined today by Anthony Dowidowicz a physician executive who has served as a senior physician  leader of health systems  and health plans.  Anthony is an emergency physician by background and is a graduate of the MIT Sloan school of management where he founded and coordinates the MIT Physician Leadership Group.   As an engineer and lifelong technology enthusiast, Anthony’s professional interests include physician leadership, health system design, and emerging computing technologies.

Anthony, so good to have you with me today!

Anthony Dowidowicz: Oh, thank you, Naji. I’m excited to be here.

Naji Gehchan: Our very first chat delved immediately into AI, Quantum computing and its impact on medicine but before we go there, I’d love to know more about your personal story and journey. What brought you to medicine and now becoming the leader you are?

Anthony Dowidowicz: Sure. Well, it’s probably worth noting that when I was much younger, I became fascinated with quantum mechanics and physics. Um, I also went on to be an engineer before medical school, and I sort of put that aside because it seemed so impractical and so futuristic that it really had no application. Um, I then went to medical school.

I trained as an ER doctor. I went into health system leadership and then went to, um, work for health plans. And sure enough, I was, you know, really, uh, excited to learn that quantum computers are now being, uh, developed that’ll be very powerful in healthcare.

Naji Gehchan: So you’re, you’re an ER and engineer. Uh, you know, before we go into, uh, our topic today, uh, you obviously experienced different, uh, different roles.

from being in emergency, leading teams in emergency rooms, uh, also being in healthcare plans, as you said. So can you tell us more about this and really your learning as a leader? If what is the key learning you had as a leader?

Anthony Dowidowicz: Sure. Well, after my residency, I was in New York City where I practiced emergency medicine as an attending.

But, you know, shortly after that, uh, a few years later, I, I really wanted to You know, advanced my career. So I went into leadership and that culminated with serving as the chief medical officer of a regional health system. That was an enormous experience and led me to go to MIT to expand my skills and to be more effective at being a physician leader.

And, you know, at MIT, I was really inspired to look at technology and how it could be applied to health care. And that’s sort of at the same time when I learned about quantum computing.

Naji Gehchan: And is there something, because you said physician leader, and I have several of those discussions with physicians who lead teams, any specific thing you felt that’s something I was missing as a physician and I learned at MIT to become a better leader or something you were doing well that you amplified?

I’m intrigued what’s the thing you brought from MIT after your, your learnings there into leadership? I’m intrigued.

Anthony Dowidowicz: Sure. Well, physician leadership is crucially important to the ongoing effectiveness and sustainability of health care. And the reason I say that is because it really is up to physicians who have an enormous amount of public trust to advocate for the right ways that technology can be brought into the health care system.

Um, and I think this is a perfect example of ensuring that we implement this in the right way for the right reason. Um, I also think this has an enormous. Um, and I think it’s really important that we use this, uh, potential to really focus on issues which may not be traditionally profitable, like focusing on the social determinants of health care, designing therapies targeted to individuals, including the poor, expanding access by bringing down costs.

The list is endless. I know that other industries like finance and cryptography are also, you know, grasping at quantum computing. Um, and that’s terrific. But I think in health care, we really are poised to make a difference in people’s lives.

Naji Gehchan: I certainly echo what you said, and the role we have as leaders in healthcare to make sure that the technology, as you said, is used for the good is so important.

So let’s talk about the technology you’re passionate about, quantum computing, and specifically in healthcare. Can you first help us understand what does this mean?

Anthony Dowidowicz: Sure, well, a very high level explanation of it, and trust me, the mathematics gets very deep. But, uh, quantum computing uses the unique and sometimes bizarre characteristics of quantum mechanics.

I feel this is very difficult to grasp and opens up some interesting philosophic question. But that’s outside of the scope of our talk today. Um, classical computers are based on transistors. They’re basically got little switches that have two states, on or off. These are called bits. We traditionally call them like zeros and ones you may be familiar with.

Now computers process those signals and manipulate them to give you a definite answer using billions and billions of bits. Um, now we’re hitting the physical limit of how many of those we can put into a computer. Um, enter quantum computing. Uh, where you, you take advantage of two unique qualities of quantum physics, one, you, um, there, one, you can cause a bit to be indeterminate.

So rather than a zero or one, it could be any, any value you’d like. And also, you can entangle two bits, meaning that they correlate, uh, so those two simple features, and there are others, uh, but those two features add enormously to the, to the power of quantum computers.

Naji Gehchan: So now that we understand how this is physically done, what are the implications that you see in health care?

How, what, what types of problem do you think this technology can be applied to in health care?

Anthony Dowidowicz: Sure. Well, let me just start by saying that quantum computing is not and maybe never will replace classical computers. They work just fine for most of the things that touch our lives. However, quantum computers are very useful in solving enormously complex problems, usually involving optimization or things called branching.

Now in healthcare, there are no short of problem. There are no shortage of problems that can benefit from a powerful solution like that. Um, I’ll start with one fact that kind of blew me away in preparing for this. Um, I didn’t realize that one third of the world’s data is related to healthcare. That’s an enormous amount of time and energy spent to collect information, but it’s also so much information that we can’t possibly process it and gain insights from the treasure trove, um, using our, our classic computers.

Um, there, there are many other ways that, uh, quantum can really, you know, enter, uh, enter healthcare, um, and, uh, you know, although the full technology isn’t quite ready for prime time, Um, you know, quantum technologies have been used, um, mostly in something called spectroscopy, which leads to the technology of MRI.

Also during the pandemic, although it was, uh, it was an experiment, uh, it was found that quantum computers could more accurately predict the variance of COVID that were emerging and that could have led to more accurate, quicker and successful vaccine development.

Naji Gehchan: That’s, that’s a great example, uh, with, with practical.

actionable. I tried like developing the vaccines, predicting what’s next. Uh, do you have any other specific examples of relevant are in practical work where this technology has been used in healthcare?

Anthony Dowidowicz: Right? Well, there are a number of areas where it is poised to be applied. Um, I should start by saying that.

This technology is not quite ready for prime time, but it very soon will be in a matter of years. Uh, McKinsey reports that by the year 2030, there should be about 5, 000 quantum computers, you know, actively doing research in the United States. Um, now, how are they going to be used in healthcare? There are a number of ways.

Um, the first is an extension of medical imaging. Um, you know, as I said, it’s already been used in imaging, but with full blown quantum computing, we won’t just be able to see the body, we’ll be able to see the actual level of tissue, and perhaps even down to the molecule. Uh, three research won the Nobel Prize in, uh, 2023 for working on this.

They’re called quantum dots. This same technology has, uh, has potential to be used as a cure for Alzheimer’s by identifying and clearing the debris that accumulates in the brain, causing the disease. Other areas, uh, of useful include, uh, you know, supply chain optimization. During the pandemic, we learned just how fragile and unresilient our healthcare system was, you know, optimizing and understanding the logistics of the supply chain.

We’ll make sure that it’s sustainable and effective and getting what people need. Clinical decision support, uh, is also another big area. Uh, for those who don’t, may not know what that means, clinical decision support are, uh, when a computer sort of, you know, provides a physician with information to suggest possible therapies.

Now, I don’t really foresee that quantum computers are ever going to replace humans in medicine, uh, but it’s extremely promising to offer support for physicians, particularly those who treat complex illnesses like, you know, cancer or autoimmune disease. There’s also been some studies showing how effectively it can be at understanding cardiovascular risk.

One, uh, one of the areas where I think I’m competing can really elevate people’s lives is in work on social determinants. Um, as many of you may know, um, it’s thought that social determinants and social determinants, uh, account for up to 80 percent of chronic illness. So, similar to clinical decision support, we can use the information to understand how to provide resources optimally so that they really go to the people who need them the most.

Again, this is another form of a massive optimization problem. One of the most exciting areas that you’ll hear people talk about and which, you know, I’m excited about is drug development. Um, you know, now traditionally, you know, drug development has been based on compounds that are originally come from nature and manipulated in the create new drugs, basically through a long trial and error period.

Um, after they, before they advanced to a new drug. You know, a long period of clinical trials. Um, so the complexity of assembling hundreds of atoms into an effective cure is practically impossible using the speed of the computers we now have. But with quantum computing, you can draw out what tasks you would like the drug to accomplish and have the computer formulate a sequence of proteins or atoms that will design a drug to do just that thing.

Um, it will, you know, it will accelerate drug development and lightning speed. A related topic is genomic analysis. Now, let’s face it, you know, our genes play a role in every human ailment, uh, but the vast bits of genetic information we have, one genome, uh, contains about 3 billion genetic bits, uh, to tell you basically who you are.

Now, just mapping that data for one individual alone is an enormous task that we’re just slowly doing, but the real power comes in comparing multiple genomes against each other. to see where correlations lie to improve illness. That will become a very, very powerful way to treat illness. Um, this leads to perhaps my favorite area, which is called precision medicine.

Um, this is a very exciting area. It’s also called individualized medicine because it uses an individual specific genomic information To create drugs that are specific to that very person. Um, if you can imagine how important this will be in, in treating cancers and, uh, genetic problems that, you know, are unique to an individual.

Um, you know, when they become, when we gain the capability to do this effectively, I foresee, uh, healthcare to be delivering therapies based directly to you, for you. Um, also, you know, the issue of health equity, that is people getting the, the, the best health possible. I would see precision medicine as being the ultimate form of health equity.

Naji Gehchan: Well, this is really exciting. And thank you so much for giving this overview on the different aspects where, uh, this technology and quantum computing will be able to, uh, help us.

Um, I’d love to hear from you what you’re most excited about in the future, as you said, in 2020, 30, but before that, AI is like the topic these days, everyone’s talking about it and some like, well, anyway, I’m not gonna say what I’m thinking about it immediately. I’d love to hear from you, you know, as you’re talking about those quantum computers coming in.

The impact that they will have on us that probably we’re not grasping as much as we should and AI being like the hot topic and everyone talking about a generative AI, all the things that I will be doing. So how do you think about these two aspects and the future of AI? of medicine.

Anthony Dowidowicz: Sure. Well, I’ll start with explaining AI, which often isn’t as I as we’d like it to be.

I don’t really view it as intelligence. I see it more as the classic dynamic optimization problem, um, which as I said, quantum computers are excellent at doing. So I agree with you that everyone wants to say AI. And similarly, they want to talk about the word quantum, but very few people really understand how to get under the hood and connect the technology with the need.

Now, in the case of AI, the way I would look at it is that quantum computing is the really exciting breakthrough, which may make AI more AI, but quantum computing is really the breakthrough. Um, artificial intelligence is an ultimate consequence of, you know, the exploding IT revolution.

Naji Gehchan: Great. And when you think of these two and how they will evolve and making the bet as you’re making that actually the computer itself and quantum computing will maximize and amplify what AI brings.

What are you most excited about the future? Of those that in health care.

Anthony Dowidowicz: Sure. Well, take it together. Um, I, I think that all of this will Korea has the potential to create a better health care system that possesses far more health equity, which is far more resilient and which can bring down the cost of care and by and remove financial barriers to getting care, which is shamefully one of the biggest problems in the U.

S. Right now, as I see it, Anthony,

Naji Gehchan: I want to now give you a word. And I would love your reaction to it. First thing that comes to mind. My first word is leadership.

Anthony Dowidowicz: Sure. Well, when I think of leadership, I think of, I don’t necessarily, I don’t always think of people reporting to me. I think there are great ways to be leaders, uh, a leader without really, without having, can we do that one again?

Naji Gehchan: So the first word is leadership.

Anthony Dowidowicz: When I think of leadership, I think of the ability to influence. I don’t think so much of power. In the case of physician leadership, I think those skills are particularly important as large corporations become increasingly prevalent in their influence on healthcare. I think it’s very important for physician leaders to push back against that and ensure that technologic advance is applied the right way.

Naji Gehchan: Health equity.

Anthony Dowidowicz: Well, health equity is, uh, is a simple concept to understand, but it’s a little bit challenging to explain. People are tempted to use the word health equality, but that’s a bit, uh, slightly misleading because it would imply that we all have equal health. Health equity is a bit different though.

It’s the notion that an individual can achieve the best health possible for them. For example, if someone’s paralyzed but from the waist down, they may not have health equality, but hopefully we have a system that accommodates them and let them live their best life.

Naji Gehchan: So I think I want to double click on this.

Um, I totally agree that sometimes we misunderstand equality versus equity in health. And you said the, one of the breakthrough that, uh, quantum computing will be bringing is improving this through personalized medicine, uh, precision medicine. But I can’t but think about the costs related to those and how would it be supported when we know unfortunately it’s an issue in the U.

S.? And across the globe, if we want to think health equity globally, so I’m intrigued as you’re thinking about those technologies. How are you thinking about actually getting to patients hands and helping them take out those financial barrier that they might have?

Anthony Dowidowicz: Sure. Well, I view health equity as closely related to social determinants.

And I think of the social determinants as very related to drug development. And by that, I mean, searching for patterns of illness. based on what non medical resources an individual may have. Things, for example, like education, health literacy, even things like air conditioning for those with chronic illness, nutritional support, transportation.

All of these things are really outside the realm of medicine, but as I said, they account for 80 percent of illness in some way.

Naji Gehchan: The third word is innovation.

Anthony Dowidowicz: Innovation may also be one of the most overused words. Um, I, I don’t like to use the word innovation so much as ingenuity. I think innovation is something that all of us make every our everyday lives to solve problems. Ingenuity, on the other hand, is a bit more personal and requires, you know, you know, sharp insight and real thinking to come up with solutions to answer the challenges.

Naji Gehchan: I love it. The last one is spread love and organizations.

Anthony Dowidowicz: Uh, yeah, at first I thought that the title of your podcast was a little bit, uh, you know, unexpected. However, you know, in thinking about and preparing for this, I’ve really come to understand how the healthcare system by its nature exists to facilitate spreading love and creating a better world.

Naji Gehchan: It certainly does. Any final word of wisdom, Anthony, for healthcare leaders around the world? I’m sorry, say again? Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world? Can I find a word? No, um, let me just make sure this.

Anthony Dowidowicz: Sorry.

Naji Gehchan: No, no worries. I’m just, any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders?

Anthony Dowidowicz: Sure. I would really urge them to look at the big picture and recognize how important leadership is in healthcare. There are times when you face very difficult decisions between doing what’s expedient and profitable versus doing what is right on the long term. What I urge healthcare leaders, particularly physicians who care for patients, to do is to understand that You know, health care doesn’t follow quarterly reports or balance sheets.

It has its own nature and its own very complex basis. So I would really urge leaders to advocate for their patients and not try to make profit, uh, immediately or, or view health care in that way.

You know, the corporate, I’m sorry. No, go ahead. I was going to say that the corporate practice of medicine is, you know, properly, largely illegal. However, the influence of large corporations does have a considerable effect on the way patients are treated. And that’s not always for the better.

Naji Gehchan: Most certainly.

And keeping in mind the greater good and making sure that we’re striving towards Uh, the purpose, as you said, of healthcare organizations all across, which is making sure we’re making life better for patients, uh, across all the world. It’s super important.

Anthony Dowidowicz: Another piece of advice I would give healthcare leaders would be to start thinking about the problems that they wish they could have solved in healthcare, because I would bet in the majority quantum computing probably has a way to provide the answer.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much, Anthony, for this great discussion and enlightening thoughts around a great technology that will be coming in very soon, as you said, and we will be seeing it in practice. So thank you for joining me and helping us understand better this.

Anthony Dowidowicz: Well, thanks for having me, Naji. And thank you also for having these podcasts.

I think it’s a great topic done in a great way. And it’s really nice to be and refreshing to see someone be focusing on virtuous leadership. So thanks.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host, joined today by Samy Sidhom. Samy is a physician leader and innovator, currently serving as the Associate Chair of Specialties and Chief of Pulmonary Medicine at Atrius Health, part of Optum, which is one of the largest primary care and specialty practices in Massachusetts. Samy also holds academic appointments as a Lecturer in Medicine at Harvard Medical School and Assistant Clinical Professor of Medicine at Tufts University School of Medicine. With a deep focus on innovative management of chronic conditions, population health, value-based care, telehealth, and healthcare ventures, Samy has been at the forefront of advancing medical practice and healthcare delivery.  He mentors aspiring entrepreneurs through participation in the MIT Sandbox Innovation Fund and has mentored at the MIT Hacking Medicine events. Prior to his tenure at Atrius, he played a pivotal role in developing pulmonary outpatient practices and services, and served as Chief of Pulmonary Medicine at Holy Family Hospitals in Massachusetts where he also cofounded the Center for Advanced Thoracic and Pulmonary Care. He has also contributed to public health policy and is a former member of the Board of Respiratory Care for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

Samy, so good to have you with me today!

Samy Sidhom: Thank you so much, Naji, and thank you for inviting me on this wonderful podcast.

Naji Gehchan: Our very first chat delved immediately into AI and Medecine but before we go there, I’d love to know more about your personal story and journey. What brought you to medicine and now becoming the leader you are?

Samy Sidhom: Thank you. Um, that’s a long, long story, um, but I will try to be as brief as possible. Um, this is, um, it sounds more cliche, but it’s been a lifelong dream to be a physician. And, um, I was born and raised in Egypt. Uh, I grew up in Egypt until I was 14.

And very early on, I would say maybe as early as eight years old, um, I gravitated to, uh, medicine, uh, probably because of my own personal hardship with a medical condition. Um, And I was a patient for a very long period of time during my childhood, uh, and I saw the difference a good clinician, physician can make in the life of a person and a family.

And it inspired me to care for others and to have some type of or degree of empathy that I share with people who I think we are all invariably become patients at one point or another. Uh, and it connects me to our humanity, uh, on a deeper level. And I felt that medicine really is my calling and, and something that did fit my aspiration and my personality.

Um, I kept my eye on that goal since, ever since then, and, um, everything I did was towards leading, uh, to a career in that, in that field.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks, Sammy, for sharing this. So really, as you said, we all can be patients. We all care for patients. Your story is so powerful from being a patient, becoming a healthcare provider and caring for patients on a daily basis. I would love to hear, as you’ve been also passionate about leadership, leading teams, treating them daily, uh, practically in, um, uh, today, uh, and being at the forefront of the pandemic.

I think you’re in one of those specialties that dealt a lot with, uh, with COVID 19 where over the pandemic somehow, but still, I’m sure you’re dealing with peaks of COVID these days. What has been your biggest leadership learning through those times and through those years of experience as you grew as a leader?

Samy Sidhom: I think the, this is a great question. And, and I think it’s not just limited to the pandemic. It’s really is a journey of a, of a clinician and physician is it’s a journey of. Adaptation and pivoting, um, and rolling with the punches and anticipating challenges and rising up to challenges that you could not anticipate and having that kind of skill set and mindset of eventually things will work out.

Eventually things will be overcome event. Eventually things will be managed. So long as that there is a kind of a growth mindset that we’re able to pull together from resources from learning experiences. and from knowledge and from science to be able to adapt to a new challenge and a new environment.

Um, for me, getting to where I wanted to, to be has been a challenge. I think anyone who has gone through medical training and, um, climbing up in terms of leadership and healthcare field, this is just nothing but a journey of challenges and, uh, obstacles. Um, whether it’s through, um, admissions and whether it’s through, uh, completing training, whether it’s through, um, internships and, and, and, and residency and fellowships and research and, uh, grants and publications and applications that get through and things that get turned down and things that, um, work out and changes that happen all the time.

Um, I think this really, um, allowed us and allowed me. To be able to deal with the challenges of COVID 19, despite the immense pressure and the immense, um, problems that we faced during those years, especially early on, um, being able to pivot, for example, into, um, our practices and change, uh, make changes necessary in the workforce.

Um, to go from, um, almost no virtual, uh, uh, medicine, uh, medical practice to a full telemedicine, uh, platform to dealing with the challenges of patients with long haul COVID. And 1 of the things that may have mentioned to you in our conversations before, you know, we had, um, established a multidisciplinary long call COVID clinic atrius.

Health where I work now, and that was dealt with a lot of the very complex and complicated long haul covid patients. And we ran that practice for quite some time until. Demand had weighed. Um, but this kind of, um, um, journey and setbacks and overcoming challenges is not going to just stop at COVID. It will be for the next, uh, pandemic.

And unfortunately, as history tells us, there will be more. Um, but I think us as medical professionals, we are very well equipped with that mindset to be able to adapt and pivot. And this is something that I really feel that Um, is very unique and valuable, um, for leaders who with, uh, medical training and healthcare training, um, we, we can, um, really go through some significant challenges and obstacles, but we are very resilient.

Naji Gehchan: And Sammy, I loved how you framed it on leadership, rising up to challenges you didn’t even anticipate. And I think you’re talking to that. So if I want to go more specifically about you, your journey, you came from Egypt, as you said. You had several challenges, you said, as you were getting into med school, growing in med school, and now leading a large organization and being an associate chair.

What is the biggest challenge you felt as a person going through this and any advice you would, you would give a potential med student or someone who’s looking to become a physician like you?

Samy Sidhom: Thank you. And I, um, I, I like that question. Um, I think it can be answered in many ways, and maybe I would have answered it differently in earlier years than in my latter years now in my career.

Uh, my answer now would be finding a balance. Um, finding a balance where you can

not just be a leader in the office or in the practice or for your coworkers, but also to be a leader among your peers and being. A leader in your home environment, and I’m not talking in terms of leader being a tyrant or being a dictator, uh, but just being that best person that the people around you want to look up to, look for, for guidance, depend on, rely on, collaborate with, share with.

Um, and be vulnerable with, um, and that spans not just the work environment, just having that balance at home with family, with children, with a spouse, um, with friends. With community. Um, not just not just the office, and I think finding that balance as an aspiring physician or an aspiring, uh, health care professional is very is very difficult.

Because you get pulled in different prior in different directions, you have to reprioritize things frequently. You have to always land on what your core values are, and what you feel is important for you that cannot be negotiated. For example, for me. My family is a non negotiable, they will always be priority and I always have to look at them and look at, at their needs and their, and, and their companionship and their support.

Because just as much as they rely on me, I rely on them. And they will always be there. There will always be different jobs. There will always be different careers. There will always be different schools and training and experiences. But the family is what holds, um, my core together. And that’s what I challenge any student, any trainee, any person going through the process.

is to try to identify the score value and to make sure that that stays sacred and protected and to be able to Develop those leadership skills in different aspects, not just professionally.

Naji Gehchan: That’s such a great advice, Sammy. Finding this harmony, this balance, as you’re saying, is really key for us as humans, right?

And several times, you know, with many leaders I discussed, it’s something we realized later on in our life and career. So as early as you just take it and embrace it and believe that those who are saying it like you is, is really true. I think it’s. is, would be super beneficial as we grow and, and develop our careers and our lives.

If we look forward now, um, thinking really about innovation in healthcare, it’s something you’re passionate about to touch us through your work. You, as we said, you work a lot with MIT sandbox startups, entrepreneurship. What are you most excited about when you look forward and things that you think will really improve population health?

Samy Sidhom: This is a very exciting time in medicine and in health care, and I’m, I’m really excited about this future. Um, and I’m very lucky and fortunate to be able to see it from the lens of one of the most innovative places and academic places on on the planet at MIT, and also through the lens of One of the most population health and value based care, um, centered and patient centric organizations, uh, atrius health, um, as physicians, we’re always looking for new tools.

We are always looking for new tools. This has always been the, um, driver for, um, therapies and, um, uh, algorithms and quality, uh, measures. Um, we’re trying to find new tools, uh, and innovate with new things. Uh, and it sounds redundant, innovate with new things, but we’re always looking for something new to use to improve patient care.

And now we have this very amazing, uh, tools of machine learning, deep learning and, and generative AI that promises to potentially continuously improve on processes that it had learned and continues to learn. And to be able to scale tasks. And to be able to scale

interventions, uh, not necessarily interventions that AI is going to be suddenly, uh, doing surgeries, uh, or, um, managing, uh, patients, uh, autonomously, but more so aiding clinicians, uh, to be able to deliver the care that they want to deliver with more efficiency, less burnout. And hopefully better therapeutic accuracy.

Naji Gehchan: So if we double click on artificial intelligence and all the hype around it, is there a use case I’m always kind of, you know, because we used to buy a buzz word, but I’m sure you like me when we discuss, it’s all about the use cases. Like how are you actually using AI to improve something very specific?

So you talked about processes, but is there a use case? That you’re really excited about or you implemented within your groups or you’re looking and a startup that is trying to do it to help improve patient care.

Samy Sidhom: Yes, sir. I have, um, one of the things that we are actually looking at right now and open to pilot soon.

Uh, and this is through, um, work from Optum as documentation, um, for physicians and in the electronic medical record. And I’ve been previously. Exposed to, um, an earlier version of that through our collaboration, uh, with IBM Watson, um, where, um, there was some effort to be able to summarize clinical, um, uh, cases, um, and, and, uh, generate some evidence based, uh, recommendations for managing management of patients with certain chronic conditions, uh, through, um, learning the patient’s chart and record.

But, um, currently we’re looking into documentation to improve physician, um, workflow and reduce documentation burden and burnout, which is a significant problem for physicians. Um, this is just a very simple and very benign case scenario, um, in terms of generative AI and language models. I think, uh, a lot similar to many practitioners nowadays, we are leveraging, um, generative AI to be able to compose, uh, messages and, uh, emails and communications, um, without, uh, of course disclosing any private information, uh, for patients.

Composing emails, composing messages, composing, um, certain algorithms. Um, those are, have been very useful. And I think that’s not just for medicine. This is just more of a business, uh, office, um, uh, case use in terms of entrepreneur, entrepreneurship and, and startups, um, there are certainly, you know, we’ve seen an implosion, uh, of many different startups, uh, using AI techniques and.

Uh, and methods, um, whether it’s from, uh, learning, um, certain patterns about patients, uh, conditions and suggesting, uh, treatments, for example, uh, learning about patients, um, vital signs and use of certain medications and pattern of using inhalers to predict, um, exacerbations of chronic lung conditions like asthma and COPD, um, have certainly come across a number of startups in that, in that space.

Um, and in addition to that, there’s also, um, the models for physical rehab, for example, and, um, patients, uh, analyzing patient’s movements and analyzing their, uh, posture, uh, to predict falls, uh, or to improve their, uh, uh, physical conditioning and gait, um, and so on and so forth. There is a numerous, uh, numerous, uh, Case uses, and I think it will be, it will take us much more than this podcast to go through.

Um, fortunately, actually, I’ll be hosting a panel of, um, uh, healthcare leaders shortly at MIT is through the Sloan Healthcare and Bioinnovation Conference, and we’ll be discussing exactly those. Um, cases and, uh, similar scenarios and the outlook and the vision for different leaders in the industry, uh, from care delivery leaders to, uh, tech companies, um, and such as Amazon Health, uh, Sciences, um, and, uh, that will be coming up soon in a couple of weeks.

Naji Gehchan: That’s great. And we’re partners of, uh, as you know, of the healthcare conference, uh, Spread Love and organizations. So we’ll certainly talk more about it, uh, with you and the panelists. Uh, as you talk about MIT, I feel it’s a big part of your story, your life. It certainly is for me too. Uh, you are graduating soon.

So congrats in advance. I would love to hear from you your key takeaways as a physician going through the program from a leadership lens.

Samy Sidhom: Thank you. Um, yes, we’ve, we’ve sat through the same classes, uh, and you’re ahead of me in the game. So I would be, uh, rehashing what you’ve learned. Uh, but MIT has kind of taken on a life of its own for me now.

Uh, the last two years have been transformational. I look at things very differently nowadays, uh, and I owe that to, um, the recalibration that we’ve gone through. Over the past, um, many months or the past couple of years, um, uh, I see things in a, in a different lens and I apply, um, uh, the, uh, operation processes, uh, lenses, uh, culturally, politically as well.

Um, so everything is, is, uh, is looked at with a different, uh, discernment and, uh, different, uh, I different vision and, uh, I look things a lot more deeper than just superficially. Um, Just a normal, uh, trip to the grocery store is, is different now, uh, looking at the pricing and the shelving and, uh, the

Naji Gehchan: workflow.

Don’t tell me you, you do also like all the flow once you get on the, uh, on the payments and Exactly, exactly. And, uh, looking to see

Samy Sidhom: Trying to But from a physician perspective, it did open up my eyes to the fact that, um, you know, we, as physicians, it’s not just about patient care, like, in terms of prescribing, um, medication X for condition Y, um, it’s more about, um, There is a bigger picture and, and this picture, I’m glad to learn it because I’m so keen and interested in population health management and value based care, meaning, you know, giving the, the most value, um, and highest quality care, not at a, at an exuberant, exuberant cost, uh, to the patients and to the healthcare system, but reasonable.

Um, and that’s through efficiency through knowing what, uh, what to prioritize, what to, uh, implement and how to manage populations, not just one person. Um, and I think we were very narrow, you know, as a lot of my, uh, my physician colleagues in the, uh, in the program, we enter very narrow minded as physicians.

Um, but we graduate this program as innovators, as people who can see a bigger picture, people who can involve. Uh, so many different facets of management into health care, and in that way, I feel like this is just going to be such a tremendous tool for improvement of health care. Uh, in this country, um, the business, the, this, the goal of be obtaining an MBA after an MD should not just because of making more money or getting higher positions and, and, and glamour or, um, improving the bottom line, but it’s more so to really improve the care for patients.

Because they care for the patients. It’s not just clinical knowledge, and we have to really understand that that’s the case. And this is something I encourage many of my physician colleagues to consider and that it’s not just the microcosm of science. Uh, it’s healthcare lives within a bigger ecosystem.

Naji Gehchan: Certainly, this system dynamic approach for us to be able to improve healthcare globally and increase our impact as, as leaders in the health industry. I would love now for you to give me your first thought when I give you a word. And the first one is leadership. Um,

Samy Sidhom: servant leadership.

Um, leadership is, is being a servant leader, uh, is for me is that that word service comes before leadership. And because leaders are elected or chosen or rise to the top to serve a purpose and to serve a population and to serve others. Um, otherwise, there’s, in my opinion, there’s no, um, need for leadership.

Naji Gehchan: What about value based care?

Samy Sidhom: Inclusivity. Um, and you have to be inclusive to provide high value. And I’m not talking about just socioeconomic. I’m talking about orphan conditions. Um, is just just as important as common conditions. Um, being able to afford quality care. Um, everybody should be able to be afforded quality, high quality care.

Um, the care that you receive should not be based on your color of your skin, where you come from, what zip code you’re at, what your title at work is, uh, who pays your rent. It should be based on you as a human. Um, and that’s the common denominator.

Naji Gehchan: The third word is entrepreneurship.

Samy Sidhom: Um, I was just reading the other day that entrepreneurship is an act of rebellion. And, um, yes, and, um, you’re basically are, um, driven, uh, out of necessity or out of the, um, uh, dissatisfaction with the status quo to innovate and to create a new product. and to be able to get that product off the ground and make it successful and afford it to people who need it.

Um,

Naji Gehchan: and the last one is spread love and organizations,

Samy Sidhom: with transparency and honesty. Um, and I think this is, um,

one criticism I, I had once Uh, from a colleague is that I lead with my heart and, um, I took it as a compliment. Actually, initially it bugged me, but eventually it became more of a calling and, uh, more of a, uh, rallying cry. Um, yes, I will lead with my heart and I would lead, uh, with empathy and with transparency and with honesty, uh, because that’s what the world needs.

We don’t need behind closed door. Um, deals. We don’t need, um, bait and switch and leadership. We don’t need, um, deception and lip service. Um, and if we follow that concept of servant leadership, we really have to serve the people that we are with and the people that we serve. We cannot serve without honesty.

We cannot serve without transparency. Yes, of course. Organizational secrets and trade secrets. Intellectual property, uh, are important. Uh, and it’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking more about, um, having a mission that’s clear and apparent and transparent, um, having intentions that are transparent, having goals that are clear and, um, and delivering it, uh, with all honesty.

And I think that’s when you have buy in. That’s when you have people believing in your mission and their mission and, uh, will enable you to become a leader, an effective leader.

Naji Gehchan: This is so powerful, Sami. What you said is really, is powerful. You said, I will lead with my heart, transparently and honestly. I might borrow this from you.

I love it.

Samy Sidhom: Thank you.

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom for health care leaders around the world?

Samy Sidhom: Um, We need more leaders, and, um, I know this has been somewhat controversial in, in healthcare as many people are looking into administrative positions, uh, and less clinical positions. And, but at the same time, it’s really important that each physician and health care person, um, is a leader, even on their own small scale and leadership.

As I met, as I mentioned earlier, my view on it is a servant leadership and, uh, I don’t have, I don’t need to have, you know, 50 or 100 or 1000 people directly reporting to me to become a leader. Um, I can be a leader within my own patient panel. Um, and my own small office. Um, but we need better leaders who are able to cross cultural and ideological and political barriers because when we are guarded in our own little, um, uh, ecosystems, um, then we don’t have growth.

We don’t have collaboration. We don’t have, uh, this cross federalization and, and my calling would be to be able to Have many of us that are able to overcome to become more of the dominant population of leaders are the leaders who are able to collaborate and be able to cross barriers, um, because unfortunately, many leaders rise up to the top, um, but don’t don’t have, um, that view and don’t have that, um, um.

Spreading love with leadership view. Um, it’s more of a very hierarchical and, um, uh, and more of a power of view, uh, of, of leadership. And, um, I challenge everyone really to be transparent, to be honest, to be inclusive, to have empathy, to have compassion. And to be a servant leader.

Naji Gehchan: Those are great words of wisdom for all of us.

You said something that is really powerful, especially during these days. I think it has always been, but in days where we’re seeing more and more polarization, more and more, unfortunately, hate more than love. Having leaders, as you said, who can overcome cultural, political thoughts, personal beliefs and barriers for us to be able to collaborate and make the world a better place is so crucial.

Thank you so much, Sammy. Um, I know you’re doing it on a daily basis, impacting several patients and impacting your organization and beyond. So thank you for all that you’re doing and for being with me today.

Samy Sidhom: Thank you so much, Nadia. I greatly enjoyed our conversation and, uh, I’ve been really looking forward to be here and, um, um, your questions are insightful and wonderful and they did not disappoint.

And thank you. I look forward to hearing more episodes with you and other wonderful guests.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host for this special episode in collaboration with MIT Sloan Healthcare and BioInnovations Conference, an event that brings the Healthcare Ecosystem Together. I have the pleasure to be joined by Britt Wahlin is the Vice President for Development and Public Affairs at Ibis Reproductive Health, a global nonprofit research organization working to advance sexual and reproductive autonomy, choices, and health. She leads fund development, communications, and policy and advocacy initiatives and serves on the senior management team. She is proud to be part of the leadership of Free the Pill, a coalition-driven campaign operated by Ibis that aims to move birth control pills over the counter in the United States and ensure they are affordable, covered by insurance, and available to people of all ages without a prescription. Before Ibis, Britt created public engagement campaigns for social justice-themed films and worked in women’s and girls’ philanthropy. She obtained her Bachelor of Arts in Modern Thought and Literature and Master of Arts in Humanities from Stanford University. She lives in Charlottesville, Virginia, with her husband and two daughters.

Britt, it is great to have you with me today!

Britt Wahlin: Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Naji Gehchan: Before we go and dig in transitions to over the counter products, which was the topic of your panel at the Sloan Healthcare Conference, I’m really eager to learn more about you, about your personal story, what brought you to healthcare, and now being a leading voice on such crucial social topics of reproductive health.

Britt Wahlin: Sure. Yeah, I’m happy to share my story. Uh, so yeah, looking back, um, when I was growing up in California, I was always focused on, like, what’s doing, what was, doing what was right. I care deeply about social justice. Uh, I led service organizations. I volunteered in high school. Um, but it actually wasn’t until I was in college that I, uh, understood you could actually have a career working in the nonprofit sector.

I just didn’t know there were so many options out there. Um, and it was also in college that I followed my feminist calling, um, both in my studies, um, in the internships I did. Um, I, one day, my first year in college, walked into the Women’s Center, like, what can I do? How can I get involved? Um, I ended up working with, um, an organization focused on electing women to public office, uh, which was great.

really gratifying and I learned so much. Uh, I also in college took a class called Philanthropy and Social Justice, um, and I learned how to write a grant proposal. Uh, and so then as I was looking about what to do after college, uh, I was really interested in resource mobilization, uh, and distribution. I was really, um, interested in how philanthropic dollars could be used to reduce the wealth gap, um, and also to reallocate resources to communities.

Um, so the first job I had was with what’s now called the Women’s Foundation of California. Um, I worked with organizations and leaders around the state who were doing incredible work. Um, they were. organizing, providing health education to farm workers in the Central Valley, uh, groups that were supporting young women who were part of the street economy in San Francisco and transforming them into leaders.

I, uh, and these groups, they were so appreciative of our 10, grants, and they did so much with those funds. Um, but I had a strong desire to Amplify those stories, um, to let more people know about these amazing leaders and the work and the impact they were having. Um, so I really wanted to kind of shift into, uh, communications work.

I moved to Boston. I continued working with, um, private foundations that were committed to investing in women’s and girls issues and organizations. Um, but I also did more of this communications work, um, I worked with an organization called Active Voice, which I think you mentioned in my bio, um, harnessed the power of character driven, social issue film, um, to inspire community engagement and action.

I also had the privilege to spend a year overseas, um, mostly in Burma, um, officially known as Myanmar. Um, after my return, I, Looked specifically into opportunities that were global in scope and, um, specifically kind of global health, um, I, I also wanted to return to what felt like my true calling of advancing gender equity, um, uplifting women’s and women and girls health and rights.

And that led me to Ibis Reproductive Health, where I am now. And I was hired as the first development and communication staff person. And that’s where I’ve been for the last 17 years. I’m now currently in the role of Vice President for Development and Public Affairs.

Naji Gehchan: Oh, thank you so much, Britt, for sharing your journey.

And what you’ve been doing is really impressive and inspiring. Um, I, you know, we’re going to talk about, uh, obviously, OTC and your thoughts about this. But the follow up question to what you said, you talked about gender equity, and you’ve been, um, an advocate, an activist, and working, uh, intensely on this.

I would love your view about it. How do you, where do you see us today? Do you see improvements? Are we there yet? Are we not there yet? Consistently think and talk about those things for several reasons. And I’d love, I’d love your view as an expert on this.

Britt Wahlin: Sure, that’s an excellent question. It’s, gosh, a big question. Uh, yes. Are we, um, there are a few, maybe two ways, um, I can start to point to some progress. Um, first, um, I think we, We now have, um, much more sophisticated and inclusive frameworks for talking about these issues. When I was, you know, back in college, I was talking about, like, women’s issues and, and actually girls issues, because girls were really forgotten for so long.

And, um, that was such a neglected area of, like, say, youth programming. There was not a gender lens applied to it. Um, but I, you know, I think we were missing the, the racial justice angle. Um, also, um, when I was in college, I think we were only just then starting to talk about kind of reproductive justice, something broader than, you know, what pro choice, for example, like for so long, the, um, women’s movement was.

As many say, like very much defined by kind of white women’s issues and, um, focus specifically on abortion rights. Someone made that argument. I mean, that I think it was always more than that, but that that was certainly true in many cases in some of the larger organizations. And so, um, The reproductive justice framework, which, um, was created by black women, um, and actually, it’s going to be the 30th anniversary of those women coming together to create this framework, um, came up with a much more, um, a broader and a more inclusive framework, um, recognizing that, um, whereas, um, so much of feminism and second wave feminism, um, uh, up to, um, Um, into the, the 1970s had focused so much on, um, the right to abortion that for women of color, it was a lot about the right to reproduce and reproductive justice, um, that the main kind of tenets of that are that we have the right to have children, the right not to have children, and the right to have parents in communities that are safe and free of violence.

So I think we are seeing that framework and pieces of that framework very much more in the space of gender equity and reproductive health rights. and justice today. Um, and so that is an advancement. I think we, we have a much more sophisticated and inclusive framework, um, and much more of a focus on, um, ensuring that, uh, women of color, people of color, indigenous people, um, Latine folks, um, Asian, American, Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander folks are at the table, um, and in leadership positions.

And I think our kind of organizational movement space looks much different than it did, say, 20, 30 years ago. Um, but of course, we’re facing so many setbacks in reproductive, uh, health and, and rights in this country. So it’s also, um, A really frightening time for any person who is capable of being pregnant in the United States.

We have many advances that I will talk about that are helping deliver care and bring increased access in innovative ways, but also, um, policies and politicians that seem really determined to take away, um, people’s bodily autonomy.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah, well, thanks for bringing this up. And I think it’s a good transition to, uh, to your work, uh, with free the pill and the OTC word, and this is part of the topic you discussed. So if we start. on a broad position about transitions to OTC. What was, how do you think about this? Uh, which type of drugs should get there?

And what really did you discuss during this panel about those transitions?

Britt Wahlin: Sure. Uh, well, you know, ultimately creating, uh, More over the counter options for, uh, health products, for drugs, medications, devices, can bring care more directly to people, bring health, you know, put health care directly in people’s hands.

Um, so I think that was one of the really big takeaways of the panel. Um. My, my focus and, and as you mentioned, um, at the beginning, um, IBIS reproductive health, uh, leads the, the free the pill, um, campaign. It’s a coalition driven campaign. We have over 200 members representing, um, researchers, advocates, uh, health professions, associations, young people, activists.

We’re a very broad based, uh, coalition. Um, This coalition started 20 years, actually, almost to the date, um, 20 years ago, um, because a group of researchers and advocates, um, were interested in exploring how, um, removing the birth control, removing the requirement, prescription requirement for birth control pills, um, could expand access to safe and effective contraception.

Um, birth control pills have been around for now over 60 years. They’re well studied. They’re, they’re safe. Even 20 years ago, the, this group felt that they met the criteria for over the counter status. Um, and it was IBIS Reproductive Health’s founder, Charlotte Ellertson, who convened that very first meeting, um, 20 years ago.

And, um, it took 20 years of evidence generation, coalition building, kind of building support. And then, of course, a pharmaceutical company, um, HRA Pharma, which then became Parago, to bring a product through the FDA regulatory process. Um, and the FDA approved the first over the counter birth control pill back in July of this past year.

So

Naji Gehchan: this is a great achievement for your organization and for women in this country. Do you feel the work is done?

Britt Wahlin: The work with, uh, The work of gender equity or reproductive,

Naji Gehchan: yeah, specifically on advancing, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, productive justice through, uh, through lifting this barrier on birth control.

Britt Wahlin: Yeah, so for just to stay with the topic first of, of over the counter birth control pills, um, That that was a huge achievement getting FDA approval of the first with the kind of birth control pill and, um, and, and we really believe our coalition sees this as a movement when that this was a broad coalition and people clamoring organizations clamoring for this and, um, Making the case for why this is so important because people face too many barriers to accessing contraception.

And here’s a really innovative way to help increase access. So, um, so we did it. We hit, we hit that, um, big milestone, um, But and now, you know, you can go look in your local pharmacies and some grocery stores. I hope to see that the product is called Opal is on the shelf. Just the last couple of weeks, it’s been hitting the shelf stores around the country.

But now we need to make sure people can access the product. It needs to be covered by insurance. Um, that’s now only happening sporadically in a few states, um, that require coverage of over the counter contraception without a prescription. Um, we need there to be federal change, federal, um, that the administration could make that change right now and, and offer guidance through that this falls under the Affordable Care Act to require insurance companies to cover coverage over the counter contraception without a prescription.

Um, and we also need other innovative ways to get the product to people. You know, it’s, it’s 20 for a single pack. It’s, that’s, that’s unaffordable for many people, um, young people, um, people working to make ends meet. So we, um, the company is offering a community, uh, consumer assistance program. Um, and we need to support innovative ways for people to get the product, um, at affordable, at an affordable cost through their for to introduce to you, Title 10, um, family planning clinics, um, at a sliding scale, uh, through vending machines, um, through just free product donated to community, um, centers where people can access it.

So, so yes, the work won’t be done until we, we ensure that people can. Um, access the product, anyone who needs it can, um, and that, you know, that’s one piece. I’m happy to talk about other work that needs to be done. Um, IBIS works on, um, so many different topics, um, contraception access, but also, um, abortion access, and there’s, there’s a way to go in, in all of these.

On all of these issues, but, um, I think, uh, we are making progress and bringing innovation, um, in terms of how we deliver these services to people, um, whether it’s over the counter or methods like, um, models like telehealth, which is also helping, helping more people access services.

Naji Gehchan: Well, this is, this is again, uh, great impactful work that you’re doing and step by step as you’re saying to move the needle and help, uh, several, uh, women, uh, what’s your biggest learning as a leader, uh, you personally having led such important social issues, which unfortunately several times are becoming divisive.

political issues rather than human, you know, topics and social topics as we should discuss them or sometimes medical topics actually, um, that we should discuss. What’s your biggest learning in this and is there any advice you would give for young leaders passionate about social impact these days?

Britt Wahlin: Yeah, that that’s a great, that’s a great question.

I, I think one of the parts of my work that has been the most satisfying is, is how value centered it is, and how. We at IBIS, um, and in our coalition work and work with partners, um, can always, um, kind of lean into values, um, around equity and inclusion, um, trust. We engage in what we call principled partnerships, which are based on kind of shared power, mutual trust, transparency.

And. You know, in the example of, um, the Free the Pill coalition, um, that coalition led with its values. Um, one example is we, um, wanted to avoid the FDA imposing an age restriction on the product. That happened with emergency contraception plan be many years ago when it went over the counter it took six years for it to be fully over the counter and and not requiring people to show an ID to get it behind the counter.

So, uh, we did not compromise on that. Um, and we Uh, engaged in an adult youth adult partnership. We worked with an amazing organization continue to do so advocates for youth. Um, we, they created a platform for young people to speak up about the issue. And they test young people testified very powerfully before the FDA about why having an over the counter birth control pill was so important and about the barriers that they and their friends have faced.

Um, and at the end of the day, like. We, we won by leading with our values. So, you know, I think it’s, it’s a tough moment to work in reproductive health rights and justice. And I, you know, my colleagues, um, I work with at IBIS, organizations we partner with in this, um, in the United States. Um, it, it can be, it can be tough.

We have, we have We had the Dobbs decision a couple of years ago come from the Supreme Court. We’re now awaiting more um, abortion related decisions from the Supreme Court and it can be hard to be working so hard trying to like do what’s right. bring, um, help to people to access the services they have every right to and then face these setbacks.

But there are these wins like free the pill that, you know, those are our bright spots and, um, and, and those will come. I think you, you can’t give up and can’t compromise on your values. Um, that the losses are going to come. Regardless of whether you compromise, I think, you know, there are sometimes forces that are going to, um, no matter what you do, get in the way.

So, um, working in collaboration and principle partnership and kind of leading with your values. I think it’s always what’s going to help you win at the end of the day.

Naji Gehchan: I love it. Principal partnership and leading with your values for, for, uh, for you to win, for us to win. Uh, I’m gonna now move on giving you a word and I would love your first reaction to it.

The first one is leadership.

Britt Wahlin: Collaboration. You know, that, that’s, if you’d asked me like 20 years ago, I don’t think I would have said that. It’s like my first response. Um, I. When I think about leadership these days, it’s so much about collaboration. It’s about kind of stepping back and listening and listening to your team, listening to your partners, not needing to be the one who’s out there.

Um, but the 1, who’s seeing the strengths and everyone you work with and finding the ways to to make. Each person, um, shine using their strengths. And knowing, I mean, the work is. It’s, you know, our, our vision, it’s, it’s too ambition, ambitious to be ever, um, focused on as, as one individual, um, we’ll only get there by working together.

Naji Gehchan: The second one is health equity.

Britt Wahlin: Health equity to me means that we are designing systems that meet everyone’s needs. Thank you. And especially the needs of those who’ve been most impacted by systemic inequities, by structural racism, um, by barriers to, to getting the care that people really do deserve. And so that means, you know, creating really inclusive systems that, that meet people where they are.

Naji Gehchan: What about social justice?

Britt Wahlin: You know, I feel like, again, this is one of those, like, way back when I thought so much about social justice, and now I think much more about human rights, um, and kind of justice writ large, um, think our frameworks have changed, like I spoke about earlier, we, we talk now about reproductive justice, and gender justice, and climate justice, And is social justice, it feels like really an inadequate kind of term now, um, for, for all of the justices potentially that are part of that.

And, um, to me, the broadest framework we have is, is human rights, um, and achieving justice is ensuring that everybody is able to realize the human rights that they have.

Naji Gehchan: The last one is spread love in organizations.

Britt Wahlin: Well, first, I think you need to love what you do. Um, if you don’t, that’s going to show up somehow. When you’re a leader in an organization and, um, and when you love what you do, you, you bring that love to, to the people you work with. And this has been a learning for me to really show up authentically and to build trust and really build relationships with your team, your colleagues, the other groups you partner with, um, that requires some, some vulnerability.

Yeah, that is, that continues to be my learning edge. Um, I think I kind of started out as a, my, I started out my career feeling like my professional and personal boundaries were like very distinct. Um, and of course we, we all need to have our boundaries. That’s important, but, um, you also really just need to show up, um, as, as who you are and to the people you work with.

And, and again, that requires. Letting your, letting that guard down a bit. Um, also important to that is being able to, yeah, show your, you know, you’re human. You’re not perfect. We all make mistakes and letting your team know that. So to me, that kind of vulnerability is a way of bringing love, spreading love within your organization.

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?

Britt Wahlin: Healthcare leaders. Yes. Well, you know, you don’t. There’s there’s so many ways that health care leaders, whether they’re working for profit kind of entity for pharmaceutical company health care system. It doesn’t have to just be a nonprofit organization like mine to be really making a difference and and bringing a helping to bring about health equity.

Um, so I guess I would encourage health leaders to think about, um. Innovation. For expanding access, um, that could be in a specific product or a service delivery method, but it also could be looking at your own kind of practices as an organization and what you’re doing for your employees. So you offer robust.

Reproductive health coverage for all of your employees, for example, cover over the counter of contraception without a prescription. You can look at your own policies and practices. And then the second thing I would impart is, is what was, I think, part of what has been successful about, um, or one of the key things that’s been successful about the free the pill movement and having an over the counter birth control pill is.

Um, we, there’s been a different kind of switch. We, there was a pharmaceutical company, Paraga, who ultimately took this through the FDA process, but, um, this was not just driven by pharma, this was driven by communities, by advocates, by people wanting, um, this option because it would expand access to contraception.

And I. I would, I want, I, my advice would be healthcare leaders to the healthcare leaders is to listen to communities, hear what communities need, what to patients need, what, where do they see room to improve and expand access. That’s, that’s what’s going to make your innovation, your intervention successful in the end and have it really be impactful and expand access for people who need it most.

Naji Gehchan: Uh, and as you said, uh, going back to this principled partnership, and if we’re all leading with, uh, our values and trying to solve for patients, for our communities, I’m sure the world will be a better place. And thank you so much for joining me, for making the world a better place for, uh, several women. So thank you so much, Britt, again, for being with me today.

Britt Wahlin: Thank you, Naji. It’s been such a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host for this special episode in collaboration with MIT Sloan Healthcare and BioInnovations Conference, an event that brings the Healthcare Ecosystem Together. I have the pleasure to be joined by Michael McKeown acting CSO/head of research for a stealth start-up at the Pagliuca Harvard Life Labs. Michael started out in California getting his BS in Chemistry at UCSD and working in the Nobel Prize winning Tsien lab on fluorescent proteins. He then moved to Boston, earning a PhD in Chemical Biology from Harvard while working on novel cancer therapeutics at the DFCI. During this time, Michael contributed to several start-ups spun out the the lab, ultimately joining Syros Pharmaceuticals. As part of this work, he developed novel patient biomarker and pharmacodynamic markers to enable selection of the right patients and kinetic monitoring of response. With 10 years of industry drug discovery and development experience in the Boston area, Michael has contributed and led multiple successful programs. Most recently, he led pharmacology at Kronos Bio supporting combinations, biomarkers, and PD assays for the clinical programs as well as leading biology for their most advanced pre-clinical program generating an asset currently in IND enabling studies.

Michael, so good to have you with me today!

Michael McKeown: Thanks for having me on.

Naji Gehchan: Before we dig in “innovation and decentralization in clinical trials” the topic of your panel at SHBC, I am eager to hear more about your personal story. What brought you to the biotech industry and now heading research in biotechs?

Michael McKeown: Sure. Thanks. Um, Yeah, you know, I’ve always had a very strong interest in science, and, you know, I was very fortunate, uh, when I was at UCSD to be able to work with the Chen lab, um, you know, and getting to experience flexible proteins and imaging, um, and from there, you know, I moved to Boston, and, you know, Um, I got to hear a lecture in one of my classes from a professor, James Bradner, who was just starting out at the time, um, but he was so inspirational and so passionate about cancer therapeutics and helping patients, and especially as a physician scientist, that, um, I signed up and joined his lab, um, when he was at Zanf Harbor.

Um, of course, he went on from there to, to head up NIBR, and he’s now at Amgen. But it was just such a cool experience to be able to do, to be able to do research in a context where, you know, we were passing by patients, seeing them, you know, seeing the real effects of this every day when we were getting lunch and, and in the building.

Naji Gehchan: So going from there and from labs, as you said, to a startup word, several startups spinning out of labs, and now up to pre IND assets. So I’m, I’m intrigued by your leadership learning. What did you learn along the way moving from academia to entrepreneurship and building biotechs?

Michael McKeown: That’s a good question.

I mean, And I think part of the learning happens through, you know, classes and stuff. And there’s always, you know, like a little bit of the HR training and development at companies, but so much of it comes from, you know, mentorship. You know, I think the, the CSO at CIROS, um, when I was there, Eric Olson was really inspirational.

Um, you know, taught a lot about, you know, how to, how to manage organization that, you know, You know, people are important that, you know, one of the key things is, is, um, reducing unforced errors, right? Science is hard. So we’ve got to just reduce our incidents of mistakes that we could have prevented. Um, the other part is learning.

So, you know, in reading and actually my wife and I both, you know, we’re both in biotech. And so we purchased book series from like Harvard Business Review and, um, took classes at HBS and stuff. Um, I think that was really helpful, but yeah, yeah. I feel very fortunate that. There were some very good mentors and examples and leaders in some of the earlier organizations I was at to learn from.

Naji Gehchan: So if I double click on this, now that you’re acting CSO, is there one leadership behavior or one, one of the leaders who inspired you most that you would replicate what they have done as you are leading teams? And I loved how you framed it on the science part, right? Like science is hard. We need to reduce incidents of mistakes.

And as, so as you lead those teams with the ups and downs, this, this is where I’m asking these questions.

Michael McKeown: Yeah, so I think one of the one of the interesting features of science leadership in particular is that you’re trained to be a technical expert in your career, right? You go to grad school, you get a PhD, maybe do a postdoc and even work up in early levels of science and industry.

You are a technical expert and ever, ever deeper into your technical niche. And then suddenly. At some point, you start getting reports and you start to be more of a manager and a strategist and budgets and timelines and stuff, and you haven’t really had much training to prepare you for that. Um, so I think, you know, part of this is, you know, really embracing that, trying to learn, trying to learn from people around you, and especially some of the more senior people.

Um, you know, especially if you get some of the consultants that are actually like, you know, industry veterans that are semi retired. Um, the other one, I think a lot of scientists and, you know, I, I’ve struggled this with this. And so either colleagues or managers is that your skills will become obsolete someday.

And so, you know, your technical skills, like the way that I learned to do a Western blot is no longer how any of the labs do a Western blot, right? That’s okay. It’s much faster now. That’s wonderful. But, like, I have to be okay listening to the people who are now the technical exp, and, you know, understanding that my most important contributions aren’t micromanaging them.

It’s listening to them.

You know, the strategy and the value that we can create as a company and how it can help patients and helping to match that with what the scientists are telling me to make that fit into, you know, what we can actually accomplish with our budget and runway and timeline.

Naji Gehchan: I love this. And you’re framing it through practically unlearning sometime, uh, what we’ve learned before and also be humble enough, right?

On, on those aspects where you’re not an expert in managing teams. So that. I’m, I also have in my team scientists and physicians, so I, I relate to what you’re saying. And it’s an important piece of being humble and say, okay, I’m going to learn how to lead people and manage people. So I love how you frame both.

If we now go to your panel discussion, uh, I’d love first to hear your view, your personal view about innovation and decentralization in clinical trials from a broad perspective.

Michael McKeown: Yeah, so there were kind of two main things I was really trying to push, um, you know, in bringing to the panel and I want to make sure we covered for the discussion.

And one of them was getting the right drugs to the right patients. You know, there’s been a lot of talk about precision medicine, biomarkers. This has been driven by the ever, you know, cheaper ability to do NGS, for instance, you know, next generation sequencing, which used to be quite expensive and prohibitive, and now is actually quite commonplace for a lot of patients, at least at research hospitals.

Um, you know, so actually leveraging a lot of biomarkers to match the right patients with the right drugs, and then also getting more innovative, more Um, you know, as opposed to, you know, moving away from kind of the history of just, well, let’s get to MTD. Let’s do an all all comers advanced trial with the end stage patients.

They’ve seen a ton of prior therapies. Um, I just don’t think that that has a very high probability of success. And even more, I think it actually weeds out drugs. That would have value if they weren’t put through that process. So that’s kind of it at a high level.

Naji Gehchan: Great. So now let’s dig a little bit deeper.

If we take, because it’s a broad topic, and this is why I wanted to start at a high level, right? Like innovation and decentralization. So let’s now take the decentralization piece in clinical trials. A lot has been said, a lot is going on. COVID kind of reshaped or accelerated, I should say, some of those pieces.

How do you think of it today? And really behind this question, I’d love for you, if you can share, what are we trying to solve? With the city.

Michael McKeown: Yeah. So on the decentralized side, um, I’m actually a big fan of the investigator sponsored trials where, you know, this gets back to kind of hypothesis testing. So, you know, if you could open up your clinical trial, and there were some umbrella trials a few years ago, but they’re actually a bit less common now.

And I was hoping that trend would catch on more. But, you know, what I’d like to see is if you could open your trial and maybe the company or the original sponsor has an initial hypothesis they’re testing, but you just can’t possibly know everything. And so we’ve got to be able to, you know, capture the value of all these other scientists and physician scientists around the country and around the world that are coming up with innovative applications and ideas.

And so if they come to you with an IST. It would be nice if we could kind of bolt that onto the umbrella, figure out kind of the fastest way we can test this hypothesis, figure out if there’s a there there. And if you do get some traction, then, you know, expand out your path to try and cover that and get, you know, approval.

And this could work for, you know, maybe you find a new, Um, accelerated path to your first approval that you hadn’t even thought of. Or maybe this is an opportunity to expand. Um, and I think this is actually especially impactful in some of the smaller disease areas. Because maybe, you know, your, your original science had, couldn’t really model it.

There, there’s not as good modeling available. It’s not something that was originally on your radar, but, you know, if a really motivated physician scientist or patient community comes to you with this hypothesis, we’ve got to find a way to kind of, you know, decentralize, loosen up the structure to allow this sort of hypothesis testing.

Naji Gehchan: And as you’re thinking about those hypotheses from an investigator dance, uh, and from a company, then, so, uh, you’re trying actually this umbrella idea and then taking innovation from it from outside, say, say new indications or other pieces, put it in this one in like umbrella, uh, trial you’re thinking of, how do you think about, um, and did you discuss in the panel, the patient’s implication?

Of decentralized trial on their participation in those trials and how it’s done globally.

Michael McKeown: Yeah, that was discussed a bit. And, you know, particularly around, you know, matching people up. And so I think there, there is kind of some need for innovation there that. You know, if you, if you go to one of the main, you know, research hubs to a major research hospital, getting on a clinical trial is going to be a lot easier.

But if you’re not, you know, in 1 of those areas. it can be a lot harder to find. Now, I think one of the models that is really encouraging to me is with some of these patient groups. Um, so there’s, there’s some foundations and, you know, patient, patient disease centric organizations that have kind of taken this from a grassroots approach, and they will help connect patients with the trials, with the cutting edge research.

Give them a community of other people to talk to. Um, and that could be phenomenal. I’ve seen cases where, you know, they were concerned. Oh, that’s a rare disease. We’ll have really hard time enrolling it. And because there was a foundation and a patient group behind it, that actually became the fastest enrolling cohort on the trial.

Um, which, you know, nobody really expected, but that just shows the power of, you know, what we can do in the digital age and the power of, you know, the patient experience.

Naji Gehchan: Sure. And, and we’ve seen there’s tremendous work of patient advocacy group, uh, as you said, to help patients through their diseases and clinical trial, uh, can several times be actually the best treatment option for patients.

And so the working with advocacy group is certainly. impactful and we should all be grateful for what they do. Um, and you touch on something that was kind of my follow up question, uh, on some area, you said some areas might not have those trials and especially in your idea of, for example, IITs or IIS, it depends which academic group most probably will have the trial, et cetera.

So I’m thinking from a diversity and equity approach of those initiatives. Has this been discussed and how decentralized clinical trials or innovation in clinical trials can help improve diversity in clinical trials?

Michael McKeown: That’s a really interesting point. I mean, I think just being able to capture, um, more diverse geography helps that a lot.

You know, um, some of the research hospitals and hubs happen to be in cities that that may not capture the full diversity. Um, and so, you know, just being able to make sure you’re capturing, um. You know, potential patients from, you know, maybe, you know, rural areas. More in the South and Midwest. Um, you know, I live in Boston, and so we’ve got, you know, MGH and Dana Farber and Brigham and, you know, just the South or Mario Sloan Kettering, you know, multiple research hospitals in New York, but, um, you’ve got to have mechanisms to be able to boost awareness, um, and access.

And then, you know, the other thing I think has really helped there, Um, is um, you know, foundations have helped with patients getting to those sites. So maybe the only way to get that new treatment is to get to one of those research hubs. And if that’s the case, there’s got to be a way to help cover the costs.

Because I think that, that is one of the prohibitive things is, is just, can you afford to, you know, leave your hometown, get on a plane, fly, and put yourself up? In that area for, you know, an extended period of time, if you’re going through, you know, multiple infusions of a therapy. Um, so, yeah, you know, there’s got to be some mechanism to cover that.

And I don’t think that’s generally going to be coming from, like, insurance reimbursements as is currently structured.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah, those are those are great points from from a participant plans, right? Especially for underserved communities, how we work with advocacy group or other mechanism to, uh, to ensure the time, uh, the transportation, as you said.

So these are great examples. Uh, you’re giving. Uh, and then also community sites, I think, is one of the important pieces, uh, for, for diverse enrollment. Um, as you discuss those, I would love to hear your point of view. What excites you most from an innovation standpoint in clinical trial that you think will literally change the way we are, uh, from designing to executing our clinical trials in the future?

Michael McKeown: Yeah, I mean, I kind of touched on it earlier with the biomarkers, but, you know, it still feels like a very nascent application. The promise of NGS, of sequencing, of knowing exactly what the mutations are, what the What the condition is of the patient. Um, that’s still being rolled out, you know, and so I think some of the front front runners here and like, um, so in blood cancers, they’re actually restructure stratifying the disease based on your mutational profiling and linking that to what treatments you should get.

Um, so, you know, that’s starting to happen for, for standard care treatments, but even on new clinical trials, um, you know, there’s still so many trials out there that just go into the, the phase one advanced all comers, you know, solid tumor, for instance, and oncology or, or try to go for a very broad SWAT.

And I understand that, that, you know, capturing the broad SWAT, you know, has a potential potential implications for a larger market share down the road. And you know, also people say, well, it’s just a phase one that’s just supposed to be for. Um, and to set the dose. But, you know, a lot of investors and a lot of people are watching those trials now and do expect to show some sign of activity.

Um, you know, reason to believe that might be a bit unrealistic or optimistic in some cases, but, you know, nevertheless, that’s kind of what’s happening. So I just worry that, you know, by using these kind of older approaches that we’re actually missing stuff, it could be quite impactful if you were using them in the right patients.

And so. Yeah, I am a strong, strong advocate of leveraging all that science, you know, preclinically that we’re doing. And, you know, using biomarker approaches at the earliest stages of clinical work, at least as a correlate. So you can understand, well, did the people that were positive have a little bit higher activity than the ones that weren’t?

Um, this is actually what, what Ciros, the first company I was at did, you know, we showed that there was an enrichment of response in the biomarker positive patients. And then. When we go to the phase two and now phase three trial, we’re only looking at selected patients. And you have a really, really high response rate because you’ve pre enriched patients.

Um, and what that does is then that actually gets you a smaller trial because you don’t need as many patients because you’ve You know, essentially aren’t enrolling as many likely negative patients in terms of response. Um, and so, you know, if you need less patients, you can enroll faster and complete your trials faster, which is a huge component of the cost.

So, you know, a lot of the cost, you know, a huge portion of the cost in, um, new drug development happens during the clinical trials. And so anything you can do to shorten that and reduce the number of patients and not treat patients who are not likely to benefit. Is a good thing and, you know, furthermore, I look at even even older drugs, you know, you look at something like for septum, which is using her to breast cancer.

You know, that was going for the highest level of expression initially, and that got through and got an approval. And then subsequently, and partly because of real world evidence, and you know, what was happening in the clinics, they’ve since opened that up. And so they’ve figured out that there is benefit for, for an expanded, you know, swath of biomarker patients.

And I, I think that’s a really good way to go. You know, get your, get a fast tactical trial done, you know, um, relatively more efficient. In a selected population, and then open up exploration later, um, and potentially, you know, do more of these ISTs, get the community engaged and find out, well, where else can I use this?

Naji Gehchan: Can I ask a follow up question on biomarkers and your thought about, uh, what’s the hurdle to overcome to get where you’re saying we should go? Uh, and then your thoughts about. We’re hearing a lot about digital biomarkers. I’d love to hear also your thoughts about this.

Michael McKeown: So there’s a couple hurdles, right?

Um, you know, so, so technically, um, are patients able to get these assays done? Are they able to get sequencing done? That hurdles rapidly falling away. Um, you know, another one is, you know, if the samples exist, can you access them? So if you if a. company or another physician would like to run an assay on some of the, maybe some of the bank samples, maybe FFP blocks or, or frozen TBMCs or something from those patients.

Can you actually access the, those samples from the patient? Or will you have to go get that patient to get a new assay done? Because if you can access the archive stuff and that’s still relevant, then that’s going to be another acceleration. Um, the other is kind of on the corporate side with, with kind of with understanding, you know, Market, you know, there is pushback on, well, I don’t want to restrict what my potential, um, you know, uh, label will be down the road.

Uh, I still think that’s, I still think there’s, there’s kind of a double edged sword there that, you know, maybe you’re going for the widest possible label, but if that significantly reduces your probability of success, then I don’t think that’s actually. An advantage there. Um, and then maybe the last is, you know, if you have to run a diagnostic to prescribe a drug down the road, that could create an extra hurdle.

You’re going to have to get. Reimbursement, you’re going to have to make the, uh, diagnostic more available, but, you know, I actually think that also will go away because you look at how many patients, you know, particularly in cancer are getting sequencing or just the general population getting 23 million and stuff like that done is I think a lot of patients are already going to have sequencing done.

And so you’ll have a pretty good idea. Um, whether they’re going to be positive for your assay when you, when you run it, if you’d even need to, because, you know, if they’ve already had good quality sequencing done, maybe you don’t even need to, and I’m focusing, you know, on, on gene sequencing here, but, um, this would be true for some of the more complex, you know, flow cytometry and, and pathology, um, which are all having advances, um, lately.

So, you know, um, Yeah, so access accessing the samples, accessing the data, um, and then convincing people that this is a good way to go, even though it faces some restrictions. Um. You know, this is also, you know, doubly so for some of these rare diseases, because it’s, it’s how are we going to find these patients?

How are we going to find enough of them? Even if we have a good idea that they would be biomarker positive, but, um, that gets back to the trial design issue and the access to trials. And so I think, I think all this stuff’s getting solved. I think it will get better, um, especially with all the digital technologies and even social media that’s helping connect people.

Naji Gehchan: Any thoughts about digital biomarkers? Any thought on the digital biomarkers?

Michael McKeown: Um, you know, I think, I think it’s got promise, but I do worry about how good, you know, medical records you’ve got to get your medical records have to get up to car. So, you know, AI and all these, You know, computational techniques suffer from quality of data and, you know, I, like a lot of Americans have gone through multiple insurers as they change jobs have gone to multiple clinicians.

And so having all of your your own data in a coherent and systematized set that’s actually interpretable. It’s a big hurdle. Um, I was actually working on a project a while back where we were able to import a ton of medical records and anonymized ones to do some data analysis on. And the computational biologist came up to me, he’s like, yeah, I’m looking at this field and there’s 14 different string entries here.

And I look at them and it’s like, HIHI, HIGHIGH, you know, plus sign up, you know, it all meant the same thing, but. That’s actually a huge problem. And we had to create, you know, a database of synonyms just to to work on like one field of patient sample data. So I think that, you know, as we get better at this, as we get to more digital and systematized medical records, that’ll be a big help.

Naji Gehchan: So Michael, I want to now give you a word, and I would love your first reaction to it. Okay. So the first one is leadership.

Michael McKeown: Yeah, I mean, I think that that’s That’s important. Um, and, you know, it touches on, you know, what we started with here, which is You know, leadership really needs to be learned. Um, you know, they talk about natural born leaders, but I think there’s a lot of learning to be had both for mentorship and classes and books and reading.

Um, and to be a good leader. It means that you have to really take that seriously and take a commitment on yourself to you know, constantly be learning and becoming better as a leader.

Naji Gehchan: Drug development.

Michael McKeown: Man, it’s, it’s expensive, but um, you know, I think that these techniques that we were talking about, decentralization, biomarkers, I think there’s ways to accelerate this. And, you know, and make it a lot more efficient, which will make it more, more cost effective, cheaper and, and raise the probability of success, you know, overall, the, the probability that any single, you know, pipeline or, or discovery program actually gets to an approved drug is pretty low.

It could be that lowest 5 percent in some, some fields, but, um, I think we’ll be getting a lot better at that because of all things we were just talking about today.

Naji Gehchan: What about innovation?

Michael McKeown: It’s it’s an amazing time, you know, and I think, you know, especially being in a hub place like like Boston where I’m surrounded by all the amazing research coming out of Harvard and M.

I. T. Um, you know, I’m working out of. Harvard Innovation Lab, there’s ShareSpace, and you’re getting to hear all the amazing ideas that people are coming up with, um, either from bootstrap effort out of academia or working with venture funds, um, this is truly an amazing time for innovation, and kind of, I think, an unprecedented leap for, for life sciences, and especially as we’re coming, being in 2024, coming out of kind of the investment lull, um, you know, things are really roaring back.

Naji Gehchan: The last one is spread love in organizations.

Michael McKeown: Yeah, um, you gotta lead with heart and you’ve got to care and. You know, you care about your people, care about your mission, you know, I’ve mostly worked in, in oncology and small molecule oncology space and, you know, reminding people that you’re not just, you know, running an experiment today, you’re, you’re potentially taking a step forwards towards, you know, giving somebody another, another Christmas with their family or, or, you know, giving them more time with the loved ones.

And we work in, you know, I work in the life sciences, this has impacts on human health. And, um, But at the same time, don’t just grind your people and use that to make them work harder. Love the people in your organization and love your mission.

Naji Gehchan: I love how you framed it, uh, from caring for your people. To caring for the patients we serve, because this is exactly why you wake up every morning in this industry. Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?

Michael McKeown: Um, you know, listen, be humble, and you never stop learning.

Just because you’re, you’re at the top, you still have opportunities for growth and learning, and that is a constant, lifelong process.

Naji Gehchan: Well, what a great way to end this conversation. Michael, it was such a pleasure to have you with me today. Thank you.

Michael McKeown: Thanks so much for having me on. This was a lot of fun.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

More episodes summarizing the MIT Sloan Healthcare and BioInnovations Conference are available on spreadloveio.com and wherever you get your podcast. Follow us to get our most recent episodes and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement our World so desperately needs.

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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host for this special episode in collaboration with MIT Sloan Healthcare and BioInnovations Conference, an event that brings the Healthcare Ecosystem Together. I have the pleasure to be joined by J.R. Clark, Senior Vice President of Health Plan Product and Strategy at Paytient Technologies, where he partners with thoughtful employers, insurers, and health systems to help people better access and afford healthcare. J.R. is a former Director and Actuary of Anthem, where he was known for his public exchange marketplace strategies and creation of alternative products in the Individual and Small Employer segments. He began his career as a nuclear engineer with Florida Power and Light in Juno Beach, Florida, where he developed optimization strategies for spent nuclear fuel. J.R. obtained a Bachelor of Science (BS) degree in Mechanical Engineering and completed graduate coursework in Nuclear Engineering from the University of Missouri-Columbia.

JR, so good to have you with me today!

JR Clark: That is great to be here. I appreciate you bringing me on.

Naji Gehchan: Before we dig in “removing financial barrier to care” the topic of your panel at SHBC, I am eager to hear more about your personal story. What brought you from nuclear engineering to healthcare and now solving this crucial issue of access and healthcare affordability?

JR Clark: great. I’ll give you a little background and it isn’t a typical transition, but I think what is typical for a lot of the guests on this, uh, is that, you know, People don’t always end up where they expected to be, which is what’s fun in life. So I guess a quick background, maybe I’ll go a little bit back or, you know, to young ages to kind of give a little bit of foundational story here.

Um, so when I was growing up, I was born and raised in St. Louis. I currently live in St. Louis and, you know, my, my parents owned a small business. And it was always interesting to see growing up as a child that, you know, my parents put a lot of their time and effort and energy into their company. And, and even within that, you know, my, my dad was always the person who rolled up his sleeves.

He was often like the, the dirtiest person at work, you know, coming in with the dirtiest clothes, doing the most dirty jobs. And, and he was always, and he was okay with that. Um, My mom was always the first person at work every day. She, you know, she’d get up at 2. 45 in the morning and head to work. And she was there all day.

She often worked, uh, very late. And I think kind of the lessons that they really demonstrated for my brother and I is that it takes a lot to get things done sometimes. And you have to really be willing to put in that extra work to do it. And sometimes you have to do that even when you don’t. You don’t like doing it because you look at the outcome of what it’s doing and, and, you know, invest as a consequence of that.

But I think also on top of that, my parents really spent a lot of time and, and really like focused on sending the message that you should never expect more of others than what you’re willing to do yourself. And that’s not just a talking point. It really is a, like a practice, not just a, Oh, I did that once.

And so now I expect others to do it all the time. It really is. Um, if I expect others to do it all the time. As employees, and I really need to be doing it all the time as well. And so really, those were key lessons informative for both my brother and me. And I guess maybe the 3rd thing that they were really demonstrated.

Well, is that somehow with all that, they really managed to stay involved in their church and with their friends, especially being intimate in their friends lives. And. Honestly, that there’s an art to that, like, of how you balance that. And admittedly, it’s something even today. I don’t think I do well. Um, so it really was a lesson that really, whatever your level of busyness is in life, like, there really is value in investing in others.

So they really kind of demonstrated that pretty well. Um, so anyway. My brother and I started working at their company at a very young age and like when I say young age, I mean, like, early elementary school, we did jobs like, you know, cleaning the office and the bathrooms and doing things like, you know, sitting with the adding machine and totaling up bills for people.

And I think that’s really where it kind of, like, I probably, I, my, my math side of things comes from is that starting with, you know, sitting in front of an adding machine and putting things together. So kind of fast forwarding from that, you know, my. I also happened to meet my wife at a young age. My wife and I met when we were in high school.

And, you know, she is a, she’s a very charismatic and caring person. And probably by now your listeners can tell I’m not a very charismatic person. And that’s why I’m an actuary right now. Um, but really like it was, it was really neat to see, like, She was the first person who I really spent a lot of time noticing how her actions of caring for others really, like it really caused a response from people because people really like to feel valued.

So when you value somebody, there’s a different response that you get from them because they are valued by you. And it’s not a manipulative valuing. It’s got to be a genuine value. And my wife really is good at that. Um, you know, and so I guess moving forward into college, you know, I, I am very fortunate in life that I had an older brother that actually wanted to be around me.

And he, you know, he’s incredibly intelligent. He’s very, very diligent and invests a lot in whatever he puts his mind to. And he headed towards being an engineer. I didn’t know what I wanted to do, so I just kind of followed in my brother’s footsteps and became an engineer as well. And, and really, like, In college, and I guess I’ll even say college and into my first job as being a nuclear engineer, there were a couple of things that were really impactful.

Um, that really is the first time in my life. And you think when you go through school, you’re kind of trained like to get from a point to a to point B in the most efficient manner. Like you sit in a math class and it’s like, these are your rules, use the rules and you get to a final result. And the reality of it is that in life.

You know, sometimes the right answer is to straight line from point A to B, but there are other times in life that while it may seem less efficient, there’s actually a lot of value in meandering between point A and point B. That’s actually where a lot of the like learnings and the discovery happens. And so, you know, that really was a valuable lesson learned it very much.

So both in college and in graduate school, and then definitely in my first job in nuclear engineering. So kinda here comes the, how does it. How does somebody go from being an engineer to being an actuary, uh, and the crossover into healthcare and everything on that front? Really what happened was, you know, we were working in Florida, in Juneau Beach, Florida, Florida Power and Light, and my wife and I, you know, we knew that we wanted to have a family.

We knew that we wanted to be near our family, and so we, we decided that we were going to move back to St. Louis. St. Louis, Missouri is not a hotbed of nuclear engineering jobs. And so, uh, you know, so basically I had to think through what, what would the future look like? I happened to be in a conversation with this woman who was like, Oh, my uncle was an actuary and she.

You know, he, she was saying he takes these tests and when he takes tests, he gets pay increases and promotions. And I was like, that sounds interesting. So I looked into it. The thought of it was great. I took my first test and then immediately jumped into consulting. And, and so I went to work for a company that’s now Willis Towers Watson.

At that point, it was called Watson Wyatt before all the mergers. And so really like. There was where I got my start in understanding what it was like to be in a fast paced kind of lifestyle of almost think of it as mile wide, foot deep, uh, type of information and I loved it because what, what we did in consulting really was around the idea of take little pieces of information.

And then figure out what to use of that to, to assimilate it into a package that is a value to somebody else. And, and what that did was it created a lot of like, I call them high five moments. They’re like the moments, the moments in a company where your team thinks that there’s no way possible to pull off a task.

And yet you continue to work together. You continue to kind of struggle together. You continue to, like, press and you get to this final state where you actually do it and you actually deliver something. And like, there’s just a satisfaction of the team. It’s that high five moment where you know that Collectively, you worked through something that you thought you couldn’t do.

And you got to a point of completion on it. And that’s been really like, that’s been really core. You know, you think about things that are like core memories or core experiences. Those high five moments are very core experiences. And I think they’re very motivated, motivating and inspirational for people who work, you know, in companies.

So all that being said, I loved consulting. I love the teamwork. I love the atmosphere of it, but I also realized, you know, at that point, Uh, I, no better way to say it than this. I didn’t think that I could be both a good consultant and a good dad simultaneously. And my son was on his way and, um, some people pull it off very well, but for my skill set, it, it was not something that I felt like I could balance well.

And so I needed to take a kind of a turn in my career and move to something that was a bit more stable. And so I moved into insurance, um, really kind of a big difference between think of consulting versus insurance is that in consulting. Like I said, it’s mile wide, foot deep. In insurance, it’s a whole bunch of tranches of foot wide, mile deep.

The NAU Insurance has the aggregated, like, efforts of a bunch of foot wide, mile deep people. And I was fortunate to get to be in a spot in my career in insurance where I got to take all of that deep knowledge of everybody who was doing that mile deep work, I got to aggregate it and make business decisions off of it.

And so it really was It was a cool spot to be in. It was a, I mean, just so it really was a wonderful place to be great people to work with. And there were a bunch of lessons that came out of that. You know, in terms of that environment, kind of lesson number 1 is that, you know, when you’re setting up a corporate structure, oftentimes it’s like, how do we trim redundancy?

You know, how do we how do we make things as lean as possible? But really, in the same way that there’s a value in meandering between point A and point B. There’s also value in redundancy, and I think that value that gets overlooked is the fact that when you have two people that have a portion of their task or a portion of their mindset that overlaps, what ends up happening there is that when two people can kind of bubble up together on, on some portion, it’s almost like a I don’t know, it’s almost like a nuclear fission situation where the, the end outcome is much bigger than the combination.

You know, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts or whatever you want to call it. And so I think we underestimate the value of redundancy in the typical corporate structure. Second lesson really from the insurance side of things is that good managers are not one size fit all. Like, you can take, take two people that report to the same people or under the same organization structure, and one person may hate a manager and the other person may love a manager.

And so it’s always interesting to evaluate, like, what is it that causes those differences? And I, I, I think, and this is a personal opinion, I don’t know if everybody would agree with it, but I think there’s value in having that where a manager isn’t trying to be one size fits all for everybody. So I think of two managers in particular, one of my favorite managers I ever had his name, Steve.

And he operated his business and his teams just like he was a basketball coach, 100 percent like a basketball coach. And he required a lot, he expected a lot, but in return, he would go to the mat for anybody that was on his team. Like once you earned the spot, like you knew you had somebody backing you up.

Now some people hated that, some people loved it. I personally loved it. And, but I can see why other people maybe wouldn’t, I think is fantastic manager. And then I, another manager is one of my most favorite managers. Her name is Jen. And she, she knew better than anybody I’ve ever worked with how to prioritize things such that for herself and her team, she made sure to let the things that weren’t a big deal, slip off the plate and focus energy and effort towards the things that were a big deal.

And I think what that did was kind of circling back to this whole idea of value. It made people realize that they were valued and they had the ability to contribute to the value of something, which was impassioning, you know, their, their ability to do well at their jobs. So, you know, and I think with all that, when you think about that, you know, it’s valuing what is important, not just to yourself, but to your team, even on a personal level, like valuing what’s important to them really does bring a positive outcome at the end of the day.

Like I flat out through my career, I’ve seen tons of examples of people who are working 60 hours a week and giving up on the things they valued outside of work, where, when we focused on saying what’s important to you on your time outside of work, like, Oh, you have Thursday night where you get together with your friends and you have pizza and you go somewhat go watch some show together like that’s important to you.

Well, don’t skip that because of work. And what ends up happening is having that extra value outside of work and feeling valued. Ends up producing more output and better experience and better mood, better, like feeling more loved and appreciated. It has positive consequences in the, the lesser hours that a person’s working because they walked away to go do that thing that they value outside.

So I love that. That was a great lesson in the, in a large organization in particular. Uh, kind of, I know I’m probably having on long, so I’ll say the last couple of things really quickly on this is that. You know, the last lesson I learned in insurance, it actually happened after I broke my leg. Uh, and my leg and my hip and ended up in the hospital.

I was ice skating with my daughter and unfortunately just took the wrong fall at the wrong place. And that was the first time I ever experienced firsthand what people feel when they’re in a moment of, of kind of a healthcare crisis. Um, and you know, I’m a very data driven person. I spent a lot of time in Excel or in data or working through making decisions off of data.

But And what oftentimes I don’t do well is to stop and think back, like, Oh my gosh, what is it that our. Our folks that we are serving, what are they experiencing and how does that impact like the overall ecosystem with what they’re experiencing? And so, you know, we, that was actually kind of illuminating in the sense of, you know, I’ll say, like, 1 day, we were sitting there going through some, some cost of care reports in a meeting and I realized that we didn’t ever spend any time focusing on members out of pocket costs.

We spent all of our times focusing on all of our time focusing on. Like the plan paid costs associated with healthcare. And I was, it was like a light bulb moment, like, man, we need to be focusing more on out of pocket because that’s the first thing that people experience. And because of that, like there’s a downstream impact that can happen.

And so ultimately the reason I left insurance is really because. I really want to focus on what we can do to help people get care at the right place, right time with the means to do it so that they’re prospectively thinking about care instead of retrospectively thinking about it. Because I think that the downstream consequence of that is healthier people who are able to make better decisions around what their health care should be.

And ultimately that has planned savings, which saves employers costs. It saves, you know, health insurers costs. Ultimately makes a better outcome. And then even the, the underlying thing of it is that health systems get paid for the services that they’re rendering. Like, there just is a net benefit that happens all downstream as a consequence of it.

So anyway, uh, I think that’s kind of the, the quick backdrop. So that’s why I’m at patient right now. It’s really honestly to help people. Access and afford care on that front line by basically giving them them the means to pay for that front line care.

Naji Gehchan: Well, what an inspiring journey and incredible story of of impact and what you’re doing today within your organization to help patients before we go.

To this specifically, because I really want us to, um, to talk about how you’re doing it within your company and the topic of the panel. You talked about high five moments. I love this concept. Any major, is there one leadership learning that helped you, that you used or help you get into those high five moments with your teams?

JR Clark: Yeah. So maybe I’ll, uh, yes, I’ll say leadership. Leadership way of doing it is honestly, it’s. Putting people in a spot where they are able to do what they do best. And maybe I’m going to sidestep it for a second and then bear with me. I’ll come back to answering it directly. I think in, in a leadership structure, we oftentimes fail to recognize that everybody isn’t going to be good at everything.

And, and what happens when you do that is that you’ve ended up putting people in spots where they’re more prone to either do something lackluster or even utterly fail at it. And I don’t think that’s a fair thing to do for folks. I don’t think that’s the right thing for them to position, put people in for your employees.

And so I think the step number one in it is doing projects and building, like building out solutions that fit with the skillset of the folks that you have. Sitting there on your team and not expecting more of the things that are outside of those skill sets. And then kind of part two of that is building teams where people have overlapping skill sets, but also independent skill sets.

So it allows them to kind of bring something to the table that nobody else is able to bring to the table in that team. And so I think that’s kind of the foundation of creating those high five moments and then frankly, like kind of the direct answer is I think life just tends to bring itself.

Situations that you can make high five moments out of as, as managers, as leaders, um, by really taking on things that. Maybe others hadn’t really focused on or finding like early on. Here is something of value that we’re really not yet putting our energy toward and let’s try and do something with it. So hopefully that answer what you’re.

Naji Gehchan: Yes, yes. And I love how you frame this. You know, I always talk about, I don’t think anyone in life wakes up not wanting to do a good job, but several times we have wrong casting. For the job. So it’s not about the person and their capabilities. It’s just like ground casting. And as leaders, we should be accountable for this, right?

And make sure that we’re getting the right people to be at their best in the right places. So if we now go into the panel’s discussion, this is obviously a very important issue we’re facing in healthcare, financial toxicity, financial barriers. Can you share first your thoughts about how to improve this?

How to even remove these barriers?

JR Clark: Yeah, so maybe I’ll, I’ll take it kind of from two sides for the answer. The first is maybe I’ll, I’ll talk a little bit about the MIT Sloan Healthcare and Bio Innovations Conference and kind of what the focus was of the specific panel. So the panel itself was comprised of, you know, a handful of folks from industry being direct insurance, but kind of alternative insurance products.

Uh, so there was a person named Allison from Shurist that was on there. Uh, there was a woman named Nikita who, uh, she was from Fortuna Health, which their, their mission is really to make the, uh, make the ability to, like, enroll in Medicaid a lot simpler for folks so that they get access to care, because in a lot of cases, people just don’t get access to care because They don’t know how to get through the process of enrolling something that would get in, in something that would get them access to care.

And then there’s a woman named Laura, who was there from Amazon, uh, Amazon pharmacy. And her focus was on how do you get, how do you get medications or drugs to people in an easier way for a cheaper price? And so that was kind of the backdrop of it all. And it’s kind of some unique perspectives in there, but also some overlapping perspectives.

And I think maybe I’ll start by saying, you know, the number one focus in all of it. Was how do you make sure that people know that they can get care in the 1st place? And so that’s that is step number 1 and all of this. So, whether it’s, you know, Amazon giving cheaper prices for drugs or whether it’s, you know, surest, uh, finding alternative health plan mechanisms so that people can get care, uh, with a lower out of pocket than what they otherwise would have been or whether it’s, you know, Fortuna actually just getting people enrolled in Medicaid in the 1st place or as patient, you know, my company.

Making sure that when people are exploring getting care and they’re going to have an out of pocket component that they make the right choice because they have the ability to pay. And so I think all that kind of combines just to say, like, there’s an underlying structure here where it’s almost like trying to take mentality and say, like, I don’t, I don’t want care to just happen to me.

Instead, I want to be able to think through and act on my own behalf and be an advocate for myself. In actually getting care taken care of when I need care. So I know from the patient side of things, we see all the time. Like I’ll, I’ll take another sidestep here and sorry, again, more blabbing. But you know, we, when the company was formed, we had the hypothesis that people weren’t getting care because.

Like, oh, shoot, I have a 3, 000 bill at the hospital that I’m going to have to pay, and so I’m not going to get care, or I already had care, and I have to pay 3, 000, and I don’t know how I’m going to pay for it. The reality of it is, you know, 5, 6 years into it, what we actually see is that, like, people need help getting routine care.

They need help for specialist visits, the 70 copay for a specialist visit, or the 50 pay for an urgent care, or even, no joke, like, How do you spread out the cost of a 10 copayment at the pharmacy? Like, that’s a legitimate need of the population right now. And there’s a lot that happens on that side of things solely because people don’t have that prospective ability to know that they can get care.

And so I think that’s kind of the underlying theme of the, the panel discussion at the conference, but it’s also the underlying theme of what all the companies represented there are trying to achieve.

Naji Gehchan: So as you discuss this, and obviously your, your company is focused on improving this, should we be hopeful that we will see less financial toxicity in the next decade?

JR Clark: Yeah, that’s a great question. And the answer to me is yes. No. And, and the reason I’d say we should be hopeful is because there’s a lot of focus being put on this. And maybe the way to say it best is, you know, you hear the cliché phrase of, like, creating win win wins, right? People say that all the time.

But the reality of it is that, like, number one, the foundational structure of our healthcare system is good. The intentions of the people operating it are good, like, I’ll give a quick example that my mom, you know, she had lung cancer and had to have part of her lung removed. And we were, we were sitting in this, there’s like a special waiting room for people who are having more serious surgeries.

And unfortunately, one of the other families that was sitting in the waiting room, they got the notification, like, while we were sitting there, that their family member didn’t make it through surgery. And I walked out of that waiting room. And when I walked out of the waiting room, there was no joke. 80 80 staff members of that hospital lining the hallway to kind of, for lack of better words, I’ll say, call it provided like a processional for that family as they left and these hospital administrators were in tears.

These doctors, nurses were in tears and you can’t look at a situation like that and say, health care is broken when that many people are showing up to work every day with that much care. And so that gives me hope that number one, our health system at its core is right. Uh, you, you won’t ever hear me say, you know, healthcare is broken, but what there is with inside of our healthcare system, there are little nuances or little inefficiencies and.

Like, when we talk about creating win win wins, what we, what we want to be doing in the healthcare system is inserting different solutions in each of those inefficiencies, so that we push out whatever is creating that inefficiency. I think from patients side of things, we see that paying, like, the kind of barrier to care that is paying for it, that creates downstream impacts.

We have 67 percent of our members that say that they would have, Deferred or foregone the care that they got, had they not had access to pay for to pay for their care with their patient cards. That creates a downstream inefficiency for the system. So just by plugging this little hole there of helping people pay for care.

People take their medications that reduces cardiovascular events in the health, you know, in, in the hospitals, people go see their specialists. They like, they do what they need to be a little bit more proactive in the health side of things. And so I think from your kind of direct answer to your question, am I hopeful?

Absolutely. Because I do think that we’re seeing like a little turn in the tide. Of just plugging more of those little inefficiencies in the system to help solve them.

Naji Gehchan: Oh, thanks for sharing this and hope your mom, uh, is doing okay. Yeah, all great. Yeah. Thank you. Great to hear. Um, so as you’re, I love how you framed it into kind of plugging some small solutions that will have a larger impact at the end of the day, like really tearing it down to some small inefficiencies and making it better.

So a question on this, do you, do you believe that the technology by itself will help us improve financial, uh, you know, toxicities over here to care, or do you think there is still a big social question about how do we think about healthcare, you know, and I’m biased, I’m coming from, you know, like coming from France, where we think healthcare is a human right and like there’s a lot of discussions about how we do healthcare and I’m not saying that we don’t have issues we have actually probably even more issues than here but certainly finance from a patient experience is very different.

Patients do not think about it. The society thinks about it from another perspective. So I’m intrigued. How do you see this? Is, is it technology that will solve it? Do you think there is still a social component to it? And how, how will all this be resolved in the next decades?

JR Clark: Yeah, so I don’t know how it will be resolved, but here’s here’s my hopeful guess and all of it.

Um, I think that we have the good fortune as a society in the United States that we’re starting to see all of the parties that kind of have a hand in In like, call it the, call it the, um, I don’t want to say reconstruction, but the, like, improvement of the system, all the price, whether it’s health systems or health insurers or employers who have benefits that they provide for employees, uh, financing mechanisms.

Like, everybody is starting to kind of come together with a little bit more realization of, oh, yeah, if a happens, it produces B result. B result if, you know, is either going to have. You know, a bad C outcome or a good D outcome and, like, starting to understand that there’s some binary decisions here that all kind of have a downstream impact that are either going to make things better or worse.

And fortunately, like, you know, I know in the red, like, when you were opening, like, we talk about patient working with thoughtful thoughtful partners. We’re partnered with nearly every major health insurer now, because health insurers are recognizing, like, oh, man, paying for frontline cost of cost of care.

Is an issue for a lot of people, and that has downstream impact. And so they’re working towards a solution by partnering with us. Hospital systems are realizing that they’re kind of their distribution of kind of on collectible debt, or whatever you want to call it process. It’s not working right now, and so they’re partnering with solutions like us to help kind of fix that employers are starting to see, like, man, I’ve been raising my deductibles for my employees as a cost offset.

But now it’s really starting to have an impact. So what can we do to help fix that? And, and so just kind of the fact that all of the stakeholders that should be thinking about it are thinking about it and should be acting on it. Are acting on it. I really do feel like that component is really a valuable thing.

Now, I guess maybe towards the social, like, the pure social question, like, if you start thinking about even from the government standpoint, even if you look at, like, um, Medicare Part D, you know, under the inflation reduction act, we just have the, the, you know, the passing and implementation of what’s going to be a payment plan.

For every single senior who is on a part D drug drug plan to be able to spread their costs, their out of pocket costs over time, it gets that same type of kind of kind of mechanism. So I feel like there is a social component, and it is kind of nice that that several folks are partnering in the solution.

Naji Gehchan: Well, that’s that’s great. And I really want to go back to something you shared, having either like you and other leaders in the healthcare system. We all strive and wake up every morning to make life better for patients. And I think this is something that is super important and starts with leadership, right?

All of us around the table trying to make the right decisions on behalf of patients, because all of us are patients at one point. So thanks, thanks for bringing those ideas here. I want to move now into a section where I’ll give you a word. And I want your first reaction to it. Okay. So the first one is leadership.

JR Clark: Okay, so first reaction. Um, maybe I’ve, I’ll repeat a little bit of what I said, but maybe with a little different nuance to it. Is that leadership, I, I’ll say it this way. Leadership doesn’t have to be thought of as hierarchy. Um, leadership, leadership is best when a leader is involved. They’re caring, they’re empathetic.

Okay. But they’re also very maniacally focused on what the end result is, uh, what, like, what the conclusion should be. And, and I guess when I think of leadership, I think of, like, again, like I pointed out the two leaders earlier with Steve and Jen. And they are people that balance that very, very well, um, setting expectations, valuing their teams, and understanding that, like, you all either win together or you lose together.

And and I really appreciate that side of things when I think of leadership. So that’s maybe a short and sweet answer. But yeah, we can go from there. What about health equity? And so when I think health equity, I think of it in terms that, you know, when somebody wakes up in the morning, whoever it is. They shouldn’t have to fear the idea, or they shouldn’t, let me say it, they shouldn’t have to have to make a different decision than somebody else based upon, uh, whether or not they can pay for care.

And so what I mean by that is, if, let’s simple example, if my throat hurts in the morning, like, if I, I have a high fever. Uh, the difference like I shouldn’t have to act differently in terms of my ability to seek care because of of my financial means in that moment. And so if I need to get a, I need to get a strep test and a antibiotic, I should be able to get that whether I am a person who has the means immediately or does not have the means immediately.

And, and so I think about that as kind of the concept of removing barriers to care. That really is the core function of removing barriers to care.

Naji Gehchan: I love this pragmatic example. It’s, it’s really a powerful way to think about it. The third one is work life balance.

JR Clark: Yeah, so that’s it. Uh, that’s multiple words there.

Uh, so work life balance. Admittedly, I’m a massive fan of work life balance. Um, I gave the example before I I’ve had multiple teammates where at the onset they were working, call it 60 ish hours a week, but by producing more, I I’ll give one example. I had a teammate, somebody on my team who. Um, she was working like 60 hours a week, and we set a goal to prioritize things outside of her life, get her work down to 40 hours a week.

And she inherently was somebody who, it’s already a two X producer. So when she works 60 hours a week, we were getting 120 hours of productivity out of her. Unbelievable person. And we worked to get her down to 40 hours a week by prioritizing things outside of work. And she did, she was able to get down to call 40, 45 hours a week, but no joke.

There was zero difference in the amount of productivity that happened within work, zero difference. In fact, like in some places, she actually like had more inspiration to step up and take on new responsibilities and new ownership that she otherwise wouldn’t have when she was buried in her. For 60 hours a week.

So I, I, at my core am a massive fan of work life balance. I know it’s idealized in some cases, but I think it’s something that we should as leaders really promote and really focus on because I think we undervalue the ability for folks to feel valued outside of work. And what that does. Uh, and how it produces a net positive result inside of work.

So, and back to kind of the stuff we talked about earlier, uh, it’s, there’s just such a, there’s such a value in valuing people and, and just like we all want to feel valued too. We feel better when we feel valued. So,

Naji Gehchan: yeah, it’s, it’s probably a perfect segue to my last word, which is spread love and organizations.

Uh, there you go.

JR Clark: Yes, that’s exactly right. I mean, your, your concept is, is absolutely amazing and it’s absolutely spot on. And, and I think of it all the way from like even deep examples of like, so I’m a father of two children and my son and my daughter were raised in the same environment. They are, but they’re vastly different people, vastly different people.

And. And like the way that they see a situation, they respond to it differently because of kind of being different, different people. And that’s true inside of an organization as well. And that two different teammates could respond to the exact same situation in a different way. And as leaders, when we think about spreading love in our organizations, it is a matter of being able to say, like.

I understand that two people are not going to respond in the same way, and I have to understand, like, I have to, I have to know that that’s okay, and I have to know that that different response is what produces better outcomes than if we always had everybody responding in the same manner. Back again to the meandering thing at the very beginning, there’s There is value in discovery.

There’s value in that meandering in life, and there’s value in the, in the different responses and perspectives of people.

Naji Gehchan: Certainly. Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?

JR Clark: Man, uh, uh, maybe I don’t want to call this a word of wisdom, but Every single day, I am continuously reminded that there are so many people out there that are way more competent than I am, that are way smarter than I am, that are way more, like, infinitely better at things than I will ever be.

And giving people the freedom and flexibility to use that, Produces such great outcome and stifling that produces such, I guess, such the ant antithesis of it. Like there’s nothing that’s more of a poison in an organization than not allowing people to to thrive with with their own talents.

Naji Gehchan: Wow, J. R. This is such an amazing way to finish up our discussion. Thank you so much for joining me today and for this great shot.

JR Clark: Thank you. I really appreciate having the conversation with you. Thank you for the opportunity.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to Spread Love, an organization podcast. More episodes summarizing the MIT Sloan Healthcare and Bioinnovation Conference are available on spreadloveio.com or wherever you get your podcast. Follow us to get our most recent episodes and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host, joined today by Joubin Hatamzadeh Chief Operating Officer at Greentown Labs, a community on a mission to solve the climate crisis through entrepreneurship and collaboration. Prior to joining Greetown Labs, Joubin served as the Head of Operations and Administrative Services at French Tech Hub, where he led a team that helped international technology companies expand and succeed in the US market. He has also worked at MDL Corporation and NeuroRx Research.

Joubin, it is so great to have you with me today!

Joubin Hatamzadeh: Naji. Pleasure is mine.

Naji Gehchan: I would love first to hear more about your personal story and what’s in between the lines of your inspiring journey.

Joubin Hatamzadeh: Fantastic. So, uh, my personal story is I don’t want to go too back that I wanted to be, you know, cowboy or Superman when I was a kid, but, uh, I always, you know, I had the desire to.

To go to medicine and engineering was something really, uh, something that aspired at some point. So I ended up studying biomedical engineering. Um, I was born and raised in Iran. So, uh, I, uh, I, you know, got the opportunity to get a bachelor’s degree in biomedical engineering back in Iran. And working the medical devices company right after the school, but always wanted to explore the world.

And, uh, learn new things and kind of stretch my boundaries. So, I pursued my graduate degree in Canada. In the same discipline and, uh, joined, uh, a lab, which is affiliated to the school that I got my master’s degree and then there was a spinoff. That that’s been up was a startup company that I really enjoyed being part of the team.

1st, few employees to get a lot of things done from setting up the office to be the project manager to be the. Person who’s also 1 of the people who was analyzing the images for multiple sclerosis. Uh, servicing to, uh, uh, but they can form a company. Uh, to, to serve the humanity on, uh, basically on, um, clinical trials, and then I pursued my, I pursued my heart, which was my, my girlfriend at the time, who’s my wife now, uh, was at business school in Philadelphia, wanted to be with her and, uh, found an opportunity that was also enticing to me.

And that was joining manufacturing company, so you may not find correlation between what I studied at a manufacturing company in a lighting environment and then the lighting industry, but it’s all about the transferable skills. And using basically something like the concept search certain disciplines and engineering that you can apply.

So, I joined this, this company, um, being the head of quality control. And, uh, that that that was really, really. Uh, Energizing to me and motivating, because I could solve problems. Uh, things that I could not even imagine that. That that I could know from smaller things to. From small things to kind of a bigger thing, but it’s saving, you know, companies.

Uh, costs improvements, uh, improving the teams and so on and then, um, so all of these have been kind of entrepreneurial. Environment that I work at and at some point, we decided to move to Boston. After my wife finished the program, I joined the consulting company. And I also found a boutique consulting business, which was a subsidiary of a French government supported entity.

And that was basically my journey with a company initially called in France and then optic 21 and finally changed to a French tech hub and, uh, joined as a business developer for life sciences. And, uh, grew into operations, led basically the, uh, designed and led the operations, uh. And administrative services that we’re serving over 100 French clients and focused in, uh, technology.

And then, uh, you know, spending 11 years in that company, the company. Was sold that that business division was sold to an accounting firm and that was basically a moment for me to realize that what I want to. To next with my life, because I was not an accountant and I was looking for a kind of a different.

Type of work and, uh, and, uh, I joined green. Basically, the opportunity that I found at that time as the operations hit the. Hit the check mark. So what inspires me? Um, one of them is. Has been the opportunity to learn and do things that I did not have any background necessarily in area that has been created seemed creative for me and I had the ability to problem solve.

Be with smart people and also be working with people who are good people and, you know, by the time that I joined, what was at the end of the day important to me at that point. I had to 2 little children were. Now, uh, older, but, uh, what is the story that I want to tell my children. That’s what I do and what kind of impact the work I do as.

And, you know, now working in the environment, the impact is very obvious to everybody, and it’s not deniable that this is something to saving the future for our children and the generations after that, and being better people, not destroying the earth further.

Naji Gehchan: Wow. Thank you so much, uh, VIN for this inspiring, uh, journey and several things. So I have different questions for you, uh, sure. Going from here. So, um, you were born, raised in Iran. You left, you lived in several countries, uh, and I felt throughout your focused on impact. So how, it’s interesting you started in healthcare.

The majority of, um, our listeners here are healthcare, uh, leaders, uh, so, uh, focused on this purpose of making life better. And obviously now what you’re doing is exactly this from, uh, in a large scale of making, making the world better, uh, from, uh, from the climate crisis we’re living. I would love to hear your, your personal journey, what you took from those different experiences and different parts of the world from, uh, Where you were born to where you are today.

Uh, what, what is kind of the key life lesson you take with you to lead today, your teams, uh, in your company today and, and other experiences you had?

Joubin Hatamzadeh: Uh, thank you. I would say two things. Number one, um, going back to, you know, to the fact that my father is an architect and I was just, uh, following him to, you know, going, going to, to his office.

After school for a change, or sometimes to the construction site, just observing, seeing, enjoying to see that how things are being made following this conversation that I had no clue what it was about, but with the, with the builders, with the masons, with the welders, et cetera. So, I, I knew that, you know, there is a lot of interest in learning things and doing right.

And at some point in my life, it was during the summertime. I was 11. We had a neighbor in the. In a countryside when we had a place. And, uh, our neighbor happened to be an architect and he was making sitar instrument. That was basically my introduction to, uh, an Iranian musical instrument. And it was a summertime, I stayed with them and I became his apprentice, just watching him doing wood, uh, uh, making instrument.

And I was helping, you know, here and there. And, and later on, I realized that, you know, I learned some carpentry. I learned this and that. Um, Uh, somebody at some point told me that listen, it doesn’t matter what you have learned. At some point, those skills become useful and I always believe in that. So, you know, transferable skills.

I think it’s one of the most important things. Uh, in life that we have to invest and the curiosity is very important and, uh, focus is important, but curiosity is important that, okay, what you’re exposed to, uh, what we can learn because we never know where life takes us. And we try to predict life, but sometimes it works.

Sometimes it doesn’t work. And all of those become handy at some points. So that’s I really believe in now, but the, the other points that, you know, 1 is the transferable skills and the other points, um, I blank on my 2nd question. Would you be kind to to repeat your question? 1 more time?

Naji Gehchan: Sure. So looking at key life lessons you take from your experiences being born in a country, traveling and living in other experiences.

Now I got

Joubin Hatamzadeh: it. Now I got it. The other point is how to deal with uncertainty, which can be nerve wracking. And it happens in work and happens in life. And the lesson was, uh, I was born a few years before the Iranian Revolution, so you can calculate my age very easily. And, uh, as I was in the period that I know what was going around me, uh, there was a war between Iran and Iraq.

And at some point, uh, I remember that Both countries were bombarding each other, so there was an airstrike both ways, and you’re just going to shelter, and there was no shelter. The shelter was the basement of the building we were. So we could live after an explosion, or we’d never know that it was going to impact us or not.

So that was a big point of uncertainty, right? And there was no escape. I had to live there. We had to live there. My parents, my father had to go to work. And I had to go to school. So that was one big point of uncertainty. And then those kinds of airstrikes stopped and then they relaunched by sending missiles, which you couldn’t even expect.

There was no siren sometimes. So you would hear an explosion and then it was a change moving from a company country to another country. So I did it. You know, twice in my life, once from Iran to Canada and the other one from Canada to the US. So everywhere you go, there is an adaptation. There is a cultural adaptation.

There is something that you take in, you have to really, uh, contemplate, you have to adapt, digest. So the key lesson in life is, uh, being flexible and learning to, to deal with uncertainty. And I think that at certain points. I’ve been successful to do that, and sometimes I’ve not been successful to do that.

And I could see that, you know, during the pandemic. It became very handy to me that. I was overseeing team. That the work was tied to the physical space. And physical space became a concern because people were working from home. But at Greentown Labs, which is a climate tech incubator, and we have lab space, desk space, desk got very low occupancy during the pandemic.

Everybody was working from home, but lab was a space that People need it and they could not do those kind of work at homes. So we needed to keep the space safe and I had to basically find kind of a meaningful work to retain my team and keep them also motivated and inspired during a very uncertain and dark.

Naji Gehchan: Oh, thank you so much. Uh, I unfortunately relate to part. Of your story with living war as a child, as you know, um, and really, I love how you frame the key lessons from learning from uncertainty and keep on pushing and moving forward and making an impact as you’ve done. Um, when you talked about, uh, the, what you’ve done with your teams to keep them, uh, Safe, motivated, and literally building tech, that changed the word.

I’m intrigued. How did you do that? Was there like a special recipe? Now looking back, you say, okay, this is what I’ve done that helped them do it well. And that you will replicate next time. And comparatively, is there something you would do differently?

Joubin Hatamzadeh: Certainly, so number 1 thing, I think that, you know, pandemic has taught us a lot of things and 1 of the key takeaways from pandemic.

Was the entity, so I realized that entities very, very important at this point. And being mindful of people, because they are going to a really, really major thing and it sounded and felt apocalyptic for

all of us or the majority of us. In the entire world, so connection with the team was very important for me. From day 1, when I joined, because I was initially heading the operations team and the operations team consisted of people from different. Uh, you know, disciplines working in different functions.

Somebody was running the facility. The other 1 lab, the other 1 front desk reception. Another person doing administrative, even though they were in the same group or team, but their work was completely different. Their lingo may not. Be the same, so, uh, so early on, I, I realized that connectivity. To. Between the team is very important.

So I started having kind of a daily standing meetings. And it was literally standing, so we’re standing around the circle and people were sharing, you know, what they want to do on daily basis and came up with kind of a cadence and the cadence was, you know, on Mondays, we share. What is the goal for the week and every day we touch base that, you know, what are what’s on my mind or what kind of help I need or what are the challenges and on the end, at the end of the day, at the end of the week.

Thanks so much. Was basically sharing the accomplishments that can celebrate all together. So that helped us because that keep us going. Kept us connected every single day that we reduced it, but being very much in touch with every person in my team and try to understand, try to be flexible. There was a, you know, enormous level of anxiety because, you know, when I’m overseeing the physical space, it’s under my purview.

I can’t excuse myself that. Oh, sorry. I’m a family. I can’t come to this. I had to come to this. And you would see people who are to wear mask deniers to people who were religious about masks. And you had to keep a balance. You had to really. Uh, work it out that, you know, people have to be compliant, but actually they are also your customers.

And you had to basically support the team to do to do the same thing. And some people are not comfortable. Bye bye. So, you know, my presence was very important to prove that I’m with the team. Um, um, you know, there’s no excuse. I would put myself on the same location as the team to be together. Uh, we’re problem solving.

With each other, and I realize that it doesn’t matter. You’re the leader or you are a manager. At some point, you are 1 of the team members. And every input is important because people can bring a lot of value that that was really, really proven pretty well. And the other thing that was very important was, you know, in a growing company, you have a lots of ambitions, but you never have time focus or bandwidth to, to have a lot of things that you hope you could have done.

You know, but what we did, I realized that, oh, there’s something called policies and guidelines. That we have been lacking, and that was my idea since I joined. We never had the. Chance to, uh, you know, uh. Obviously, it’s at that point with our with our clients. So, what we did was, you know. I asked the team to to work together and build that it was a little bit difficult.

In the beginning, people had to get into that pattern, but when they warmed up, they enjoyed it. They enjoyed it and that became a huge accomplishment because at the end of the day, it’s sold pretty well and that became kind of a. Like a guideline for, uh, managing the space, answering questions to our members for the users of the space or customers and people saw something rewarding.

And it was also show them the capability that. Okay, you know, you don’t work in the space, but your work can be still meaningful and you can share this accomplishment something that. You may not even think that you were doing this job, but you, you can do it. Uh, and it created kind of bonding between the team.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you for that. Now I would love to talk a little bit about sustainability, climate crisis, uh, those topic you’re heavily working in and bringing new tech through entrepreneurship. Can you first tell us a little bit more how you would approach this topic? How

Joubin Hatamzadeh: I approach this topic? Definitely, you know, I would say that, it’s.

Uh, I would say the way I would see a climate change and climate entrepreneurs and, uh, what I see now that may be in the view of many people, right? You know, sustainability is a big topic, right? And maybe my focus goes into the entrepreneurship based on what you’re thinking about is there are a lot of motivated people, a lot of, uh, creative people, uh, That they, they, they want to make an impact and their work is really.

Addressing climate change and environmental. Issues that’s within the purview or under the umbrella of sustainability. Right. And, you know, 10 years back when green town lab was created, I just use green town labs as kind of a reference point. For what I what I try to to make if you go to to to that space and you’ll see that people are, you know, somebody is building a balloon to take a generator.

Up in the air, because at certain altitude, there’s always wind to capture the wind to generate power on the spot for places that there’s no, uh, you know, access to power and you’re not burning something carbon based to pollute the environment, sounded something really cool, right? The question was, how do you make money?

Where do you sell it? And there were hopes and wishes. So they were like the surviving artists. that you passed by said that this guy is so talented, amazing, but how does he live? How does he make a living, right? So investment and, uh, the focus on environments or did this kind of work was like that, looking at them as surviving artists.

Uh, but, but now after the Paris agreements and also the awareness, the global awareness about, you know, Uh, seriously, we are in a critical situation with the climate and we see the evidence of the climate change every day. And some people are more, I mean, they, they look long term that you have seen waterfalls.

You have seen. Uh, you know, uh, woods, you have seen places that you enjoyed and you wish that your Children, your grandchildren, their Children, et cetera, would enjoy the same thing. And you don’t want to see that the quality of nature declines. Which has impact on a lot of things from food. From vegetation from ecosystems.

And also the life you’re going, we’re going to experience. So, you see that, you know, the investment, the government focus has, has come through this way. And now, you know, investors are looking at climate tech companies more seriously. The way they’ve been looking in biotech or life sciences. So I say correlation because you pointed out that I worked in life sciences.

That has a good will in it and now in environment and there is some similarities that at least solving some fundamental problem. Related to human, right? Because we are selfish enough that. Whenever we talk about the environment, the interest of human being is there is not just the interest of, you know, sky or soil or water by itself.

It has a use for human being. So we are trying to address that. At that point as well, but in general, we work with a lot of, uh. Inspiring and creative people, which is a definition of a lot of entrepreneurs that you see in different sectors. that they really believe in what they do and they really believe in making the world more sustainable and you know it puts you if you work with these people over time even though If you, you are not a believer or you, you, you have kind of a rigid mindset, it puts you in kind of a growth mindset to, to really learn, explore and view things differently and be more mindful.

Naji Gehchan: And I’m sure they giving you hope. So that, that’s my question to you. Is there hope you said, you said at the very beginning, you’re trying, like you used a word that really stayed here in my head about climate, uh, kind of slowing the degradation or trying to stop the degradation. So my question to you is, is there hope?

We will make real strides toward a better, more sustainable world.

Joubin Hatamzadeh: Yes. Yes. And we know you, the people has asked, okay, you’re talking about bunch of entrepreneurs, bunch of startup companies that they’ve Do cool things, right? Some of them don’t escape or some of them are being acquired. Some of these businesses are being, you know, getting over.

That’s true. And what is the impact of the 9 employee company in Massachusetts over East Asia, West Asia, you know, South America, Antarctica, et cetera. Maybe nothing. But when you look at number one, That population of these entrepreneurial entrepreneurs are growing. The whole focus, and then also. Because of them, because of the area of innovation, something that brings money, something that brings inspiration, something that.

It is just, you know, all these forces are also shaping some of the larger companies. To definitely look into these companies, acquire them. Adapt and change their perspective that is really enormous, right? You know, sometimes, uh, people may say that, you know, the category of, uh, corporations, for example, oil and gas.

That has been under criticism, right? Uh, you know, you can’t just say that, you know, those companies are, uh, doing, doing only bad things because if you, you can put, put all, you know, every type of company in one bucket, you see that, uh, they’re, they’re, they’re doing some, some, some great things. And some of them are really helping to change and, you know, think away just from the fossil fuel, invest in a renewable energy.

So we say that it’s a step at a time. And those steps matter. And the great thing is, uh, sometimes I think we are impatient and we we want to achieve the answer right away. But if you look back 10 years ago, 15 years ago, we have seen that we have come a long way, right? Awareness has been made. Now the investment is being made, you know, acquisition, adaptation, all those things are being made.

There are a lot are being figured out. And, you know, think about other technologies 20 years ago, 30 years ago, there were skepticism skepticism around them. There were big questions about them. Some suddenly boom collapsed. But overall, it changed to where we are now. And I see the same thing about sustainability industry.

In the long run, I don’t think there is a point of return. It’s a point of no return, technically. It just forward,

Naji Gehchan: which is, which is great for, for all of us and for the future generations as I said, I’m going to give you now a word, and I would love a reaction to it, whatever first come to mind. The first one is leadership.

Joubin Hatamzadeh: That’s a good one because that’s the one that I try to have a definition for myself.

Definitely leadership is something to be able to inspire, motivate, and help moving forward.

Naji Gehchan: The second one is greenwashing.

Joubin Hatamzadeh: It’s a bad thing. You’re faking something. And it’s a bad intention. It has bad outcome.

Naji Gehchan: So if I flip this around, And double click on it. What is your biggest ask for leaders today from a social impact aspect? Whatever industry we’re in, what is your biggest ask for us to make real important good strides towards a more sustainable world?

Joubin Hatamzadeh: Be genuine, be intentional, because you know, to make this sustainability move forward, Uh, you know, to to get where we all desire. It gets, uh, it’s to it, it requires a lot of commitment, a lot of work, uh, not not giving up. So, and really, really, you need to put a lot of efforts in that and be very, very genuine about what you do.

Because people it works out when you’re genuine people see that and believe you and follow you and they, you know, you, you have more buying and the other bond that that I said, you know, in addition to that, be intentional. It is very important. I can give leadership. And then other things, I think it works pretty well.

Naji Gehchan: The third one is sitar.

Joubin Hatamzadeh: So sitar is the indian instrument and sitar s e t a r uh is the one that I play and uh,

it’s like love and kind of

You know something that you would it’s it’s a medium of conversation to to express your heart

Naji Gehchan: What a great segue to my last word spread love and organizations

Joubin Hatamzadeh: spread love in organization. It’s fantastic. Yes

Naji Gehchan: Any reaction to it?

Joubin Hatamzadeh: Yeah, it’s very important. It is very important. Uh, spread loving to any organization. I think is, is something that I, that I really relates because at the end of the day, uh, uh, during a pandemic being in a very, uh, you are, you have been to bring down lab. You have seen the space. People enjoy visiting the space.

People enjoy working here. It’s cool. It’s nice. It’s vibrant. But when the pandemic happened. I felt very depressed every day I came because the energy was not the same. It was felt like Sunday evening that the occupancy was 1 or 2 people. Rather than over 400 or 500. On a daily basis, right? So, I realized at that point that.

You know, in an incubator you don’t have intellectual property, you have a lot of assets. Now what’s the meaning of these assets when nobody’s using it? You know, even for a month or two months, you have to pay a lot, you know, for hvac, electricity, and all those things. For who and for what and what. What’s important at that point is you would be able to.

Uh, keep something that is meaningful and that is personal and the team. So the team was the biggest asset in my opinion. Even though the company doesn’t have, you know, intellectual property, that is the biggest intellectual property. How can you keep people in place? You know, people are incentivized, but incentive money becomes a number and people adapt their lifestyle to, to that number and.

But it’s not a long term motivator. Work is the type of work they do is motivator, but the human connection is another motivator, and love describes it pretty well. Love, affection, empathy. They work all hand in hand and create kind of a stronger human connection.

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom, Joobin, for leaders around the world?

Joubin Hatamzadeh: Your job is asking really, uh, uh, difficult

I think being empathetic is very important.

Having empathy is important, and be intentional about that.

Naji Gehchan: Uh, Joobin, you broke, so I’m gonna re ask the question, and if you can give me the answer again. It just broke, I didn’t hear it, actually. Okay, can you hear me?

Joubin Hatamzadeh: Sorry, but that Internet connection I would say that, uh, uh, have empathy have empathy is very, very important. You know, business is important mission is important. Responsibility is important, but, uh, as long as you work with human beings. As for a leader,

uh, I think any manager level for any person working with. Any other individual. That’s the important factor.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much for this great conversation, this inspiring chat. Thank you for joining me from the lab itself. Uh, and this is, uh, labs are always moving people, as you said. So this is why from time to time, I know, uh, you were moving also around some of the discussions and the lively things happening in the lab.

So thank you so much for your time. I know you’re. Doing great things and super busy to make sure that our children and our grandchildren will have a better word and a better earth. So thanks for being with me again today.

Joubin Hatamzadeh: It was a real pleasure and thank you so much.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host for this special episode in partnership with ESCP Business School and its specialized Masters in Pharma and Biotech Management. I am joined today by Clarissa Gorin a pharmacist and ESCP alum. Following her initial professional experience focusing on the blockchain industry and the fight against counterfeit medicines in developing countries, Clarissa joined Ad Scientiam in 2020 as Head of Medical Affairs. Ad Scientiam, a MedTech company originating from the Paris Brain Institute, specializes in developing digital biomarkers that enable the monitoring and prediction of the progression of certain neurodegenerative pathologies and rare diseases. These innovative markers are derived from proprietary algorithms for measuring precise analysis movements, vocal activity, or image processing derived from smartphone sensors and AI technologies.

Clarissa, It’s great to have you with me today!

Clarissa Gorin: Yeah. Well, thank you for the invitation and for the great introduction and, uh, the opportunity to, to share my professional experience and, uh, insights in the medtech, uh, sector, which, um, I hope will be useful to, to others.

Naji Gehchan: I’m sure it will. So before we go into this passion you have since, uh, early on about innovative tech and now AI that became a big subject. Can you first tell us more about your personal story, uh, why becoming a pharmacist, now being a leader in this edge of tech innovation and healthcare?

Clarissa Gorin: Yeah. Well, sure.

Thanks for the question. So I think, well, I come from a family of, uh, doctors, so like the health, uh, sector was always a subject when I started to, to look for different, um, well, specialization and, and, um, well, um, uh, formation. Uh, so it all started quite classically, uh, with this, uh, pharmacy, uh, sector, uh, from which I chose, uh, the industry sector.

Um, I wanted first, uh, to build a career in the pharmaceutical marketing, uh, but much more related to the drug, uh, industries. And, um, with my first Pharmacy diploma in hand, I joined this, uh, ESCP, a master of science, um, specialized in pharmaceutical and biotech, um, management. Um, for me, it was very interesting because the, the pharmacy sector is very, offers a wide range of, um, professional, um, path, uh, such as hospital, uh, city based pharmacy and industry.

Um, so for me, who wasn’t very sure about, uh, what type of, um, well, Pathway I wanted to embrace. It was interesting to have such a different options. Um, but very quickly, uh, doing the, the ESCP master of science, I was, um, quickly offered the first, uh, opportunity, uh, professional opportunity, um, which. Can we say diverted me from this classic path of marketing and in pharma?

As I joined the entrepreneurial adventure, uh, doing the master with some former classmates from the faculty of pharmacy who were launching this, uh, by a blockchain, uh, technology project that you were talking about, um, with the ambitious aim to fight, uh, fake drugs in sub Saharan Africa. Um, so yeah, well, I believe that, uh, it was very interesting.

It was much more related to, you know, uh, public health, uh, consideration and despite my knowledge in the, well, drug system, drug, uh, distribution process, I was, you know, Immediately confronted with a new challenges, um, both in terms of, you know, understanding a new technology, the blockchain, uh, which was very famous in that hand and also a major, um, cultural differences, um, in a, in a market that was very different from France.

Um, we, we were able to travel a lot, uh, to Hebrew coast. Um, so yeah, it was a very. Interesting first experience and a great opportunity for me, uh, going from a more classic path of, uh, industry and pharma to, uh, open my eyes to new, uh, horizon. And in particular, uh, to grow my, my passion for the application of new technologies to the healthcare field.

Naji Gehchan: I want to go a little bit there because it’s a, it’s a great, uh, experience on how you’re framing, uh, try to, uh, you went from the, what you say, the classical path. into more tech. You also discovered other challenges that we do not face in countries because you’re, we’re talking now you’re in Paris and France.

So, um, where, where you had, uh, your, your studies, um, and also entrepreneurial. So there’s, different levels of cultural differences that you had from work to also the patients who were serving. So I’d love to go there and understand now after the facts, when you look back, what is the key learning, uh, or the key leadership lessons that you had through the experiences you’ve been having.

Clarissa Gorin: Sure. So yeah, for me, it was very, um, instructive, uh, first experience because as you said, uh, we were coming from our well, well developed, uh, countries idea, um, project proposition. And, uh, once arriving in, uh, Africa, um, Hebrew coast, it was really a challenge to understand the cultural differences also, uh, regarding the adoption of new technologies.

Uh, you know, we were. Coming there was a great idea to fight this fake medicine problems, which is very important in such countries. But we had also this very fine tuning technology called blockchain, where we wanted to capitalize, to capitalize in. And it was sometimes very difficult for us to, well, to educate also the local population of the potential of, uh, such a fake medicines and also, uh, the usage of such a new technologies.

Um, even, you know, like, uh, using a smartphones, uh, on a daily basis, but not something that was so usual at the time, uh, in Africa in comparison to, um, well, um, Europe and, uh, specifically, uh, Africa. Um, so for me, uh, it was. Very, uh, important, uh, to understand and to have adaptability process, uh, in mind, uh, to make sure that we adapt the technology to the real needs of the fields.

And it was, I mean, for me, it’s one of the most important, um, capacity of, uh, leaders is to have a great adaptability mind process to support, uh, agile. Team culture and also personal cultures of work, um, to be able, you know, to quickly, um, react if there is some, uh, dynamics, for example, here, a new challenge in new countries, uh, with different cultures, uh, to be able to adapt, um, such technology in the, in this case.

But also, um, it enables great leaders to encourage. And exploit new opportunities and to take on new challenges. So I think it was maybe for me, the greatest lesson learned on this first experience, that we need to adapt our thoughts and beliefs to the actual needs of the market. And especially for new technologies that come from another situation and other markets to be able to adapt it to local specificities.

Naji Gehchan: So do you look now at new technologies in a different way about how they would actually impact patients across the globe?

Clarissa Gorin: Yes, sure. Um, so I believe that my different, uh, now look on a new technology and in particular in this, uh, medical sector, uh, is that sometimes, uh, we do not need to have the most sophisticated, uh, technology to be able to tackle some, uh, specific needs, you know, sometimes when we discuss with, uh, doctors, nurses, um, in, uh, hospital centers, uh, Um, they describe us their needs and their daily problems.

And sometimes we just look back and say, you know, we don’t need a very fancy technologies to be able to answer to that need. So it’s really a challenge for us working in the tech where we want to make sure that our technologies are adopt, adopted, um, by every populations. But sometimes, I mean, a. For us, it’s, uh, it’s important also to know, uh, where we do not need actually, um, new technology to answer this needs.

Um, it’s very different, I believe, from, um, other industry, um, where sometimes it’s the more important is actually the, the technical concept of the technology, but I’m pretty sure and from now on to have been able to discuss with lots of different stakeholders in the medical sectors, it’s much more related to if there is a specific challenges and what is the fit for people’s technologies that could answer to this needs to be able to achieve a full adoption by the different users.

Naji Gehchan: Thanks. So that’s, that’s a great points you’re bringing. And really it reminds me like there’s. We’re a lot of work actually in the healthcare sector, as you know, about low tech that can actually improve and impact patients. So there’s always this idea of certainly high tech has done tremendous work, and we’re going to talk about this and where you’re excited.

But not forgetting that some. Some places low tech can really bring a huge impact for people. Uh, and we, we should continue to consider it.

Clarissa Gorin: Yeah, totally. Uh, low tech, but also, uh, making sure that, um, all, uh, accessibility aspects are taking, um, in consideration when developing and conceiving, uh, this technology products.

Uh, we’ve been working, uh, in AdSensia means very different, uh, age courses of patients, uh, meaning children. uh, elderly patients. And, um, every time we ask ourselves what is the best technology to be able to achieve accessibility, uh, so, you know, like, uh, capacity of, uh, using the tool. Uh, but also, uh, there is some accessibility aspects related to, uh, disabling aspects of such a chronic disease, uh, hearing loss, for example, and other aspects.

And, um, it’s true that sometimes, um, new technologies are the answers, but sometimes they are not. And so, I mean, being humble about, uh, what those type of high tech, uh, products can, uh, can perform and achieve in the health tech sector, um, is very important, um, for me, uh, so on.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. And how you’re framing it, uh, would correct me if I’m wrong.

I’m feeling like we should always think about. What do we want to achieve and the technology, whether it’s like super high tech or it’s not, is actually just a mean.

Clarissa Gorin: Sure. And it’s just a mean, and also it could be different, uh, with different means, you know, like being able to really identify which is the specific medical challenges or.

Unmet needs that you want to tackle, um, is very important. And for one specific medical challenges, you could think about different, um, tech solutions to, to answer to it. Um, and for us, sometimes, uh, um, we, when we start a new project, um, we can identify that sometimes our projects are not the best solution to answer as a specific medical challenge.

And it’s. It’s totally, uh, okay to, to, to stop, uh, the project and to answer that we do not have, um, the best project to answer this and to be able to, yeah, once again, being humble about, um, what your, your project can do and what is not the best, uh, to do is very important.

Naji Gehchan: And it starts, as you just said, with the unmet medical need.

It really starts with patients. What are we trying to solve to make their life better?

Clarissa Gorin: Totally patients, um, but also doctors, uh, sometimes, um, we can see that, you know, in particular in France, uh, we, uh, where we have a public health sector, um, that sometimes, um, isn’t. Is in difficulty. Uh, sometimes we can see some very specific national, um, um, errors or like challenges, uh, to be tackled by new technologies.

Uh, I believe that there is a lot to do in hospital centers, expert centers, uh, to make sure that, um, the whole, uh, care pathway is more efficient. And also, you’re totally right. Much more related to, um, well. Direct benefits for patients and for their daily life, but both are very important to understand, um, either if it’s a specific, um, medical for doctor use or a patient use, because it will be very different in your, um, development process and, um, well, concept phase, um, to be sure to have the best fit for people’s, um, project.

Naji Gehchan: Awesome. So we just said, and you said that you don’t have like, there’s not only one solution, there is several and it depends, but I’m going to still ask you this question, since you’ve been in this field and you’re looking into the future, which one of these solutions do you think Or a couple of these emerging techs are you most excited about for the next decade that you really think they are going to change our health?

Clarissa Gorin: Yeah, well, of course, I will talk about, uh, well, digital biomarkers because, you know, I’m working on it and I believe there is a lot of to do. Um, but also I would say that, um, Well, AI and VR can also have a lot to do. For example, uh, I’ve seen a lot of projects, um, coming from virtual, uh, reality systems, uh, that could have a strong impact in the field of, for example, digital therapeutics, uh, where we can see that such tools can be used, um, to be Really like intervention based driven by software programs to, uh, help prevent, uh, manage or treat some medical disorders and disease.

Uh, for example, like VR can be used to, uh, treat, um, chronic pain or, for example, to, uh, Hades, um, in, uh, rehabilitation programs by, uh, incorporating sensors and, um, software technology to provide a real time feedback and guidance to, to patients, uh, directly at home. So it’s really something, uh, that can be very useful in, for example, neuromuscular disease, uh, other orthopedic, uh, diseases.

Regarding artificial intelligence in particular, um, we’ve been, uh, understanding and hearing a lot regarding how, uh, AI will, uh, replace, uh, human doctors in the near future. Um, I really don’t think it would be the case. Uh, I much more think that it will become critical tools, um, to help augment medical practice and, um, much more important to reduce the burden for healthcare providers.

So for example, we can think about diagnostic tools that helps doctors to improve real time decision making for clinicians. For example, by analyzing a lot and a lot of data at the same time, so the healthcare provider, uh, Could not be able to do it from, for example, a patient’s medical records or scientific articles or medical guidelines, um, for example, to give, uh, some treatment recommendation or to identify some drug interactions, uh, much more easily, uh, and with a tons of data analyzed at the same times.

Regarding, uh, digital biomarkers, um, for me, I believe that, uh, such tools as you introduced, uh, that are really new measures of, uh, physiological or comportmental, um, aspects of, uh, patients and that are, um, generated directly by patients by the means of, uh, digital devices. Uh, they have the power to really, um, well, understand some mechanisms that are not well understood so far, for example, to monitor or predict, uh, some diseases and specifically neurological diseases.

Uh, where we know that, uh, usual biomarkers such as, uh, imaging biology are not fully, uh, sufficient to understand the clinical evolution and response to treatment of individual patients. So, it’s a really a major, uh, research challenges for clinicians and, um, well, for the scientific community at a whole.

And, um, for me, it was very, uh, important. Um, to try to see how those digital biomarkers could be useful in such a pathology. Uh, so yeah, well, I think it’s a three examples. I know that there is tons of more, um, but I see here some very, uh, specific and practical, um, aspects and, uh, objectives because we know there is also lots and tons of technologies that are still in research and development, but.

That have not, um, well, indication and usage are ready for the next years.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much, uh, Clarissa for for this. Can can you give us a couple of one or two use cases, for example, for digital biomarkers, which is one of the specialties here. And I’m interested to learning more on specific use cases that have had an impact on research or on patients.

Clarissa Gorin: Yeah, sure. Uh, well, maybe some first, uh, example that we, that we have, um, I could say that, uh, in multiple sclerosis, that is a neurological disease, autoimmune disease, um, where we know that patients are evolving, uh, during the years and progressively, um, going into a late progressive phase, uh, where they tend to act Cumulate some disabling aspects of their disease, um, and which is the first cause of, um, disability in young patients after traumatic cases.

So really, uh, major. public health impact, um, for such disease and where, uh, as so far, it’s very difficult, uh, for clinicians, so mainly a neurologist, uh, to understand, uh, why some patients are progressing more rapidly than others. And we know that it’s a very specific challenge, uh, to know and to detect Earlier, uh, when a patient will be progressively, um, going into this progressive phase of the disease, uh, where it’s very important to, for example, adapt the treatment, uh, to slow down the disease and, uh, and, and stop the, the progression of the disease, uh, um, inherently.

And so here, uh, we know that So typical biomarkers are not, um, sufficient to detect and predict the true moments, uh, where such patients will be, uh, while transforming into their disease phase. And that’s where, uh, one hypothesis is that, um, digital biomarkers by enabling, uh, much more frequently measures of the functional impact of the disease of the patients, for example, regarding the walking capacities.

Cognitive impact, uh, vision related disabilities are upper limb and dexterity impacts, uh, would be able to gather enough data, enough specific and sensible, uh, markers, uh, to be able to detect it, um, earlier. So that’s one hypothesis, uh, that we have as so far, um, it’s something that is already used by neurologists, um, just to, uh, well monitor.

For, um, their patients and for example, see if there is a deterioration, uh, when we, they put in place some novel treatments to assess, uh, the individual treatment response of patients and for example, switch treatment earlier if we see that there is a negative impact. So maybe that’s one example, uh, much more related to patient care, um, but also research because of course it’s very important for industry players, um, to making sure that they have some specific markers of response to treatment to be able to treat earlier the good patients at the right, at the right time.

Um, so yeah, that could be, uh, maybe some, uh, first, uh, example. And maybe the second example that I could have, um, a recent example that we saw, uh, much more related to psychiatry, uh, where we know also that it’s very, uh, difficult to understand the different, the different biomechanical pathway of, uh, in a psychiatry and much more in acute phases of psychiatry, uh, dimension.

And, um, another example that, uh, that we developed, uh, and is, uh, currently in the clinical validation phase is to being able to identify novel digital biomarkers of, uh, treatment response in a antidepressant, um, populations. The challenge that we wanted to tackle is that, uh, so far when a patient, um, a major depressive patient, um, is, um, uh, being prescribed some antidepressant, uh, medications, uh, we need to wait a long time to be a, being able to really see if, uh, this treatment is, um, efficient on the patient or not.

So the hypothesis is that we developed some vocal biomarkers of the voice of the patient, uh, which we know, uh, are correlated to their depressive state or not. And with the combination of lots of other biomarkers, um, it could, uh, be, we could be able to detect very early if the patient is, uh, uh, answering to, to his treatment, uh, or not.

Those

Naji Gehchan: are great examples. I want to ask you how you’re thinking about, uh, sensors. Voice recognition. How does this get incorporated in patients lives? Because we’re like surrounded by sensors. Right. And what I have like one watch here, another one here, do I have to input the data? And I’m not, I’m not going to go into, unless you want to like all the GDPR data, privacy field of science.

Right. Uh, but really more from a user. If I’m thinking about a user, me as a patient. And the amount of sensors I would have and how I interact with them, how I make sure they’re giving you the information. How are you guys thinking about this? Is it like a new technology, like physical sensors or technologies you’re bringing?

Are you trying to incorporate with whatever the big tech companies have? How do you think about that?

Clarissa Gorin: Well, I believe it’s very depending, uh, on the, well, usage and indication, uh, that you want to achieve, um, for us. Um, it’s very important that, uh, the technological tool is incorporating in the real life of the user.

So, uh, we want to. Capitalize of some tools that the patient already have in his own hand. So that’s why we mainly work on the smartphone of the patient, making possible to transform the smartphone into a really a medical recording system that the patient doesn’t have to, you know, to, to equip and to buy another external sensor that is sometimes difficult to put in, uh, in his own daily life.

Well, if it’s, for example, for a clinical study or for a research based, uh, program, where we know that is, uh, you know, during a certain amount of time, uh, but it’s, uh, only during a few weeks or a few months, we can totally imagine to have like, uh, a very specific, uh, external sensor, very, um, sensitive, very, uh, very, uh, hard tech, uh, product.

But if, uh, we believe into a real life usage as, uh, we are working with in, in Adsenciam, we try to work, uh, with the most, um, you know, known, uh, products of patients at no cost. For patients. It’s very important for us also to achieve equity. Um, and, uh, well, large usage, adoption in the, in the general population.

Uh, so that’s why we, we capitalize on the different sensors that are already embedded in the smartphone. Um, it’s totally possible to work also with, uh, some external sensors that the patient would. Already have, uh, it’s always just a question of interoperability, uh, that, uh, well, Lots of, uh, technical providers can, uh, can put in place.

Um, but if you’re all Just talking about a clinical study, clinical research usage, it’s very difficult different because you, you know, you don’t have all this user experience requirements to put in place as there is no long term adoption and usage questions to to answer to. tool. So, I mean, it really depends on the type of projects, but for real life usage, we totally recommend, and that’s what patients are telling us, uh, to use the, the most easy tools that they already, almost all of them have in their pockets, which is, which is the smartphone or smartwatch or any other, um, known product for, for patients and easy to use.

Naji Gehchan: So Clarissa, I want to give you now a word and I would love your reaction to it. The first one is leadership.

Clarissa Gorin: Um, well, I would say to answer that, I would say, um, leadership is about organizing and training, uh, the collective, uh, to, uh, maybe extract its, uh, best. quintessence, if we can say. Um, it’s always to being, making all the different people, uh, working together to achieve, uh, same and common, uh, objective.

But also, uh, the second word that I would, uh, that I would keep is authenticity. Um, it’s what I try to apply, uh, to, to the best every day, uh, is to, um, well, Staying true to yourself, being transparent about your strengths and areas for development, um, especially in the med tech sector, uh, where there is a lot of uncertainty, um, related to projects or businesses, uh, scenario.

Um, so for me, it’s really not enough to have a great competence expertise, uh, to being a great leader. It’s much more related to. Um, people trusting you and trusting your integrity. Um, and also feel a direct and personal connection with you. This is why I place a great emphasis on the importance of, um, you know, sharing passion, personal, personal information, um, with the team.

Um, because, uh, I believe, yeah, like authenticity and confidence, um, is very important because otherwise, um, people will be reluctant to, to take risk and to, uh, to, to work alongside, uh, with you. So, yeah, I would say like, uh, this, uh, It’s three aspects, if I would say, um, organizing and training the collective together, but also, uh, bringing more intensity, uh, authenticity, sorry, and, um, and also, uh, sharing some, uh, uh, always, uh, personal information and, uh, and gaining trust of the people that are around, uh, around you.

Naji Gehchan: The second word is diversity. ,

Clarissa Gorin: um, diversity, I’m sorry if it’s not a, a single word . It’s, that’s fine. That’s fine. Sometimes it’s a, it’s a bit, uh, longer. Um, but diversity, uh, specifically in the, in the MedTech, uh, sector, I would say that, uh. Very important, and also for leader working in this sector, is to making sure that the different projects that we develop are alongside this different diversity that patients can have.

So yeah, diversity and inclusion, I would say in terms of both words. Um, we know that for a long time, uh, this high tech products, uh, were mainly developed, um, for well profitable populations and, uh, well, not, uh, used by all of the different. diverse population, uh, that were targeted. Um, and I know, uh, that, uh, the medtech sector can really help improve, uh, such a diversity and inclusion in the healthcare system.

For example, um, capitalize of such a techno capitalize on such technologies to Improve the diversity in clinical trials could be very important. Um, for example, you know, like adding some new device that could make able some, um, uh, participants to to join the clinical studies that are living abroad that are living in, uh, or the types of population that were not Principally targeted in, uh, in clinical research, uh, can be, uh, important.

Naji Gehchan: I love this and I love this great example. I’m working heavily on diversity in clinical trials with, with my team. So yeah, we can, we can have another session specifically on that. Yeah,

Clarissa Gorin: totally. Well, I really believe that, uh, well new, new texts and, uh, for example, as such a, well, smartphone based or like connected device, um, to be included as a, You know, like digital endpoints in clinical studies could have a great impact in diversity and inclusion of different populations that we usually don’t see in clinical trials of, of a drug, of new drugs, clinical trials.

Naji Gehchan: The third one is blockchain.

Clarissa Gorin: Blockchain. So, well, I would say, uh, a lot of, uh, a lot of noise, uh, a lot of, um, uh, how to say, um, Lots of, uh, I don’t remember how to say, uh, uh, a lot of hope. Yeah. Sorry. A lot of hope that was, uh, that was done in, uh, in the health healthcare sector, uh, regarding, uh, the blockchain.

Um, I remember that, uh, when we started, uh, on this first project, uh, on the fake medicine, uh, um, project, uh, we were hoping that, uh, such tool could could, you know, like help, uh, tracking the different, uh, path of the supply chain of, uh, drug systems. We believed, um, because it was also from the financial, um, industry that it could help, uh, well, tackle some, uh, specific breach of information related to drug distribution, um, process.

Um, but so far, uh, not a lot of, uh, well, scenarios and applicable, um, solutions. Um, so yeah, I would say a lot of hope, uh, at that time. Um, but still some, uh, um, some scenarios of specific projects, uh, to, to be, to be developed.

Naji Gehchan: The last word is spread love and organizations.

Clarissa Gorin: Well, spread love in organization, um, I mean, for me, much, much, uh, related to, uh, what we discussed so far to, um, well, promote, uh, well, authenticity and also, uh, promote, um, uh, trust around people, um, by.

giving them the opportunity also to discuss, to talk, to have their own point of view in our process. That’s really something that we try to put in place, um, at, uh, at Atsensium. Um, you know, it’s, it’s very, um, It’s very, uh, scaling dynamic in this health tech, uh, startup environment. Um, when we know that there is, uh, some more junior profiles that are coming, some tech profiles that are not, uh, always, um, Very well known about the healthcare sector.

And for me, a spread love in an organization would say like giving the opportunity to each to give their own point of view, uh, as part of their process, as part of our process, methodology, uh, just making sure, um, that even if it’s, you know, there is not this lots of, uh, yeah, she, uh, in between the different people in the organization, but making sure that, uh, All the, the different voice of people I heard and, uh, also, uh, putting trust into this, uh, different people.

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom, uh, Carissa, for healthcare leaders around the world?

Clarissa Gorin: Um, when I would say that, uh, for me, and I, I’m not a great example of it, uh, leadership is not, uh, innate gift or like, uh, superman, uh, abilities, uh, that people are born with. Um, I believe it’s really, you know, a journey of self discovery.

Self development, um, much more related to willingness to embrace, uh, learning, learning new things. Um, it involves usually like stepping beyond, uh, comfort zones. Um, maybe immersing in, uh, unfamiliar territory as I did at the very beginning of my professional path, uh, you know, like coming from the classical, uh, pharma industry sector, uh, believing, uh, I would be, uh, uh, joining a marketing or commercial path to a new technology, blockchain, digital biomarker, artificial intelligence, uh, which for me was really new I didn’t have, and it.

It could only be your life. I’m telling you that I always had this, uh, you know, this, uh, mindset for tech and, uh, and nerd profile, which is not the case at all. Uh, so yeah, immersing in, uh, unfamiliar territory and, uh, maybe navigating, um, challenges to, well, Ultimately inspire and try to guide others. Um, I would say that are, well, yeah, the most important aspects of, um, such leaders.

And in particular in the, the med tech sector, uh, where we know, uh, once again, that there is a lot of uncertainty, uh, it’s really a constantly involving, evolving and dynamic, um, environment. Um, so very important to, uh, well, Step aside and try a new thing to, to try to, um, to collect new also, uh, inputs and insights from others to, to, to try to guide them at the end.

Naji Gehchan: What a great way to, uh, finish our chat. I love how you framed it. Leadership is a journey of self-development. That’s a great charge for all of us as leaders. Thank you so much, uh, for joining me today and, uh, for this great conversation.

Clarissa Gorin: Well, thanks to you, uh, thanks for the opportunity also to, um, once again to to share my, uh.

Well, young experience, but, uh, I hope, uh, interesting for others. Um, there is a lot of opportunity in the med tech sector, a lot to do. Uh, there is still new things that we, we, we identify and that we, we believe could be done in the next future. So thanks again for the opportunity and for the really nice chat with you.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform.

Thank you all for listening to Spreadlove in Organizations podcast! More episodes in partnership with ESCP Business School are available on spreadloveio.com or on your preferred podcast app. Follow “spreadlove in organizations” wherever you listen to podcasts and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement our World so desperately needs.

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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host, joined today by Moktar Diallo founder and CEO of Mangabey. Dedicated to transforming global pharma data interactions, Moktar brings over two decades of expertise in creating cutting-edge business intelligence systems, leading change management and transformative data architecture for multinational commercial operations. At Mangabey, Moktar leads a team of data and analytics experts, driving commercial data operations focusing on lean, open, and unified data ecosystems. Moktar’s impact extends beyond technology and operations; he is passionate about helping top-level business leaders navigate enterprise-wide change. Prior to Mangabey, Moktar’s successfully led Business Intelligence teams at Sanofi and Bristol Myers Squibb.

Moktar, It is such a pleasure to have you with me today!

Can you first share with us your personal story? What brought you to the pharma industry and being passionate about data in healthcare?

Moktar Diallo: Um, so first of all, thanks for inviting me to your podcast. And I’m very delighted to, you know, to discuss with you today and, uh, and share some of my experience.

Um, You know, starting with pharma, um, I’ve started in pharma 20 years ago, as you, as you mentioned, and it was pretty random. Um, originally I, um, before that I was working in data, uh, at some, um, after school, I had some interim jobs, um, You know, um, trying to, uh, basically earn my life. I, uh, I was kind of a dropout school.

Uh, I had the talent in, um, in computing that I’ve developed very early in my, uh, my life, very young. Um, I was good at school, but, um, when I left my home and, uh, and started to go to high school, um, I started to get prepared for, um, Uh, you know, engineering school, but, um, the level was too high for me in a way, uh, the pressure was really high.

I was far away from my family and, uh, and I had a kind of, um, kind of a dual, um, way of, of being. I could be very serious, really hardworking and very determined to, uh, to succeed in, uh, in getting good marks and, uh, and so on. But I was a kind of a rebel as well, um, and, uh, trying to, uh, to figure out what would be my, uh, my future, uh, in a different way.

And, um, so I left school and I started to, to earn my life working, uh, in different places and, uh, at some point in time, uh, I came back to, to data and IT, uh, working in different companies. Um, You know, I started to work at, uh, Shep, DHL and, uh, and different places, uh, that, uh, that would be, uh, you know, calling me for interim jobs.

And after a while, I, uh, finally started to work in, uh, in a pharma company called, uh, uh, Boots Healthcare. And, and Boots is a British based company, but they had an affiliate in France and we were selling, uh, uh, OTC products. And that’s where I started to, uh, to get accounted with, uh, with data, with analytics and, and so on.

Um, and after that, uh, the opportunity to work at BMS, as you mentioned, and go there, uh, in Paris, um, working with different affiliates, um, living to the UK for two years, um, and then back to France working for Sanofi. Uh, that’s where I’ve really, uh, uh, Um, you know, build my vision around what I was doing and the first thing that really struck me was The amount of waste of money that could happen in those companies to do something that was, uh, potentially, uh, you know, optimizable to an extent that was unseen.

Um, and, uh, I was seeing millions spent in project and so on where, you know, there would be opportunities to optimize and do a better job. And, um, And for me, we’re talking about, uh, the life of patients. We are talking about medicines. We are talking about health care. And the data was at the core of it. And, um, the, if you want, uh, the lack of, uh, of professionalism, the, the lack of, uh, of focus on making this data, uh, right and, uh, and optimize the cost managing it, um, coming from where I’m coming, you know, I’m, I’m coming from, uh, uh, very modest, uh, neighborhood.

Um, that was for me almost, uh, indecent to see this. And, um, and as I had a kind of a talent managing, uh, data, doing, uh, some IT work and, um, and building tools and algorithms and, uh, and, uh, and computing work. I dedicated my, uh, my time to, to improve that, generate savings and, and trying to do a better job than, than what I was seeing at the time.

And, um, and finally, after that, I’ve, I’ve made that my own business with Mongabay and, uh, the story.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks for sharing this. I’m intrigued. You said. Coming from mother’s neighborhood and you shared your upbringing and now leading data, a data company in healthcare, which that specifically it’s indecent to see how the waste of money and even practically the waste of data management and those large organizations.

Can you share a little bit more? Why what you saw and why you said it’s indecent and linking it to your background as you share it

Moktar Diallo: Yeah, I mean, it’s a strong word, but um, I wouldn’t say that now, uh, but back in time when I was 27 and uh, And I was trying to, to make my, my space. I was working really hard to, to build systems and, uh, and they were projects, um, similar projects around, uh, and people, they were almost building those projects to, um, to do the things, the way they were done, uh, and the things, the, if you want the way they, they had to be done, uh, in a, in a corporate environment.

So you set up a budget, you, you ask people, uh, to run a project and, uh, and distance to become very large. And, and basically doing data was a project, whereas people were working on data every day. And, uh, some of those people, they were building a real, uh, knowledge on how to do this in a way that was way.

cheaper and way more organized and those people, they were really undermined in the organizations. Um, so it was, uh, somehow it was me, uh, but, uh, the more I started to know about the organization, the more I was working with countries and different places. I was connecting with similar people. They were always the people in the middle of the organization, Um, you know, doing kind of 80 work data work, but that was crunching.

That was the way we were calling those people. The data crunchers 20 years ago. I mean, 15 years ago. And, um, and for me, that was, uh, it was difficult to see, uh, big companies coming and, uh, and running those projects for one year, two years. And at the end of those projects, people telling, okay, we, we tried, we learned a lot.

Yeah. We didn’t do anything with, uh, with those millions invested, uh, but at least we learned why those guys, uh, managing the everyday data and trying to do their best to automate and to serve their, their colleagues. They were very undermined. So this, you know, gap between we need data, that’s the shiny thing.

And, and the way people really working on it, we are treated on a daily basis. That gap was, uh, to me, um, a real, um, I mean, that was a real, uh, uh, issue.

Naji Gehchan: I love this. And it’s really what you shared since the very beginning, right? You’re a rebel and a smart, determined student. I feel within, within the work and what you, what you saw. there was this gap. So how did you deal with this gap? I imagine this is one of your leadership learning, working from corporations to now building a company where data is at the heart.

And certainly what you said is definitely true. Many times we talk about data, but at the end of the day, it’s, it’s, I love how you framed it. It’s a project. Um, well, our companies these days are more and more putting data at the heart of what we do and value it and really valuing it. But certainly for a while, it was more a project that someone would put and someone would stop.

So how did you deal with this to now building a company and what are your leadership learning along your journey?

Moktar Diallo: I mean, um, I had to be hands on. I had to go to the, uh, to the ground of, uh, of the needs. Um, to the ground of, um, of the data itself, I really had to go really to the level, uh, the most granular level.

Um, so I had to build very strong knowledge as to what is the data that exists? Um, what is the need that is out there? And what can I bring that is, uh, superior in terms of experience? Should it be faster access to the data, uh, best, uh, or better visualization? Um, fancy and, uh, an unseen, uh, indicator. Uh, I think that building that knowledge and that know how was really the base.

But the second is, uh, is to value the work you do the really, um, at that, at the time I started data was not, uh, the shiny thing that, uh, people are talking about today. Um, at that time, no CEO of a company would talk about data, no VP, no one would talk about data as such. And it’s very recently that this started, but at that time, no one was believing in this.

Uh, and, um, So I had to believe in that. I had to believe in the value of data as a piece of communication, as data, as a, as really, uh, uh, uh, basically the, um, the glue, uh, that connects people to each other in a modern organization. Um, really had to believe this and to see this very clearly to, to believe enough and suffer the way you suffer because you’re not valorized in the, on the work you do with data.

At that time, uh, that’s second and third, um, to work with early adopters. So I had the chance to, um, to work with people who were believing in this. So, um, uh, some, uh, some of my managers, uh, uh, uh, Delphine Aguilera Caron. Uh, Ron Cooper, uh, Daniel Kinney, uh, those people from different horizons, uh, some of them, uh, uh, French, but, uh, working in the UK, some of them US people because US guys are, are way more advanced.

In the way they see data than people in Europe as well. There is a cultural difference. Um, at that time, the U. S. was already quite advanced as well. Uh, versus Europe talking about data and leveraging data for for superior results. And I think those are the three elements really building the knowledge.

Don’t know how believing in, uh, in the in the vision, setting the vision and really be, uh, be loyal to that. Yeah. Vision and, uh, and, and third, uh, working with people who believe in you, uh, because you cannot, um, I wouldn’t be where I am today without the support of, of those key people I’ve mentioned and others, uh, a lot of others who share the vision and who love the know how.

Naji Gehchan: That’s a great framing, uh, Moctar. When you look back, really starting your company now, would you do anything differently?

Moktar Diallo: Plenty. Um, yeah, I mean, uh,

I think it’s important when you, when you start a company to really strongly believe in the value you bring on the table. Um, because when you strongly believe, uh, in that value, If you want to, um, you don’t, you don’t sell it in a way that would be detrimental to yourself in the future. Um, because you know, when you start a company, you’re not necessarily sure of the value of what you’re doing and you get a customer and, uh, and when you start to have a customer, everything the customer is telling you is, uh, is, is incredible.

And you don’t necessarily protect yourself of the consequences of some of the lines in some contracts and, uh, some, um, if you want, um, behaviors that you undermine and so on, um, and the return to reality can be very, very difficult to manage. So I think it’s important to really strongly believe in the value to be proud of it.

Uh, and protect yourself as much as possible. It’s not easy. It’s easier to say that after you started and, and, and seen the issues, but at least it’s important to be conscious of the weaknesses that are there, uh, in the relationship with, with clients, uh, as opposed to discover them, uh, down the road and, uh, and be a little bit naive.

Naji Gehchan: So let’s talk now about data. Your company focuses on lean, open, unified data ecosystems. Can you help us understand what do you mean by this? And what is your personal vision and beliefs around data?

Moktar Diallo: So, you know, the data we’re working with is, uh, the data is like a fluid. It’s like, uh, it’s like water. Uh, it’s like a liquid and something that needs to be consumed. It, it, it comes from different sources and, and gets together, uh, at some point in time for basically feeding, uh, you know, business insights and, uh, and actions.

Um, and to correctly pilot an organization, which is supposed to be one body. You need to assemble all this knowledge. That’s the basic thing. You need to assemble all this knowledge at some point in time. And an organization has this magical effect of, of moving different parts together. Um, but, uh, but you know, the brain is centralized somehow in an organization.

So the brain at some point in time needs to receive all the information. You can have the arm, the legs, the everything moving around. It’s important as much as possible to be able to concentrate that information. So I, I’m a strong believer in, uh, in data unification, um, as opposed to, uh, uh, data silos. And one thing that, uh, that happens when you have silos is that, um, instead of, Of having, uh, data being a tool of performance, which it is when it is, uh, transparently shared and, and, uh, and, uh, you know, assembled, it becomes a, an instrument of self power when it’s remained, uh, in silo and so on.

So people tend to keep the data for themselves. Because they, they believe that, uh, this piece of intelligence is what makes their work more efficient. And I think it’s not a modern idea. Uh, we are, we are, uh, more and more, uh, changing that. And technology as well is, is pushing for a different, uh, path. We see, uh, generative AI.

Generative AI doesn’t work with, uh, um, with big data. It works with diverse data. The more diversity you have, the, the, the better the intelligence can be. And that’s, and that’s, uh, diversity comes from assembling data from different pieces of the organization, as opposed to keep them in silos and, and, uh, where they basically, uh, uh, stay a little bit poor, uh, we can say the same for human being and all those things you need to, you know, mix, um, uh, informations for, uh, getting the, uh, through, uh, richness.

Naji Gehchan: I certainly agree with this. It’s fascinating how much data is actually siloed, you know, within our organization. And when we think about healthcare, the non connectivity of the different data, you know, I’m thinking back when I was chief marketing officer and we’re starting to do some pool databases and the complexity of making data connect.

And more recently, in France, I’m sure you’re aware, all the work the government is doing to connect data and have some medical shared platform and databases and the complexity of doing this, even though We would argue the assurance maladie, so the healthcare system in France has all the data for us, but still nothing is talking to nothing for us to be able to predict and do better healthcare.

Any thoughts about those? And probably Pivoting from this to what’s exciting about the future if we get to a unified, uh, data system.

Moktar Diallo: Yeah, it’s, um, it’s incredible how, um, artisanal, um, how, um, uh, how much crafting is behind data. I mean, people don’t imagine how much it is of manual work, of, uh, uh, human interaction to make, uh, to make sense of even raw data and build those assets.

I think that’s, uh, that’s something that people don’t necessarily realize that it is a tedious work to, to do. To create a database, to, to work on it and so on. Uh, we tend to see the really, the the last piece, which is the, the insights and the, the, the moment the data is, is refined. Um, and that’s what is, uh, is incredibly important, is the fact that it is a real effort.

A real conscious effort to make this happen. It won’t happen. Um, automatically, um, we, we work at Mongabay. We work on a lot of strategies to make that happen, to facilitate that transformation so that, um, it’s, it’s effortless if you want, but, but the reality of the work of data management is a really tedious work.

Um, especially when the data doesn’t have. Uh, the same format, uh, especially when the data hasn’t been built in a way that it would connect automatically with the, all the other pieces, all this work of unification or stitching together different sources of information is something that needs to be done.

Even that work needs to be done in a certain way. There are sciences to transform organizations and drive them towards the unification of their information systems. It’s not only an IT work that says, okay, we’re going to take a database, uh, you know, like, and structure it and make it happen. Um, if it was only this, the organization would be completely aligned for decades.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah, no, for sure. And I, and as you said, like, this is the, the heavy work that needs to get done. All executives, we get excited with like, Oh, we clicked on something and we saw it right. Like data visualization is obviously what excites us. And you know, you get. Whatever you need as an info, but really realizing the value that companies like yours or internal teams that work on those data to make sure that this data is relevant.

Well done. You have categorization. Well, all the things that you guys do is many times, as you said, in the very beginning of this episode. Many times not valued or not even seen. And it’s all the people actually working to make sure that those are relevant, clean, correct, in the right categories, well transcripted, etc.

is a key part for you to be able to visualize fast and most importantly to get the right vision to make the decisions.

Moktar Diallo: At the moment, just to rebound on that, at the moment, we, we start to see the masses as this is a subject that starts to be interesting for organization, we start to see the masses around what’s the cost of data.

Um, how can we maintain. Especially in the post pandemic where, you know, costs needs to be reduced and data is exploited because of digitalization and so on. We have an explosion of the amount of data to be managed by the organizations. And at the same time, there is a need to reduce the cost of this data.

Data represent 5 percent of the revenue of companies. So that’s a huge amount of, uh, of, uh, of, uh, Of basically financial transactions around data acquisition around data management around data consumption, and that needs to be kept at the level that that allows, you know, to basically maintain and contain the explosion of this data, and that becomes a problem for organizations to make sure that they can still.

Uh, you know grabs the the the value of data because if data goes in silos We discussed that before you cannot really grasp the benefit of it But the cost of putting that together is so high that you need to work on Optimizing that cost so this is becoming a very strategic issue for Not only for pharma, I would say pharma perhaps a little bit more than other industries, um, but this is a real general problem for, uh, for any organizations.

Naji Gehchan: So I’m going to give you now a word. And I would love your reaction to it. The first one is leadership.

Moktar Diallo: Loneliness. Oh, say more. For me, leadership is a lot of loneliness, um, thinking, thinking, thinking, um, and, um, and that’s, yeah, that’s the first reaction that I felt, um, about leadership. Um, you listen a lot, uh, you think a lot, um, you, you suffer a lot.

But meanwhile, it’s extremely rewarding.

What about change?

For me, change is bringing joy. I think there is nothing more important than change. Change is what makes people go further. You know, the routine of things is what is slowing down. So sometimes we need to slow down and enjoy the routine. Uh, but change is really for me an accelerator,

health equity, um, you know, have my roots in, uh, in Africa. Um, so, uh, I think that, uh, there is a duty, uh, human duty to bring health everywhere on earth. Um, and I believe this is, uh, one of the missions, uh, we would love, uh, uh, pharma, perhaps being a little bit more, uh, Um, vocal about, uh, and that’s, uh, that’s something that is still, uh, you know, a coming issue.

Um,

Naji Gehchan: do you think data and all that we’re saying generative AI, all the access to, to, to those preventive and also predictive? Models to better health care will help from this or do you see it as actually the data that we have is not representative of all the communities and the word and thus is biased by itself.

How do you think about those?

Moktar Diallo: We talked before about the fact that data should be raw data or intelligent data because at the end You know, it’s recycles. So, you know, what we, what we get from GPT is new data that can be used to feed another system. So data at the end, as we said, uh, if it’s in silo, uh, it will be an instrument, if it’s transparently shared, it will be a tool of performance.

And, um, and as the same for, uh, for, uh, you know, the, the most, uh, advanced way to, uh, to produce data. Um, if it is shared, um, it will become a good thing to spread more equity, more, let’s say, um, really to bring more power to empower people who have not necessarily the capacity to, uh, to get access to data.

So I think it. It goes in the right direction anyway, uh, there are dangers to it. But, uh, at the end of the day, we talk about sharing knowledge and, uh, knowledge is, uh, the most powerful, uh, um, let’s say asset of, uh, of any human being.

Naji Gehchan: The last one is spread love and organizations.

Moktar Diallo: I mean, transparency is extremely important. That’s the way I see it, uh, to have the courage of, uh, of being transparent and honest. Um, I believe is the base for, uh, for, uh, healthy and sane relationship. Not always easy, not always easy. You don’t do this. You don’t do everything day one. You know, uh, even love needs to be built, uh, as well, uh, because, uh, we, no one is, uh, they won’t, they will never be perfect love.

They will be always people learning to, to live with each other. So, um,

but I think transparency is a, is a good way to, uh, to accelerate this

Naji Gehchan: and your final word of wisdom, uh, Mokhtar for healthcare leaders around the world.

Moktar Diallo: I mean, for me, uh, I strongly believe about, uh, the fact that, uh, the models organization will be clear about their data, the more they will be doing, uh, best decisions, good decisions, um, healthy decisions, uh, as opposed to, uh, To, you know, fill the gaps with, uh, with, uh, guess second guess and, and biased, uh, point of view.

Uh, so, you know, understanding the data, sharing the information, the analysis, and, uh, and, uh, having an unbiased view on everything, um, is the, the, the best way to, uh, I believe, uh, be a good leader.

Naji Gehchan: Well, Moktar, thank you so much for being with me today and for this great chat.

Moktar Diallo: Thanks, Naji. Thank you so much for the discussion.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host, having the pleasure to be joined today by Kate Isaacs scholar, teacher, and strategy advisor who designs organizations and stakeholder partnerships for people and places to thrive. Kate draws on design thinking, system dynamics, and developmental psychology to help leaders create conditions for collective intelligence, agile performance, and transformative change. Kate is a Senior Lecturer at the MIT Sloan where I had the pleasure to take her course on nimble organizations. Her work on Nimble Leadership was actually selected for publication in HBR at 100: The Most Influential and Innovative Articles from Harvard Business Review’s First Century! Conrgats! Kate also consults with organizations in all sectors on strategy and culture change, and she specializes in designing peer-based learning experiences and facilitating multi-stakeholder collaborations. Kate is a frequent author on topics of leadership, innovation, systems change, multi-stakeholder collaboration, and corporate sustainability for publications including the Harvard Business Review, the Sloan Management Review!

Kate, It is so great to see you again and have you with me today!

Kate Isaacs: Great to be here. Thanks for inviting me on.

Naji Gehchan: Your class is still living in my head with the different great frameworks to make us better as teams, some I applied already! But before we dig into your research work on organizations, can you tell us more about your personal story and how you became this incredible thought leader, thinker, and change maker?

Kate Isaacs: Well, thank you for the kind words. I am happy to share a little bit about my journey. I am really driven by a passion for Connecting people to who they are and their deeper purpose and, and to each other and to living and expressing that deeper purpose, I grew up, um, all over the country, our family moved around a lot and I was always struck by the fact that.

The world is such a beautiful place and human beings are capable of such extraordinary creativity and beauty and we are also capable of such destruction and evil and I saw those two things happening for whatever reason I was just always very aware of our capacities for beauty and good and evil and ugliness and destruction.

And it was really hard for me to hold those two things simultaneously. Um, it was created a lot of tension for me as a child where I’d be out, um, exploring the world. I love nature and suddenly I couldn’t walk on my front lawn because it had been sprayed with chemicals. And they said, keep off the lawn.

And, um, there was all sorts of. trash in the woods where I like to walk and things like that just got me thinking at an early age about, um, who are people and how is it that we’re capable of such different expressions. And furthermore, then as I grew up and got older and, um, I was studying biology, um, because as I said, I was interested in nature and the natural world.

I thought I would be a forest ecologist or a marine biologist. Or something like that. Um, and, and as I went along in my career in education, I, I was more and more interested in, in human beings and how do we function and how do I help, um, help enable people to connect with the part of us that is capable of Capable of such extraordinary things and such creativity.

So I became a social psychologist and work with, with leaders and organizations, and just as if, um, just like you, if you work with an individual or work with myself, starting with myself and. Change my paradigm or my ability to express my purpose and clear some of the cobwebs out internally so I can, um, do more of what I feel I’m here to do on the planet in my lifetime.

Um, that’s like a ripple effect that goes out from each individual and enables them to design and lead better teams and design and lead better organizations and design and lead better societies. So that’s really what motivates me. It,

Naji Gehchan: I can’t, but ask you how, like this question you asked in the beginning, I really got off every single morning, unfortunately, with the craziness and horror happening in the world, acts of hate.

And then you have tremendous act of love and beauty. I constantly ask myself this, like how, so did you figure it out with your work or how can we at least impact our small environments to make it? Better and be only from one side of the equation. I’m interested to learn since this was really what drove you to where you are today.

Kate Isaacs: Well, I, I think I’ve learned a lot of tools along the way, uh, for how to connect people or help people connect with that inside them. And all of us that is capable of, of incredible. Creative things. And I would say, first of all, that we all have that. We all have that inside ourselves. And moment by moment, we’re always making choices to align with that part of ourselves.

I would call it the bigger self or the bigger self. You know, depending on on your belief systems. Um, some people are very spiritual about it. Some people aren’t. But, um, I think in all of us, we all know that we’re capable of those acts of compassion, generosity, beauty, creativity, where we’re operating at our best.

And every single human being has that as our birthright. And so, um, one of There are many ways to get there, but one of the things that I think works the fastest is to simply practice a spirit of appreciation and gratitude for what’s right about myself, about others, about what’s right in the world. Um, and there’ve, there’ve been a lot of studies on, you know, monks who practice compassion and, and their brain, what happens to their brains when we, when we practice the, um, active compassion and gratitude.

And it, it literally changes our neural networks and our wiring, um, in our brains and, and in our bodies. And so we, I love there’s, um, a kind of fad out there, um, that some. Talking about the idea of glimpses. So everyone’s talked about triggers and things that trigger us, and that’s common in our parlance now.

And now there’s a, there’s a new thing about glimmers or glimpses, um, and those are the things that, um, in our lives on a day to day basis that are really working well, where something comes together and it’s happening and we experience a sense of joy, pleasure, ecstasy, um, calm, peace, relaxation, and Focusing on those things and what enables us to experience those things, whether it’s how we design our lives or our mental attitudes or the care that we take with our relationships, um, you know, in our lives.

What are the things that feed into those glimmers and glimpses and how can we expand those experiences so that we’re, we’re living more and coming more and more from that place. And those, those. Experiences.

Naji Gehchan: Those are great, actionable tips. We can we can do. And you talked in the beginning about the deeper purpose.

I remember also in your class, you talk about the purpose with big P for for us personally and organization. Um, what is it if you can, like, tell us a little bit how to get to this purpose? And then as leaders and organizations, how can we make this really live every single day? Despite what’s happening, not only in the work, but also in the work itself and operationally every day.

Kate Isaacs: Well, the first thing I would say is, is take a little time, whatever time you have, it could be just 10 minutes. Once a month, we’re all busy and have a lot on our plates, but carve out a little bit of time to think about what is it that gets you up in the morning? Why do I get out of bed and go to work?

Good, really good question is what’s the contribution that I want to make? Um, some of those questions. Need our attention. And when we’re too busy just running around and doing the things that we do, and we don’t allow any time. Most of us don’t allow much time for that kind of reflection. Um, but you people are, you can be surprised how little it takes just 10 minutes to journal and get off your screen for a moment and get out a piece of paper and just journal about it, about some of those questions.

Um, and, and then. See if you can get it down into a single statement and put a period at the end and, and see if that fits. And I know I’ve done this and over time that purpose statement has changed and morphed and transitioned as I’ve gone along. And it’s, it’s really a guiding North Star for, for me and all of us.

really unique. It’s like a fingerprint. Um, we all have a unique purpose and signature that’s a product of our own unique configuration of our passions, our capacities and talents, how we grew up. It’s totally different for each of us.

Naji Gehchan: And the power of when you connect your personal purpose to what you do every single day, and the work you do, and then the organization is just massive.

And you literally manage to make things move forward for the, for the work, for the society. If I go now into more nimble organizations, something you’ve worked on, you’re an expert on, um, and Cultivating nimble organizations. Can you first tell us a little bit more? What does nimble mean?

Kate Isaacs: The idea of nimble is about being responsive to the world and being able to, as one organization that we studied in depth, WL Gore says, to organize around opportunities so that if you’re nimble, you are You, you’re doing your sense making into the world.

That’s another thing we talk a lot about at MIT, uh, concept that’s been really popularized by my colleague, Debra Ancona. So you’ve got your feelers out. You’re looking out to the world and sensing what’s going on, what’s changing, and you’re making sense of that in a way that is aligned with your organization’s purpose.

Also, it’s values. Values are qualities of character that guide how you do things. Purpose is why you’re why, as Simon Sinek says, values are equally important, um, because they, they tell you how to make the decisions, especially under pressure. So if you’re nimble, you’re making, you’re out there, you’re making sense of what’s going on in the world.

You’re bringing that information in your. Using your purpose, your values, your strategic priorities to then decide how are we going to respond to changing markets, technologies, trends, political trends, things are moving very fast. And it’s, um, often looks like a foggy road out there when you’re a leader looking to figure out how to move forward.

Um, but if you’re doing that sensemaking and some of the other things we talk about around combination of. Visioning also and executing and innovating and also relating. That’s another really key leadership capacity. You and I are relating right now. We’re having a conversation. You really need to have all of those capabilities in your organization, but the sense making and relating are often.

Underappreciated as leadership capabilities. Usually when we think about leadership, we think about the heroic leader, the person who’s visioning and inventing, um, the sense making and relating are so important, especially these days when we’re in a stakeholder world, and so many people are looking to organizations around our can we trust them?

Are they being transparent? Are they leading from values? Um, And so being able to, to do that external and internal dance as I’m talking about, um, and use your purpose values to, um, orient how you’re going to respond to your sense making that you’re doing is, is really key and we see that in nimble organizations.

They return again and again to those purpose values. Um, as guiding North stars for how they do respond.

Naji Gehchan: So I love this and it’s and you’re going correct me if I’m wrong, I think you’re going beyond just this idea of agility and innovation and you’re touching more aspects of the purpose, the social responsibility of the organization.

So do you feel this is nimble organization is really for all type of organization? Or is there pieces where, like, you know, sometimes we think of agile as you have, like, hierarchical structures and then people kind of co working, brainstorming, bringing innovation. Is it that or is it like even broader when you think about Nimble and more as a concept to improve the society as a whole versus just profits?

Kate Isaacs: Well, we, we studied organizations that are high innovation organizations. So I’ll caveat what I’m saying around just to say that, um, so Nimble is about being adaptive and responsive and, and being able to change. At the same time, um, you do need to be able to execute with consistency and regularity and predictability.

So, um, that is also really important and organizations need to be able to do both. Um, there’s this idea of ambidexterity. So, uh, I would say though, that there are the, some of the principles of Nimble are applicable in both kinds of contexts, whether you’re in an industry that’s. Well, all industries are changing, but, but if you’re part of the business is, you know, highly regulated, um, you know, and you’re doing the same kind of task over and over and over, you need to do exactly the same thing.

Um, the principles are still applicable and that fundamentally nimble is about. Uh, pushing decision making authority down as far as you can in the organization and giving people autonomy to make as many decisions as they can in line with how the organization is expecting to carry out its strategy strategic priorities.

So in order to do that. In order to free people up and give people more autonomy to do the business of the organization, there have to be some guardrails in place. Now, command and control bureaucracies give people big binders of rules or the, you know, or people are expected to just do what the leadership says.

That takes away people’s autonomy. But if you, but you still need to have some guiding guard rails in whatever context you’re in. So what do you replace the big thick binder with or the command and control from the CEO down? Well, you replace that with, um, in some parts, purpose and values and, and expected behavior.

you also replace it with, um, that, that’s, that’s part of what replaces the thick binders. If you tell people, this is what we stand for as an organization, we expect you to behave in line with these values and purpose in, in our strategic priorities. And if everybody understands that, you have a better chance at having people.

Who are autonomous, make decisions in line with what the organization wants. The other thing is that, um, nimble or organizations, if you assume that people are autonomous, you assume that they can make their own decisions. And so you can’t just tell them, um, what to do. You have to, in a sense, get them on board and engage them, enroll them in your vision.

If you’re the CEO or the senior leader. So there’s an element of. Persuasion and assuming that you have to get people’s buy in one way or the other. So a lot of leaders and nimble organizations spend a lot of time explaining why we’re making this decision. You know, senior leaders still have to make decisions for the on behalf of the organization.

We’re going into this market or we’re shutting down this plant. So those are decisions that have to be made. It’s not a democracy here. Um, and they tend to explain why. Because people want to know. And, um, there’s just a lot more transparency, listening. Um, and I think those principles are applicable, um, no matter what kind of business that you’re in.

Sure.

Naji Gehchan: And, you know, the majority of my audience is in healthcare. So I, what you were saying, highly regulated. certainly part of what we do, but also the things would apply for, for sure. Uh, so when you’re thinking about those, you talked about cultures, how senior leaders, uh, we talk about it. I’m interested to learn more from you.

How do you think about culture at the corporate level, for example, as an organization and also the. cultures within the teams and organization. I’m sure you’ve seen differences. Is there a way to say like, this is an overarching culture, or do you still see subcultures that can be actually not really what the organization is putting out as values and cultures for itself?

Kate Isaacs: I think you’re, you’re absolutely put your finger on it in terms of there are many subcultures and organizations all over the place. Culture is not a homogenous thing at all. At the same time, they’re off. There is a dominant culture in the organization that, um. You can, you can usually pick up, um, you can usually pick up and you can actually diagnose it.

You can measure culture in different ways and, um, depending on who is leading a particular unit or function or team, that individual, it’s the ripple effect of. Of, of an individual’s fingerprint or footprint, if you will, on a, on a team or a unit, whoever they are as an individual will influence the, the dynamic of the whole collective and, and how they lead meetings, how inclusive they are, um, whether they’re more directive or, um, solicit more input before making a decision, um, those, everybody’s very different.

And so the. different cultures will form around different folks who are leading different areas of the organization. And there is still usually a dominant, pretty dominant culture, those subcultures sit in inside of. I’m curious what’s behind the question.

Naji Gehchan: Well, there is, because I think we discussed this also in the class, things, you know, written on the wall and then in the water.

And, you know, I feel like there is more and more organization now looking into. Ensuring whatever culture or purpose, uh, are really kind of within what we’re looking at as a society these days, right, like incorporating social impact, incorporating really why we wake up every morning. Uh, and I’m wondering, like, is this sufficient and what is the roles actually of different leaders within this company and each one of us as a leader on the subcultures we actually create, even sometimes without realizing.

So this is, this is why I was asking it.

Kate Isaacs: I love this territory and it gets to something I’ve been thinking a lot about lately, which is an organization can articulate its purpose, its values, and, and, and have a culture that may or may not be representing that. Hopefully it does. And you still have all of the individuals who have their own individual purpose and values and.

So it’s what we’re not trying to do is to get everyone to say that the organization’s purpose and values are my own as an individual. Um, what, what this is really about is if you think about the organization as like a, uh, an attractor magnetic. Putting out a, a tractor beam or, uh, maybe that’s not such a good analogy because we don’t want to think of ourselves as aliens being teleported up.

But, but like, uh, putting out a magnetic field or, you know, a, a lamp in the darkness, if you will, and the organization broadcasts. These are the values, the purpose we stand for. Um, Leaders back that up with their actions. Um, the incentives are aligned, et cetera. And then what happens is, is people are drawn to that because they feel a resonance.

Um, they feel a resonance with that we’re going to what that organization stands for and what they individually stand for. So it’s, it’s a resonance thing, um, that happens. And that’s why companies with. That stand for something beyond just profits and really are making a positive contribution in the world have an edge on hiring top talent because of that resonance phenomenon and people want to work for a place that is allows them to align their personal sense of meaning and purpose with with something that’s bigger than themselves.

Naji Gehchan: I love this resonance. Phenomenon. I love it. Thanks for sharing this. I’m gonna now move into a section where I will give you a word and I would love your reaction to it. The first one is leadership.

Kate Isaacs: You want me to just react to the idea of leadership? Yep.

What I’m thinking about is an exercise I did with my students in a class I teach called discovering and developing your leadership signature. And I gave them a sheet of many, many different definitions of leadership. Some was about influencing people. Some was about developing people. Some was, some of the definitions were about producing outcomes.

I don’t think there’s any single definition of leadership that, I would say this is it. I think like many things we have to, I define what that is for ourselves. I, for myself, leadership is about inspiring and others. To live from their own purpose and values and, and doing something collectively to change the future in alignment with what we believe is possible.

That’s for me, what inspires me about leadership and it’s about change and it’s about other people and it’s about doing something bigger than myself for others and with others.

What about

Naji Gehchan: polarities?

Kate Isaacs: Oh, one of my favorite topics, uh, and I

Naji Gehchan: love the during class, the student of, uh, ,

Kate Isaacs: I’m a, a, a student of the DA Jing, which I think is the authoritative manual of polarities. It is a book of opposites, and I think if anyone who. Anyone who really wants to understand polarities could take a deep dive into the Dao De Jing, um, several thousand years old commentary on, on polarities.

They’re, uh, found everywhere in the world, in our bodies, in nature, in organizations. And they’re absolutely the, the creative tension of life and, and what makes life interesting. One of the most fundamental polarities is our breath. We breathe in and we breathe out many, many, many times a day. And we have to do both of those things in order to have a healthy functioning body and mind.

So. You need both of these ends of poles, um, and it helps to know that they exist and that you can get stuck in one side or the other and, and it helps to know some tricks to get unstuck. And, and start to see, uh, what my, uh, friend and mentor and colleague and Indigenous, um, elder in Canada, John Rice, calls two eyed seeing, so that you can begin to see the other side of the polarity and the validity of it, and, and get disembedded from an over identified With one side or the other, and then you’re in a real position to lead, um, because you can see, recognize and respect the truth of both ends of the pole and the people who represent the voices on either end of the pole.

If you’re talking about an organization, then you’re in a different position to help make, uh. the miracle happen in the middle, if you will.

Naji Gehchan: I love it. And I really enjoyed when you talk and thought that’s about polarities. Can I double click with maybe a tangent to this when you’re saying so the leader’s role or the power and the magic happens when you see those two polarities for you to be able to take a decision.

There is more and more ideas about should you take sides when it’s. Polarities really kind of splitting the word as we’re saying like there’s a lot of polarities today’s in the word that are social issues. How do you think about this for leaders is our role to see those polarities and ensure people can speak up.

They exist and we understand them. Are you one who would advocate we need to take a stand, take a side? How do you think about all this in our current world?

Kate Isaacs: Well, given what I just said, you probably could predict that I won’t say that you need to take a side. Because as soon as you quote, take a side, you’re missing all kinds of information and intelligence that the other side can provide. And So one of the things I have studied, I think I mentioned this in class, is the abortion debate, and I studied a dialogue where six women, um, spent five years in secret conversation because the, at the time, the um, Topic was so highly charged as it is again today that they couldn’t meet publicly.

So for five years they met And, and talked about this and I think it’s a, it’s a hopeful story because they didn’t ever see eye to eye on the issue itself. They still were very firm in their beliefs that their point of view was the correct one. But what they realized is that they could still have a respectful relationship and a civil dialogue, even though they had very different beliefs.

And they also realized that it was very interesting to talk with people on the other side, and to really understand where they were coming from, even if they didn’t agree with them. Because they it taught them so much as they said about their own beliefs and why they believed what they believed and, you know, fast, fast forward that was That was back in, uh, I have to recall the exact date, close to 20 years ago that that dialogue was happening.

But fast forward today, there’s an organization called Braver Angels, which is, um, hosting a lot of quote, red, blue dialogues so that they can create a space for people to just simply hear what the other I Folks on the other side of the political divide believe and why and they hosted some workshops around abortion in Kentucky, of all places very politically mixed environment.

I mean, of all places meaning it wasn’t like a. It was a very politically mixed environment is what I mean, and they were able to reframe the debate away from. having people argue about whether their point of view was right or wrong into what’s the problem that we’re trying to solve here. And what everybody could agree on was that no woman wants to have an abortion.

No woman willingly wants to have that happen in her life. And so what they could all agree on was that they all wanted to help prevent unwanted pregnancies. They wanted to help women prevent that. From happening. And so what could they do to help women prevent unwanted pregnancies? Well, they agreed on two moves.

One is around, um, sex education in Kentucky schools. And the other was around long lasting contraception. And this was a group of conservatives and liberals, reds and blues who came together and agreed on that. So it’s just an example of how the Reframing the problem that you’re trying to solve allows you to, you know, maybe not totally let go of your beliefs around a particular issue, but still lets you move forward in a productive way because you’ve identified something in the middle, that common ground that you can work on together.

Naji Gehchan: I love it, Kate, and I’m just such a big believer in this. We did actually end up doing healthy conversations and healthy debates with my classmates during MIT, during these tough moments. And this was the whole idea, where we can bring our differences and actually have healthy conversations for us to move forward as a society and as leaders.

I love your example. The third word is storytelling. Mmm.

Kate Isaacs: I come from a long line of Irish storytellers, so storytelling is, is in my blood and I, I love to tell stories and have, actually teach storytelling, as you know, um, and, and how can we tell great stories? I think that, uh, storytelling is Thanks. is a bit of a lost art, and it’s coming back because people are realizing how powerful it is to change minds, to change hearts, and to make connections with the people that we’re Our peers and folks we’re trying to lead or influence whether it’s up or down in an organization.

We are hardwired for stories and there’s some really interesting research about what happens to our brains when we hear stories and, um, there are different brain chemicals that get released, our mirror neurons turn on, um, we are along for the ride when we are listening to a story. We are Right there generating our own internal imagery of what’s happening and one of the great leadership skills is to be able to put pictures in people’s minds and bring people into your experience so that they can go on that ride with you and then come out the other side and, um, And, and, and be open to what you might suggest about what’s next.

So I have a great example. I don’t know if we have time, but, um, a great example of where I saw some executives doing this, if you want me to share, there’s, um, um, group of hospital executives in Chicago led, uh, Initially by Rush University Medical Center. So this will relate to, you know, the industry that you’re talking about.

Well, Rush University Medical Center, uh, led by a team that had done a lot of research on the, um, racial health gap. And, uh, the former chief medical officer, David Ansell, wrote a book, um, actually called The Death Gap in Chicago where he, he and others who were on the team at Rush University Medical Center told the following story to try to get other hospital executives in the region to work with them on closing the death gap.

You get on the Chicago subway in downtown Chicago, um, you can expect to live into your 80s. That’s the average life expectancy downtown. You get on the blue line in Chicago and you go down into the subway, you get on the subway and take it seven stops and get out on the West side of Chicago. And if you get out and you live there instead of downtown, you can immediately lose 16 years off your life expectancy.

just because of the environment, um, and all of the risks associated with, with living in that West side neighborhood where Rush University Medical Center is located. And there’s a whole lot of reasons for that, um, uh, historic racism and under invested in neighborhoods and, and things like that. And so Rush.

began to ask itself, well, this is the neighborhood that we’re in. What is our responsibility to help close the death gap here? And, uh, they, they began to tell this story and it’s a horrifying story. Um, 16 years of life expectancy just by living in this neighborhood instead of in downtown wealthier Chicago.

And that, that story, which put pictures in people’s minds, um, lit a fire under the other health system executives in the region. And so they, um, got together and decided to do something about it. And one thing that came out of that was to launch a new nonprofit called Westside United, which is committed to, um, systems change and, um, all sorts of systemic interventions into the community to deal with, to basically help people, people live.

With, um, greater health and, um, safety and a sense of well being. So, this is one of my favorite examples of where a really clear story, um, coalesced people around a collective agreement that this has to change. We’re going to put some money into it, and they’ve attracted many millions of dollars to do this work in the West Side neighborhood of Chicago.

It’s incredible.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you for sharing this, uh, this powerful story. The final word is spread love and organizations.

Kate Isaacs: Say it again. Spread love

Naji Gehchan: and organizations.

Kate Isaacs: Spread love and organizations. Spread love and organizations. Well, I am actually really happy that we can use the word, the L word in business now.

Um, because it, it used to be a no no. It was a four letter word that nobody was willing to say. But, you know, in the end. What’s the point if it’s not about love and loving what we do, loving each other, loving our customers or our patients? If you’re in health care, why do we do anything in the end? Why do we do anything in the end if not for love?

I wouldn’t say anything more than that. It’s all about love. It’s all

Naji Gehchan: about love. And I will say I love it. I don’t know if you can say it in corporate, the L word, but for sure I’m saying it. And I, I really love that you also push for it. So any final word of wisdom for leaders? around the world.

Kate Isaacs: Say it again.

The sound cut out for a sec.

Naji Gehchan: Sorry. Any final word of wisdom for leaders around the world?

Kate Isaacs: I think for me, the next decade is going to be going deeper into the territory of how do we use our, our intuition, our awareness of what our bodies are telling us, our emotional intelligence.

All of the kinds of things that aren’t about data and, um, but are intangible. And I would dare say, perhaps a more feminine way of leading. I. We’ll be going into that territory. And I, I would just invite people to start to pay attention to, you know, what is your gut telling you? Yes, we need data and we need to have good logic and reasoning.

I mean, I’m at MIT, I’m trained up in that. And, and you have to pair that with an intuitive gut sense, um, paying attention to where do I feel alive? Where’s the energy? In whatever I’m trying to do. What about passion? You know, those dimensions of human experience are so important. Where do I feel joy and pleasure?

It goes back to that thing we were talking about, about glimpses and glimmers. And, and I would like to really elevate that as part of what leadership is about. Go to where you feel most alive and do that and pay attention to where you and others are most alive and expand that space because that is where, that is where change will happen.

And that’s where the future lies.

Naji Gehchan: Where do I feel alive? Thank you so much, Kate, for being with me today and this incredible discussion. Thank you.

Kate Isaacs: Thanks, Naji. Thanks for having me. Such a pleasure.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host, for a special episode in partnership with Jill Donahue for her new book “A Dose of Inspiration: 100 purpose stories from Pharma Leaders”. I am joined today by Adam Castano, VP of Global Clinical Development at BridgeBio after having led Global Clinical Development teams Merck. Adam is a board-certified cardiologist and industry professional dedicated to the singular unifying purpose of bringing innovative therapies and breakthroughs that improve patients’ lives. Previously he led development programs in cardiac amyloidosis at BridgeBio and Pfizer Inc. He also served as Assistant Professor and Co-Director of the Center for Cardiac Amyloidosis at Columbia University College of Physicians & Surgeons.

Adam, it is such a pleasure to have you with me today!

Adam Castano: Thank you so much, Naji. Pleasure to be here with you.

Naji Gehchan: Can you first share with us your personal story from your passion to cardiology to now joining the biotech world. What is your purpose?

Adam Castano: I guess we can start, um, with my, my story starts with my parents. I would say, um, my, my mother, uh, is a, uh, Freudian psychoanalyst.

So as you can imagine, you know, Uh, someone who thinks very deeply about the mind. Uh, my father is a cardiologist. Um, so again, someone centered in the heart, uh, like myself. And, um, um, so growing up in that context. With two parents who sort of, you know, one talked a lot about, uh, thought and deliberate, um, process and, um, sort of, uh, intellectual topics, um, and the other, um, being more, uh, uh, heart driven, if you will, um, was someone centered in sort of the Uh, you know, uh, the, the, the marks of sort of, uh, I don’t want to say emotion, so to speak, but, um, more, more raw intuition.

Um, uh, and, uh, so I grew up with, with sort of that, um, overarching philosophy. Um, and this was all in an international setting. So I, I went to an American school, um, uh, the American school foundation in Mexico city, um, for early parts of childhood. Um, and also, um, spent, um, a majority of childhood here in New York City, where, um, my mother’s family is from.

And so in that context, um, had sort of an international influence on, um, you know, how I viewed the world, um, and that, you know, drove me, I think, uh, growing up, um. Uh, I had a early affinity for science. I remember my, uh, parents, uh, gifting me a microscope when I was young. Um, and, uh, spent a lot of time with that, perhaps too much time.

Um, but enjoyed it. And that flourished into a love of, uh, science, um, that continued on throughout, um, you know, my, um, high school and then eventually, uh, undergraduate training, um, at Princeton, um, where I studied molecular biology and Spanish literature, um, and, uh, again, one for the heart, one for the mind.

Um, And, uh, and then went on to study medicine, um, uh, and it wasn’t until sort of medical school that I. Discovered that cardiology, um, was, was, uh, you know, a field of internal medicine that was best suited for my particular, uh, background and interests and, and sort of future aspirations. And so that, that brought me to, um, you know, my clinical training.

Um, uh, I, I did that at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, go blue. Um, and then, uh, after that, um, had, uh, the opportunity to come back to New York where I essentially stayed and have, um, done, uh, the rest of my medical training. So, uh, residency, um, at Columbia University, uh, in internal medicine, and I stayed on for fellowship in cardiology, um, during that period of time, I, I.

Um, took some research years and also, um, got a master’s in patient oriented research and, um, clinical trial design at the Mailman School of Public Health. Um, and then stayed on as well for an extra advanced, uh, cardiac imaging, uh, fellowship. Um, so, um. You know, that’s why I have a lot of gray hair spent, um, perhaps too much time in training, but enjoyed every 2nd of it.

And, um, it was during that training that I came across my 1st academic mentor, uh, Matt Mauer, who. Really inspired me, um, um, from an intellectual and a clinical sense. Um, um, we encountered a patient with cardiac amyloidosis that really fascinated me. Um, this was at the time a rare. Um, um. Uh, disease that. Uh, was, uh, undiagnosed, uh, underdiagnosed, uh, not a lot of, uh, physicians, uh, knew about it or how to treat it.

There were no therapies, um, and I thought to myself, you know, I was a young intern at the time. Wow, this is really a fascinating, um, disease process with, you know, not a lot of therapy and it’s an awful disease. These, uh, these patients often, um, develop end stage heart failure and live, uh, quite a Um, poor quality of life, um, if untreated, um, especially if they’re under, you know, unrecognized as this disease often goes, um.

And so I decided to sort of buckle down and start studying that disease with my mentor at the time at Columbia and we, you know, we’re lucky to have come across some early findings and how to diagnose the disease early. We made some clinical observations of, um, potential populations at risk, uh, that were not thought to be at risk.

Um, uh, patients with aortic stenosis, for example. And even made some therapeutic advances, um, with, uh, the development of the 1st, uh, stabilizers, uh, to treat, uh, the, the disease, um, and that, um, eventually brought me to my faculty position, uh, at Columbia, so I co directed the cardiac amyloid center with him for a couple of years and enjoyed every second of it, really I think my favorite part was the patients and the day to day patient work, um, but sort of nagging at me in the background, um, and this is where the international context of sort of my childhood comes in, is that I felt that I, I wanted to have a more global impact, um, with the day to day work that I was doing.

Um, and, and that’s when an opportunity came, uh, about for me to join, um, a team at Pfizer that had just, um, come to the Uh, end of phase 3 for, um, uh, to famine is the 1st, um, TTR stabilizer for a TTR cardiac amyloidosis. Um, that, um, my mentor and I had helped actually work on on the, on the academic side and now there was this opportunity to come and.

Um, you know, bring bring this breakthrough therapy to patients across the world, um, on the biopharmaceutical side. And so I decided to make that important leap, um, uh, into the biopharmaceutical industry, um, that brought me to Pfizer. Um, I. Uh, really cherish that experience. I sat at the apex of sort of, you know, the intersection between, um, development and commercial interests and, uh, regulatory interests and, um, uh, business development and, um, legal, et cetera.

Um, really learned a ton, um, early on in that process, um, and had an opportunity to see what a, you know, a major global launch was all about. Um, and then, um, um, I had, uh, after that, a new opportunity to lead, uh, an important program, um. Uh, in prevention at, um, bridge bio, um. Which is, um, uh, biotech based, uh, in Silicon Valley, uh, that is developing, uh, a novel, um, second generation, or I should say next generation TTR stabilizer called Acarimidis.

Um, and the, um, work that I do there is focused on, um, supporting that, um, important, uh, potential therapy, uh, after the completion of its, uh, phase 3 clinical trial, um, just earlier this year, um, and, um, furthermore to advance the science of, in the field to help, uh, essentially understand the question of whether we can use these novel therapies Um, to prevent disease or at least slow the onset of disease.

Um, and that’s a hypothesis that’s not been tested clinically. Um, but certainly makes sense. Um, when you think about the mechanism of disease and, um, really could do a lot of good to, um, to patients who, um, who, uh, might otherwise not have been diagnosed or, or die, get diagnosed too late and then end up, um, you know, in this continuous sort of, uh, spiral of, Late diagnosis, um, and and, you know, unfortunate outcomes that that result from that.

So that’s that’s sort of in a nutshell. Um, I should say, I, I had a, a year as well before this current, um, last, um, process where I spent a year at Merck, uh, in clinical development. Uh, helping to bring a novel, um, oral PCSK9 therapy, um, to, uh, phase three. Um, and I helped design the clinical, uh, trial for that, uh, particular compound, which I, I hope will, will, um, you know, uh, ultimately I think has a lot of promise, but we’ll see how the, the clinical trial, uh, reads out in the next few years.

Um, and I also, um, learned a lot working on a phase two clinical trial, um, or a separate compound called, so tattercept, um, that is being studied for the treatment, um, of pulmonary hypertension. Um, so that, that in a nutshell brings me to, uh, present day. I hope that wasn’t too long winded. No, that’s

Naji Gehchan: great, Adam.

And I’ll obviously go into some of the pieces you already shared and I relate to several parts of what you do. Um, as you know, I’m also leading development in the breast cancer field. Um, so I’d love first, you said you took a big leap and moved to pharma and I, uh, I know like this is usually how physicians we would feel when we, uh, when we move from clinic being in front of patients to, uh, to the biotech.

Pharma industry word. First, the first question on this is really more personal from a leadership from a personal leadership standpoint.

Adam Castano: Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: What is your biggest learning? And is there a common thread you felt from moving from academics? you still rely on strongly or ones that you felt you need to let go?

I don’t know. Like it’s more, what is your biggest learning as

Adam Castano: a leader? Sure. Um, yeah, it’s a great question. Um, I, I would say the biggest learning I’ve had, and I can’t emphasize this enough. Is that, um, you know, leaders talk a lot about different skills to, you know, organize and, and, um, sort of motivate or galvanize, um, people around them and, you know, within their spheres of influence to accomplish a particular task.

Um, and that’s all really important, but I think 1, 1 thing I’ve learned in particular, um, and this started early on, I think. Probably in, in early medical training was the idea of humility, um, and, and it’s something that I think gets brushed over perhaps, um, too often. It’s something that I think should go into, um, much more formal, uh, types of leadership training, both in business and medicine, um, in law and other sort of, you know, across the board.

Um, this idea that, you know, humility. And what what we bring to the table is is important, but there is a whole world out there that that other people also bring to the table. Um, that we can learn from. Um, and it really is what what we do in in life is a team sport and and that. Is something perhaps that, um, you know, when you think of medical school and medical teams and, you know, sort of how health care tends to be structured, there’s sort of.

Um, you know, the, the doctor at the flagship, you know, who sort of commands, you know, the ship, um, and everyone around them sort of is in a supportive role, but, um, one thing I’ve really come to learn and appreciate, especially in the biopharmaceutical sphere is that, yeah, we need doctors to help develop, you know, important breakthroughs, um, but, uh, we’re just a Piece of the puzzle, right?

And we’re not any more or less important than, um, other members, uh, of, uh, large biopharmaceutical, you know, um, uh, structures, right? Uh, we need, um, the expertise of legal colleagues and regulatory experts and, um, you know, um, People who are more on the basic science side of things to help us understand whether molecules can even do what we expect them to do in a mechanistic sense, right?

Can they bind the target? Um, we need safety experts to help us prove that our therapies are actually safe to put into humans, right? We need. Um, globally, business leaders and commercial folks who, uh, can help us understand the landscape of how, um, a particular, uh, breakthrough can get translated, um, into a product that can help, um, you know, the most number of people, um, where it’s needed, um, you know, most so, so, um, I think, I think, I hope that answers the question, you know, so it’s a sense of humility within a team structure, and that’s, that’s something I’ve really come to appreciate, um, over the years.

Yeah, it certainly does, and

Naji Gehchan: that’s, that’s such a great, uh, learning, and you, you certainly appreciate, as you said, it takes a huge amount of people and expertise. To bring a drug from an idea to pre clin and through all our clinical stage and at the end really getting it in the pharmacy and for the patients, it’s you really beautifully expressed all the different functions and several others that will get together along the way to get it as a reality for patients.

So what would you say to physicians and I’m sure you do as I do talk to several physicians who are thinking about this who are usually. Kind of worried of losing this immediate impact on patients. And I was an ER doc, right? Like you, you, the impact you see it, you, you have, you have, yeah. So what do you, how do you talk with, uh, with physicians who are thinking about this and thinking of broadening their impact, but differently?

Adam Castano: Yeah, it’s a, it’s, it’s, um, a very natural question that I think a lot of folks ask when they’re sort of at the crux of uh, an important decision and it is an important, you know, this is perhaps one of the most important decisions, uh, physicians ultimately, um, make if they decide to transition, um, into a biopharmaceutical role.

So, um, I would say You know, when I, when I, I’ll share a bit of my personal sort of journey and then, you know, perhaps that can help help us sort of glean some, some understanding. Um, but, um. I didn’t want to lose the, uh, day to day patient care aspect of it at 1st and I had something I wasn’t ready to give up.

Um, and I was fortunate when I 1st joined. Uh, Pfizer and, uh, Bridge Bio and even at Merck that there was flexibility built in for me to be able to continue to see, uh, patients in a clinical setting, um, as long as, you know, the, there were parameters put around that in terms of sort of, um, you know, time spent and, um.

You know, allocations of, uh, windows of time within my sort of global work schedule. Um, and, uh, um, in addition, and this is an important piece to ensure that there’s no sort of overlying conflicts of interest between the clinical work and the biopharmaceutical work. And as long as those boxes are checked, um, I think it’s something that, um, I think most pharmaceutical companies would actually encourage.

And that’s been my. My, um, my experience is that I was encouraged to say, Hey, if this is part of your journey, and you feel that this is important to you, um, uh, you should, you should definitely pursue this. And, um, and so I appreciated that flexibility. And so I continue to see patients from a broad preventative cardiology standpoint.

Um, um, for a few years into, um, my biopharmaceutical, um. Work and, um, and really enjoyed it. Uh, eventually I found that, um, my, um, my biopharma development work, um, was essentially satisfying, um, a very important piece of what I needed to feel like I was making, uh, a difference and bringing again, the ultimate sort of lighthouse at the end of, you know, a dark tunnel, um, for me is, you know, am I, am I, Achieving my purpose, am I having impact on improving the lives of people around me?

And the work that I did in bio pharma, I eventually came to, uh, realize and be quite satisfied with achieve that purpose. So I found the need to do clinical day to day work less and less. And so I’ve gradually, you know, sort of wound that down. Um, and that’s, you know, that’s probably common for many physicians, I think, who enter the pharma space.

Some actually give it up entirely. Um, right off the bat. And that’s part of, um, another part of the journey. Um, I think it’s different for each individual. Um, and there are some who continue it all throughout their, their pharma, uh, careers where, you know, they still see, uh, or teach, uh, in medical schools or have important roles, um, uh, in, uh, an academic setting.

Um, so I, I think, you know, we frequently think about these as a dichotomy, but I, I actually think it’s a false dichotomy. It’s something that can, can coexist. Um, there, there, uh, is crosstalk between academia, clinical and biopharma industry work. It’s necessary for effective drug development. Um, and, um, I would hope that it continues to be fluid and that those walls, you know, do not get thicker or taller.

If

Naji Gehchan: you will, I said, I certainly agree with you, um, Adam on this and, um, it’s, it’s important to keep those instructions. And as you said, the impact is just different, right? And what you will be able to do it instead of being. On the frontline, it’s obviously helping more patients by, you know, two steps, maybe further away, but you’re still helping and bringing impact, uh, on, on people.

Uh, so how are you ensuring, because we talked a lot and we’re obviously always passionate about the impacts you have on patients at the end of the day. That’s why we do what we do. How do we bring this to life? With your teams on a daily basis, constantly having to juggle the operational things like a lot of, uh, really tactical pieces.

And how do you make sure that your team is always centered around the patient at the end of

Adam Castano: the day? Yeah. Yeah. So I love that question. And this is something I actually share often with my teams. Um, first I, I tell everyone that I work with, if you’re in the meeting and you’re. You find yourself discussing something or being asked to do something or, um, you know, uh, you’re, you’re, you become pulled into something that doesn’t quite jive with, you know, your personal mantra of, hey, uh, am I achieving my purpose?

Am I, um, is this ultimately going to, uh, create. You know, a meaningful advancement for the grander purpose of bringing breakthroughs, um, forward to patients, then don’t don’t do it and tell everyone that Adam said, it’s okay not to do it. Um, and and and so. You know, again, it means, you know, hey, maybe this meeting got off track.

Let’s refocus on sort of what what is the most meaningful thing we can accomplish here. Right? And so that’s sort of the North star. I think that should guide. Uh, I hope guides all of, um, the folks I work with and. And it certainly does, um, the, the 2nd piece, I would say is, um, this is something I share a lot and comes back to sort of the earlier childhood sort of heart brain connection that when we do something, I think there’s an important.

Um, uh, interactivity there where it has to make intellectual sense, it has to be logical and, but it also has to be driven from a place of heart, a place of passion. If it’s missing any of those elements, then it’s, it’s going to fall flat. And so any initiative that we embark upon any project, any work, any PowerPoint presentation, um, you know, memo meeting, whatever it is that you might have it, um, it has to accomplish those 3 core things.

Does it help patients at the end of the day? Does it meet intellectual rigor and is there heart and passion behind it? So those, those are sort of my 3. Big things that I try to impart. Um, they’re, they’re. You know, overarching big concepts, I think, uh, maybe get talked about, um, in different ways. Um, but for me, I’ve found that they, they seem to resonate and, um, and bring about, um, productivity.

I love

Naji Gehchan: that, uh, help patient. It doesn’t make sense scientifically, intellectually and heart, and it goes back to your very first story with your parents, right? You said heart and mind, and you’re taking this and putting it through your career and life. That’s great. I’m going to give you now a word, and I would love your reaction to it.

And the first one

Adam Castano: is leadership.

It’s a big word. It’s loaded in many ways, but, um, I think the 1st subset of words that come to mind are those that center or cluster, if you will, around the concept of, um, character. Um, and that’s also a loaded word, but, um. You know, I think all of us seek to, um, lead meaningful lives that are centered in, um, you know, doing the right thing, um, some moral center, right?

Uh, or, um, a compass, if you will. And that can mean different things for different people. Um. But leadership, I think, is not any different from that. I think character is, is inherently a very important piece of leadership. Um, people tend to want to follow leaders who they feel display, you know, ethical and moral character.

Um, people who are driven by, you know, values that are, um, clearly communicated and I think resonate with with others. Um, and so that’s, that’s, uh, I think probably the 1st piece of this that that comes to mind. The 2nd, 1 is

Naji Gehchan: health

Adam Castano: equity, health equity. Um, that is, um, again, another, you know, commonly discussed concept.

Um, but is increasingly more and more important now, perhaps now, you know, more now than ever before. Um, it. It means not just, you know, um, getting people, um, equitable care, but also, um, in clinical trials, you know, from where I sit, um, ensuring that the drugs we test. Are tested in as broad a population as possible in order to answer the scientific question at hand and to be able to say broadly this drug was shown to work in X, Y, or Z population.

So, therefore, based on again, go back to the scientific method and here, you know, it makes logical sense to do this. And also there’s part and passion behind it. Um, we can tell you it works in, you know, this subgroup of the population, this set of ethnicities, this, uh, country, this geography, et cetera. And so, um.

Talked about a lot needs to be talked about even more. Uh, and more more than talk action upon an actual, um, you know, um, workflows and clinical trial goals, um, that we set forth for ourselves. Um,

Naji Gehchan: I love that. You’re bringing that. I don’t have, um, obviously I, you know, we spontaneously think about access.

and equity in access and also equitable health care. And I’ve been working a lot, uh, on, uh, equity in clinical trials. It’s such an important, uh, it’s such an important topic. And We will never do enough, but making sure that we have a diverse population within our clinical trials, both to bring access.

Sometimes clinical trials are the best option patients would have in the current schema of treatment. And exactly, as you said, also to make sure that whatever we’re developing has its effect as we are envisioning, not only at a broader population, but really at the different, for different. People, right?

And, uh, ethical, uh, art is super important. So thanks for sharing that.

Adam Castano: Yeah. Yeah. And thanks for bringing the access piece up to that’s that’s obviously a critical piece of the equation as well. The 3rd word is Lego Lego. Um, my 5 year old loves Legos. Um, that’s the 1st idea comes to mind, but I will say. Um, I love Legos too, actually.

Um, I know

Naji Gehchan: we both share this passion of Lego. This is why I saw this.

Adam Castano: So Lego, I find Lego actually to be a little bit like yoga. There’s a Zen to it. Um, you know, there’s a process. Um, and in order to achieve this higher state of sort of Lego mastery, if you will, you know, become a Lego Yoda master, you have to buy into the philosophy of There’s, there’s an order and a process, right?

And so you can’t just build the unstructure by throwing all the pieces, you know, into a bowl and, you know, trying to replicate the picture that you see on the box. You have to open the manual. You have to understand the steps. You have to sort the pieces. You have to put them, you know, in different categories before you even begin.

And then once you start, it makes the process a lot easier. You take things in little pieces, and that’s kind of what we do in biopharma. Um, right. You, you don’t just magically think of a molecule and, you know, go to the pharmacy and say, Hey, let’s, let’s make this pill. Um, there is. A intricate, an intricate process, um, that is much akin to Lego building, I would say.

So I actually love that, that, um, that, that concept.

Naji Gehchan: That’s, that’s a great analogy. And yeah, I never thought of it purely from a process. And it certainly is, right? Like there is this creativity, the process, the creation that you do. So I, I love what you’re sharing. The last one is spread love in organizations.

Adam Castano: Yeah, yeah, I think that speaks to, um, you know, we hear this concept, a lot of authenticity, um, um, being, you know, again, and this gets back to the sort of moral centeredness of things and character. And if, if we share bits and pieces of our personal stories, um, our authentic selves with those who we interact and work with on a daily level.

Uh, I think others will feel that sense of community, um, and, um, it helps build ties, right? Important ties that are necessary, um, to make teams effective and functional. Um, and, uh. And ultimately, I would venture to say, perhaps loving, um, you know, that’s a, it’s a, it’s a big leap there, but those are the most effective teams, I think, where you kind of feel the love, uh, everywhere, um, there’s joy and camaraderie, um, and, uh, a true, um, sort of looking forwardness, if you will, positivity to doing the day to day work is needed.

Any final word of

Naji Gehchan: wisdom for healthcare

Adam Castano: leaders around the world? I’m sorry. What was this? Do

Naji Gehchan: you have any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders

Adam Castano: around the world? Yeah. I don’t know if they’re words of wisdom. They may just be words, but, um, one thing I think, I hope, um, we see a lot more of, uh, in healthcare leaders and this spans the gamut, not just in biopharma, I would say all healthcare leaders within all healthcare industries is, again, purpose, keep the patients first.

It is, does this. New initiative patients and how will it do that? And how will it make lives better? Is this is there an intellectual thorough rigorous process that has been put behind? This new initiative that we’ve done our homework, you know, so to speak, um, and 3rd, um, love and passion, right? Again, it’s it’s tying the 3.

It’s a marriage. I think I’m happy triumvirate of 3 things that, um. That I hope if, if are at the forefront of everyone’s, uh, mind and their day to day work, I think can ultimately help, help us get to a better state, um, uh, for everyone.

Naji Gehchan: What a great summary, Adam. I’m really thankful to you for being with me today and it was great to connect again.Adam Castano: Thank you. Thank you, Naji. Really, really enjoyed it!

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this episode joined today by Vinit Nijhawan a strategic visionary who has conceived and built several technology organizations that have been acquired by companies such as Boeing, Motorola and Qualcomm. Vinit is an admired leader and mentor who has built or inherited and then effectively managed several high-performance teams. He has worked in many industries: computing, aerospace, logistics, medical devices, biopharma, synthetic biology, and others. In 2008, Vinit intentionally pivoted his career from technology entrepreneur and CEO, to helping other entrepreneurs with a special focus on academia. He began teaching Entrepreneurship at Boston University and subsequently led the Office of Technology Development from 2010-2016. In this role, Vinit participated in several BU committees and organizations and has represented BU on several boards and business plan/grant review panels. Subsequently, Vinit took the OTD experience and launched a national academic IP monetization program with 40 institutions engaged, including UC Berkeley and UCLA. He launched Waterloo Alumni Angels at his alma mater. Most recently, Vinit is the Managing Director of MassVentures.

Vinit, It is such an honor to have you with me today!

Vinit Nijhawan: It’s my pleasure.

Naji Gehchan: First, can you please share with us your personal story, and what’s in between the lines of your inspiring journey?

Vinit Nijhawan: Well, you know, truthfully, uh, when people look at my LinkedIn, it, it looks very confusing because there’s a lot of stuff there, but really my story has been a very simple one.

So, um, I started my first company as an engineering student at the University of Waterloo in Canada. And, uh, Subsequently, uh, was part of five startups. Um, three years CEO and they were all in, um, obviously tech startups, but specifically in aerospace and telecom. That’s what I did for 25 years. And then 15 years ago, I decided to move from being a parent, as I call it, you know, running companies to becoming a grandparent, helping other entrepreneurs run their companies, you know, with successfully.

And that really took two directions. Um, one was teaching at Boston university. And the other was investing and the teaching kind of led to running the tech transfer office at Boston University for five years, where we launched eight venture backed companies, primarily in life sciences and healthcare.

So as you

Naji Gehchan: founded several startups, you scaled them, exited them. And I love now how you talk about being a parent and a grandparent, helping other launch their companies. Uh, what is for you, or is there even a magic formula that you think makes startups a successful venture?

Vinit Nijhawan: Man, that, if I had the answer to that question, I’d be a billionaire right now.

You know, that magic formula. But look, ultimately, there are three things that conspire, right? It’s a good team, a good technology, and the right timing for a market. right timings for markets is very, very hard to figure out. Uh, good technology is important, but you know, there’s so much good technology in the world.

So it really comes down to the team, in my opinion. So, uh, I put a lot of emphasis on the team, even when I make investment decisions. And so can you,

Naji Gehchan: yeah, sorry, I was going to ask you, can you tell us a little bit more about, uh, about what you look at? For a team, a founding team, what are the capabilities you look at?

What are the specificities beyond capabilities?

Vinit Nijhawan: Maybe. Yeah, so, uh, you know, number one, um, it’s helpful if it’s more than one person, right? So I don’t know what the ideal size of a startup team is, but I, I think a team of three I find to be, you know, quite an effective, you know, startup team size. The other thing, you know, you’re looking for are the right kind of qualities and.

Um, in particular, the one thing that I look for are, um, people that are coachable, because, you know, there’s always a lot to learn, you know, when, when, when you’re a startup, and especially if you’re a first time entrepreneur. The second is, um, the best entrepreneurs in, in my mind, um, are those ones who are like this perfect combination of determ Determined, yet flexible.

So what does that mean? You know, I think the way, I’ll use an analogy which might sound funny. But, uh, excuse me one second. But it’s, you know, it’s what the Buddha taught us, right? What the Buddha taught us is that there are many paths to the truth, but there’s only one truth. It’s the same in startups.

Right? There are many paths to a startup. Any startup, you will find you need to be determined about the end result. So you’ve decided what your vision is or what you’re trying, what pain your point you’re trying to solve. That’s your fixed point. That’s your truth, but there’ll be lots of little pivots.

You know, in different paths, you have to take to get to it. So that’s the flexibility. So you have to be sort of completely focused on that end point, but you want to be flexible enough because you’re listening to the market all the time and trying to do those little pivots, right? And if you’re smart, you do a lot of small pivots.

If you haven’t done it well, you have to do some big pivots, and that really kills companies.

Naji Gehchan: So, talking about companies, you shared that you also look into, um, into healthcare now, companies. Can, is it, is there anything different in those that you look for, or do you think what you shared, and I love this mix of determined, flexible, team of three, coachable, is it kind of like the same makeup regardless of the industry you’re in, in other words?

Vinit Nijhawan: I think it’s the same makeup. Um, you know, I think what’s different about healthcare is unlike other big markets, you know, like pick anything, you know, consumer goods or, you know, cars or, uh, you know, real estate. Those markets by and large function the same way all over the world. Healthcare, however, doesn’t.

Healthcare functions very differently, you know, in different countries. And so, you know, you have to be very knowledgeable and cognizant of the fact that it operates very differently in different countries. Um, so you need a team, I think, that has some knowledge of the country they’re in and how, how it functions.

And, and, of course, that, that leads to the fact that, you know, if you can’t be a global player, because each Nation has its own health care system, and you’ve got to be in a big enough market opportunity, right? So the U. S. Is about half the market for pretty much anything in healthcare, whether it’s new drugs or new medical devices.

Um, so the US market is a very important one, but it functions very differently than, you know, say the Canadian market or, or you know, parts of the European market. Sure.

Naji Gehchan: I, I, I totally agree that differences in. Healthcare, uh, in each one of the countries is, is always an interesting challenge when you’re looking at global companies.

I’ve been into different markets, different geographies. It’s, it’s different, even though at the end, the purpose is the same, right? We’re trying to make life better for patients, but I agree how you get there and the regulations are always very different.

Vinit Nijhawan: Not just the regulations, but how you get paid.

Yeah, that is like a big piece of it.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. So you also, as you shared, uh, you also that team successfully and had very high performing team and, um, in tech and telecom, uh, before moving into, uh, investing and, and being, uh, being a professor, uh, at BU, uh, how did you personally. Let teams and how did you define high performing team and how did you let those what is your biggest learning?

Um, I’d love to hear more about that.

Vinit Nijhawan: Yeah, and and look let’s be clear. It was an evolution, right? It wasn’t like I woke up one day and became a great leader It took a lot of You know, learning and coaching along the way, I just started early. And, um, look, I mean, first and foremost, you know, a leader has to be very clear about that vision, about that truth that I talked about earlier, right?

So be very clear in your mind of what that is, because now you’ve got to articulate it to not just the people you’re trying to hire, but also your customers and, you know, investors and others. So if you’re very clear about what that endpoint is now, you can sort of work backwards and say, okay, what does my team have to, you know, look like, what are my investors have to look like, right?

Who are my early adopter customers? So you, you want to figure all that out before you start hiring people for your team, because, you know, you want to have a, a really good picture and some people call it a business plan of where you’re trying to get to. And, um, and, you know, once you have sort of a clear business plan, now you can think about what kind of people you want around you to help you.

So,

Naji Gehchan: so talking about people, if I want to be more specific, there is, you know, through the 80 plus interviews I already had in this, uh, in this podcast, uh, there is different views about complementarity of a team. Uh, some ideas about you need a team that build obviously trust, but how you can build also conflict sometimes that are positive and ends up with innovation.

I’d love to hear like, as you’re building team, what is the construct you usually look for?

Vinit Nijhawan: Yeah. You know, so the one thing I’ve also learned is that, um, different cultures Bring, you know, sort of different views of how you construct your team. So, you know, the U. S. is a very professional culture, right?

Which means, if I hire a VP of sales, or I hire a CFO, or I hire a VP of engineering, I can almost certainly find somebody who’s done that role before. And I don’t, I don’t have to hire somebody that I know personally, or I’ve worked with before. It can be somebody completely out of the blue that I’ve hired.

And immediately once I hire them, they’re inside the trust envelope, right? Because it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of a very professional market. That’s not always the case everywhere, right? And, um, so, you know, I’ll give an example. I find a lot of European companies, French companies particularly, when they’re expanding to the U.

S. They will send one of their trusted people from Europe to come and establish themselves here, right? But do not know the market here at all and I try to explain to them that listen if you hire somebody here a business development person or vice president of sales Once you’ve hired them, they’re, they’re, there’s no conflict, they’re not going to go anywhere else.

They’re only going to be dedicated to you because that’s the kind of professional, you know, workforce there is here. And people find that hard to understand because I think in many other cultures, you know, you, you want, you first have trust and then you think about, you know, the roles. Um, I, I, I think it should be the other way around.

I think the trust, trust develops. First you think about the absolute right people for each role that you’re hiring for. The best. And then, then a good leader builds the trust, you know.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah, yeah, I love those. You’re touching several points on cultural differences, leadership within cultural differences, and then how you build trust, obviously, which is, you know, do you start with trust?

How do you deal with trust is trust something that you just say, okay, we trust one another and it works or not. So it’s, it’s really a powerful

Vinit Nijhawan: voice you’re bringing. Yeah. And look, I mean, the reality is for any leader, trust is constantly earned. So it’s not static. I mean, you’re, you know, you’re constantly, people are always looking at you to see, okay, you’ve defined this truth.

Is it really, or are you like shifting, you know, so there’s, there are a lot, you’d be surprised. I mean, people are very astute. Yeah. They can figure out whether a leader really believes in the direction or doesn’t. Oh, for sure.

Naji Gehchan: For sure. And as you said, it’s, you know, it’s always so hard to get to this trust, but it’s, it, you can’t destroy it in fractions of seconds.

So there’s always this. Yeah. As a leader, do you really stand for what you’re saying and do you really believe in what you’re saying? I love this framing. What I’ll go to now, Vinit, I want to give you a word and I’d love a reaction to it. And so the first word is leadership.

Vinit Nijhawan: Uh, well, you know, I think it’s, it’s, it’s an overused word. Um, but you know, the, so let me use a little example. So when I first kind of moved into a big office, space, I, I wanted to be, have my office be in the same place as everybody else. And all the employees basically pushed back on that and wanted to put me into a corner office.

And, you know, what you realize is that, that hierarchy is something that, you know, I just fundamentally exists in, in, in human nature. Um, so, you know, so that’s why the word leadership, I think, has become important because Ultimately, you know, people are looking for a person, both people below that person, by below I mean kind of the ones who are executing, as well as the people above, you know, who are investing.

So, That’s what leadership means to me as an individual. So did you, did you

Naji Gehchan: end up accepting it? Uh, I’d love to double click on this, you know, with the example you gave of

Vinit Nijhawan: being in the Yeah, I ended up accepting the corner office, yeah. Okay, so you

Naji Gehchan: don’t, you just, so how, how is your view now on hierarchy?

Did it change? Do you think it’s something that is here? You’re saying it’s fundamental for human

Vinit Nijhawan: nature. Yeah, I don’t think it’s changed. You know, people, people talk about kind of Millennials and Gen Z and you know, how They want to have a lot more say which Look at what’s happened Twitter, right or some of these tech companies.

Of course people want to have a say and they might be More willing to be verbal, but I don’t think that’s changed, you know Look, I’ve always find that there’s three types of people in organization, right? There’s Um, you know, they’re the type who understand the direction of the company and are bought into it, right, vocally.

Then there are the people who vocally dissent, right, for very legitimate reasons. They don’t buy into it, but are very vocal about it. Those are really good people to know because you want, you want to be open minded and listen to them. You don’t want to fire them like Muff does, right? Every time somebody says something bad about Twitter, he fires them.

From his team. The third type, which I think is the most dangerous, is the silent opposition. And that exists in every organization. So there are people who don’t believe in the vision or the direction of the company, but aren’t vocal about it. But, but they, they aren’t vocal about it to the leadership or broadly, but they’re the ones who are gossiping and, you know, saying things.

Next to the water cooler. Those are the people you have to find and root out.

So the

Naji Gehchan: second word I’d love a reaction to is entrepreneurship.

Vinit Nijhawan: So another overused word, um, it’s, it’s, it’s interesting if you, if you look at what the, all the universities are doing is, um, they don’t use entrepreneurship as much anymore. Now what they use is a term called the entrepreneurial mindset.

Because most of the people, you know, doing MBAs, for example, aren’t going to go to startups. They’re going to go to bigger companies, but these bigger companies want that entrepreneurial mindset as well. And so, so what is an entrepreneurial mindset? I mean, basically, it’s someone who is always questioning the status quo, right?

That, that is what a good entrepreneur is. You’re always questioning the status quo. In other words, You’re constantly thinking about better ways to do things, right? And that’s what an entrepreneurial mindset is, that even within a company, you’re always thinking, well, how can this be improved? I mean, if you’re a surgeon, you know, you’re all the good, the really good entrepreneurial mindset surgeons are always thinking, okay, What if I had this instrument instead of this instrument?

I could do my job faster and better. Right? Now, the hard part becomes going from an N of 1, where, you know, you, you know that your life would be better if you had this change or this product or whatever. Now you’ve got to find out whether there’s a hundred other people like you that feel the same. And that’s what a lot of entrepreneurs have a hard time with, especially the technical entrepreneurs.

I, I used to be like that too. You know, you just said, Hey, this is a better technology. I know it’s a better technology, so everybody else must know it’s a better technology, but that’s not how it works, right? You have to go out there and, and do your customer discovery. So, um, I don’t know. I may have used too many words for my response to entrepreneurship, but no,

Naji Gehchan: it’s great.

It’s great. Uh, the third one is Ana Preta. Sorry, am am I pronouncing it correctly? Ana Preta, you broke up again. I saw you pr Vanna Preta. I saw you practice. This on LinkedIn, but I might be mispronouncing

Vinit Nijhawan: it. Okay. Hold on. Now. I’m let me just is it on my LinkedIn? Yeah, let me just take a quick look.

I think I don’t know what you’re talking about. Make sure I get that, right?

Maybe if a vein

Naji Gehchan: of Presto

Vinit Nijhawan: Or is it?

Let me tell you wait a second wise. Yeah, just put in the chat. So Yeah. Oh, here it is.

Oh, Vana Presta. Yes, I’ve put it. Um, I mean, I, I think it’s a Sanskrit word if I remember correctly. Uh, that’s, uh, a lot like, um, um, well, you, you talk about servant leader, right? So, uh, so Vana Presta is, is, So in Hinduism, there are four stages in your life, right? And, um, so, uh, vanaprastha is the third stage.

So your first stage, brahmacharya, is as a student. Your second stage, grihastha, is as a family person, right? Where you’re like, like you’re, you know, like you’re creating a family with children. And I have. Vanaprastha is when you’re giving back. It’s your giving back stage of your life. And then you’re the last stage, which is very controversial, is your sannyasa stage where you give it all up and become an ascetic, right?

To get nirvana, you put on a, you know, you put on the saffron robe and you beg for your food and you, you own nothing. Okay, that’s the

Naji Gehchan: hardest. That’s the controversial piece. Yeah, so, so, and I saw on LinkedIn, you talk about empathy and practicing panaprastha. Hey, I’d love to hear more about how you think of this.

Vinit Nijhawan: Yeah. So, I mean, so fundamentally in the first two stages, you know, you’ve built up a lot of knowledge, maybe some wealth. And, and your third stage of on a process stage is when you take that knowledge and wealth and you spread it to other people. Right. And, um, and there’s, of course, many ways to do that.

Um, the way I’ve practice it is teaching and investing because I think they’re both. Very relevant, because in both, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re passing your knowledge on, but you’re also passing wealth on, right? And, uh, you know, because, frankly, I want my students to become wealthy, right? I mean, that’s Um, you know, part of the goal of passing them knowledge.

Um, so empathy, uh, let me back up. So, so I, I’ve created this top 10 qualities of a successful entrepreneur, you know, Letterman style. Um, and, uh, my number one quality is generosity. Right. Empathy is in there too, but I think generosity in some ways is the ultimate empathy and what I mean by generosity is like all the best entrepreneurs are very generous, they’re generous with their time, they’re generous to their family, they’re generous with their stock options.

They’re generous to their customers. They’ll never let their customers down. Um, and so I think generosity is, is a very critical quality of, you know, of a good leader. Yeah, I love how

Naji Gehchan: you said it. Generosity is the ultimate empathy. I’ll take this one.

Vinit Nijhawan: Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: The last word is spread love and

Vinit Nijhawan: organizations. Uh, you know, so I, you know, it’s interesting.

I, I’m, I’m a very sort of, um, physical person, right? So, um, you know, I’m always hogging my employees and, you know, just having that sense of, of connectivity. And, you know, the world has changed a lot and people, you know, even my wife says, you know, you really shouldn’t be doing so much of that because, you know, you’re going to get yourself into trouble, you know, um, with the Me Too movement and all that.

And I said, look, people always know when it’s genuine. Do you know what I’m saying? Yeah. So, there is a sense of genuineness that people are very attuned to. And, uh, so first and foremost, I think, you know, love comes from being genuine where you’re genuinely interested in these other people in their success.

You’re generally interested in, uh, their career growth. Like, I literally sit down with all my people and the first question I always ask is, okay, where do you see yourself five years from now? Where do you see yourself 10 years from now? And you know, and then look, how can we work together to, to get you on that path, right?

Five years from now, you may not be working in this company. You could be somewhere else. So let’s figure out what the best way is of getting you there. Right. So, so I think that kind of genuineness. In helping people with their careers. That’s the ultimate love in organizations.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. Thanks for that. And yeah, many times we, we refer to it genuine care on this podcast.

Many talked about this and I still believe in it. So thanks for, for your words about it. Any final word of wisdom for leaders around the world.

Vinit Nijhawan: Yeah, I think that, um, especially in healthcare, there is a huge opportunity for change. And, um, you know, healthcare has been around for centuries, right? If not millennia.

If you look at the old texts Uh, Chinese texts or Indian texts. People were practicing fairly advanced healthcare 5, 000 years ago.

We’ve lost a lot of that knowledge, right? And you know, like for example, a simple thing like diagnosis. That, that family doctor, you know, who had the pattern recognition, who could diagnose just by looking at you, looking inside your throat, feeling your pulse, feeling your temperature or whatever, that’s gone now, and now we’re, we’re dependent on instruments and blood draws and, you know, all those things.

And in some ways, you know, diagnosis is so poor in today’s healthcare system all over the world, and that Creates an enormous amount of cost the healthcare system because if you start with misdiagnosis, then you’re just going to spend money on the wrong things. And so, um, so I think there’s a huge opportunity for new leaders in healthcare to evolve our healthcare system to truly being one, you know, that’s not fixing problems, but, uh, you know, but being ahead, you know, it’s really it is.

Yeah. sort of wellness, right? Not surgery. So, I mean, we need surgery too, but, you know, there’s enormous lack of wellness in human society that needs to be rectified. And we need the leaders, you know, who recognize that. And we’re starting to see that in the younger generation. Yeah. Yeah.

Naji Gehchan: And it touches all preventive medicine, well being. general health. And, uh, I totally convey with you on this. Thank you so much again for being with me today. It’s been such a pleasure.

Vinit Nijhawan: Of course, Naji.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host, honored to be joined today by Richard Dale a seasoned, values-driven executive known for his strategic acumen and operational excellence. He has consistently delivered proven results by translating vision into market realities in startup, large company, and non-profit contexts. Richard currently specializes in Executive and Leadership Coaching, Health Sector Advisory, Impact Consulting, and Team/Culture Facilitation. Until recently, Richard held executive roles within Optum (part of UnitedHealth Group) for over ten years, where he played a pivotal leadership role in founding and operating OptumLabs, and subsequently as a Senior Vice President for Health System Alliances in Optum, leading efforts for multi-billion-dollar cross-enterprise partnerships and innovation collaborations. Beyond his professional work, Richard serves as on different non-profit boards touching healthcare, environment, and global peace initiatives.

Richard, It is so great to see you again and have you with me today!

Richard Dale: Thank you very much, Naji. It’s great to be here.

Naji Gehchan: I remember our first chat where we were passionately debating AI in healthcare and what this next decade will bring us when we combine computational science to lifescience! Let’s take though some steps back, how did you get into healthcare and leading teams transforming its ecosystem?

Richard Dale: Well, I realized recently that I am on career number five. So, uh, I’m originally from the UK, but my wife and I moved to the States many years ago. Now, um, my first career, I was, uh, a techie. I was a software engineer and a database engineer.

Uh, and number two, I was an entrepreneur. Um, number three, I worked in venture capital for over a dozen years. And then I joined optimum United Health Group, and I was a health care executive there for over 10 years. And now I’m an executive coach and strategic advisor. So

I think looking back, you can always draw a line. Maybe it wasn’t so clear looking forward. But, um, a good friend, Paul Bleicher, um, invited me to co found PhaseForward, um, back in the mid nineties, and that was the, um, the startup that he and I co founded, and that was, um, that developed internet based, uh, electronic data capture for clinical trials.

Uh, and we sold mostly to the pharmaceutical industry and the CROs. Um, and really, that was the first time I was involved in something related to healthcare. Uh, and I was working with Paul, who’s an MD PhD, um, who taught me a lot about healthcare broadly and the pharmaceutical industry and clinical trials in particular.

And from that, when I moved into venture capital, um, I was, you know, seen as the healthcare expert, even though I had a pretty narrow view of what that was back then. But because of that, I got to see more healthcare tech, um, as that came through our pipeline. And the firm I was at invested horizontally across all industries in, in, um, technology, but we had a few.

Health tech investments. And I was involved in many of those in certain ways. Um, and we were very involved back in those venture capital days looking at big data. And so I was interested in the intersection of big data and health care. Um, and my good friend, Paul, who I had co founded face forward with, um, and I was very interested in the intersection of big data and health care.

Um, he had gone on to, uh, to Humedica as Chief Medical Officer and that company was acquired by Optum and then he was tapped to lead Optum Labs and he brought me in, um, to be Chief Operating Officer at Optum Labs. And I did that for a few years. And after Paul retired, I then took over running Optum Labs.

And Optum Labs was an innovation collaboration. Research and innovation collaboration with 30 or more leading healthcare institutions around the country, starting with Mayo Clinic. Interestingly, AARP was one of our core partners, and then academic medical centers, disease foundations, government agencies, uh, and other players in the health ecosystem working together to generate new insights from healthcare data to improve the system.

And so that’s kind of the path that I took over the years.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks for sharing this. And it’s, it’s fascinating. You’ve built team, uh, in a startup. You obviously led in a big corporate groups. You partnered with external groups and now you’re coaching execs on how to lead better and build team. And I know it’s one of your passions, building high performing teams to deliver for patients.

Can you share with us? How you personally did that and what are the key advices or key learnings that you take with you from

Richard Dale: a leadership standpoint? I think, um, you know, I describe myself as, uh, coming to really understand leadership, um, late in my career, really only 10 years. Before that, I would say I was an unconscious leader.

I think I was, I was an okay leader. Some people would say good things about my leadership, um, stretching back over the years, but I really got to grips with it, um, actually during my time at United, um, and through the opportunities they provided me, um, to really see leadership from multiple perspectives.

Um, and I’m going to tell a very short story, and this is, um, many of your, uh, subscribers and listeners may, uh, be familiar with this. David Foster Wallace told a story at the beginning of a commencement speech back in 2005, and it’s called the This is Water story. And the story goes that there are two young fish swimming along one morning, and they pass an older fish swimming in the other direction.

And the older fish says to the younger fish. Hey kids, how’s the water? And they pass each other and they each keep on swimming. And then one of the younger fish says to the other one after a few minutes, What’s water? And, you know, the story illustrates very beautifully how, um, there are, there’s an environment we’re all swimming in, which we don’t really notice, or even know what it is.

Um, because it, it’s all around us and it’s always there. And, In leadership or in an organizational environment, you know, one could say that the water we’re all swimming in is culture, but organizational culture is not so invisible anymore. Maybe 10, 15, 20 years ago it was, but nowadays most people are aware.

As they join an organization or they’re part of an organization, they will talk about culture. So culture is visible. My philosophy is that leadership is what shapes culture and leadership is that invisible, um, medium, which generates the currents, which often, very often, nobody really sees. And as you become a more conscious leader, as you know, if I can use that phrase, you begin to understand that, uh, as a leader, you’re responsible for shaping that environment.

And so you have to see what is invisible, um, so that you can shape it. And so, um, that now, you know, underlies my approach to leadership. I think, you know, with that goes, um, understanding your own values and being true to those. Um, and, uh, understanding some of the levers of leadership, which, you know, become a little bit more mechanical.

Um, but once you start to see leadership, then you understand how those leaders work. Does that answer the question?

Naji Gehchan: Yes. Yes. And I want to double click on, uh, on this and really on the culture piece. I, I certainly relate to what you said and I love how you framed that leadership is the invisible medium creates culture.

Uh, so you’ve, you’ve done and you created culture throughout different organizations. Um, and really organizations that were driving. innovation in healthcare, which is sometimes some people would say it’s easy to innovate and some others say it’s so regulated, it’s so hard. And I think it’s both right.

Both are right. I’m interested on how you have done this and what type of leadership or what was the most important ingredient that you had in the culture to be able to have high performing teams that are innovating

Richard Dale: in healthcare space?

I think that, um, and that’s a great question. I think there’s a mixture of two or three things and, and, uh, nothing I’ll offer here is, you know, brand new to anybody. I don’t think it’s, um. You know, it starts off, you know, it’s great to have a high performing team and great people who are committed to the mission.

Um, and so there’s an element of hiring, um, which goes into that, um, alongside that goes psychological safety on a team and an example I give that people talk about psychological safety, um, and we kind of know what it is, but it’s not necessarily clear how we create that. What does it mean to you. allow for failure to celebrate failure, um, to allow people to have opinions and express opinions, which might be different from what the leaders or what people think the leaders might might believe.

Um, so one example. Which I put in place at OptumLabs and I had used previously, um, is a root cause analysis, discipline and process. So, um, if something went wrong, which it did, you know, all the time, um, we would do a root cause analysis. Now, if something went right, we would also do what we called an after action review, um, which whether or not things went well, we would, you know, inspect what we did to learn how to do it better the next time.

And if it was a great success, then let’s, um, distill out what did we do well so that we can repeat it. But in particular, if something went wrong, um, we did a root cause analysis, and we were very clear that, um, we were not looking to blame an individual. That if something goes wrong in any organization, it’s a system failure.

And if we’re relying on an individual to be at the top of their game and remember everything in their head, Um, that’s a system failure, you know, everybody’s favorite, um, analogy is with the airline industry, which is everything has a checklist. So, at its simplest, you know, why are we asking somebody to remember what three things to do when they could have a checklist?

Um, why are we asking people to remember who to tell what when we could have a checklist? A racy chart, you know, who are we supposed to consult with? Who are we supposed to inform? Um, why are we making decisions, you know, based on opinion and anecdote when we could be looking at data, or we could be all looking at the same strategic criteria and scoring rubrics.

And so these root cause analyses would look at what went well and what went wrong and what was lacking in the system. And we would say over and over again, we’re not looking to blame anybody. And even if it looks like when we do this analysis that one person happened to be. You know, standing there when something bad happened or their action or inaction was a key part of the chain of events.

We can’t expect to rely to have a system succeed by relying on an individual to remember or be on the top of their game. What are we doing to support those people? And then we would separately say that doesn’t take away the responsibility and accountability for managers. To have expectations for their team and to do performance evaluations, um, at least on an annual basis, and to share feedback and to help to grow their people.

But managing an individual and their performance is separate from root cause analysis and, um, uh, at United Health Group has at many large organizations. We had a big matrixed organization, so we were working with, um, partners from other parts of the organization, and in particular we worked with, um, people in IT and data management, um, but also in compliance and in finance, and in those kind of organizations, people can be very quick to blame somebody from the other organization.

Oh, it’s their fault. Um, and so when we started doing root cause analyses, not only did I have to reassure people within OptumLabs that I was not looking to blame any one of them, I had to reassure our partners from other parts of the organization that we were not looking to shift the blame to them. Um, and over time, you know, I just made everybody do these root cause analyses over and over again, even on very small issues, as much to get into the habit of doing it and to Demonstrate that nobody was getting blamed and nobody was getting negative consequences for analyzing correctly what we could do better next time.

So that’s a long answer about psychological safety. Um, and then I’ll pick on one other facet. There are probably many more. Um, you know, how do we stay open and curious to innovative ideas?

And that’s learned as well. Um, so the little parable version of this is, you know, somebody comes into the office and comes into my office and says, Richard, we should paint the walls lime green. That’s an innovative idea. Right? We’re going to paint the walls lime green. And I, the first thing in my head is, why do we need to paint the walls at all?

And why lime green? And it’s the wrong color. And we don’t want the paint smell. And why is this innovative at all? Um, and when people come to us with innovative ideas. It’s very easy to fall into that kind of critical, judgmental expert, you’re using your expertise to immediately see that, um, the things which could be wrong with an idea.

So one trick I offer people is before you give voice to that, ask the person with the idea, what did you observe that led you to that idea? Did you see a problem or an opportunity? Really, what did you observe? And in this example, the person says, well, the walls are all crumbling, so we need to fix them and paint them.

And it’s like, okay, I may or may not like the idea of painting the walls, and I may or may not like the idea of painting them lime green, but I understand there’s a problem if the walls are crumbling, and that is something that we can work on together. And so trying to get under the thinking and honor the fact that a person is trying to come up with a solution and not just point out a problem, right?

Everybody’s told, don’t show up in my office with just a problem, bring me ideas. So ask, what’s the opportunity? What’s the challenge? What’s the problem? Now you have a conversation where innovative ideas, um, can be discussed. And even if you have to give a little bit of coaching to somebody, which is, well, you know, the corporate color is Blue, you know, well done for noticing that the walls are crumbling.

Let’s think about how we can fix that. One last thing I will say about health care, innovation in health care. There are many very large opportunities to innovate in health care. And the reality in health care is very often the best we can hope for is incremental innovation. And I think that we need to honor that and be realistic about that.

And we need to have a big vision and we need to keep our eyes on the prize. And we need to be okay with incremental improvement and incremental innovation, because changing healthcare involves. You know, organizational change. It potentially and very often involves changes in delivery of clinical care.

And so clinicians, physicians, nurses, other providers, um, who are under all sorts of pressure and now being asked to rethink how they’re delivering care. Rethink workflows. Um, and there are being asked to do that from all different angles. The financial flows in health care are very complicated, and there’s a lot of resistance to those changing outcomes.

And so we have to keep our eyes on the big vision and go one step at a time and celebrate those steps as moving in the right direction and creating a culture where it’s all about the big vision where we can never expect to get there in, in the small amounts of time and within any given planning cycle sets you up for disillusionment, but recognizing that this is a stepwise process for the most part.

Um, you know, hopefully creates the space for people to feel good about the steps they’re taking and the trajectory that they’re on.

I love the framing about,

Naji Gehchan: you talked about people, psychological safety, being open and curious. And as you shared at the end, it’s incremental, uh, innovation. And as you were talking about, um, you know, how to, uh, build a psychological study gave this great example. Um, and, and, you know, it made me think because you use the words discipline and kind of like the underlying culture of caring for one another, like being disciplined on doing them.

consistently when things go wrong and when things go well, and then ensuring that there’s a culture where people are trusting and not finger pointing. This, this is, this is exactly the philosophy we built. I thought a lot about this, um,

Richard Dale: even in, in

Naji Gehchan: businesses where, or in situations where you’re dealing with life and death, usually the more you’re disciplined on making sure that you’re learning.

For to improve and giving feedback that is more a constructive feedback for the team to learn rather than, as you said, finding who’s guilty. Like, it’s not about this, but consistently in the organization, we, we fall several times into. this other part of finger pointing. So, and I’m sure it relates to the culture you built in the beginning for you to have been able to deliver on what you’ve done at the end.

Richard Dale: So

Naji Gehchan: if we go to AI, which is one of your other

Richard Dale: passions,

Naji Gehchan: uh, what are the things you are most excited about for AI

Richard Dale: in healthcare?

It’s interesting because, you know, things are moving so fast that Um, as we know in the general conversation about a I, the opportunities seem endless and the risks seem, you know, in your face. Um, things that could go wrong or or might go wrong or do go wrong. And so, um, I’m excited about the long term opportunity for all of the information that we theoretically have.

About an individual person and their health and wellness or disease or health trajectory and all of the information we have about health care pathways and medications and other interventions and devices, um, and all of the literature which is published, um, about how to engage people in their own health and wellness.

There is so much of that information out there that without help at the point of care, it becomes very difficult to bring the very best for that patient in that moment. And I don’t think Any clinician, however, expert in that very particular thing at that very particular moment would say, Oh, I always remember everything which might be relevant.

I can always see everything about this person in front of me. So the ability to provide for the people at the point of care, the right information, the right Um, almost hints, you know, have you thought about, you know, maybe it’s differential diagnosis, but all of these different elements, um, and by the way, which, which are not only oriented around the specifics of the person we’re caring for, but also about the care team and what their strengths are and what their blind spots might be, um, to me, I think the end goal of all of this, it’s.

is coming back to what we’ve talked about for several years, if not many years now, you know, the right care for the right person in the right dose at the right time. Um, now, before we get there, and I do believe that that is not immediate in any sense, um, not least because the data is not really available properly yet.

Um, although, you know, the CMS final rule, which came out yesterday, continues to move that ball forward very slowly and incrementally. Um, before we get there, there are many other places that, um, AI can be helpful. So one example is, um,

you know, when you leave a healthcare encounter as a patient, do you really know what you have been asked to do, uh, as a patient? You know, if you’ve left the emergency room or an inpatient admission, you have pages and pages of discharge notes. Um, even if you’ve just left a primary care annual physical, you know, the doctor has said to you or the nurse practitioner, um, you know, please make sure you do X, Y, Z.

In follow up. Um, you know, it’s very possible that artificial intelligence knowing you as a person can make sure you understand, you know what you have been asked to do this. And this one is the really urgent one. And this is the one you should focus on after that. Um, and unfortunately, I have heard of stories of people who checked out of a primary care setting or an urgent care setting and did not understand that they had been advised to go to the emergency room.

They

did not understand they had been advised to go to the emergency room and they did not go to the emergency room. And later on, they ended up in an ambulance going to the emergency room, um, with potentially worse outcomes because of that gap. So that’s an extreme example, but helping in the communication.

Of what’s going on for an individual, potentially for a care team. I think that potentially comes sooner because it’s a more compact example. And then there are all of these diagnostic opportunities to just get better at diagnostics. And there are all of these, I mean, in, you know, in drug development, there are all of these programs now looking at drug development and it helps.

We’ve got, um, protein folding seemingly, you know, finally we’ve cracked that nut. And so, um, looking at all the different ways that we can look for candidates for a drug pipeline, um, look at potential toxicity profiles, look for efficacy profiles, um, look for new targets, look for new candidates to address those targets, um, you know, those are exciting opportunities as well.

So, it’s everywhere. And it’s nowhere yet. That’s,

Naji Gehchan: that’s a great summary. And as you said, so as you said, it touches drug from discovery to development. It touches care. It

Richard Dale: touches prevention,

Naji Gehchan: treatment. So eager as you are to see how this will impact us as a humanity. Anything that keeps you up though at night when

Richard Dale: you think about AI and its impact on humanity?

Yeah, it’s the same thing which keeps other people up at night. I think that, um, even before AI, um, you know, the first layer is to say the spread of. Disinformation and misinformation that can be accelerated and magnified by A. I. Um, and for people who have malicious intent to just create content at a much higher volume than before, and they might not believe they have malicious intent, but this goes to the next level.

If you peel back the onion one layer, why is there more distrust off the health care system, the medical system, caregivers? Science, why are there, um, you know, arguments about the, um, you know, the meaning of, um, results which come from well run, well orchestrated, randomized, controlled clinical trials from other scientific work, which is.

You know, at the gold standard, um, and underneath that erosion of trust is, um, both an explosion off knowledge and a more and more specialized. A generation of knowledge and a whole gap. Um, you know, I have a friend who works in the space between civics and science and helping think about how does society understand and absorb, um, scientific progress in a way that, um, is appropriately skeptical and knows how to ask the right questions.

And yet, is able to listen to reasoned thinking and, um, and understand why a sci scientific consensus emerges. And then recognizing that the science will continue to change and, uh, we will have a, uh, an initial set of knowledge, which we generate from, from the data and from experiments. Uh, and we can all agree that’s good science and it’s a good conclusion.

And five years later, we might find we’re wrong and we, we missed the boat. And I believe that there’s continues to be an open question about the, the mechanisms underlying Alzheimer’s disease. Are these proteins in the brain cause or effect? Um, and that’s a great example of good science. And even though many people, um, who are, you know, great thinkers can disagree on that, I can hold open the possibility that further work will, um, uncover hopefully a better and more compelling story behind it.

So all of that underlies the fact that to somebody who’s not educated scientifically, it’s difficult to know what to trust in the scientific and the medical field. And so we have this growing distrust, the inability to really manage that. And it doesn’t help that there are newspaper stories or internet stories published every day, which do not tell the difference between correlation and causation.

So that adds to the mistrust. And so now we’re back at the top layer, which is it’s so easy for misinformation to spread. For people, even a goodwill to be misinformed and spread information, which is harmful. And AI can support that or even accelerate that.

Naji Gehchan: I want us to pivot now and I’ll ask you a word and I want your reaction to it. The first one is

Richard Dale: leadership.

Uh, so the word which came to mind was authentic. And I think it goes with integrity. Um,

And I, some people confuse authentic leadership with transparency, and I think there are times you cannot be transparent as a leader. As a leader, you might be party to confidential information about your organization, which you cannot share, but you can still be an authentic leader, and you can still have integrity in every organization.

Conversation you have with somebody on your team or, or anybody. So authentic integrity, those are the three action. What about health equity?

Health equity,

you know, Sachin Jain posted on what was then Twitter and now X. And I think maybe he wrote a blog post about this a year or two ago. He said, why do we keep on talking about social determinants of health when really we’re talking about structural poverty and racism and inequality? And these are societal problems.

And so health equity, I think, um, is one facet of, um, the need for more equity in our society as a whole. And it’s driven by all of these things and that, um, I agree with his. All to not be blind to the human underlying causes and impacts of what drives inequity or equity by slicing and dicing it so small that now we’re talking about access to transport or pharmacy deserts, and it becomes very technical when what’s going on underneath it is the responsibility of society as a whole to fix and society Through its choice of leaders and policies needs to address this very broadly, and the health care system can only go so far in doing that.

Third one is Bill Gates.

Um,

I don’t know, maybe it’s become clear that I’m not somebody who likes to personalize things. Um, I will say that, um, I will answer your question in a minute. I will say that many years ago, I had the privilege of having lunch with Bill Gates. I was at a startup based here in Cambridge, Massachusetts called Vermeer technologies, which made front page, which was the world’s first WYSIWYG webpage editor.

And that company was acquired by Microsoft. When Bill Gates was still CEO and the entire company, all 30 of us flew up to Seattle, um, and we had a, you know, a round table lunch with Bill when he spoke about, um, why they were acquiring us and his vision for the, uh, for the acquisition. Um, and interestingly enough, you know, what you see is what you get with Bill Gates as well.

You know, in person, he seems to be the same person as, as, uh, we see on television and in documentaries. I think Bill Gates commitment to philanthropy and commitment to science driven philanthropy is laudable. I think he’s a very complicated human being, and I do not want to judge him. Um, we’re all complicated people with strengths and flaws.

Um, and if we all could try as hard as he has to make the most of the privileges that we might have, um, the world would be a better place.

Naji Gehchan: The final word is spread love and

Richard Dale: organizations.

You know, we don’t often talk about love in organizational settings, in most organizational settings. Um, but a few people and I congratulate you on being one of them talk about love in organizational settings. Um, and as we know, you know, love can mean many things. And, um, and it can be easy to kind of go off track with that.

But insofar as love means.

Going and showing care for the people that you work with and who work for you and who therefore you are serving kind of servant leadership model there. Um, and acting in a way that you would hope, for example, you know, the colleagues or the boss. Of your spouse or your child would be, um, behaving towards your spouse or your child.

Um,

um, not being quick to harsh judgment. Um, looking for ways to lift people up. Um, having authenticity and integrity in your dealings with them. Uh, these are the hallmarks of, um, of love. Of caring for somebody. And the mission, um, in a way that it is analogous to other places that we talk about love and in some faith communities and certainly in our families or with close friends, we think about love and, um, I think it is appropriate, uh, to use that language, um, and to be aware of its pitfalls.

Because, you know, unlike in ancient Greek, there’s one word for many kinds of love in English. Um,

but I think that kind of, um, you know, perhaps that’s one of the things which is invisible in the water that we need to make a little bit more visible and be aware of in our leadership.

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom, Richard, for healthcare leaders around the

Richard Dale: world? Um,

I think that, um, as

you become more conscious of The water, the leadership, and as you become more conscious as a leader of your role in shaping those currents, Um, I think it’s okay to be, to share that with the people you’re working with. To say to them, you know, I’m thinking about my leadership in a new way. I’m thinking of trying something different.

Um, I’m seeking your feedback. Um, that requires some vulnerability, you know, you can say to yourself, you know what, I’m going to try and do this a little bit better. I’m going to try and do that a little bit better. And you keep it to yourself. And maybe you have a coach or you have a friend who you tell it to.

Um, but you’re not necessarily telling the people you’re working with. I think that Um, it might be a good idea to think about sharing that with people and helping them support you on your journey. Um, and inviting feedback from them. Um, and by the way, if they start to see changes, you know, people find change difficult.

They can freak out with change. And so even if you are changing in positive ways. You know, you might somebody might come into your office one day, but you’re being so nice to me. Are you going to fire me tomorrow? Um, and so you can lower the temperature around change by telling people the changes that you’re planning to make.

So, I do think that vulnerability and that authenticity and that being kind of explicit with yourself and with your team about what you’re doing can be very powerful. And, you know, can I finish with one last story? Sure. Um, somebody who worked for me, uh, at that stage for a few years. And I’m going to use his name, um, Scott Regenstein, great guy, still a good friend.

He was, uh, a direct report of mine, and he one day said to me, Richard, can I take you out for lunch? I’ve got some feedback for you. So here’s a direct report telling me that he’s got feedback for me and can he buy me lunch? Um, so I guess that already starts that I, I guess I did something right. And Scott is a special person, but that was the setup.

And, uh, we went out for lunch and he said, Richard, I want to give you some feedback about how you delegate. Um, and delegation had been on my list forever of areas where I just, you know, every year in my performance review, it’s like, you could do a better job of delegating, delegate better. And I was like, I delegate great.

I don’t know, what, what more do they want from me? Scott told me that day in four words. Delegate outcomes, not tasks. So many people who are good at delegating know that. Uh, for me, that was a mind blowing moment. It completely changed how I thought about delegation. And I thought about it for not very long, and I’m like, Okay, I see that.

And I would look at the emails that I had sent people delegating things, and I had delegated a 25 point List of tasks where really the outcome was make the customer happy. Maybe you’ve got a better idea than me about how to make this customer happy, but I’m delegating that to you. Anyway, changes like that are not easy.

I worked out what I needed and I worked out. I needed. Um, support. And so I sent to all of my direct reports a little thing, which said, Look, I’m trying to get better at delegating. I know that this is where I fall down. Please help me. Give me feedback. Um, this was before COVID. I even had a little piece of paper on my, taped to my desk, on the other side of my desk, facing where the person would be sitting with the same little thing.

Help Richard delegate. Give him feedback if he’s not being clear about outcomes. Tell him to stop giving you tasks. And so there’s two or three different leadership lessons there. One, what a gift it is to have somebody like Scott, um, be willing to give their boss feedback. Number two, what great feedback and what great advice, and I recommend it to anybody.

Delegate outcomes, not tasks. And thirdly, maybe you can find ways to think about how you ask people around you to help as you look to improve your leadership.

Naji Gehchan: Well, that’s a great story and really a great way, uh, to, um, unfortunately end our chat. Uh, we could talk for hours and, um, it was really great to have you Richard with me and, and discuss those important topics for us in healthcare for being with me. Thanks.

Richard Dale: Well, thank you very much. I loved the conversation and I’m glad to be part of the Spread Love mission here. I wish you continued success with it. Thank you.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host, for a special episode in partnership with Jill Donahue for her new book “A Dose of Inspiration: 100 purpose stories from Pharma Leaders”. I am joined today by Nejma Chami Global Head of Medical Affairs at Grünenthal. Nejma spent years working in a medical practice before joining the pharmaceutical industry. She has since served in several leadership roles in medical affairs at Abbott, Novonordisk and now at Grunenthal. Nejma is a purpose driven leader with a mission to lighten the load of people who are suffering to make lives better.

Nejma, It is such a pleasure to have you with me today!

Nejma Chami: Thank you. Happy to be with you. And thank you for inviting me. Oh,

Naji Gehchan: sure. Can you first share with us your personal story? Why medicine? Why pharma? What’s in between the lines of your inspiring journey?

Nejma Chami: So, oh, you sent me back, uh, far, far away. So, um, yeah, why medicine? Um, before considering medicine, to be honest, I considered, uh, having, um, Pursuing law school because my father is a lawyer and I was always impressed by his way of impacting the people’s lives.

And he was always eager to find solutions and to see the impact he can have. On the daily life of the people he was interacting with, not only the people, but also their family. And, uh, so it, it was a drive for me, but then when I, uh, once I, I was considering what, what kind of career I want to have and what kind of, uh, of studies I want to, to, to follow.

Uh, I’ve seen that medicine. Cautious the, the line. So, so the, the tick, the box that I was looking for. So in, in medicine we are able to, to to, to completely change, uh, the, uh, the life of people and, uh, make them less suffer. And not only the, the, the patient we are treating, but also the, the, their family members.

So this is why I, I, I’ve chosen to, to, to have this. To follow the, uh, the, uh, the medicine school. And when I left Algeria to come in France. Um, I did a specialization in, uh, in oncohematology and I discovered that not only in my medical practice in the hospital, I can impact patient life, but also in working in pharma.

And this is where I became interested in the, in working pharma, I discovered what we can do and how. But by developing new treatments, we can, we can, we can have this great impact. So this is why I joined pharma. And I started from the field as an MSL and then I did all my career in medical affairs. So it was very, um, uh, a very, how can I say, rich.

Experience not only about about because of the the products I was working on, and the developing but also because of the people I was able to meet and to work with either. Within the company or especially outside of the company with interacting with the key opinion leaders, um, listening to their expectation and trying to understand where are the gaps and where we can have this added value and this great impact.

Well, thank you, Sharama,

Naji Gehchan: for, um, thank you for sharing a part of who you are, Najma, with us. Uh, you, you talked about your dad. I know your upbringing had a lot of influence on the way you think about your purpose. And how you are a service, uh, driven leader. Uh, how do you think about this in your daily job today, being in the pharma world?

You really chose to become a doctor to make lives better, as you said. So now looking back at your upbringing and what you do today, how do you make sure that you’re achieving your purpose in the pharma industry? And do you feel you’re fully achieving it?

Nejma Chami: I think that’s the way to make sure that I’m doing it.

Thanks. is by not losing the nose stuff. There’s one promise I did to my father when I moved to pharma because he was very disappointed with that when I moved to pharma and he considered that yeah you you you did medical school in order to not treat the patient and to move to pharma so you are in a way you you are not Respecting respect.

The, the, the view you, you did and the engagement you had when you entered the medical school. And the, the, the, the promise I, I, I, I gave him is that I will never, ever lose this north star. Being that the, the, the end user is a patient. What we are doing and everything we do is driven by the patient. I, I know that it, it can seem and, uh, cheesy.

But, but not at all, because if we don’t lose this drive, we know why we are thriving. We know why we are doing things. We know why we are working every day within the teams, within, with the experts in order to develop the new treatments and offer new solutions for the patients. And we, it gives us this.

ability to, to take always a step back, not being always driven by our projects, not always driven by our objectives, our KPI, because it’s a word we always have in pharma and having, I have worked also in commercial. So I, I, I know, uh, the, the, the, the pressure of the KPIs, but when we remind ourselves and when we mind our teams, what are we talking about?

And what kind of solution we are providing. It give us this, yeah. This north star, it give us this direction. We, we don’t lose. And that’s the, everything we do, we do it for the patient. And every change we can have or impact we can have on each patient life worth the effort we are doing. So, and this is what I try to, to, to, to share with my team members.

This is what we try to do on daily basis. And when the, the, the, the teams are overwhelmed. We always try to take this step back and remind ourselves why we are doing what we are doing.

Naji Gehchan: I so relate to that, uh, on different levels. I was really smiling when you were talking about your, your dad. I think several of us have, have experienced this, especially coming from certain cultures, I should say.

Uh, I’ve experienced, uh, this from our parents, our friends, and also. our colleagues, you know, as other physicians, um, and, and then how you talked about remembering every single time why we do what we do. And it’s really for those patients we serve. Do you have any tips on a daily basis? How you remind your teams?

Is there a way for you to pull back from, as you said, key performance indicators, projects being overwhelmed with operations we’re doing? To always keep this North Star you talked about any tips for other leaders listening to us.

Nejma Chami: I don’t know if it’s a tip. What I try to do is to be always a listener. Uh, so I’m, I’m, my door is open.

My laptop is open to, to, to my team members. And I, I always make a priority to provide, to give them the time to express. Any concern, any stress, any questions, and when they are overwhelmed about the, the, the, the timelines for the, the, the project becoming time consuming, we, I always tell them, yeah, we don’t speak about the project.

Let’s put the project aside. And let’s tell me, why are you here. Why are you doing what you are doing. Let’s remind ourselves that we are treating patients. We are not selling any product we are selling and providing treatments that will change patient life. So just have this thing to step back, think about it, and let’s talk in 10 minutes.

And I give them this time and we discuss again and my they know that my my door is always open because I know it’s easy to say and myself sometimes I’m just in the daily work and some and I need on a regular basis remind myself. Najma, you are you are losing your north star. So just take a breath and rethink why you are here.

This is what I share with my team

Naji Gehchan: members. And that’s really powerful, uh, and, and certainly constantly reminding yourself, ourselves that what we do is so important for the patients, uh, at the end of the day. As you said, this is, this is why we’re here. This is what every day, every single thing we do at the end of the day is going to hopefully benefit and positively impact patients we serve.

You’ve led teams in several organizations. You’ve done medical, commercial. So I’d love first to know when you move to commercial, the reactions probably of your surroundings to, you know, like there’s always for physicians, I feel people will say, I moved to the dark side to the pharma. And then when you say move to commercial, it’s like the very dark side.

And I’m sure both of us disagree with this. So I’d love first your thoughts about this. And then any guiding leadership principle that you always took with you throughout those experiences you had.

Nejma Chami: Yeah. When I think that the first reaction from the sales team, what, what is she doing here? So she’s coming from, uh, from medical.

So she won’t understand what we are talking about and she can’t understand our daily life. So, and, uh, it was, um, a very humbling experience. Because in this kind of experience, You need to come as, um, as a learner. You need to open your mind a maximum. Forget a little bit your expertise because in medical affairs, we rely a lot on our expertise.

And this is what everyone is expecting from us. But when you are in commercial, I think that the first thing is to listen and understand and make sure that the commercial team feels that you speak the same language. As them and you understand what they are doing and what you can provide them is also this direction when I was leading the sales team, and they were we were discussing the objectives.

I was always telling them, don’t think about the number of box of boxes of treatment, you will say, think about the number of patients. that will benefit from the treatment you are providing. So the more you, you, you, you, you, you give, the more patients will benefit from the treatment. It’s a shift of way of evaluating or considering the sales on the field.

And it’s being also able to understand What they are doing. They need to feel that when they speak to you as their leader, they know and they are sure that you understand what they are doing and what their daily life is about. So it’s always, it’s an exchange and it’s a trust relationship. You need to build trust.

I think that my first three months in my position in commercial was about. Listening, understanding and building the trust.

Naji Gehchan: You said, and it’s so true, right? When you think about it, patient by patient, right? And this is always how I felt about commercial or our commercial organizations. And while I was leading teams, it’s, it’s practically the last mile. Like without the work we do, patients would not get the medicine in their hands.

Right. And as you said, like it’s every impact is one patient’s being helped on the medicine they need to do. with the right balance on benefits and risks of this medication. So I loved how you framed it. So you said listening, understanding, and building trust. Is building trust for you listening and understanding or was there anything else that you did to build trust in your teams?

Nejma Chami: It was also about being hands on with the team, always supporting the team, challenging, but supporting them. They know that even if I challenge, I’m there, I’m there to support them, to make them grow, to grow together. So when every organization I joined or every team I joined, especially as a leader, my first objective was to make the people grow.

And I consider that I succeed. Was the people don’t need me anymore because they, they, they can manage without me being behind each of them because I showed them how to do things and they did it by themselves and they learned how to do it so they can rely on themselves. It’s this empowering people.

That’s key in our functions and for me, it’s the it’s the key driver. I’m happy when the team don’t need me anymore.

Naji Gehchan: But this is this is a real big testament of your leadership. You know, I I thought when I when I reflect on those things, I really relate to what you’re saying, which is I’m sure through transformations and leading leaders.

It’s sometimes one of the most terrifying things for a manager when they’re like, Oh, but what would be my job if my team knows to do everything? And for me, it’s always this transformative piece where you get to a point where actually. They really don’t need you. And this is where you obviously grow and you’re able to impact at the broader level.

So I love how you framed that, uh, on

Nejma Chami: their daily basis because they, they, they know the basics. They know how to do it. They know we agree on an objective. We agree where we want to go. We are very clear about the direction and the destination where we want to go. And then I’m eager to, to, to listen and to hear how they will go to the same destination because I can follow a path.

You can follow a path and both of us will arrive at the same destination at the same time. So I need to respect that everyone don’t have to apply my way of doing things. Or to follow the path I will follow to get to the destination. But I need to make sure that the destination is clear for everyone.

And that this is what we want to achieve together. This is where we want to go. And this is our main objectives. And what we want to reach. How we will reach it? I’m happy to listen from you. And perhaps I will learn from you and I will change my mind. And this is what I find very fulfilling in a leadership position.

It’s this seeing the people providing their own solution and not just waiting for me or saying because it’s easier when you are very directive. Yes, we do it this way. And I want it this way. And I want this timelines. It’s easier. It can save you time. It’s more time consuming. To let people try and fail and try again,

Naji Gehchan: you’re bringing several concepts here that I really value and love.

And it’s a great segue to my next session. And I’m feeling the humidity and what you’re saying. You’re really a humble leader to willing to learn and be open to others. So that’s a great segue for my next session where I’m going to give you a word and I would love your reaction to it. And the first word is leadership.

It’s

Nejma Chami: serving the people we are working with. It’s not managing them. It’s working with them and serving their best interests. Because what makes you a leader is the team you are working with.

What

Naji Gehchan: about patience?

Nejma Chami: It’s the main driver for everything I did until now.

Purpose.

Purpose is being honest. In everything I do and see the impact of every action. I can have

Naji Gehchan: the last one is spread love and organizations,

Nejma Chami: trusting people and be humble. Any

Naji Gehchan: final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?

Nejma Chami: Well, tough question. A word of wisdom. I think it’s, um, I would say, believe, believe in your dreams. Believe in what makes you, you believe in the change you can have and the impact you can have on people’s life, either your team members or each patient you, you can serve and Yeah, I think that I’m a strong believer.

And I do hope that I will continue to be this one.

Naji Gehchan: Wow, what an amazing charge and words of wisdom for all of us in the healthcare world. Thank you so much, Reshma, for your time and for being with me today. Thank you, Najee.

Nejma Chami: I was very happy to exchange with you. Thank you.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host, for a special episode in partnership with Jill Donahue for her new book “A Dose of Inspiration: 100 purpose stories from Pharma Leaders”. I am joined today by Angela Giannantonio, Senior Vice President, Human Resources, and member of the executive team at Travere Therapeutics. She has more than 15 years of experience in human resources management, with a strong track record of delivering a best-in-class employee experience and keeping patients at the center, while also driving successful growth and innovation across complex and global organizations. Known for her relentless focus on employee experience and engagement, Angela most recently was the head of human resources for Alexion Rare Disease where she led the company through its integration with AstraZeneca. She previously served as head of human resources for global commercial operations and corporate functions, leading the organization through hyper-growth and a complex pandemic while ensuring high employee engagement and performance worldwide.

Angela, It is such a pleasure to have you with me today!

Angela Giannantonio: Thank you, and it is a pleasure to be here.

Naji Gehchan: Can you first share with us your personal story? What brought you to HR, specifically in the pharma world, and now leading at an executive level in biotech? What’s your purpose story?

Angela Giannantonio: Absolutely. I reflected on this, and it is a bit ironic, because I didn’t intend to be in HR.

I didn’t necessarily intend to be in the pharmaceutical industry. But as I took the time to reflect on this in partnership with Jill, I really started to think back on my childhood and my mother and the compassion that she had with me growing up. Um, she was a young mother, a single mother, really focusing on her daughter and not herself and making sure that I was set up to have a strong life and childhood.

And during that time, I didn’t necessarily realize all that she was putting on her shoulders. Um, and during my childhood, she also took on, uh, being a caretaker for my cousin Kenny who had been diagnosed with Huntington’s disease. And now that I’m older and reflect back, I realize that it was something that was instilled in me that I wanted to help others.

And whatever I wanted to do, I wanted to be like my mom. And so as I went through my career, I gravitated towards people while I was in business and operations and sales, I always wanted to do something better for the people. And as my journey took me, I moved into HR because I realized that if I help the people internally, I can help more people externally.

And as that came to a realization for me, I also wanted to find a purpose driven organization. And so as I moved somewhere where it was really helping people in the company that I was in, I saw that it was the best opportunity for me to make a difference. Thank you

Naji Gehchan: for sharing that. Uh, you, you talked about HR and helping people internally, so I’m really interested and I’m going to immediately go there before we talk about the purpose.

Is it only a matter of HR helping people internally or employee experience? As you talk about it, I’d love to get your thoughts on this as you help, I imagine, several other leaders in the

Angela Giannantonio: organization. Absolutely. And so first, what I always say to my team is that we have to start with ourself. Because if we don’t take care of ourselves, then we can’t take care of others.

And I think a lot of times, when you’re in an organization under a GNA function such as HR, you really only focus outward. And so we start with taking care of ourselves, and that enables us to help the rest of the organization. And so for me, it’s helping leaders lead. And it’s also helping managers grow.

It’s helping each individual be their, their best selves. And so what we can do, um, around that is really critical. And I think for me, the change point for HR is that it used to be considered something that was in the back office and reactive and really operational. And that has changed. It has changed dramatically over the past few years.

I think as mental health has become an awareness, I think during COVID, HR became pivotal in helping employees navigate all of that was going on. And so with that, it just is this opportunity to really set up the organization and the external partners that we have to be their best selves.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah, certainly.

And I, you know, I relate to that. I’ve never been in HR, but I feel that the accountability of every leader is also making sure that we can create those positive experiences and people for people to be at their best. And your role is definitely crucial within an organization. create this. So as you have been passionate about employee experience and keeping patient at the center, you talked also about being in a purpose driven organization.

I would love to learn more from you on how do you do this. on a daily basis with your people, ensuring that those are really at the center of what they do every day.

Angela Giannantonio: I would say that, you know, I’m a very authentic leader. And so what you see is what you get. And so when I’m, I think it’s really important to, to create that trusting environment.

And so when we think about purpose at the core of what we do, Where I am today and where I’ve been previously is for our patients. And so we have our meetings where we come together and we’ll either share a story of a patient to ground us or we’ll share our wives and why we have chosen to be at the company that we are at.

And as you learn about everyone has a history and a path that they’ve gone on. And it creates sort of this trust and ability to think forward on what we need to do and where we need to focus on and let the small things really go. And so we can have a really crazy week. We can be in the middle of doing 150 things.

And if you stop for 5 minutes. And reflect in either one show appreciation or talk about someone who, while we think it’s really hard to have a 12 hour day for some people, it’s really hard to put on their shoes and to be able to go outside. And when you stop and really think about what matters, it changes your whole focus.

You can take a step back. You can breathe. You get done what you need to get done, but you also appreciate

Naji Gehchan: what you have. Going, going back to why we do what we do and wake up every morning. And as you said, I’m fascinated by how people in pharma and in healthcare industry are always here for a reason, right?

We all have this purpose. Sometimes we didn’t work the story behind it, but we’re all here for a reason. And this is why we wake up every morning. It is. Yeah. And you’ve led companies through growth, acquisition. So I imagine growth is something positive. It also comes with challenges when it’s like extreme growth, how you keep the culture and you’ve been accountable, uh, somehow with, uh, with the leaders you have and across the company on making sure that those happen in the best way for people.

This is your passion and what you do. So what is your biggest leadership learning? Throughout those experiences of expansion or and or

Angela Giannantonio: acquisition transparency. It is needed. You need to celebrate and own the mistakes and be okay with it and communicate those. Um, and and if you because what that does is goes back to that word.

I’m going to continuously use. It creates trust. And when you have trust in an organization, the ups and downs don’t matter because you’re all in it together. One of our core values is stronger together. And so that is something that is just a part of who we are. And I’ve seen that at every organization that I’ve been at, you know, where we, when we’re able to, and when I say be transparent, that’s all leaders.

That’s not just myself. It’s really critical. For the C. E. O. For the C. F. O. For people, managers to be equipped and be okay and feel comfortable to be transparent and own what we’re going through and that maybe it’s hard or that maybe we made a wrong decision and we’re going to pivot and pivot quickly and come together.

The other piece, I would say, on top of that is creating a speak up culture environment. Where employees feel safe to share what they’re feeling and how they’re feeling. You can do that anonymously, but you can also create an environment within your team so that they feel as though they have the right to speak up.

Because when you’re going through tremendous growth and change, they are the people that can help drive to success. They see the ins and outs. They see the holes. They also have great suggestions that we may not have. Um, and they can be a tremendous asset to helping build and maintain that culture.

Naji Gehchan: I definitely agree with that, especially on the speak up, uh, and obviously the trust.

It’s all about what, you know, we talk about in this, uh, in this podcast. I want to double click on speak up though, as you’re going through again, speed growth or speed acquisition, we’re always feel, and we’re all as leaders, always impatient and we want things to be done fast. How, how did you always ensure that we, there is a culture Where a speak up is not only said that it’s important, but it’s actually done and done in a proper way while balancing the speed to I several discussions I have said, Oh, well, it’s going to slow us down if we want to hear everyone, etc.

But at the same time, as you said, like, it’s the only way actually to accelerate. So I’m interested if you can give us some tips on how you ensure this speak up culture is always really done as you go through those changes.

Angela Giannantonio: Well, first, I’m going to say that we, I, have made many mistakes along the way in this, and so I don’t think that there’s a perfect science, but some, some things that I would say worked well are, one is, you know, always having the ability to have an external resource as a survey, um, and so having the right platform in place, you can very quickly gather sentiments from your employee base and see it in, and so to your point of not slowing things down, um, You can see it in a word cloud.

You can see a heat map of how people are feeling within 24 hours of putting a survey out and you can make it quick. But I think in other ways that have worked is helping them be involved in the change and the growth. And so you do that. And by doing that, you get a good sense of how the employees are feeling.

And really asking them to share in what we want to do in the purpose of driving us forward. And so you can do that. You know, we’ve had to pivot, but previously it was coming together in small groups and brainstorming and sharing here are our cultural values. What are we going to do to keep that and bring that forward?

What are we all going to commit to? And really making them a part of the process. So you’re not slowing it down. You’re embedding them in it because quite frankly, if you embed them in creating it, then you’re not going to have to come back and fix it. And so in the end, you’re not slowing things down.

You’re actually speeding it up.

Naji Gehchan: I’m going to give you a word now, and I would love to get your reaction. So the first one is leadership. Authenticity.

What about employee engagement? Critical to success. Can you tell us a little bit more? I know it’s a big passion of yours. Yes.

Angela Giannantonio: So if you’re employees, you have to find the secret sauce for your organization. And for us, it’s purpose. And as I said before, as you learn about each employee, every single one of us has a story that we go back to.

And when you really, truly understand your employee base and build that trust, The engagement comes and employees are willing to do and give 110 percent all of the time. And what’s even better is that with that, they feel fully satisfied. And so if you have a fully satisfied employee, because they are engaged.

Your company is going to do well, but in the end, you’re also all feeling really good about yourself and to do a full circle of that. I have to call out the importance of mental health. And when I think of employee engagement, I don’t just think about how an employee is engaged at work. I think about how they’re engaged all the time.

And so we need to make sure that we’re putting the right tools and support in place for our employees from a mental health perspective to ensure that they can be engaged both at work, but also at home.

Naji Gehchan: So how are you thinking about, uh, about this specifically, right? Like there’s several times and I obviously think about it all the time as a leader and, and people, uh, people manager.

There was always this misconception or the reality, maybe some years ago, of you put your things outside the door and you come physically probably to an office, which we don’t have anymore. But really kind of this disconnect of what’s happening at work and then your life. Where I feel these days, it’s so blurred and we live.

the craziness of our current world with unfortunate events constantly happening and more hate than than love and compassion. And it’s just so hard to put them outside of work. So how do you think about this these days, ensuring that obviously we talk about it, we ensure there’s an environment where people feel safe to bring them their true selves and don’t feel You know, they cannot do that.

So I’m intrigued on how you think about this because you mentioned mental health beyond only at work. So how are you thinking about it as an HR leader?

Angela Giannantonio: So I would say, you know, it first starts with me and my leadership style. And so I’m a working mom. And you know, when you ask me who I am, I’m a mom first.

Um, and you know, head of H. R. comes after. And I struggle with that. And so I’m using that as my, you know, one example here is that I show my team, but I also show Trevere and others. When I’m struggling and when I need to go be a mom and when I need to be present at work because I want to give permission for others to do that so that they can find the right balance in their lives.

Um, and so I think it’s really important as leaders to show that to show that we all have. This balancing act that we’re playing, whether we’re a caretaker, a mom, we have a pet that is new to the family, whatever it may be. So that’s the first piece, right? And so showing my vulnerability in that there are days where they’re tough, it’s tougher for me.

And that’s okay. Or there’s days where I’m on an executive call, and I’m cheering for my daughter at a soccer game, and they’re all comfortable and supportive of that. And that is something that is so critical, I think. And that’s not just me, that’s our leadership team in creating that environment. But then secondly, when there are events that happen, which seem to happen on a consistent basis, it’s when those happen, and I’m either with my own employee.

In a group setting, whether it be with the executive team or leaders, before we get into what we’re getting into, I stop. How’s everyone doing? What’s one word to describe how you’re feeling today? One word. We go around, we share our one word, we talk for a bit, and then we move on. It just allows for that moment again, because to your point, we are all working so hard and you just get into the day to day to day if you stop and take that moment that is so critical, it really helps people to feel as though, okay, I’ve been able to share at least how I’m feeling today.

It could be I’m exhausted. I’m overwhelmed. I’m really sad about today’s events. Um, it allows for that, that ability to be able to do. So this is such a

Naji Gehchan: great tip. I’ll, I’ll use it. I checked on emotions. I do it. Um, I learned how to do it. I should say from my daughters. Actually, since you shared about being a mother and It’s so powerful, but I love the idea of putting one word behind it.

I’ll try it. The third one I’m going to give you is D E I B.

Angela Giannantonio: It’s a must. And so, you know, as we think through, I think there’s, there’s so many different ways to think about it. I think it all starts with inclusivity and having that sense of belonging, but you need the diversity of thought, of background, in order to have it all come together. Um, and it goes back to that ability to have that speak up culture and to share what you’re feeling and what it may be right or what it may be wrong.

And again, goes back to vulnerability and being able to say, I’m not sure I quite understand that. Could you explain it to me? It’s an education. It’s an evolution. Um, but it’s an absolute must because without that a company can grow stale.

The last word

Naji Gehchan: is spread love and organizations.

Angela Giannantonio: This one just brings a smile to my face because, oh well let me think of the one word first, um, powerful.

Naji Gehchan: I want to know why it brings a smile.

Angela Giannantonio: Well, I think that, you know, love can be seen as something as, I think, a weakness at work, um, and it’s not. And I think that’s why, for me, it’s, if you have the compassion, you have the trust, the integrity, It automatically creates and builds high standards throughout your organization.

And if you spread that, it is such a powerful thing. And I’ve been at organizations that may not spread love, and I have been at organizations that do, and the differences are tremendous. You wake up every day and no matter what is happening, you feel safe and welcome at your work. You spend a lot of time at work.

You want to feel welcomed. You want to feel as though you can succeed. And if you have an environment where it’s safe and people are spreading love, it is truly a different experience and no one’s ever going to want to leave.

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?

Angela Giannantonio: I would just say continue to be your authentic self with your teams. I think it can go a tremendous way and it builds an opportunity for others to be able to lead in that same way. And the other piece that I just want to say is there are quiet people on your team, pull them out.

Don’t necessarily put them where they’re uncomfortable, but seek their opinions and their thoughts. Because a lot of times. They don’t share them, and they have some really great insights that may be overlooked or missed.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, Angela, for being with me today and this inspiring chat.

Angela Giannantonio: Yes, thank you. I’m honored to be here.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host, honored to be joined today by Rob Perez. Rob is an Operating Partner at General Atlantic, providing strategic support and advice to the firm’s investment team and portfolio companies in the Life Sciences sector. Before joining General Atlantic in 2019, he was Managing Director of Vineyard Sound Advisors, LLC, an advisory practice focused on growth companies in the biopharma industry. Prior to that, Rob had several roles in the biotech/pharma industry starting as a medical representative to becoming President and CEO of Cubist Pharmaceuticals before its sale to Merck in 2015. Rob is also the Founder and Chairman of Life Science Cares, an organization that provides human and financial capital from the life sciences industry to the best non-profits working to alleviate the impact of poverty in the US.

Rob, It is such a pleasure to have you with me today!

Rob Perez: Thank you Naji, a pleasure to be here!

Naji Gehchan: I remember the first time we talked, you shared that if there is one thing you’d want as your legacy, it is a legacy of impact in life science. And what an impressive legacy you’ve built… How did it all start?

Rob Perez: Well, Life Science Cares actually started, um, with, I guess I can go back a little bit and say the reason that I got involved in, um, kind of giving back and community service is I’ve felt since kind of my early days in my career that I’ve been very fortunate to have found this industry.

Um. It was really dumb luck more than anything else. Uh, I didn’t know about the industry growing up. I didn’t have any desires to do it when I was in college. I wasn’t even that big of a fan of science to be candid. Um, but somehow I lucked into a job as a sales representative in, um, in biopharma coming out of school.

And that’s how I kind of started in the business. And so, um, the, the fact that that dumb luck, um, afforded me this amazing life, this amazing career, when so many that I grew up with, so many of the people I went to school with had even more or just as much certainly talent and smarts and, and desire, um, as I had, but they didn’t have the same luck.

So because of that, I’ve always felt like part of the return for this blessing is to, um, give other people this chance, try to help other people access this amazing, uh, this amazing industry and frankly, just help people generally. So it’s been a big part of my life, and it was a big part of who we were at Cubist, a big part of the culture that we built at Cubist.

And so when Cubist was acquired, uh, we, you know, I really wanted to do something else related to community service. And so I, um, talked to a lot of people in Boston about philanthropy and, and ideas, uh, on how I could be involved. And the, frankly, the idea for Life Science Cares. hit me in the middle of the night one night like a lightning bolt.

Um, and, uh, I’ve been kind of following that, that epiphany ever since. And so that’s really what started life science cares. And since that very night when I wrote out the deck or what would become life science cares, uh, and I sent a message out to an A number of dozens of leaders asking what they thought with a lot of fear, frankly, that they would come back and say, Hey, this is crazy.

And B who are you to be asking about this? You’re not like the leader of the industry. Um, they all came back and said, this is great. How can we help? We’re in. And that’s the way it’s been since the very beginning.

Naji Gehchan: I love it. And for sure, we’re going to dig more into what you do, uh, through a life science case.

But before that, you talked about the culture you built in Cubist, uh, and you’ve had several roles in biotech. You led Cubist Pharmaceuticals as its CEO and through acquisition with Merck. So I’m intrigued about the culture and what is really your biggest leadership learning through the journey as an operator in, in the biopharma industry.

Rob Perez: Well, culture was a big part of what made us different. We weren’t the biggest company. We were competing against large pharma in markets that were, that were typically, um, dominated by larger pharma previously. And so, uh, you know, we believed that we needed to have a different business model in order to, uh, be effective at our size.

And part of that was having the right people. And in order to attract the right people, you really need the right culture. So, um, I would say I could, could, could describe cubists, um, uh, culture in, in three words, one was patience. And that was the first. Um, the second was, uh, employees. We were big on our people and the third, which may be a little bit different, was community.

Um, and we, we really believe that if we got those three things right, um, we were going to attract the best people we were going to do right by our shareholders and ultimately, um, Deliver tremendous, um, and outsized outcomes for them and ultimately, um, do right by the world. And so we spent a lot of time thinking about our broader community, allowed our people to, um, both get involved with the things that the company was involved with from a community standpoint, but also individually, we encouraged them to, to do what they felt was important to make the world a better place.

And. I always had this view that, that extraordinary people, which is who we were targeting, are not just extraordinary when they’re in, in between your walls, they’re extraordinary all the time. And so to ask them to only focus on being extraordinary for you is a little selfish. And so what we did was we tried to get extraordinary people to be extraordinary.

And that meant with Cubist and in other ways, and because of that, we attracted extraordinary people.

Naji Gehchan: I love this vision. And I’m so I’m intrigued, you know, in moments of growth, obviously, with investors, and shareholders, as you said, how did you convince them that focusing on this is as important as anything else, if not more focusing on people and community service?

Rob Perez: Yeah, we didn’t need to convince them. Um, the, the, the fact that, that they were the people who they are, um, or who they were, uh, uh, was, uh, something that they were looking for. I mean, the reason, one of the reasons that they chose Cubist was because of our commitment and our focus. Both in terms of patients, most importantly, um, but also on the broader world.

So, um, we, I believe culture is something that if, if your, if your culture is like everyone else, if it’s kind of milquetoast. You don’t really have a culture. Um, and so your culture should, uh, attract those who your company and business model need and frankly repel those who aren’t going to fit well in your culture and in your environment.

And so, um, this, this focus on togetherness and on, you know, doing something bigger for the world. Which we were trying to do in the anti infective space when, frankly, most companies had left. We were going to attract people who had that kind of mindset. And the folks who were really kind of more self, uh, more independent, if you will, you know, they wanted to just do it for themselves and, and were all about kind of the financial driver of their independence.

Those people weren’t going to fit that well within Cubist. And so they, they tended to roll off. Um, and what, what it left was an organization that was very much aligned on how we were going to win. And so when you have a strategy and a culture that align, that’s when the magic happens. And I think that’s what we had at Cubist.

I certainly

Naji Gehchan: relate and agree with any tips that you give leaders and healthcare on how to build this culture because we hear about it. We talk about it. And as you said, it’s not only saying that it’s actually living it and ensuring your people live it and transfer it across the organization. So any, any tip you found as you were building it, uh, super important.

Rob Perez: Yeah, I speak on this a lot with companies and, um, and it’s not easy. And so the first point is what I said before is, um, you have to ask yourself how much your culture is unique. Because what I find a lot is, um, management teams and leaders trying to develop a culture. They often involve, you know, consultants and, and, um, you know, these broad groups and you end up with this, uh, very middle of the road.

Um, set of principles, whatever, that if you closed your eyes, it could be any company USA, right? Or at least any company, healthcare and life sciences. So that’s the first thing is to make sure you avoid the, um, the, the cultural norms that, um, could be anybody’s because then it’s nobody’s. Um, the second is trying to create a culture that isn’t really you.

So the, you know, the cultures that, um, have. Uh, this aspiration. But if the employees look at it, they say, that’s not us. That’s not who we really are. Um, that is really can be actually damaging, um, because it’s not authentic. And so the, the wiring of the leaders, um, I think really does matter. And you have to kind of look in the mirror and decide who you really are.

And then the third thing, um, is I think cultures have to match how you’re going to compete. Um, we are, and, and you realize that you’re, like strategy, you’re making choices with your culture. No culture is perfect. So, at Cubist, we wanted to Um, we were competing against larger companies, and we did not have the scale that they did.

So our belief was, we were going to be smarter, we were going to learn faster than, um, our competitors. So that was our competitive differentiation. We were going to learn faster, adapt quicker, and move To what the customer needs better than our competitors. Well, if you have that kind of environment, you’re not gonna be able to have a culture that is very kind of dictatorial, very top down, et cetera, because you’re never gonna learn sitting in a home office.

So we had to have a culture that enabled people to challenge to, to bring new ideas. To, you know, we had a culture where anybody could, um, could come up with an idea and could share it with the president and CEO. Um, you know, the, the Mike Bonney and I would have lunch with employees. In the, uh, cafeteria, you know, uh, between the two of us, like two or three times a week and just employees from all levels.

And we get everything from people questioning our, our strategy to our shareholders, to what are you going to do to fix the phone in the Washington conference room, right? There was, but when you’re. When you have a culture where anybody can comment about anything, um, that’s, that’s the kind of place that you have to, you have to realize.

And, but you give up some things too there, Naji. I mean, you, we weren’t as fast as Some companies would be we were not competing on speed. Um, and when you have this kind of culture where everybody has a comment and the ability to comment, it’s not as easy to say we’re going right. And everybody just says, Yes, sir, we’re going right.

That’s not the way it worked. The cubist. If I said we’re going right, people would say, Why? Right. You know who chose right? Who gave you the right to say it was going to be right, right? So it was very, very collaborative. Inclusive environment and that worked with the way we we competed. If you’re a different company and you need to compete differently, then you have to think about how that culture fits into your competitive dynamic.

Well, that’s

Naji Gehchan: certainly a culture as you’re describing where people were thriving and obviously it led to great results. Anything you would have changed in it through? You know, growing the company to acquisition anything when you reflect, you would have done differently.

Rob Perez: Well, look, I think, um, different, you know, I was a cubist for 11 years.

And so the company went from a small company to well over a thousand employees. And that change involves. Uh, you know, kind of evolving the company as well. And so the culture had to change. Um, you know, well, I shouldn’t say the culture had to change. The processes had to change and we tried to do it consistent with the culture, but you also had to realize there that there were times when you just had to adopt new thinking.

I used to write a blog at, at, um, uh, Cuba’s to try to the employees to try to help them to understand this. Some of these changes that we need to make as we got bigger and A lot of that blog was about trying to, to, to understand that even though our cultural values remain, our processes do need to change from being a 1200 person company, from a a 200 person company, there’s things that we have to do differently.

We can’t have everybody in a meeting room. For example, um, you know, at some point when you’re in a meeting room and you’re broadcasting that meeting to a different meeting room, you’re probably off the rails in terms of inclusiveness. So, at some point, we had to say, look, not everybody needs to be at every meeting.

Um, and so, uh, some of those cultural norms. Start, you know, kind of busting at the seams as you get bigger, and you need to, you need to try to figure out ways to, in a way that’s consistent with who you are, um, develop the processes that are, that are needed for a bigger organization. Well, thanks for that.

Those

Naji Gehchan: are great learnings. Uh, let us know more about Life Science Cares and how really your organization is empowering the life science community to make change and impact on one of the most intractable social issues. poverty. That’s a very big commitment you’ve done and you’re having impacts. Can you tell us a little bit

Rob Perez: more about what you do?

Thank you. And thank you for the question. Yeah. So life science cares essentially is the industry’s way. And when I say industry, I define that broadly in life science. It’s not just biopharma companies, but the industry’s way of trying to harness the amazing talent, resources, and compassion. Of the life sciences industry and bring those resources to bear on issues related to poverty.

So what we do is we aggregate resources, both human and financial with an emphasis on human, frankly, um, and then find the best nonprofits. Doing work, um, in poverty in, in one of three areas. The first is, um, areas associated with access to, to needs of basic human survival. So hunger, homelessness, um, opioid addiction, health equity, et cetera.

The second area is access to education. And we define education pretty broadly from early at all the way to college entry and college success. And then the third is access to economic opportunity or nonprofits that Um, work on breaking the cycle of poverty, and those are organizations doing work in job training, job creation, um, uh, economic development, et cetera.

So, um, we, we search for the best nonprofits who can really use our help and partner with us, and we provide financial and human resources to help them do what they do bigger and better. So we started that in Boston in 2016, um, and are now operating in five. Um, uh, life sciences hubs. So it’s Boston, Philadelphia, New York, San Diego and San Francisco Bay Area at present.

Um, and there’s a, there’s a fledgling operations just getting underway in Basel, uh, in, in Switzerland as well, which is. Oh, wow. Yeah. There’s a few folks there who’ve taken it up. So, um, and really the goal is to, um, to, to make a difference, to make an impact. Um, it, it really is a very simple idea and it’s a very grassroots effort in, in those.

In those communities, the leaders of the industry have come together to bring themselves and their companies, um, to, to, to make a difference. As a matter of fact, the, the organization is essentially funded, all the administrative or back end costs are funded by the leaders of the industry. In each, in each area, there’s a board of directors and a board of advisors.

Uh, in Boston, I think there’s 200 plus board of advisors. And those those individuals give money out of their pocket every year to cover the administrative costs of the organization so that when we take in donations from companies or philanthropists, we can give give pass that through directly to our nonprofit partners.

So it really is a grassroots effort. That, um, has, you know, just blown up. And so I’ve just been amazed by the, um, the impact of the organization in a pretty short amount of time. Oh, it’s certainly

Naji Gehchan: impressive, uh, all the impact on, uh, people, as you said, and the communities that you’ve been able to, uh, touch and help through these.

Three different areas you’ve been focusing on, uh, and any specific program you would like to highlight. I know there was some communications during JP Morgan that happened last week. Anything you want to highlight specifically on the program as I know you’ve been expanding?

Rob Perez: Thank you. Yeah. So, um, a couple of things.

Well, one is JP Morgan was kind of a, a pinch me moment for me. Uh, I was really blown away to have, and we had a panel at the conference. Looking at industry reputation, which was amazing. Um, JP Morgan helped us to have a reception at the Westin, which is like unheard of, um, and, uh, um, you know, just, uh, amazing support.

Additionally, we had a, um, the Gilead foundation agreed to match. Funding that came in in and around the conference up to 250, 000. And we’re, we’re really close. We may have hit it. I haven’t heard today, but there’s still time if people want to donate, they should go to our website and help us to get over the top.

But we’re going to be really close, if not at that 250, 000. Raise. So Gilead will put in another 250 to get to 500, 000 raised to impact poverty just around the JPM conference. So that was just really cool. And again, to see this idea taken up like that was was crazy. And then the other thing that we’re super proud of, as I mentioned, one of the areas of our focus is in economic access to economic opportunity.

And the one thing we didn’t see. Um, nationally, at least, was an internship program. There’s great data about the power of that first internship, particularly for students who don’t have access to those, to those kinds of connections and resources. So we created, um, our own, uh, internship program called Project OnRamp.

We started this in Boston a few years ago. And the goal is for students who’ve been impacted by poverty, um, and though all these students are what’s called Pell Grant eligible, so they, um, they are, um, in college now, rising sophomores and juniors, but all who’ve been impacted by poverty, many of whom are, um, students of color and first generation students.

We allow them to get their first paid internship in a life sciences company, and that includes. You know, clinical and lab, um, lab internships as well as business, uh, internships within companies and well as well as companies associated with or that serve the industry. This has been tremendously successful for students, many of whom have gotten their 1st job now that we’ve been doing it a few years, um, in a life sciences company.

But what I’m really impressed with. What’s been really remarkable. I love to hear the stories from the, from the young people. That’s always great. And always, you know, pulls on your heartstrings, but so many individuals in the industry have talked to me about, um, how impactful this program has been for them because they didn’t realize that there was talent at the types of schools that many of these kids.

Um, uh, go to or attend. So we’re talking about state schools, frankly, schools that I school like the one I went to that, you know, weren’t places that biopharma companies usually recruit at. Um, but but these students are showing that there’s talent everywhere. And that’s the point of this. We really believe that we can make a difference in the workforce of the industry.

So we now have a, um, uh, a philanthropic donor who’s remaining anonymous, who looked at the program and what we were doing and said, this is amazing. I’d like to see if we can do it bigger. And so he has given us a challenge. To figure out how to get to greater than 1, 000 student internships a summer, um, in over the next, it’ll be now for we’re in year one of that plan, um, uh, over five years.

And so last year we did about 300 internships last summer, and we’re growing to to get to over 1000 kids every summer. So that’s another fund that we’re raising to get the remaining. Um, it’s like a 6 million commitment. Um, we’ve got about 5 million in, um, and so if people are interested in donating to Project OnRamp, we can use their help to get us over the top there as well, but I truly believe that that program is going to be impactful for, um, for the industry because it will expand the talent base, um, where we’re targeting, and that I think can ultimately lead to new insights, new innovation and ultimately serving patients better.

Uh, certainly.

Naji Gehchan: And this is, this is really congratulations. It’s impressive, inspiring, and definitely it will help us, uh, grow, think differently, be more inclusive and ultimately serve better the patients, uh, that we, uh, we have constantly on our minds. Thank you. Going out of JP Morgan, also a lot was happening during this week, and you’re an expert in the biotech field.

What are you most excited or looking forward to for our biotech industry when you think for the decade ahead of us?

Rob Perez: Well, I think, first of all, the pace of change. You know, I’m an old guy. I’ve been in the industry 30 plus years, and innovation has been a part of the industry, obviously, for all 30 and certainly predating me, but the pace of innovation, in my opinion, has sped up.

Um, you know, we’re talking about cures in diseases now that we couldn’t have imagined when I started. Um, the, um, the amount of I know I’m in the capital markets business in my day job. Um, and I know there’s times when, uh, this past year when folks were hurting a little bit from a capital markets perspective, but the amount of capital that’s that’s available currently for that for these innovations is also something that we’ve not seen previously.

So I’m really bullish on the industry. Um, I think the, the, um, you know, we’re just scratching the surface on the types of technology that can really make a difference in human health. So, um, overall, I’m, I’m definitely bullish and I, I wish I was younger and I wish I had another 30 years, um, because I think what we’re going to see over the next Over the next several decades, it’s going to be just mind blowing.

Naji Gehchan: You’re still young, Rob, and your impact is beyond only capital. As you’ve been doing, you’re touching communities, bringing young talents throughout our organizations. It’s just impressive what you’ve been doing.

Rob Perez: Thank you. Well, the other, one other thing I’ll mention, um, and back to J. P. Morgan. The other thing that we did at J.

P. Morgan is I’m a co founder of an organization called Block. biopharma leaders of color. Um, and another just amazing, uh, night, we had a reception at JP Morgan and to see a room full of, and I mean full, of leaders who were at the JPM conference who are black and brown people who, um, frankly had never been to a meeting like that, where they were, uh, you know, not one of the only.

Um, people, uh, in a room, um, to be in a place that was full of high level C suite leaders, um, and as well as young people from the industry together. And that’s another thing that I think is really exciting about what’s to come is we’re tapping into talent everywhere. You know, we had a fireside chat with Yvonne Greenstreet, who’s a good friend, uh, who runs, uh, El Nihilum, and, um, Yvonne was amazing in that, but it was great for, uh, people both, uh, at the top of their career and folks who were just getting started to hear her story and to see The kind of leadership that, you know, the, this is a woman of color leading one of the industry’s most significant companies, and that’s happening over and over again.

So that’s another area of great pride. Um, and, uh, area we’re looking to grow to be able to help enable. And, um, and amplify, uh, people of color in the industry. For sure. And

Naji Gehchan: it’s, uh, it’s, it’s a good start, but so much still needs to be done. And you’re definitely making a huge impact to make these things move forward.

I’m going to give you now a word, and I would love your reaction to it. Okay. The first one is leadership.

Rob Perez: Um, my first reaction is misunderstood. Um, I think, you know, number one, I think leadership, great leadership is, um, is still more rare than it should be. Um, and that’s because A, it’s misunderstood. B, um, people don’t work at it the way that they work at their technical skills.

And because of that, I think we sometimes, um, don’t achieve potential because, uh, leadership is lacking. I know in the capital market space, and a lot of my venture capital friends will tell me that they’re, that the, the, the capacity constraint on their, um, starting companies and growing companies It’s not ideas or technology, it’s leadership.

Um, it’s finding the right people, not, not people who aren’t smart. There’s a ton of smart people in the industry, but finding leaders. So, um, my first thought there is, is, uh, I think leadership’s a bit misunderstood and mis uh, and underappreciated. Um, and I think if people spent more time both studying and thinking about leadership as they think about their technical skills, uh, we’d have even better companies.

The second one

Naji Gehchan: is DEIB. We talked about a lot diversity inclusion before, but I’d love your perspective on

Rob Perez: that. Oh man, if we only had more time, Nagi. But look, I’m, uh, I’m concerned about, uh, about DEI because I think, um, it is being kind of misappropriated as a culture war, um, topic. And that’s unfortunate because I don’t think it’s, um, you know, I, I think there are people who, uh, you know, want to kind of weigh in on that part.

I don’t, I don’t go there because I, well, I have my own points of view on, on the fact that it’s the right thing to do. I don’t think that’s the reason why companies should adapt, um, DEI policies. I think the reason to adapt it, um, DEI policies is because it’s good business. Um, there is tremendous data that suggests that companies that embrace, um, D.

E. I. Policies do better, um, for their shareholders. And it’s not rocket science. It’s because you’re tapping into talent from everywhere. You have a bigger pool from which to, um, to, uh, to gather talent and your customers, your shareholders and your employees. all happen to be, uh, people who come from all walks of life.

So why you wouldn’t want to tap into talent from all those walks of life, um, also just kind of, um, uh, remains a little confusing to me. So I think DEI is good business. Um, I think it’s become A, you know, political, um, and, and it actually being turned into a negative statement, which is really unfortunate.

And I guess part of a sign of the times, but without going into that part, which again, I have lots of opinions about, but probably not the right time and place. I would just say that I would ask people to think about. The benefits to the business. Um, uh, last week, I think Mark Cuban and Elon Musk were going at it on X about DEI Mark Cuban said something like, look, I hope you, you, uh, uh, you get rid of all of your DEI policies and, and basically piss off all of the.

Uh, candidates who don’t come from your one, um, kind of way of, of attracting talent. I’ll take all those people. I’ll take all those people, I’ll take all that talent and I’ll beat you every time. Um, and that’s, that’s, he’s not arguing that it’s a, um, that it’s the right thing to do. He’s arguing that it’s the best way for his business.

And I think that’s the way I think about it is, um, we really need to, to appreciate that ideas can come from anywhere. And the more we do that, the better off we’re going to be. Oh, for sure.

Naji Gehchan: And it’s proven again and again. And personally, how I build team, I’ve seen it building team that are diverse from, uh, different perspective, thoughts, ethnicities, et cetera, would definitely bring richness to, uh, to the work and, and impact broader.

And there’s something else you said that really resonated with me. When I think about being different or being yourself at work, you talked about, um, the energy tax. Of being different in the workplace. Can you can you share a little bit more

Rob Perez: about it? Sure. Um, I wrote a blog about this, um, you know, several months ago, or maybe even years ago.

Um, and, uh, it was about this, this, this energy tax. And a lot of people, I think it resonated with them because they, they, they feel it. And the point of the piece was not necessarily written towards the different. But written towards the people who were in the majority, um, to be able to say, Hey, understand that this exists.

We’re not asking you to change anything. We’re not asking you that there shouldn’t be government programs on it. That’s not the point, but just understand that it exists. And let me just go a little bit deeper. So people understand what I’m talking about. Um, first of all, different is in the eye of the different, right?

And so in, in, uh, you know, you have protected groups. I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about situations where you feel like almost everyone else. comes from a very similar point of view. They all kind of get this spoken and unspoken rules. And you have to interpret them. Um, you have to kind of be in that environment and you have to go through some mental process to try to understand how to best fit in, in that environment.

That’s what being different feels like. And it’s, again, it’s the, it’s, it’s women in boardrooms, it’s people of color in management suites. It’s, um, it’s, you know, people who, um, are LGBTQ who are, um, you know, working in a, in a team where they’re the only. Uh, person with that sexual orientation. Um, so those folks, when they, uh, have an idea, or have a point of view, they don’t just get to spew it, out of, from their brain, out of their mouth.

They’re, that, that thought has to go through a process of, okay, if I say it this way, How might that be perceived? May or will I be offending anyone? What will they think of me? Will it impact my advancement? Um, all of that, uh, wiring is exhausting and it is a, it is a, um, an extra filter that, um, others don’t have to do.

And you could argue that even in the most Um, welcoming environments where people would say, why would you do that? I have no, no inherent bias. I, you know, you’re the greatest. Even in those environments, they’re going through that process because that is how they achieve. That’s how they’ve gotten to where they’ve gotten.

So the point that the point of the piece was really to say, be aware. that this exists, both for the people who are going through it and who may have this, this fatigue, um, that builds up over time and, and weren’t really sure what it was, but also to the people who are in the majority to say, it’s not, not a bad idea to check in with people at times to say, how are you doing?

I get it. And how can I be helpful? To make sure that this isn’t a problem for you. So that was the point of the piece. Rob,

Naji Gehchan: for sharing it here. The third word is health equity.

Rob Perez: Oh, wow. That is a, that is a really huge, um, issue, uh, particularly right now, I think. Um, and for Life Science Cares, it’s something that we’re scratching our heads on how we can engage, um, uh, best.

Let me, let me break it down a little bit and talk a little bit about at least how, how I’m thinking about it as a, as a chair of Life Science Cares. Um, and this is only one small part of health equity. But, um, I think people in the industry will, will appreciate this. Those of us in the industry, even people like me, who I’m a marketing major from Cal state LA, I am my family’s go to person on medical issues because of the access that I have to, uh, to care, to the medical industry, and I’ll bet that most people who are listening now.

Either those who are absolutely qualified to be them, but even those like me who are unqualified tend to be that person within their broader circle because of the access that we have to information to, um, experts, et cetera. Now, think about. Uh, the person who is in an inner city or in a, in a rural area with no connections at all.

Um, you know, uh, I’ve, I have, I’ve had, you know, like most people my age, health things that pop up, um, and I, you know, can access the best physicians. Um, and be able to cut months off of the time that it would take me to get it. Um, that’s just because of the, the blessings of my career and, and, and the access that I have.

But then I think about people who are, who don’t have that access and who, you know, have diseases that progress because they just don’t, either they don’t trust. the medical system or they just don’t have the access. And that’s one of the things that we love to try to work on it. Life Science cares is how can we tap into this amazing resource?

That is the life sciences community and help people to get more access, help people to, um, to, you know, just essentially get more information, get more access to care. And again, I’m not blaming our healthcare system. I know that this is a challenge and I’m on the board of Dana Farber, which does a fantastic job in the community.

And I know how much we talk about it at Dana Farber, trying to make sure that we have access to, or that people in the community have access to. The Institute, and they do a great job. Once people get in, the problem is getting in can have a lot of barriers. So when I think about health equity, first and foremost, I think about the barriers to access.

And what we need to do to be able to break down those barriers for everyone. And this is a great

Naji Gehchan: reminder for all of us as healthcare leaders to think about access, health equity, and how we can improve it. I’m eager to talk more about this, and I know we can’t in this forum, but I’d love to talk a little bit more about this with you.

Thank you. The fourth word is spread love in organizations.

Rob Perez: Well, first of all, I love what you guys are doing. And, um, ever since I kind of heard about you, I just thought, wow, this, what a great idea. Um, first and foremost, we need more focus on kindness, compassion, and love in the world. Um, you know, if I might editorialize a bit there.

So the fact that you’re, you’re talking to some of the industry’s most accomplished people about this topic, um, is really extraordinary. So thank you for doing what you do. Um, the other is it’s not surprising to me that the people that you’re talking to who are at the top of their game, um, are also people who have leaned into, um, spreading purpose within their environment.

They are purpose driven people. Um, who care about the world and it gets back to kind of what I was saying before about I think extraordinary people, um, are not just extraordinary in their day job. They’re extraordinary all the way around. And so, um, being able to have this forum and frankly, all forums to use it to, um, to make the world a kinder, um, better place.

Ultimately is going to mean better business as well. You know, the, the, at JPM, the, uh, the panel that was, uh, where Lifescience Cares was featured was really focused on industry reputation and, um, you know, how do you reboot this industry’s business? Unfortunately, terrible reputation. And, um, I know I don’t have all the answers there, but there’s two things that I do think I, I know.

One is the answer is not, you know, more ads about, uh, how great the industry is. Um, that’s just not going to work. Um, but what I think the answer is, the second point is to just show people the compassion, the commitment to human health. That, um, our industry is focused on through our actions, through our actions, um, that I think is where the answer lies.

And, um, you know, there’s I have a this friend who wrote a book called Good is the New Cool is actually written a couple of books after Aziz. Um, it’s called Good is the New Cool and after, uh, focuses on, um, companies and marketing that leans into doing good and how attractive that is to employees to shareholders and most importantly to customers.

Um, that this is, I think, what the industry needs to embrace the good that we do, um, because I think the more we share that with people, the more they’re going to realize, wow, this industry is, um, it’s full of extraordinary people and really about helping people, not about all the negative things that we get tagged with.

Naji Gehchan: Can’t agree more than what you said. It’s a, you know, for me, it’s every time taking it back to this human level we are. And as you’ve seen hundreds of people working in this industry, I’ve seen, I had the pleasure to interview now more than 130 leaders and what’s fascinating is this purpose we all have, right?

We all wake up in the morning with this service that we want to bring good. We want to help. People live better, and I think those stories will shine way more than any advertisement campaign. And it’s not, I’m a marketer too, so it’s not around not, not having impact, but it’s really about us making this industry at the end.

It’s the industry is the people and the passion of scientists, physicians, and all the employees working hard to make life better for the patients we serve. So I definitely agree with you. Thank you. Any final word of wisdom Rob for healthcare leaders around the world.

Rob Perez: Um, I don’t know. I guess my word of wisdom is really thank you and gratitude.

Um, I, uh, feel extremely fortunate to have, uh, been a part of this Industry and to have met so many amazing people, many of whom you featured on your podcast. Um, and there are folks who are out doing things that I couldn’t even imagine. So first and foremost to healthcare leaders, my point is, is to say thank you.

Um, keep it up. Um, there’s, there’s so much more to do. And, and I guess my call out because, you know, they’re focused on their day jobs of, of, you know, working on really hard problems. Is let’s come together and see what the benefit of collective impact can do on issues associated with our community. I think life science cares is the way that, um, that, that, you know, we put together and we think it’s only think it’s the best, but it’s not the only way to do it, um, regardless of how I hope everyone will consider, um, their part in helping the world to be a better place.

And the good news is you don’t have to do all the research yourself. You don’t have to find the right organizations. We’ve kind of done that for you. So whether you’re a small company, um, uh, that needs, that doesn’t have the resources and needs to kind of outsource its corporate social responsibility, we can help you with that.

Um, or a larger company that has a lot of resource, but needs to kind of connect with others within the industry so that we can make a collective and larger impact. Um, regardless of where you fit on that spectrum, I think we have a way to, uh, really harness the passion. The enthusiasm and compassion of the industry at life science care.

So I would really encourage people to get in touch with us. Our website is life science cares dot org, um, and, you know, or ping me on linked in and let me know that you’d like to get involved and I’ll get in touch with the right person. But we together we can have a huge impact on people. We’re doing it right now, and I think it can be bigger and better over time.

Well,

Naji Gehchan: thank you so much, Rob. I will, uh, I will definitely share all the contacts about the life science cares on on our on your episode and on our pages. But really, it’s it’s impressive what you’ve been doing. And I love the charge you’re keeping us with and asking us to really think about the collective impact that we can do together as a healthcare industry to, um, to improve and make health more equitable and also make sure that Poverty disappears.

I think that’s the ultimate goal that you’re trying to push with organizations. So thank you for for that.

Rob Perez: Amen. Thanks for having me, Naji. I appreciate it.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host, for a special episode in partnership with Jill Donahue for her new book “A Dose of Inspiration: 100 purpose stories from Pharma Leaders”. I am joined today by Julie Kim President of the U.S. Business Unit, U.S. Country Head and member of Takeda’s Executive Team. Julie joined Takeda in 2019 through the acquisition of Shire, where she held several diverse roles with increasing responsibility. Julie has 30 years of experience in health care, with leadership positions at global, regional, country and functional levels. Julie is known for strong, collaborative and inclusive leadership that enables Takeda to meet the needs of the people the company serves while driving innovations that will improve patients’ lives. Her global outlook, a result of having worked in many countries in Europe, Asia and Latin America, as well as having lived in the U.K., Switzerland and the U.S., have helped her create teams that are diverse in multiple dimensions to enable inclusive decision-making that keeps the patient at the center. Julie serves on several boards and was named one of Boston’s 50 Most Influential Asian American Pacific Islanders in 2023, The 2022 PharmaVoice 100 list and Fierce Pharma’s list of 2020’s Fiercest Women in Life Sciences.

Julie, It is such a pleasure to have you with me today!

Julie Kim: Well, thank you for inviting me. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Naji Gehchan: Can you first share with us your personal story? What’s in between the lines of your inspiring career and journey?

Julie Kim: Sure, I guess if I’m going to share that story, I do have to go all the way back to my childhood for a brief moment. And I say that because I was born in Korea, and I was born to, you know, parents who had a very progressive way of thinking. So although the culture of the country at the time was very much Um, a hierarchical patriarchal society, my mother had chosen to go to medical school and practice medicine after she graduated, which was not.

And when she had me as a girl, that had certain implications. So for women in general, the idea of having a career and having a self directed life was not the norm. It wasn’t accepted. And so my parents decided to move. To the U. S. At that point, so we relocated to the U. S. When I was very little, um, and I grew up in Ohio.

And at the time, Ohio is not a very diverse place to grow up. I was the only person that looked like me, um, at school, and you can imagine all of the challenges that that brings to a child growing up. So I shared that little bit of the very beginning of my life. Because it had a significant impact on how I showed up as an individual in the in the workplace later on in life that aside, I would say that the early part of my career was really focused on the what making sure that.

I could deliver the best results, the best answers, the best solutions. I started in consulting and so it was about making the client happy by having the best solutions. And I didn’t really give a lot of thought to how I did things. Um, and unfortunately my, my mother passed away during this time frame.

And. You know, when she did, um, and I’ve, I’ve shared this story in, in other, uh, situations and other, um, podcasts and whatnot, but her, her funeral was, uh, uh, a turning point for me because there were so many people, uh, at that funeral. And I remember in having the conversation. With my dad at the time, like, I was very bothered by all the people who had come to, to something that I felt was a very personal family, um, event.

Why were all these strangers here? And, and he explained to me that they all wanted to come and pay their respects to her because she had somehow touched. Their lives, uh, and it was important to them to come and pay their respects, you know, and I, I had that, you know, moment of, wow, if I were to be hit by a bus right now, maybe I would fill the first couple of queues, not, not the whole church, because I knew I wasn’t, uh, the way that I was operating, as I said, I wasn’t really focused on the, how I wasn’t focused on the people around me per se.

I was just focused on delivering the results. So that began a very long journey of, okay, how do I still deliver top quality results, but do it in a manner that. Brings people along with me. And so that’s not necessarily on my CV, but I would say that was a big part of the early part of my career in terms of My story.

And then I would say the other piece that I would share that again is a little bit reflected on the on the CV is that I didn’t necessarily take a straight path. I had a mentor early on who said to me that when you are given the options, you won’t always have an option. But when you’re given the option, try to take it.

The option that will challenge you more. That’s the harder one. It’ll stretch you. You will feel uncomfortable. You, you might feel like you’re going to fail, but you will learn so much more by doing so. Um, and don’t necessarily be so caught up in, in, you know, going for the next promotion, make sure that you are stretching yourself and you are learning.

And that’s what I’ve tried to do throughout my career. So when you look at my CV, sometimes you might look at. Uh, the role, um, one role to the next and go, huh, I wonder why she did that. I wonder why she did that. I, why, why didn’t she just go from this level to a higher level, to a, the next higher level within a particular function?

And, and that is a, a big part of why I didn’t, and having this broad experience across different geographies, different functions, uh, different roles. I think it’s part of what contributes. to me being able to operate at the level that I operate today. So those are just a couple of things that I would share that are not necessarily, as you said, obvious from the CV, but I think play a significant role in getting me to where I am today.

Thank

Naji Gehchan: you, Julie, for sharing those powerful stories and experiences. I want to go back to the first experience you talked about the how. So can you tell us how you are combining now this impact on people and delivering exceptional results?

Julie Kim: Yeah, so I would say that the first piece is really spending time up front with the team in terms of what the expectations are.

Are that’s the starting place, because if everyone is not on the same page, here’s where we’re trying to get to here are the expectations here, the parameters, the time frame, et cetera, then it’s very difficult for people to be self motivated and to to drive forward to achieve objectives. So that needs to be clear for the team, right?

We talk about purpose. You talk about objectives. You talk about expectations. You make sure everything is clear up front. Then you have to let them know that I’m here to help. I’m here to support. I can work with you if something is new and it’s not clear. But otherwise, I’m going to let you find your path.

I’ve got my experiences. And, and I might have an idea of how I would like things to get there, but I’m not going to make everyone conform to my way and my experience. Because I think you shut off so many opportunities for innovation and creativity and improvements, to be honest, when, when you do that and selfishly a bit of learning.

So that’s, that’s the second piece. Being able to step back and giving your team the space to create on their own to learn and to find their way. But as I said, at the same time, making sure that they feel supported. So if they do get stuck, if there is a roadblock, you are there, I am there. To help remove the roadblock or to help show them.

Okay. Well, here, let me help you. If you’re stuck and you, you, you don’t have a clear path forward. So you can’t leave them completely alone to, to, to struggle a little bit of struggle is okay. But you also have to be there to support so that you can help them be successful. So I would say those are a couple of the things that I do to allow them.

The work to happen in a way that, um, uh, leverages individual strengths, individual creativity, but also provides enough support so that they can, uh, progress in their own learning.

Naji Gehchan: I loved how you’re framing it. And really in the beginning, you said something about being focused on the what, and in the what it was always providing the best.

The best solution. Uh, and then the how, uh, later on. So a lot of times, and even for people more in the expertise path, I would say in our industry, right? The, the, what is really important, like the excellence and what we’re delivering is really important. Uh, and I see sometimes executives having a hard time just letting go, as you said, and accepting that, you know, it.

Might not be exactly how you would do it, but it’s okay, actually. It’s not that it’s wrong. It’s just different because you let someone else was also brilliant to it instead. So how did you manage to get to the stage where. Really, you let go and you trusted your team, what was it only because you didn’t have time to do it anymore, or did you really do this work?

And so the fruit of this diverse, you know, outcomes that might happen. How did you get there?

Julie Kim: It’s hard for me to say that there was one pivotal moment. That got me there. I can give you a few different examples of things that helped me, um, move to, to this approach. I would say one thing is, uh, you know, I’ve had the, the fortunate, um, opportunity of having really good managers in my past and.

They did this for me, right? So one way is you, you learn from working with really strong managers. Okay. I really like how they did that. Let me try. So that that’s one piece of it. The second, um, I was attending a leadership meeting.

Over a dozen years ago, um, and they brought in a speaker and his name is, uh, Benjamin Zander and he and his wife had written this book called the art of possibilities. And one of the things in there talks about. Giving people in a right. So you give people trust to begin with in the story in the book.

The story is he gives his class, um, an A at the beginning of the semester, and he tells them to write an essay in terms of what they’re going to do to earn that a through the rest of the semester. And then he tells all of them, okay, so now you have an A, so show me that you did, you know, do the work that you said in your essay and the A is yours to lose, basically, instead of you have to, to earn it.

And so that was a really. Um, I would say a powerful aha moment for me before that. I was definitely a person that said, okay, you nausea, you have to earn my trust. I need to see you do X, Y, and Z before I will trust you to do something. So I was like, okay, well, let me, you know, again, try the reverse. And I’ve had some managers show me trust.

And I know how it makes me feel, right? I, I wanted to do 150 percent uh, more for that individual because they gave me that trust versus someone who says, Okay, Julie, I’m just going to give you this piece to do. And then once you show me that you can do that piece, well, I’ll give you a slightly bigger responsibility.

So that was the second piece. And then the other component around that is. Um, and I said a little bit the desire to keep learning and the humility to know that even though you think you’re a smart person, there’s always going to be someone who’s smarter and there’s always going to be someone who has a good idea and those good ideas can come from anywhere.

So I would say it’s a combination of all of those things that that have brought me to the place of. Being able to let go being able to, um, you know, learn from the team and allow them to experiment and create and give them the support say, you know, look. You might make a mistake here or there. That’s okay.

That’s how we learn. Right? So all of that put together, I think, is the way that you create the environment that people feel safe to do what they need to do, uh, and experiment, learn and grow.

Naji Gehchan: Certainly. Um, you talked about also the beginning, uh, purpose. objective expectations and the importance of setting them.

Uh, so I’d love to know how you, specifically on the purpose, since we’re in an industry where we’re waking up every day to make life better for patients. Even in this industry, several times with my teams, with people I, I talk to, it’s sometimes hard to remember that With all the hundreds and tons of things we’re doing every day operationally, right?

Like, it’s easy to forget why we’re doing what we’re doing. So I’m interested in how do you make this purpose live on a daily basis for your broad organization?

Julie Kim: Yeah, I, you know, I agree with you in terms of our industry. It’s It’s relatively easier than some other industries to have that purpose that, that, that drive to you because we’re all focused on the patient and making a positive impact, um, for them.

So I think that is not any different, um, in my organization, uh, I would venture to, to guess in any other pharma, um, organization, but it is being able to bring it to the forefront. On a regular basis. So, you know, within our organization, we have something we call P. T. R. B. Patient trust reputation business.

And this is our decision making framework. Is it the right thing to do for patients? Does it build trust with society? Does it support a positive reputation for the company? And then, you know, Does it help build a sustainable business? And it’s always in that order. And so you’ll hear this vernacular in our discussion when we’re debating something.

Okay, but is this really? PTRB, are we forgetting the P or are we forgetting the T or et cetera, et cetera? So part of it is in the language that we use and we’re able to always bring it back to the patient. And the second thing is bringing some of those stories to life, especially when you get into a heated argument and you know, maybe you’re trying to trade off OpEx and and it’s really, you know, you’re deep in the numbers.

You have to have sometimes the the wherewithal To pause and say, okay, but look in the end, right? Remember who we’re doing this for. And is this actually going to help us achieve that goal for this patient group? Yes or no, right? So it’s in little ways. Um, and then it’s also in, in, in bigger ways, like, you know, bringing patients into speak at a town hall, um, you know, playing a patient video before a cross functional meeting kicks off.

A variety of different ways to make sure that we bring that purpose to the front.

Naji Gehchan: You know, one of my favorite questions and it’s reminded me while you were talking about it was, would a patient really care? I, I used to ask it a lot for my marketers and say, you know what, you’re debating opex, as you said, or even sometimes like colors or what can we have on a, you know, on a leaflet or whatever, like what a patient really care at the end of the day.

And this is how you always would bring it back to patients. I want to pivot now to, um, what something you’re passionate about. And I think you, uh, shared, uh, early on your story and, um, and being, um, in, in Ohio. You talk a lot about inclusive leadership and you’re passionate about inclusive leadership. So I’m interested to learn more.

How do you define this and how do you link it to business impact too? Yeah.

Julie Kim: I, I think a simple way that I think about inclusiveness is about Giving people a voice. So, again, having grown up in the environment that I did, I was often the outsider. I was often not given a voice. I was often made to feel less.

I was often made to feel that even if I was given a voice, it wasn’t heard or it was less. Of a voice. So again, that context, I think, helps to, um, create the appreciation for wanting to give everyone, uh, a voice that should be in the room. So this is not about, you know, um, having 100 person meetings so that everyone can can have their say, right?

But that’s that’s dysfunctional. But when you are looking at whether it’s a meeting or particular topic, Making sure that the stakeholders all of the relevant stakeholders do have a voice so that it’s not just the loudest person in the room gets to say what they want to say, and everyone then aligns to that or that the leader.

It’s making the space so that the different voices can be heard so that we can then have a robust debate and dialogue about the different views that are represented in those voices, and then coming to a decision. And there’s plenty of research on That will show you when you have those multiple voices to inform a decision, the decisions tend to be better.

And you then that’s where the performance piece comes in. That’s where those, you know, high standards come in and being able to drive that. That excellence. And so that over time has happened. So being able to demonstrate that you can deliver high results, excellent results comes from, for me, having these diverse voices being heard, being accounted for, and then making decisions based on.

I

Naji Gehchan: more than relate to this. So thank you for sharing it. I’m going to give you now one word and I’d love your reaction to it. And the first one is leadership.

Julie Kim: My reaction to leadership. I think leadership is something that is sorely needed in the world today. Let’s just say in a, in a broader context, uh, leadership, I think is something that is earned.

It is something that, um, everyone can do in terms of leading them self, but leadership at an enterprise level is something that is earned. It is not something that is ordained. You might be made CEO, or you might be made a leader of a particular team. But if you really want to be, um, to wear the leadership, uh, mantle, you need to earn that from the organization.

What about growth mindset? Growth mindset to me is a little bit about what we’ve talked about earlier. It’s about allowing, um, individuals to experiment, to try different things, to make mistakes, to learn from that and to keep growing. It’s to reframe and look at what is possible instead of saying why all the things can’t happen.

Belonging.

Belonging to me is, uh, you know, if we go back to what we were talking about a little bit before, that you have a voice and that you are heard and that you are welcomed because of it.

Naji Gehchan: The last word is spread love and organizations.

Julie Kim: Me, this is about caring and I think caring is something that I remember earlier in my career. I was told that you shouldn’t care. That is a sign of weakness. It’s not about caring. It’s about just delivering the results. And I would say that today, that is the worst advice that can be given.

And absolutely, you should care. Care about yourself. Care about your team, care about your stakeholders, your, your organization, and that caring to me is about is how you spread the love.

Naji Gehchan: I love this, Judy. And obviously, if you care, you’re going to hold yourself and your people to an even higher standard and deliver even more.

So I. Totally relate to that. And that’s the idea of all this, this podcast, bringing incredible leaders like you who are doing it and who care for their people and the patients we serve to deliver exceptional results. Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?

Julie Kim: Healthcare is a very difficult, complex area. It is not something that, uh, We can be successful as a single organization or a single set of stakeholders within the whole healthcare ecosystem. I think everyone would agree that the healthcare ecosystem is stressed at the moment and we all need to work together in order to make it a more sustainable environment.

And so I would just ask that we continue to reach across. And work with each other, um, from, let’s say, a multi stakeholder approach to try to make sure that we can build thriving, sustainable healthcare ecosystems globally.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, Julie, for being with me today and this incredible chat.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host, for a special episode in partnership with Jill Donahue for her new book “A Dose of Inspiration: 100 purpose stories from Pharma Leaders”. I am joined today by Kevin Williams, Chief Medical Affairs Officer, Global Medical Excellence & Innovation, at Pfizer. Kevin joined Pfizer in January 2004 as a Director, Regional Medical & Research Specialists working in the HIV disease area. After moving into a Team Leader position in July 2005, he has served in various leadership roles during his career in the company. Kevin is also Co-Chair, Board of Directors for SAGE, the country’s leading national non-profit organization focused on advocacy and services for LGBT+ elders. Kevin received his medical degree from the UCLA School of Medicine, a Masters in Public Health and a Juris Doctorate from Harvard Law School. Kevin, It is such a pleasure to have you with me today!

Kevin Williams: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Naji Gehchan: Can you first share with us your personal story? From being on the forefront of HIV/ AIDS patient care to now leading a large organization in pharma… What is your purpose story?

Kevin Williams: I grew up in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

My father was a physician. In fact, he was the third African American physician in Baton Rouge. And I grew up. seeing him in practice, watching him, uh, take care of patients. I often went on hospital rounds with him or, uh, on house calls back in the days when physicians still made house calls and, uh, I got to see up close and personal, the practice of medicine and his work inspired me.

Um, when I became a teenager during the summers, I actually. I worked at his office for two weeks when his receptionist would go on vacation and, uh, I got to help him, uh, take care of patients. I managed the front desk, checked patients in, took them back to the exam rooms. And, uh, I was inspired by, by what he did and knew that I wanted to go into, uh, into medicine.

And so after college, I. Apply for medical school ended up moving out to Los Angeles and going to medical school at at UCLA. And I will say that part of that decision, um, was influenced by personal factors within within my life. And I think it’s an important. Point to note that I am a member of the LGBTQ plus community because that that did impact the decisions that I made in terms of where I went to medical school.

And, you know, at the time I went to college, uh, in New Orleans at Tulane University, 60 miles away from Baton Rouge, thinking that, uh, I would be able to come out, um, and Live my my life is in my as my authentic self and I found that I still remained in the closet because I was so close to Home, so I’m when I just made a decision to go to medical school I decided I need to get far away so that I can be my authentic self as well as study medicine and and so I ended up in Los Angeles and after a medical school did a residency in internal medicine and wasn’t sure at that point what my next step was.

I had a pull between going into private practice and seeing patients, but also being interested in academic medicine. So, I decided to do a fellowship in health services research. and got a master’s in public health at that time back at UCLA in Public Health and was doing research looking at access to care for HIV positive individuals and the impact of access on outcomes.

It was, you know, fascinating research. It was really important and needed at the time, but I found that during the two years of my fellowship that my clinical skills were deteriorating and, you know, I actually did end up taking an academic position, um, at UCLA. But after six months, I ended up leaving because I really felt that I needed to take care of my community.

And that’s how I got involved in, in HIV and AIDS care. Um, when I left, uh, academic medicine, it was really the height of the AIDS epidemic. So I, I finished my fellowship in, uh, 91 and began practice in the beginning of 1992. At the time we went into practice, there were very few. medications available for, uh, people living with HIV and AIDS.

At the time, it was really AZT, DDI, and DDC were the only medicines available. Um, but I knew that I had to be down in the trenches, taking care of my community. Um, and that was really what drove me into leaving academic medicine and going into private practice. And I ended up staying in private practice for eight years.

Doing HIV medicine and it was an amazing time. It was incredibly rewarding. Um, I felt that I was able to take care of members of my community to be there in a way for them that I thought was important, knowing that many of them were not going to survive this illness, but being able to be compassionate, caring, empathetic.

force in their lives. Uh, as these 2030 40 year old people were dealing with death and dying at a time when they should be really experiencing the best parts of their lives, having aspirations and doing new things and they’re dealing with issues of death and dying. So it was a very very rewarding time to, um, work with those individuals to have very intense relationships with patients.

And, you know, that things changed and In HIV, we got combination therapy, different classes of medications, and patients were doing better. And my practice was beginning to evolve. It was becoming less HIV, more general internal medicine, and I thought maybe There was an opportunity now for me to do something different because I thought I had skills and capabilities that were not being fully utilized in the practice of medicine, leadership skills, strategic thinking, uh, that I wanted to put into effect.

And initially I had the idea of getting involved in health care policy and I decided that I would go to law school with the idea being that. Having a background in medical practice and HIV, uh, mass and public health, uh, and a law degree would paint an interesting package for somebody who wanted to get involved in health care policy.

Um, so I ended up moving from Los Angeles to Boston, uh, went to Harvard for law school. And after I graduated. Decided that that actually was not the career path that I wanted to take and was really at a crossroads because now I had to figure out what that next move was. And I actually wasn’t sure what it was.

I ended up moving down to New York and started looking for opportunities. And. Um, honestly, was not looking to join the pharmaceutical industry when this opportunity, uh, arose at Pfizer. Um, uh, you know, for for those of us who went to medical school or pharmacy school, uh, it will sound familiar when I say that they drill into your head that the pharmaceutical industry is the dark side, the evil empire.

And So honestly, I had that perception of industry when this opportunity presented itself to me at Pfizer, and I was not really looking to join industry, but this opportunity was, uh, too good for me to pass up. It was an opportunity to get back into working in HIV and AIDS, which is an area that I was passionate about as a field based medical individual, MSL.

And so I decided to take a chance. And I joined Pfizer, uh, in January of 2004 and never looked back. I mean, 20 years later, still at the company, um, had an amazing career during my, my time. I’m at Pfizer, you shared some of. uh, the opportunities that I’ve had and my ability to move into different roles, different leadership roles to have different experiences in different therapeutic areas and develop both personally and professionally.

So it has really just been an amazing journey.

Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, Kevin, for sharing this powerful and inspiring journey of yours. I certainly relate to Several parts of it. I want to start with with one specifically, uh, you said you were you worked in the trenches, right? You help people the moment they needed it most.

Um, and obviously, I’ve had this as I shared briefly with you before, uh, in moment and tension and war. And then now you’re doing it in a different way and impacting people in different ways. So I’m sure you two talk with a lot of scientists, physicians who are thinking about this transition. What is your number one advice of how they should think about their impact moving from really immediate care for patient to the pharma industry?

Kevin Williams: The impact that you have is, is different in, uh, it’s at a different level, um, in private practice. The impact that I had was very immediate and it was very individual. Um, as I saw patients. You know, evolve, improve or perhaps not improve. But there was that kind of one on one immediate interaction relationship and immediate feedback.

Uh, I think in the pharmaceutical industry, it’s a little bit different. Uh, the impact is not as immediate, but it can happen on such a larger scale because you’re bringing medicines Uh, to patients that, you know, have these medical needs and you that are making a difference in their lives, and you’re doing it on a much larger scale than than you’re able to do when you’re in private practice.

So it’s a different type of impact, but it’s, uh, equally as powerful. And I think, you know, they, uh. Um, I’ve often been asked which is which is better. And I would say that they’re different there. You know, it’s not that one is better than the other. The impacts are so different. And the experience of what you’re able to deliver is so different when you’re one on one versus when you are working in a large company.

Um, and You know, there are other aspects of working in a large company that I think, um, uh, are also, uh, critical, at least for me, they were, uh, because it’s not just the impact that I have on patients. But one of the things that, you know, that I, that I talked about in terms of skills and capabilities that I felt that I had that were not being fully utilized in medical practice was that I love.

to teach, and I love to mentor people. And I didn’t really have that opportunity as much in medical practice, uh, as I did when I moved into the pharmaceutical industry, the opportunity to lead large teams and groups and organizations to help colleagues develop and advance in their career paths. To help watch them grow in their careers is very rewarding.

And so in addition to the impact that I could have on patients, there’s also the impact that I could have on my colleagues, uh, and which. You know, just add so much more to the experience.

Naji Gehchan: So talking about this specifically, the leadership impact and your leadership impacts you’re having on your teams, you’re a purpose driven leader, I believe.

I’m intrigued how you drive this purpose and making sure that your team on a daily basis, as we all can be so taken into our operational work and forgetting this larger picture of why we do what we do. I’m interested to know how you drive this with your teams at a large scale

Kevin Williams: now. We always keep the patient front and center of everything that we do.

We often talk about The patient, uh, talk about patient care, talk about the importance of the work that we do to bring medicines, uh, to address unmet medical needs. Uh, so ensuring that you’re always keeping the patient front and center and all that you do, uh, always talking about the importance of that is really critical, I think, to maintaining your purpose and to keeping it as your North Star.

You said something in

Naji Gehchan: the beginning. I would love to go back to you talked about authentic self. And those days, unfortunately, we’re seeing more acts of hate. If I don’t think we should call them non love, but really acts of hate towards different communities and a lot of tensions instead of care and love as we both believe in leadership.

Um, and it’s. We had this discussion yesterday, even with my partner and we’re saying, yeah, well, do people keep these things at check at the door before they come to work? How should we deal with it as leaders? So I’m interested to understand from your lens, how, how are you doing this? How are you ensuring your people come and can be at their best and can really be who they are?

Kevin Williams: I think the best way to do that is to role model the behavior. Um, if you bring your authentic self, um, uh, show your vulnerability, be exposed, uh, it encourages others to do so. If you create an environment where people feel comfortable being themselves, then they will excel and do their best work. Uh, and so the way that I do that is by Being my authentic self.

I’m, I’m very open about, uh, being a, a gay man. Uh, I, I think it’s important, uh, uh, to model that behavior and that openness so that others, uh, who May feel less secure or less comfortable being open about whatever it is that, you know, that, that, that they’re not letting others see, you will feel that they’re in a safe space where they can be more open because I think the more you’re able to do that, the more you’re going to enjoy what you’re doing, the, the, and the more you enjoy what you’re doing, the better you’ll be at it.

Naji Gehchan: I’m going to move now and give you a word. And I’d love a reaction from you. So the first, the first word is leadership.

Kevin Williams: Leadership is about, well, I’ll tell you an interesting, this is my, this is how I think about leadership. Um, I was watching the, uh, NFL, the National Football League. Playoffs. This is probably 10 years ago. And before the game started, you know, they’re doing an interview and they’re interviewing, uh, Shannon Sharp, his former tight end for the Denver Broncos.

And they asked him. What do you look for in a coach? And I thought his response was so spot on that I used it all the time when I talked to people about leadership, because what he said is, you know what I need from a coach is someone to put me in a position to succeed. And then let me do my job. And so when I think about leadership, you know, my job as a leader is to make sure that my people have the tools, the resources, the feedback, the coaching, the support that they need to be successful, and then trust that they know what they’re doing and empower them to do their jobs.

What about patient centricity?

Patient centricity is the north star of all that we do. It is the hallmark of being in a medical role in the pharmaceutical industry. Uh, it is the hallmark of being in any role in the pharmaceutical industry. Uh, It is critical to all that we do that the patient is the reason that we do what we do, and patient centricity means not just thinking about the patient, but including the voice of the patient.

One of the things that you mentioned is that I’m co chair of the board of SAGE, which is a non profit. Uh, LGBTQ plus elder organization focused on advocacy and services for LGBTQ plus elders. And one of the things that we say, uh, is nothing about us without us. And, you know, it’s a, it’s a phrase that, that many will use, uh, but I think it’s so important that when we think about patient centricity, that we include the voice of the patient in all that we do and understand that it.

You know, it is not our responsibility to speak for the patient. It’s our responsibility to listen to the patient and make sure that The medicines that we’re developing are meeting their needs, not the needs that we think they have.

Naji Gehchan: That’s so powerful. Nothing about us without us. And I love how you said our responsibility is to listen to patients and bring their voice to what we’re doing daily. The third one is health equity.

Kevin Williams: Health equity. Is understanding that

you can develop the best medicine in the world to treat a specific condition, but if you are not taking into account the other factors that influence whether or not that medicine makes it to a patient, then, uh, you know, you’ve, you’ve failed at your responsibility. People come to the table with different levels of understanding.

Access education background, socioeconomic conditions, all of those things influence their ability to access the health care system to access medicines to understand the, uh, the dynamics, the importance of, uh, taking medicines, uh, all of these things contribute to the health of. The individual patient and unless you are able to understand all of the different influences and address them, you know, you may very well be feeling that patient in front of you because, you know, either they don’t understand, uh, what you’re asking them to do, um, they don’t have access.

They don’t know the questions to ask. Um, and I’ll give you An example of, um, a situation I had with a, uh, with a, with a patient. Um, and it was a It was a 70 year old black male that came in to see me and he had, um, he was, he was HIV positive and I treated him, uh, with medication at the time, Virocept, a protease inhibitor.

And the way that you take Virocept is it’s three pills, um, and it’s taken three times a day. So a total of nine pills a day. I told him, uh, And when I prescribed the medications, three pills, three times a day, I found when he came back in three months later, he had been taking one pill three times a day.

And so I asked him about that. He goes, well, you said three pills, three times a day, which he interpreted as one pill, three different times and three different times. Uh, and it occurred to me that. You know, just because I understand something doesn’t mean that the patient understands and it’s important to check for that understanding health literacy, big part of health equity, right?

So that’s and that’s just one example. And, you know, the consequence of that misunderstanding could be fatal because he could develop resistance. To the virus can develop resistance to that produce inhibitor because, uh, he was having an adequate blood levels of that medicine. So, uh, it’s important, uh, to be sure that you are clear.

Uh, you understand all the components of what’s going on in the patient’s life to ensure that you’re able to deliver the best care possible. What a great

Naji Gehchan: example. I’m sure if I want to just double click on that. How are you translating this today as an executive in the pharma world? Like how I also constantly thinking about this, obviously.

Uh, and I’d love your thoughts, how you translate health equity and our responsibility at healthcare leaders. Uh, in the pharma industry to ensure that we’re making real moves to improve that.

Kevin Williams: I mean, I think it’s important that, um, that that be part of what we do as pharmaceutical leaders, that it’s not just about bringing medicines to market that address medical needs, but that we’re also funding initiatives and efforts that address some of the The issues around health equity, whether that be around access or whether it be around health literacy, work that you do with plain language summaries to make sure that patients have access to information and in a way, uh, that they can understand it and digest it.

So we can’t just be about bringing the medicine to market. We have to think about all those other influences on. getting access to that medicine and where we feel we can make an impact and make a difference. We also need to, to be involved and, you know, to resource those areas.

The last

Naji Gehchan: word is spread love and

Kevin Williams: organizations.

I think it is, um, one of the things that, uh, I have always tried to do in, uh, in standing up a team or a group is to create an environment where people feel nurtured and cared for. Um, and, you know, that means creating an open, transparent. Environment where people can come to you. I mean, again, I talked about being their authentic selves and so modeling that behavior I think is important.

I think it’s also, uh, listening more than you speak. Um, it is asking people, you know, how they feel, ensuring that they feel cared for and listened to, um, and creating an environment where they feel they can do their best work.

Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around

Kevin Williams: the world?

I think you have to, um, well, I actually, there are a couple of things I would say. One, uh, uh, I think you have to be willing to step outside your comfort zone. Because only when you step outside your comfort zone, do you grow and learn. If you just keep doing what you already know how to do, you’ll never grow.

Uh, so it’s important to step outside your comfort zone, no matter how scary it is. I feel with every opportunity that I’ve taken on that was new and challenging. Uh, it was, it was terrifying, but I was a better leader. Because I took on that opportunity and maybe the corollary to that is I would say, so it’s important to believe in yourself and to believe in your ability and do your best.

I will tell you one final story that I love that my father told me. When, um, I was growing up, uh, and it’s a, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of about believing in yourself. Uh, when, when my father was in medical school, he went to Howard, uh, uh, medical school, he said he had a classmate and the classmate, uh, said to him one time, he said, uh, Al, his name was Alvin, he said, Al, Um, you know, medical school is so hard and I don’t know how I’m going to make it.

Um, and when I start to feel that way, I go down the hall where they have all the pictures of the previous graduating classes. And I look at all of those photos and I say to myself, you know, I’m going to be fine. I know I’m going to make it through medical school because there’s got to be somebody up there who’s dumber than me.

So you got to believe in yourself.

Naji Gehchan: I love it. Well, thank you so much, Kevin, for being with me today and this great chat.

Kevin Williams: Thank you so much. I appreciate

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs

Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.

I am Naji, your host, joined today by I’m Naji your host and I’m thrilled to be with Jill Donahue a global thought leader in pharma. Jill has won multiple awards for her work, author of 2 soon 3 books, delivering talks at global conferences, publishing in industry journals and serving pharma teams. Jill also co-founded The Aurora Project; a global volunteer group of thought leaders trying to illuminate commercial pharma’s path to patient centricity. This is my second episode with Jill, for a special “dose of inspiration”.

Jill, it is always good to see you and such a pleasure to have you again with me on the show!

Naji Gehchan: Before going right into your new book, Dose of Inspiration, can you tell us a little bit more about your story?

Jill Donahue: Sure. Well, and I’m sorry, because you know my story, but let me, let me share with others, I guess, and, and that really goes to why I’m, I’m writing this book, I suppose. So, my story goes back to, um, a long career in the industry and, um, very, very interested in the behavioral science aspect of how we better engage people.

And I think that really the big fuel for that was, uh, you know, watching my father die as a result of prescribing her and, uh, being in pharma. Reflecting on, you know, what if, what if dad’s doctors at MSL, KM, rep, whomever, had have been better able to access and engage my dad’s doctor, uh, to know the right product at the right time for the right patient, you know, things could have been so different.

So, I left Big Pharma two years after dad died and, um. I started studying this full time and was learning stuff that I was really excited about and wanted to share. So I wrote a couple of books about it and started speaking from global stages and, and, and, and, and talking with leaders around the world.

And that’s where I met you actually a few years ago in Barcelona, right? That was, um, how we met around that. So, um, That led to teaching, teaching what I was learning and one of the big things I was learning was when we are purpose driven, we do better, you know, that mindset shift changes everything. So we created this, this journey and that brings me to the book, this latest book, but we created this journey called The Power of Purpose, where we, um, take people through an exercise to help them connect with their why, you know.

Where’s the meaning for you in work? Why do you work here in pharma? And I’d run these programs with people and, um, groups would share their stories. Right. And it was so powerful. And then that I found myself going into the kitchen after these group shares and, and, you know, often through tears, sharing with my family, Oh my gosh, you won’t believe this story.

It was so amazing. I’m so inspired by these people. And then it occurred to me, this is silly. right? Like, why would I just share it with my family? What if I could share these stories, these amazing stories of how people in pharma find their purpose and meaning in their work? What if I could share them more broadly?

And so that’s when the idea came up for Well, let’s put them in a book so and so that’s what we’re calling it a dose of inspiration a hundred purpose stories of farmer leaders. And, um, so you got more than you asked for there. You asked me what my, you know, my background and I gave you that and then more.

Sorry about that.

Naji Gehchan: No, but I love it. And this is that was my first question. Now that you heard more than 100 purpose stories. Why are you putting them in a book? But you answered this. So let me go to what are you hoping this book will bring? to those who would read it. Well, what difference Are you hoping this book will make?

Jill Donahue: Yeah. Well, our experience is when people connect with their purpose, and interestingly, you know, studies show there’s just a McKinsey report that said about 15 percent of us, 1. 5 percent of us, are connected to our purpose at work. And that’s just such a shame, because there’s also huge evidence that shows the people who are connected to their purpose, those are your best People, they’re the ones who go home happiest, the ones that have the highest results, they perform better, they’re healthier, they live longer.

There’s incredible evidence, right? So when people connect to their purpose. They do better, they go home happier, they ultimately create better patient outcomes, right? So if we can, and I know, you know, I love the groups that I work with, I love having this impact on people, but there’s so many pharma people in the world that I’m never going to touch.

So if this book You know, back to your question, what do we hope this book will do? Our hope is that it will be literally a dose of inspiration to get people to think about, Hmm, why am I here? Well, maybe I should think about connecting to my purpose too, because I know from my experience with these programs and from the incredible literature, the evidence out there, that when people do connect with their purpose in pharma, we change more lives.

Not only the lives of the people in the Indi in the organization, but the HCPs that they touch, the, you know, the stakeholders out there and ultimately the patients. So that’s my hope that it’ll inspire people to think about it.

Naji Gehchan: So as you know me pretty well, I’m definitely connected to my purpose and this is why I wake up every morning coming to pharma trying to help patients live better.

One of the first feedback when you start working on your purpose, it’s not, it’s not easy. Some people feel it’s too broad. Is it even true that if I connect to it, uh, something will happen? So how, what would you tell your audience, right? Like it’s, we’re doing kind of the similar work, inspiring others to podcast on the stories.

But I’m intrigued, someone who wants to connect to their purpose, what would be your biggest advice to them on how to do it?

Jill Donahue: Yeah, it’s so interesting, Najee, because The way I see it is we’re on this hamster wheel, right? We’re going, going, going, round and round and round. And we don’t often take the time to step off and look back to where we’ve been, right?

So that we can better see where we’re going. Another way of looking at it is taking a helicopter view of your life. You’re so busy in life. You’re in this forest and you can’t see. The forest through the trees or what is it? The trees to the forest, forest to the trees. Anyway, you can’t see where that path in front of you, but when you step out of it and allow yourself to dig in.

And the funny thing is when, whenever we talk about purpose, I know if I could see the bubble over people’s heads, I know they’re immediately thinking of family, right? And I don’t want to deny that, of course, for all of us, when you, you know, why do you live? Well, for my family, right? Yes. My kids, my mother, my, whoever it is, right?

Whatever family is to you and you can go further. So I want people, I want to say to them, you know, when you think about purpose, you can think about it in three ways. There’s one, your personal purpose. So for many of us, that’s family. Then there’s your organizational purpose that you work for. And we’re so blessed.

In pharma right in health care that any organization that we work for ultimately is doing good in the world, right? Saving improving lives. That’s a beautiful. Organizational purpose, and then there’s a third purpose, which is your role purpose. So Daniel Pink, who I just love and admire, and I’ve had the privilege of interviewing him a couple times, he describes it as the organizational purpose is your big P, capital P, right?

And he said, in pharma, you’ve got that in healthcare, you guys got that right, save and improve lives. But that little P, that’s your role purpose, how you feel connected to that organizational purpose that he says is missing. And when you can connect those. That’s when the sparks fly. So my advice to people is look beyond.

Yes, of course, your main purpose in life is to serve your family. And if you really want to live your best life, find meaning in your role as well. Connect your role purpose to your organizational purpose. And I think everyone out there can do this, no matter what your role in the world is, especially in pharma.

Like our organizational purpose is so noble. And when you connect the dots between what you do and how that ultimately impacts helping people, purpose always comes from helping people, basically. So, think about it. How does your role help people, help people, help people, help patients, potentially?

Naji Gehchan: Yeah, I, I certainly fully agree, you know, and as you’re saying in pharma, we have this noble purpose with a huge responsibility, right?

Of, of making life better for patients. And every single person working is making it happen. It’s sometimes tough, you know, when you’re, as you said, into your daily. work into the weeds of what you’re doing operationally to just think about it, but each one of us is making it closer to patients somehow, either faster or more broad, but every single person in the healthcare system is working towards this.

Jill Donahue: Yeah. Otherwise you wouldn’t have a job, right? You’re there for a reason. And it’s interesting because so many people will say, Oh yeah, but not me. They’ll have their arms crossed and say, you know, I don’t touch the patient. I was like, well, very few of us touched the patient, right? And your role is still important.

And I tell the story about, um, Johnny Johnson. Have I told you this story, the Johnny Johnson story? He’s a, um, He’s a, uh, a bus driver, like a shuttle bus driver. And I met him on the shuttle bus from our rental car at the airport to the terminal. And in the, in that moment, you know, that five minute bus ride, he managed to get all of us smiling and feeling good with his energy and his announcement over the loudspeaker about how proud he was to serve such an amazing group of people, because we were the ones who not just planned a trip, but we made it happen.

And anyway, I approached him after and said, Johnny, I just. I love your attitude, like where, where does that come from for you? And he said, well, I had a choice, you know, I had my master’s home and I came here and I drive the shuttle bus to, to make a living and I had a choice to make, was I going to be just driving a circle or, or trying to help people make a difference?

So I decided my job was to make people smile. And I said, wow, so you go home with this gorgeous smile on your face. We all have smiles. Plus I said, I bet you make more money than the other guys. And he said, yeah, I make, uh. About a hundred bucks a day, and I said, well, that’s fabulous. So what do the other guys make?

And he said, 40. And then he added, you know, one day on my birthday, I made 500. And I said, oh my gosh, amazing. And then he said something and I was like, okay, that’s the mic drop moment. That is exactly what I teach in the program. He said, he put his hand on his heart and he said, it’s got to come from here.

It’s got to be authentic. I said, ah, that’s it right there, right? You need to go inside yourself and discover what it is about helping people that makes your heart sing, right? And, and I also advise the people I teach, you know, if you really don’t care about people and patients, I’m not sure healthcare is the place you should be, because that’s really what it’s all about, helping people.

So, yeah, dig deep, go in there to peel back the layers of the onion. I also say back to, you know, what’s my advice for people? Peel back the layers and find out, you know, where does that desire to help people come from? And we’ve discovered some things through the, through our experience with helping hundreds and hundreds of pharma professionals, um, about where the origin of that might be.

And we talk about that in the book. Um, you know, for a lot of people, it, it comes from values that they were taught. You know, I find your story fascinating, right, from, from your upbringing. And if people haven’t heard that episode, they should really listen to your story, right? I don’t know if you want to give a little Thanks, Jill, for the mention.

Where do you think your value, yeah, where do, where do you think your connection to that meaning came from? Like, if you were to summarize that, where do you think?

Naji Gehchan: Yeah, certainly. As you said, and probably some of the listeners heard it before, it certainly came very early on, right? Seeing, um, being a kid who was born during the war, seeing how we can help people in need.

Uh, I certainly very early on wanted to make sure that I can help people, uh, what they are most of their need. And this is why I ended up in, you know, becoming a physician and working in humanitarian work. Uh, and as you said, you said something, uh, very true. Several times you hear people saying, yeah, we’re not touching the patient.

So I can tell you I’ve, I’ve I’ve been fortunate enough to be able to help people in ER or in, uh, during wartime and bombing zones, et cetera. I certainly touch patients. So you see the immediate impact that you can have, but being now in the pharma biotech industry, it’s just, it’s just different. I’m not touching them physically and helping them one at a time, but I’m so proud after now serving for more than 15 years in this industry.

Being able to say, I managed to launch drugs that help millions of lives that touch globally, right? So I think this is where sometimes we get into, okay, I’m not touching immediately, but actually the impact is, is massive and broader. Sometimes that’s what you can do at a hospital base or at a scene, uh, scene place.

Jill Donahue: Exactly. And the more people can get in touch with that, the better they do. And that takes effort. You know, the other thing I say to people back to that advice is it’s a choice. Being purpose driven is a choice. It doesn’t just happen. It’s something that you need to think on. And that’s another thing that we do in this program is how do you create that culture, right?

What are the things you need to start, stop, and continue to do? Number one is connect with your story. Like, why is helping people important to you? Like you, you can take it right back to that first moment as a child that you watched that Red Cross volunteer helping people. And you’re like, I want to be that person.

Right. And that drove you and still drives you. And what is it for other people? And you know, other people like, wow, I didn’t, I wasn’t born in a war zone, but you know, what is it for me? But you know, I was just talking to a person this morning and she talks about her, her mother was such a loving teacher and taught her the value of helping people.

And, uh, you know, or my grandmother invited everyone in around the dining room table. I saw the value of helping people there. Like, where does it come from for you? And then once you make that connection, then what are you going to do about it? You know, how does that change? What, how you, you know, think what you say and what you do, it changes everything.

Naji Gehchan: Yeah. And how you will take it and make sure that your team every single day. is remembering the purpose and what we are serving and who we are serving daily. You know, the other challenge I’d love to get your thoughts on is, uh, purpose, values, culture. You talked about pieces where several times you hear some, some leaders, execs think, okay, the, all this is great, but at the end of the day, I need to deliver results.

So how do you think about this and how you combine both?

Jill Donahue: Yeah, I love that question. It’s so interesting because in our industry, we are so evidence based right with the life sciences. It’s all about evidence. Well, I encourage leaders to please look at the evidence in the behavioral sciences because it is abundant and rich.

The studies consistent that when we focus on our purpose. Good things follow for everyone. It is unequivocally the best thing that’s good for health care. It’s good for the employee. It’s good for the HCPs. It’s good for the company, which is the question you asked, and it’s good for patients. So the evidence on it being, um, contributing better outcomes is, you can’t deny it.

It is strong evidence. Interestingly, in the book, because I get this question so much like, Oh, yeah, that’s all good. Nice feel good thing. But I need to deliver numbers to global. I’m like, Oh, man, if only you knew, this is the way to do it, right? This is your biggest mistake that you’re not looking at the behavioral sciences about how, how to inspire people to do their best work, how to empower people to do their best work.

You know, there’s so many studies that say purpose is far less expensive and far more impactful than any incentive. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of the incentive program you’ve ever put in place, so just look at the literature and so in the book, I provide at the front of the book, a lot of that evidence, because I know.

You know, once people get it, the purpose is important, then they have to convince people that this isn’t just a feel good thing. This is actually, makes really good business sense. So I provide a lot of those references and studies to help people have that very discussion that you’re just introducing there.

But just, you know, bottom line, you’re evidence based people. Look at the evidence. It’s there. It’s abundant, rich. It will, it will change your mind on it. So we’re eager

Naji Gehchan: to, uh, to read the book, read all those stories and, and see those advices. Do you have one big learning after interviewing those 100 pharma execs?

Uh, what connects them to the purpose? Any common thread you felt in this book that you want to highlight?

Jill Donahue: Yeah, and, and this book is just a hundred of the many, many, many hundreds of, uh, pharma people around the world that I’ve, uh, worked with on, on purpose. And I do have a few key learnings and I share those in the book as well.

And I think, you know, the number one thing is, oh my gosh, Najee, people in our industry are so awesome. I just. Love working in this industry. I’m inspired every day by the people who work in our industry and how focused they are on making a difference and helping people and bringing their brilliant minds, whatever their expertise is to this big picture of healthcare to try to make it better.

And, um, and that inspires me, right? Just the, the. Quality of the people that we work with. That’s that’s one of my big takeaways. And as far as the takeaway on on where their purpose comes from, which you talked about earlier, um, there’s some different categories that I think for some people, it’s a first hand health care experience for themselves or a loved one.

But then there’s lots of people that that isn’t the case. And then they’re like, Oh, geez, I don’t have anyone who I’m like, No, that’s good. That’s okay. Right. Um, so for other people, it could be, um, we’ve seen for some people, it’s a real commitment to equity because of some equality that they had in their life and they want to help with that in healthcare.

Uh, for others, it’s, you know, these personal values and belief beliefs about helping others in healthcare and the importance of, of, um, service. And for some people, it’s like wanting to pay it forward, giving back, um, inspiration from parents and role models is another one. Um. Intellectual scientific curiosity is the beginning for some people, right?

So there’s many different triggers and everyone’s story may have a combination of those things too. It’s not necessarily just one thing. And also stories evolve over time, interestingly. Yeah, in the book I think I have, um, my six big takeaways from all the interviewing I’ve done, um, so those will be summarized too, uh, in there.

Naji Gehchan: Love it, Jill. And as you said, every everyone has a story, right? And everyone has a great story that inspire others. So I really love what you what you’ve done in the book. It’s why you talk about 100 as you know, we’ve been 100 and 20, uh, interviews also and podcasts and episodes with great leaders. And it’s certainly inspiring every, every person has an incredible story.

And I feel fortunate to be in this industry and hearing those stories every single time. I want to give you now a word and I love your reaction to it. The first one is leadership.

Jill Donahue: Love. Um, Yeah, you know, you and I both know that people are uncomfortable with that word in business, but um, whether it’s love or purpose, so perhaps I could have used the word purpose when I think of leadership, because I think it’s driven by, and purpose and love to me are connected as well, but it’s driven by that authentic caring for people, leadership, you have to care for people, and that’s what makes people follow you, with title or without, but that’s leadership.

You know, when people, um, admire you and trust you and believe you care for them, and perhaps the patients you’re serving together, that’s when you have leadership. That’s when people engage with you. That, to me, is the most important thing. For people to trust you, admire you, and believe you care for them, and the patients you’re serving together, that’s leadership.

In our industry, especially. What about story story? Um, so important. Interesting because, you know, people wear their business suit, right? We put on this suit and we present ourselves or we present the science. And we think that that’s going to engage people. It does not. And we work with so many scientists who are so driven that way, right?

And they think that the story, there’s no room for that with the business suit. And I encourage people to, to open that up. That the story is powerful beyond measure. That your story, the patient’s story, you know, I, I teach um, Scientists, MSLs and physicians, how to be more engaging presenters and I joke and say, you know, the first 30 seconds of your presentation will make or break the engagement with your audience and it better not be your disclosure slide, which, of course, they’re like, Oh, shoot.

Uh, so, you know, start with your story. Why are you here? Open up with. Before I get started, I think it’s important for me to share with you why I’m here and what my intentions are and give your four sentence version of your story. It will change the way people respond to you. Story is important. Long answer to your one word.

That’s a

Naji Gehchan: great, it’s great. The first one is a dose of inspiration.

Jill Donahue: The next word you want is a dose of inspiration. A reaction to it. My reaction, a dose of inspiration. I think that’s You know, I think of ripple effect, right? Um, if that dose of inspiration starts something, I love to think of the ripple effect that, that goes on from there.

So if I can just do that little drop, I think of it too, like, um, dose of inspiration, vitamin P, you know, we all take our vitamins every day, and I say, what’s your vitamin P for purpose every day? So maybe this dose of inspiration will be a little bit, you know, that vitamin that you take every day, you read one story to inspire you on a gray, tough day.

So, yeah, ripple effect, I guess. I’m hoping for. And do

Naji Gehchan: you know the last one I always ask, so I, I wanna ask it again. Spread love in organizations.

Jill Donahue: Oh, brilliant. Love it. As you know, you and I are on such a parallel path, Najee, and I am so, um, proud is the wrong word. It’s, I’m so impressed and grateful for the work that you’re doing, spreading love in organizations.

Um, and I, I just think it’s brilliant and so grateful that. You’re doing this work and so gratitude appreciation and, uh, yeah, keep going spread love and organizations.

Naji Gehchan: Oh, thank you so much. It means a lot and you’re definitely a big part of my journey and story as I’ve told you several times. Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?

Jill Donahue: I don’t know if I have wisdom. Um. I just encourage you, encourage people to, uh, don’t give up, you know, it takes effort to be focused on our purpose, but it’s well worth it. It is well worth it, but choose that every day and do what you need to do to choose that. Maybe this book, um, will be your first, uh, you know, drop in that ripple to see good things happen.

By the way, it’s free, right? We, I don’t think we’ve mentioned that. We want this book to spread, so we’ve made it a free ebook, so, um, yeah. Uh, maybe that’s my, my, uh, wisdom, as you say, but, uh, start somewhere with the, you know, keep that vitamin P going or start vitamin P, download the free ebook as a little place to start.

Naji Gehchan: I love it. Vitamin P. I will, I will add this and for sure, we will put the links to download the free book for, uh, for all our listeners, uh, and we’re eager to, uh, to see, read, hear those hundred stories. Thank you so much, Jill, for being with me again today. It’s just a great pleasure to talk

Jill Donahue: to you every single time.

And thank you. Think about the hundred people. You’ll see them soon in the book, but I have a huge thanks to them for being so vulnerable to be willing to expose their, their story, their journey to inspire others. They’re amazing folks. So big thanks to them. And thank you to you for hosting to you and Zena.

Thank you so much.

Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform

Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs